PAD Lay Siege On Government House, NBT TV Station

[animatic]

The difference being that in France the army is under the control of the president and answers to no one else.

I'm not sure this is different - the Thai army ultimately answers to the Thai head of state (which is the King, not the Prime Minister).

As does the British Army.

This is VERY interesting because this is THE point.

Are you British? Do you mean than, eventually, the army will obey to this old Lady called Elisabeth and NOT to the PM called Brown. I'm French so I do not know.

I'm not shocked that, in France, the President be the chief of the armies because he's elected, he's not only the "son of", but I'd worry if I was British: if Granny got a sunburn she could decide to invade Lichtenstein and the UK army would comply?

There are some differences in the constitutional monarchies involved here.

I seriously doubt Elisabeth II could just go and invade Lichtenstein, or even Cannes,

without full compliance from the government. Then again it also works the other

way too, to some extent. She signs off on a lot of things too.

Now if enough lords though Brown was going totaly OFF THE PLOT she

has some power to stop his actions. Englan has a a few PM and cabinet's change

because things in the street went pear shaped. Not too recently though, IMS.

But while England and Thailand are constitutional monarchies,

the similarities are not that deep. Each has a different constitution.

And englsnd has been laying to rest it's feudal ways for some time.

It seems the BIG discussion is set up.

From the Nation web site.

Samak asks Parliament president to hold special joint House-Senate meeting

Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej has asked the Parliament president to hold an urgent meeting of MPs and senators, senators were told Saturday.

Senate Speaker Prasopsuk Boondej told senators during a seminar in Hua Hin that Samak informed Parliament President Chai Chidchob that the prime minister wants to invoke Article 179 of the Constitution to hold a general debate on the problems stemmed from the protests by the People's Alliance for Democracy.

Samak reasoned in his letter dated Friday that the group of people had seized several government offices, causing unrest and situation seems to escalate.

As a result, the prime minster wants Parliament to hold an urgent meeting to discuss the situation and find a peaceful solution.

The Nation

[unomi]

Well I do dispute the arguement of vote buying. Even though it is a common theme among those who need to use something to rationalize their assertions that the government is illigitimate.

Do you know the contents of article 237 of the constitution? the same article that PPP wants to remove?

Dissolution of a political party if one of the executives was involved in vote buying.

Details of vote buying by PPP Parliament president:

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-07/...ent_8512158.htm

You realize that according to the Constitution Samak is now the head of a party that should be dissolved by law.

Rational enough for you?

[h90]

Hello

This is the first time i am writing a comment to this situation.

Many people complain about PAD trying to topple thge "democratically elected" government around Samak. Now, thing is, he was NOT "democratically" elected. Elected, yes. By the people, yes. But NOT "democratically", which would be when people vote for him because they like him or his political plans.

Nope. Samapk (respectively PPP respectively Thaksin who is behind them) PAID the people to vote for them. And for me, this is not "hearsay" - i was there when the PPP guys came 'round handing out 200 Baht to everyone promising to vote for them 5 days later. Plus the village headman (this happened in a small village outside Chiang Mai) made his announcement through the village P.A. system (loudspeaker towers) that "if you vote for PPP you will all have a better life". Surely, PPP had given him a considerable amount of money for this "mission".

Of course, almost the whole village voted for PPP, most of those people are farmers who couldn't be bothered by politics but 200 Baht feeds them for a week, THAT was what counted.

Now PAD's plan was to get rid of Thaksin for a number of reasons. Voila, with the coup, THAT got done, and PAD went silent. HOWEVER with this "democratic" election they got him right back! Silently in the background, but everyone knows that "PPP" is "TRT, Mark II". So they (PAD) got active again to get rid of them, essentially for a second time.

Already now, in anticipation of things to come, "TRT, Mark III" is founded and ready to become active. Thaksin's money is flowing, and if there is a new election, my bets are that either PPP (if still active) or the new "TRT, Mark III" will win THAT election, too. And again, 200 Baht will be paid for the farmers, and the loudspeakers will talk of the "better life to come for voters".

And again PAD will fight, and people on this board will complain about "how can they try to topple a democratically elected government".

Democratic, my @ss.

Best regards......

Thanh

But the time they can stay in office get shorter....more hard to get the investments back, the pressure on the Election Commission will get stronger. So the cards for TRT Mark III are not that good.

[pauls2979]

The difference being that in France the army is under the control of the president and answers to no one else.

I'm not sure this is different - the Thai army ultimately answers to the Thai head of state (which is the King, not the Prime Minister).

As does the British Army.

This is VERY interesting because this is THE point.

Are you British? Do you mean than, eventually, the army will obey to this old Lady called Elisabeth and NOT to the PM called Brown. I'm French so I do not know.

I'm not shocked that, in France, the President be the chief of the armies because he's elected, he's not only the "son of", but I'd worry if I was British: if Granny got a sunburn she could decide to invade Lichtenstein and the UK army would comply?

yes this is true , when you become an officer , you pledge your loyalty to the queen , not the government of the day

[Old Man River]

What you said has merit, but now let's talk about the real world as it relates to Thailand (this is a Thai forum after all). The last two elected governments have been thrown out (OK, the second one is on the way of being thrown out). The first one by the military and this one by the people. So, what kind of democracy is this? Perhaps a different one than we are used to and therefore one requiring a different structure until it develops further.

My "modest" proposal would help us get there. It forces education to become a priority while for the time being, mitigates the threat of power groups seeking to overthrow the next government and then the next government. The value of education gets elevated in the eyes of local village headman and heads of families as it creates a brand new incentive. If you can vote you can elect people that further your needs.

I realize the quality of education is a completely different issue, however, the more people get their minds around getting an education, they more they will learn about the type of education they should seek.

Nothing is perfect, but this elect a government - remove a government BS is getting old. Finding things wrong with proposals is fine, but come up with other solutions instead of saying this won't work and that won't work. What we have now doesn't work, that I can say for sure.

You are failing to understand the concept of democracy, and on top of that you are making some sweeping value judgements about the less educated.

If you keep the common man from voting, it is feudalism even if you dress it up like democracy. Fuedalism is the ball and chain keeping Thailand in this banana republic identity; when by now, it could be competing with progressive Asian nations.

The reason for this recent protest is that the big money Thais, can't accept they are equal in rights to the farmers, so they keep shaking the tree until someone that will look after their personal ambition ends up in power. It is not because less educated people choose badly. They are choosing very well because by their experience the TRT and the PPP have made some effort to consider what they need. Were the last two elected governments corrupt? yes of course, but they all have been corrupt, so the point is moot.

Put in a condition of education requirement to vote and you will ensure Fuedal policies and exploitation of the lower classes for another 50 years.

Thailand needs nothing more than lift it's self deluded head out of bronze age policies and start a massive education and integrity initiative. Wouldn't it be great if diligence and integrity were considered values here instead of face and geneology.

Oh, I forgot. There was also an election that the courts dissolved. One by the courts, one by the military and one by the people. That is strike three. Time for a change.

"Time For Change"!???

Meanwhile the reports are comming in from Isan via "Jungle Telegraph"(Relations in Law) That People are paid 500baht a day and given free Bus Journey to Bangkok.To "Enjoy" The Free Festival Hosted and Sponsored by the PAD!(Political Attention Deficient)(Later "Religious Chasms will split these "Waco" Texas style PAD leaders up in the south!Bring on the "Cool Aid"!F..ing Sad For Beautiful LOS and the "Majority" of Peace Loving,Hard working,VOTING Thai Peoples!My Heart is Heavy for Bangkok and all the small enterprise focused on Tourism!

very improbable....most probably another lie

I do want to say I am pleasantly surprised by so much thoughtful analyzes. I really expected the immature rants and raves, but instead this was a very mature discussion.

OK, it is so easy to knock down someone else's ideas, so I challenge you all. Democracy as we know it is isn't working here. If tying education to voting privileges is not the solution, then what is the solution?

I do want to add that I bounced my idea off of someone today who is very, very senior in Thai society (yes, one of those elites you read about), and his take was that although education is extremely important, it isn't the answer to keep corrupt politicians from gaining control.

[Crushdepth]

This is VERY interesting because this is THE point.

Are you British? Do you mean than, eventually, the army will obey to this old Lady called Elisabeth and NOT to the PM called Brown. I'm French so I do not know.

I'm not shocked that, in France, the President be the chief of the armies because he's elected, he's not only the "son of", but I'd worry if I was British: if Granny got a sunburn she could decide to invade Lichtenstein and the UK army would comply?

No, I'm from Australia but the set up is similar. What I mean is that in ordinary circumstances the army obeys the instructions of the government (eg. Brown). But in extreme circumstances (eg. government orders army to slaughter civilians) the Old Lady as Head of State has the power to stop it. But that power is understood to be a 'safety net' that would only be used in the most dire emergency.

[ando]

....

Should the PAD which is not even a political party be able to force an elected government out of office with a crowd of protesters that amount to only a fraction of one percent of total voters it could well represent the death of the democratic process in Thailand.

Right its not a party and the leaders once said they don't want to become one, but the PAD represents so far the people!

And voices their opinion, and anyone who whishes to air an opinion is welcome to do so!

Where is the "majority" of voters who "democratically" accepted bribes for their right to vote, why aren't they supporting their "democratically" elected government of do'gooder's ??

If one buys his votes, he buys paper, no voices, no people, that is what backfires so badly now on this government, instant karma, as buddhists they should have known better!, No?

One could equally ask the question of why PAD is not protesting in the distant rice fields of Issarn if it wants to overturn the popular vote up there. But the fact is that PADs core support base is in Bangkok as I am sure you well know.

Voting patterns have consistently shown that the party who offers the best deal to the poor gets elected. That trend can not be dismissed by allegations of vote buying alone. Not surprising really when you consider the gross inequities in Thai society. These trends will continue while such gross social inequity persists and the poor are able to vote under a democratic system. Such is the reason why PAD wants an appointed government rather than an elected one.

[animatic]

Well I do dispute the arguement of vote buying. Even though it is a common theme among those who need to use something to rationalize their assertions that the government is illigitimate.

Do you know the contents of article 237 of the constitution? the same article that PPP wants to remove?

Dissolution of a political party if one of the executives was involved in vote buying.

Details of vote buying by PPP Parliament president:

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-07/...ent_8512158.htm

You realize that according to the Constitution Samak is now the head of a party that should be dissolved by law.

Rational enough for you?

Yes tough love.

If enough parties get dissolved it's bound to SOMEDAY dawn on them

that institutionalized vote buying is NOT going to keep working.

PPP just lost a a controlling level member to JUST this law in the last 30 days.

Convicted.

Which means PPP and this cabinet iare just marking time till a court says

they are out of jobs and banned form politics upfront for 5 years.

A NEW party name is in place for whatever next level down PPP members are left standing.

~~Cynical or what?

And they are scared that ALL their controling clique will get x'd out

before they can change the law back to free for all election graft.

Never dawns on them to RISK just playing fair during a vote.

Better to CHANGE THE LAW back to freedom to buy votes.

[sriracha john]

Thai riot police prepare before clashing with the supporters of People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) inside the Government House in Bangkok August 29, 2008.

REUTERS

The PR value of the picture of the policeman pointing a rifle at a protestor at point blank range is very high

The rifle is there in the picture in the first place and I highly doubt the safety is on. There's no defending it by any stretch of the imagination.

another...

They had barrels pointing in all directions...

[onethailand]

I do want to add that I bounced my idea off of someone today who is very, very senior in Thai society (yes, one of those elites you read about), and his take was that although education is extremely important, it isn't the answer to keep corrupt politicians from gaining control.

Education is not the solution, be-all and end-all. It is the beginning of a solution for future generations. Without education, corruption will continue to prevail. Without education, many people will remain ill-equipped to become self-sufficient. And without education, you have the same situation which remains in place today - the only thing people learn today is to do as their told and follow their masters.

[Old Man River]

....

Should the PAD which is not even a political party be able to force an elected government out of office with a crowd of protesters that amount to only a fraction of one percent of total voters it could well represent the death of the democratic process in Thailand.

Right its not a party and the leaders once said they don't want to become one, but the PAD represents so far the people!

And voices their opinion, and anyone who whishes to air an opinion is welcome to do so!

Where is the "majority" of voters who "democratically" accepted bribes for their right to vote, why aren't they supporting their "democratically" elected government of do'gooder's ??

If one buys his votes, he buys paper, no voices, no people, that is what backfires so badly now on this government, instant karma, as buddhists they should have known better!, No?

Such is the reason why PAD wants an appointed government rather than an elected one.

I must have missed this. Please provide the link where it shows that the PAD wants an appointed government.

[pauls2979]

I do want to say I am pleasantly surprised by so much thoughtful analyzes. I really expected the immature rants and raves, but instead this was a very mature discussion.

OK, it is so easy to knock down someone else's ideas, so I challenge you all. Democracy as we know it is isn't working here. If tying education to voting privileges is not the solution, then what is the solution?

I do want to add that I bounced my idea off of someone today who is very, very senior in Thai society (yes, one of those elites you read about), and his take was that although education is extremely important, it isn't the answer to keep corrupt politicians from gaining control.

i think this country needs a new party similar to england's labour party of the 40s and 50s , for the people , run by the people,

one good the that has happened is , the cat is totally out of the bag now, and the Thai people are leaning very quickly who all these people really are now.

[animatic]

....

Should the PAD which is not even a political party be able to force an elected government out of office with a crowd of protesters that amount to only a fraction of one percent of total voters it could well represent the death of the democratic process in Thailand.

Right its not a party and the leaders once said they don't want to become one, but the PAD represents so far the people!

And voices their opinion, and anyone who whishes to air an opinion is welcome to do so!

Where is the "majority" of voters who "democratically" accepted bribes for their right to vote, why aren't they supporting their "democratically" elected government of do'gooder's ??

If one buys his votes, he buys paper, no voices, no people, that is what backfires so badly now on this government, instant karma, as buddhists they should have known better!, No?

One could equally ask the question of why PAD is not protesting in the distant rice fields of Issarn if it wants to overturn the popular vote up there. But the fact is that PADs core support base is in Bangkok as I am sure you well know.

Voting patterns have consistently shown that the party who offers the best deal to the poor gets elected. That trend can not be dismissed by allegations of vote buying alone. Not surprising really when you consider the gross inequities in Thai society. These trends will continue while such gross social inequity persists and the poor are able to vote under a democratic system. Such is the reason why PAD wants an appointed government rather than an elected one.

Well on this one I must note

PAD tries to go up there, but are met with bands of

PPP or TRT sympathetic thugs who violently beat them until they leave.

These bands actively prevent PAD from talking up there.

JUST TALKING is enough of a threat. Information control to control the populace.

EVERY time I have heard of a PAD trip up north it has ended this way.

As recently as this summer

And this is why PAD has guards with sticks. Self defense posture.

They want to be able to talk with out beatings.

Since they are now armed as such, the PPP sympathetic bands

now are not showing up like before. Cause and effect in both directions.

[ando]

What you said has merit, but now let's talk about the real world as it relates to Thailand (this is a Thai forum after all). The last two elected governments have been thrown out (OK, the second one is on the way of being thrown out). The first one by the military and this one by the people. So, what kind of democracy is this? Perhaps a different one than we are used to and therefore one requiring a different structure until it develops further.

My "modest" proposal would help us get there. It forces education to become a priority while for the time being, mitigates the threat of power groups seeking to overthrow the next government and then the next government. The value of education gets elevated in the eyes of local village headman and heads of families as it creates a brand new incentive. If you can vote you can elect people that further your needs.

I realize the quality of education is a completely different issue, however, the more people get their minds around getting an education, they more they will learn about the type of education they should seek.

Nothing is perfect, but this elect a government - remove a government BS is getting old. Finding things wrong with proposals is fine, but come up with other solutions instead of saying this won't work and that won't work. What we have now doesn't work, that I can say for sure.

You are failing to understand the concept of democracy, and on top of that you are making some sweeping value judgements about the less educated.

If you keep the common man from voting, it is feudalism even if you dress it up like democracy. Fuedalism is the ball and chain keeping Thailand in this banana republic identity; when by now, it could be competing with progressive Asian nations.

The reason for this recent protest is that the big money Thais, can't accept they are equal in rights to the farmers, so they keep shaking the tree until someone that will look after their personal ambition ends up in power. It is not because less educated people choose badly. They are choosing very well because by their experience the TRT and the PPP have made some effort to consider what they need. Were the last two elected governments corrupt? yes of course, but they all have been corrupt, so the point is moot.

Put in a condition of education requirement to vote and you will ensure Fuedal policies and exploitation of the lower classes for another 50 years.

Thailand needs nothing more than lift it's self deluded head out of bronze age policies and start a massive education and integrity initiative. Wouldn't it be great if diligence and integrity were considered values here instead of face and geneology.

Oh, I forgot. There was also an election that the courts dissolved. One by the courts, one by the military and one by the people. That is strike three. Time for a change.

"Time For Change"!???

Meanwhile the reports are comming in from Isan via "Jungle Telegraph"(Relations in Law) That People are paid 500baht a day and given free Bus Journey to Bangkok.To "Enjoy" The Free Festival Hosted and Sponsored by the PAD!(Political Attention Deficient)(Later "Religious Chasms will split these "Waco" Texas style PAD leaders up in the south!Bring on the "Cool Aid"!F..ing Sad For Beautiful LOS and the "Majority" of Peace Loving,Hard working,VOTING Thai Peoples!My Heart is Heavy for Bangkok and all the small enterprise focused on Tourism!

very improbable....most probably another lie

I do want to say I am pleasantly surprised by so much thoughtful analyzes. I really expected the immature rants and raves, but instead this was a very mature discussion.

OK, it is so easy to knock down someone else's ideas, so I challenge you all. Democracy as we know it is isn't working here. If tying education to voting privileges is not the solution, then what is the solution?

I do want to add that I bounced my idea off of someone today who is very, very senior in Thai society (yes, one of those elites you read about), and his take was that although education is extremely important, it isn't the answer to keep corrupt politicians from gaining control.

Its really pretty simple. Its called Democracy and social justice. And it does work, as it has worked in all advanced nations. There is an old feudal system backed by the powerful elite in Thailand trying to stop it, but that doesn't mean it cant or wont work in Thailand. Its just that Thailand is undergoing a transition at the moment from an old archaic system of total economic and political power by the elite class to one of a more democratic nature. And of course there is considerable resistance from those who stand to lose the most.

[sriracha john]

Yae ASTV the opium of the Minorities!(Arethey Chewing Beetle Nut or something while Glued to that crap?)

KURTGRUEN: My THAI WIFE translates EVERTHING those Thugs are saying! WAKE UP and SMELL THE COFFEE MAN!!!! Sondhi and Loonie Gang ONLY Want YOUR MONEY! They Despise You and ALL of Farang who aint "CHIN"! They DON"T want Democracy.THAT is "YOUR FARANG POISON".

I have heard Him and Other PAD Leaders speak and These quotes are QUOTES!

"Motherf...ing farang Dogs". "F..king Kwai Farang Come to Thailand and Think they can Force us to elect leaders to suit their pillaging of Thai Economy"( Kwai= Buffalo =stupid)"Stupid Isan Dogs Who Voted for This and the Previous Govt""If SamaK(yes the Elect Prime minister of this nation) comes To the South WE will Kill him" Quotes From PAD ASTV and Sondhi.

KURTGRUEN: If You support Xenophobic KNOWN criminals who Hate You and ALL You stand for and Talk OPENLY about it,

They WILL take Your Business,Land,Home and Right to Be Here when they are ruling! You/ We are screwed on that day!You as many others love to be an open book and talk TOO much about that which should be private.What stops THESE thugs Near to us From Popping up and Evicting You and Your Wife? (No Tabien Ban! No Tanot No Work Visa for The Coffe shop!That's Mine and I'm Taking it! Try going to the Police They'll just laugh!)PAD IS SICK BRAIN POISON!!!I wish You see that and Save Your Plight!

uhm, if you say so...

[ando]

Well on this one I must note

PAD tries to go up there, but are met with bands of

PPP or TRT sympathetic thugs who violently beat them until they leave.

These bands actively prevent PAD from talking up there.

JUST TALKING is enough of a threat. Information control to control the populace.

EVERY time I have heard of a PAD trip up north it has ended this way.

As recently as this summer

And this is why PAD has guards with sticks. Self defense posture.

They want to be able to talk with out beatings.

Since they are now armed as such, the PPP sympathetic bands

now are not showing up like before. Cause and effect in both directions.

Lets try to understand something important here. PAD is NOT a political party that can NOT offer the peasants of Issarn anything. PAD is a political activist group and when it goes into the North it can offer nothing. Yet it seeks to recruit supporters who will actively work to oppose those politicians who DO in fact offer some hope of a better life under a democratic system. Is it any wonder why the PAD is not welcome in the poorer communities up North.

[Old Man River]

I do want to add that I bounced my idea off of someone today who is very, very senior in Thai society (yes, one of those elites you read about), and his take was that although education is extremely important, it isn't the answer to keep corrupt politicians from gaining control.

Education is not the solution, be-all and end-all. It is the beginning of a solution for future generations. Without education, corruption will continue to prevail. Without education, many people will remain ill-equipped to become self-sufficient. And without education, you have the same situation which remains in place today - the only thing people learn today is to do as their told and follow their masters.

Actually, my "modest" proposal was seeking a compromise that may be acceptable to more than just some politicians as there are several power groups at play (I know you know this, but bear with me for awhile). There are many who do not want a repeat of Thaksin and his nominees. Tying an educational requirement to voting privileges would mean that a lot of the people who voted TRT/PPP would be ineligible to vote for several elections. This would satisfy some power groups and for several years, may well stabilize democracy in Thailand (even if it isn't the type of democracy we call democracy). Going forward, achieving a certain grade level would become very important to local village heads and heads of families, who right now couldn't care less. This would, create an upside that doesn't exist today.

Some have suggested (and I agree) that this would create a future problem for those that want to continue to control Thai society. They would have to cross that bridge when they get there, but from our perspective, is this really so bad?

[h90]

Well on this one I must note

PAD tries to go up there, but are met with bands of

PPP or TRT sympathetic thugs who violently beat them until they leave.

These bands actively prevent PAD from talking up there.

JUST TALKING is enough of a threat. Information control to control the populace.

EVERY time I have heard of a PAD trip up north it has ended this way.

As recently as this summer

And this is why PAD has guards with sticks. Self defense posture.

They want to be able to talk with out beatings.

Since they are now armed as such, the PPP sympathetic bands

now are not showing up like before. Cause and effect in both directions.

Lets try to understand something important here. PAD is NOT a political party that can NOT offer the peasants of Issarn anything. PAD is a political activist group and when it goes into the North it can offer nothing. Yet it seeks to recruit supporters who will actively work to oppose those politicians who DO in fact offer some hope of a better life under a democratic system. Is it any wonder why the PAD is not welcome in the poorer communities up North.

I never saw the PAD opposing the Democrats.

[brewsterbudgen]

Hello

This is the first time i am writing a comment to this situation.

Many people complain about PAD trying to topple thge "democratically elected" government around Samak. Now, thing is, he was NOT "democratically" elected. Elected, yes. By the people, yes. But NOT "democratically", which would be when people vote for him because they like him or his political plans.

Nope. Samapk (respectively PPP respectively Thaksin who is behind them) PAID the people to vote for them. And for me, this is not "hearsay" - i was there when the PPP guys came 'round handing out 200 Baht to everyone promising to vote for them 5 days later. Plus the village headman (this happened in a small village outside Chiang Mai) made his announcement through the village P.A. system (loudspeaker towers) that "if you vote for PPP you will all have a better life". Surely, PPP had given him a considerable amount of money for this "mission".

Of course, almost the whole village voted for PPP, most of those people are farmers who couldn't be bothered by politics but 200 Baht feeds them for a week, THAT was what counted.

Now PAD's plan was to get rid of Thaksin for a number of reasons. Voila, with the coup, THAT got done, and PAD went silent. HOWEVER with this "democratic" election they got him right back! Silently in the background, but everyone knows that "PPP" is "TRT, Mark II". So they (PAD) got active again to get rid of them, essentially for a second time.

Already now, in anticipation of things to come, "TRT, Mark III" is founded and ready to become active. Thaksin's money is flowing, and if there is a new election, my bets are that either PPP (if still active) or the new "TRT, Mark III" will win THAT election, too. And again, 200 Baht will be paid for the farmers, and the loudspeakers will talk of the "better life to come for voters".

And again PAD will fight, and people on this board will complain about "how can they try to topple a democratically elected government".

Democratic, my @ss.

Best regards......

Thanh

No. If the PPP is guilty of vote buying let the courts deal with it. It's not an excuse for mob rule. Are you saying that no one legitimately voted for the PPP?

[Crushdepth]

It's certainly no wonder why the government isn't welcome (and holds no seats) in the south. Bag, trucks and asphixiation...well I guess it got rid of those dam_n dirty protestors!

[Old Man River]

What you said has merit, but now let's talk about the real world as it relates to Thailand (this is a Thai forum after all). The last two elected governments have been thrown out (OK, the second one is on the way of being thrown out). The first one by the military and this one by the people. So, what kind of democracy is this? Perhaps a different one than we are used to and therefore one requiring a different structure until it develops further.

My "modest" proposal would help us get there. It forces education to become a priority while for the time being, mitigates the threat of power groups seeking to overthrow the next government and then the next government. The value of education gets elevated in the eyes of local village headman and heads of families as it creates a brand new incentive. If you can vote you can elect people that further your needs.

I realize the quality of education is a completely different issue, however, the more people get their minds around getting an education, they more they will learn about the type of education they should seek.

Nothing is perfect, but this elect a government - remove a government BS is getting old. Finding things wrong with proposals is fine, but come up with other solutions instead of saying this won't work and that won't work. What we have now doesn't work, that I can say for sure.

You are failing to understand the concept of democracy, and on top of that you are making some sweeping value judgements about the less educated.

If you keep the common man from voting, it is feudalism even if you dress it up like democracy. Fuedalism is the ball and chain keeping Thailand in this banana republic identity; when by now, it could be competing with progressive Asian nations.

The reason for this recent protest is that the big money Thais, can't accept they are equal in rights to the farmers, so they keep shaking the tree until someone that will look after their personal ambition ends up in power. It is not because less educated people choose badly. They are choosing very well because by their experience the TRT and the PPP have made some effort to consider what they need. Were the last two elected governments corrupt? yes of course, but they all have been corrupt, so the point is moot.

Put in a condition of education requirement to vote and you will ensure Fuedal policies and exploitation of the lower classes for another 50 years.

Thailand needs nothing more than lift it's self deluded head out of bronze age policies and start a massive education and integrity initiative. Wouldn't it be great if diligence and integrity were considered values here instead of face and geneology.

Oh, I forgot. There was also an election that the courts dissolved. One by the courts, one by the military and one by the people. That is strike three. Time for a change.

"Time For Change"!???

Meanwhile the reports are comming in from Isan via "Jungle Telegraph"(Relations in Law) That People are paid 500baht a day and given free Bus Journey to Bangkok.To "Enjoy" The Free Festival Hosted and Sponsored by the PAD!(Political Attention Deficient)(Later "Religious Chasms will split these "Waco" Texas style PAD leaders up in the south!Bring on the "Cool Aid"!F..ing Sad For Beautiful LOS and the "Majority" of Peace Loving,Hard working,VOTING Thai Peoples!My Heart is Heavy for Bangkok and all the small enterprise focused on Tourism!

very improbable....most probably another lie

I do want to say I am pleasantly surprised by so much thoughtful analyzes. I really expected the immature rants and raves, but instead this was a very mature discussion.

OK, it is so easy to knock down someone else's ideas, so I challenge you all. Democracy as we know it is isn't working here. If tying education to voting privileges is not the solution, then what is the solution?

I do want to add that I bounced my idea off of someone today who is very, very senior in Thai society (yes, one of those elites you read about), and his take was that although education is extremely important, it isn't the answer to keep corrupt politicians from gaining control.

Its really pretty simple. Its called Democracy and social justice. And it does work, as it has worked in all advanced nations. There is an old feudal system backed by the powerful elite in Thailand trying to stop it, but that doesn't mean it cant or wont work in Thailand. Its just that Thailand is undergoing a transition at the moment from an old archaic system of total economic and political power by the elite class to one of a more democratic nature. And of course there is considerable resistance from those who stand to lose the most.

Ando, Thailand is different from most other countries in that it has different power groups (think about it mate). Therefore, the development of democracy as we know it may well not evolve here as it has elsewhere. That doesn't mean I don't think democracy is possible in Thailand, but not in the form that we know it. A Thai solution is needed, and this is the land of compromise.

[popshirt]

Hello

This is the first time i am writing a comment to this situation.

Many people complain about PAD trying to topple thge "democratically elected" government around Samak. Now, thing is, he was NOT "democratically" elected. Elected, yes. By the people, yes. But NOT "democratically", which would be when people vote for him because they like him or his political plans.

Nope. Samapk (respectively PPP respectively Thaksin who is behind them) PAID the people to vote for them. And for me, this is not "hearsay" - i was there when the PPP guys came 'round handing out 200 Baht to everyone promising to vote for them 5 days later. Plus the village headman (this happened in a small village outside Chiang Mai) made his announcement through the village P.A. system (loudspeaker towers) that "if you vote for PPP you will all have a better life". Surely, PPP had given him a considerable amount of money for this "mission".

Of course, almost the whole village voted for PPP, most of those people are farmers who couldn't be bothered by politics but 200 Baht feeds them for a week, THAT was what counted.

Now PAD's plan was to get rid of Thaksin for a number of reasons. Voila, with the coup, THAT got done, and PAD went silent. HOWEVER with this "democratic" election they got him right back! Silently in the background, but everyone knows that "PPP" is "TRT, Mark II". So they (PAD) got active again to get rid of them, essentially for a second time.

Already now, in anticipation of things to come, "TRT, Mark III" is founded and ready to become active. Thaksin's money is flowing, and if there is a new election, my bets are that either PPP (if still active) or the new "TRT, Mark III" will win THAT election, too. And again, 200 Baht will be paid for the farmers, and the loudspeakers will talk of the "better life to come for voters".

And again PAD will fight, and people on this board will complain about "how can they try to topple a democratically elected government".

Democratic, my @ss.

Best regards......

Thanh

Thank you Thanh. We know that also happened in the rural villages near Pakchong where my family has a farm. Democratic, my @ass indeed!

[Tolley]

Hello

This is the first time i am writing a comment to this situation.

Many people complain about PAD trying to topple thge "democratically elected" government around Samak. Now, thing is, he was NOT "democratically" elected. Elected, yes. By the people, yes. But NOT "democratically", which would be when people vote for him because they like him or his political plans.

Nope. Samapk (respectively PPP respectively Thaksin who is behind them) PAID the people to vote for them. And for me, this is not "hearsay" - i was there when the PPP guys came 'round handing out 200 Baht to everyone promising to vote for them 5 days later. Plus the village headman (this happened in a small village outside Chiang Mai) made his announcement through the village P.A. system (loudspeaker towers) that "if you vote for PPP you will all have a better life". Surely, PPP had given him a considerable amount of money for this "mission".

Of course, almost the whole village voted for PPP, most of those people are farmers who couldn't be bothered by politics but 200 Baht feeds them for a week, THAT was what counted.

Now PAD's plan was to get rid of Thaksin for a number of reasons. Voila, with the coup, THAT got done, and PAD went silent. HOWEVER with this "democratic" election they got him right back! Silently in the background, but everyone knows that "PPP" is "TRT, Mark II". So they (PAD) got active again to get rid of them, essentially for a second time.

Already now, in anticipation of things to come, "TRT, Mark III" is founded and ready to become active. Thaksin's money is flowing, and if there is a new election, my bets are that either PPP (if still active) or the new "TRT, Mark III" will win THAT election, too. And again, 200 Baht will be paid for the farmers, and the loudspeakers will talk of the "better life to come for voters".

And again PAD will fight, and people on this board will complain about "how can they try to topple a democratically elected government".

Democratic, my @ss.

Best regards......

Thanh

No. If the PPP is guilty of vote buying let the courts deal with it. It's not an excuse for mob rule. Are you saying that no one legitimately voted for the PPP?

Funny you should mention vote buying because PAD were down in Pattaya the other day recruiting people to go up to Bangkok and join the demo. They were offering 400baht and free meals!

PAD don't really have a leg to stand on because what do think is going to happen if they dissolve parliament and call another election?

They will lose again that is what will happen.

Instead of carrying on like a bunch of pork chops they should be looking ahead to the next election and working out a strategy that gets them democratically elected.

Their current show of truculence is not winning them any new supporters and in fact is alienating some people. And of course destatbilising the country and costing the country a lot of lost revenue.

[HelterSkelter]

Thai riot police prepare before clashing with the supporters of People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) inside the Government House in Bangkok August 29, 2008.

REUTERS

The PR value of the picture of the policeman pointing a rifle at a protestor at point blank range is very high

The rifle is there in the picture in the first place and I highly doubt the safety is on. There's no defending it by any stretch of the imagination.

another...

They had barrels pointing in all directions...

The second Image Has Been Manipulated.If you look Carefully The angles of Eyesight are of 2 different Trajectories.Crowd/Police Suggesting that Photoshop has been used (or simular) To cut and join a foreground and background clip together.

The "Weapons" seen Here are Tear Gas Rifles and if fired at point 0 at a living being could prove fatal.That said One is usually trained to NEVER "Pump" a Teargas round into the chamber unless one is commited to Firing it right away.(Swedish and UK Police have helped arm and train the Police in Bangkok and nationally.Also Immigrations Police for bomb and drug detection at Airports)

Sondhi owns/presides over (manager.com)These days Digital technology makes it very difficult to rely upon the validity of a photograph.Video is still OK and Eyewitnesses are best.

[onethailand]

Tying an educational requirement to voting privileges would mean that a lot of the people who voted TRT/PPP would be ineligible to vote for several elections. This would satisfy some power groups and for several years, may well stabilize democracy in Thailand (even if it isn't the type of democracy we call democracy). Going forward, achieving a certain grade level would become very important to local village heads and heads of families, who right now couldn't care less. This would, create an upside that doesn't exist today.

Point taken - but could you imagine the uproar if a requirement like that were imposed in the US, requiring all voters have at least a high-school equivalency degree?

I see what you're getting at - keeps the current power cliques in place and largely removes the vote-buying issue - but one other thing that is unique to Thailand - people will just shrug their shoulders and go do something else - 200 baht every few years isn't going to cause an uneducated person to suddenly want to pass Mor 6.

And the other problem - the power brokers will simply go get one-time diplomas from some small little school in their province (probably even built and financed by said power brokers), give them to the people who vote for them with the premise that this vote shall be exercised at every subsequent election if they wish to keep that diploma (which entitles them to seek out better jobs or even become politicians themselves).

[Colonel_Mustard]

....

Should the PAD which is not even a political party be able to force an elected government out of office with a crowd of protesters that amount to only a fraction of one percent of total voters it could well represent the death of the democratic process in Thailand.

Right its not a party and the leaders once said they don't want to become one, but the PAD represents so far the people!

And voices their opinion, and anyone who whishes to air an opinion is welcome to do so!

Where is the "majority" of voters who "democratically" accepted bribes for their right to vote, why aren't they supporting their "democratically" elected government of do'gooder's ??

If one buys his votes, he buys paper, no voices, no people, that is what backfires so badly now on this government, instant karma, as buddhists they should have known better!, No?

Such is the reason why PAD wants an appointed government rather than an elected one.

I must have missed this. Please provide the link where it shows that the PAD wants an appointed government.

There's an article that gives the gist of it at http://www.asiasentinel.com/index.php?opti...1&Itemid=35 .

[sylviex]

(BangkokPost.com) – Anti-People’s Alliance for Democracy (PAD) set its main stage on Sanam Luang on Saturday as a venue to express their disagreement with the PAD.

About 200 members of Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship (DAAD) wearing red shirts built the stage on the venue to prepare to show their opposition against the anti-government group.

Interested people walking pass by sign their names in support of the group.

[HelterSkelter]

Hello

This is the first time i am writing a comment to this situation.

Many people complain about PAD trying to topple thge "democratically elected" government around Samak. Now, thing is, he was NOT "democratically" elected. Elected, yes. By the people, yes. But NOT "democratically", which would be when people vote for him because they like him or his political plans.

Nope. Samapk (respectively PPP respectively Thaksin who is behind them) PAID the people to vote for them. And for me, this is not "hearsay" - i was there when the PPP guys came 'round handing out 200 Baht to everyone promising to vote for them 5 days later. Plus the village headman (this happened in a small village outside Chiang Mai) made his announcement through the village P.A. system (loudspeaker towers) that "if you vote for PPP you will all have a better life". Surely, PPP had given him a considerable amount of money for this "mission".

Of course, almost the whole village voted for PPP, most of those people are farmers who couldn't be bothered by politics but 200 Baht feeds them for a week, THAT was what counted.

Now PAD's plan was to get rid of Thaksin for a number of reasons. Voila, with the coup, THAT got done, and PAD went silent. HOWEVER with this "democratic" election they got him right back! Silently in the background, but everyone knows that "PPP" is "TRT, Mark II". So they (PAD) got active again to get rid of them, essentially for a second time.

Already now, in anticipation of things to come, "TRT, Mark III" is founded and ready to become active. Thaksin's money is flowing, and if there is a new election, my bets are that either PPP (if still active) or the new "TRT, Mark III" will win THAT election, too. And again, 200 Baht will be paid for the farmers, and the loudspeakers will talk of the "better life to come for voters".

And again PAD will fight, and people on this board will complain about "how can they try to topple a democratically elected government".

Democratic, my @ss.

Best regards......

Thanh

No. If the PPP is guilty of vote buying let the courts deal with it. It's not an excuse for mob rule. Are you saying that no one legitimately voted for the PPP?

Funny you should mention vote buying because PAD were down in Pattaya the other day recruiting people to go up to Bangkok and join the demo. They were offering 400baht and free meals!

PAD don't really have a leg to stand on because what do think is going to happen if they dissolve parliament and call another election?

They will lose again that is what will happen.

Instead of carrying on like a bunch of pork chops they should be looking ahead to the next election and working out a strategy that gets them democratically elected.

Their current show of truculence is not winning them any new supporters and in fact is alienating some people. And of course destatbilising the country and costing the country a lot of lost revenue.

Wow Pattayans Only get 400 baht! Isaanians are getting offered 500 baht each by the PAD!

[DP25]

PAD don't really have a leg to stand on because what do think is going to happen if they dissolve parliament and call another election?

They will lose again that is what will happen.

No, they won't. 65% of Thais voted for anti Thaksin parties in the last election. The PPP only got a bit over 35% of the vote, the only reason they won more seats (yet still under 50% of them) was because the anti Thaksin vote was split among several parties. People won't be as stupid this time around, they will vote for a single party instead of splitting their votes among many.

[Moonrakers]

Hello

This is the first time i am writing a comment to this situation.

Many people complain about PAD trying to topple thge "democratically elected" government around Samak. Now, thing is, he was NOT "democratically" elected. Elected, yes. By the people, yes. But NOT "democratically", which would be when people vote for him because they like him or his political plans.

Nope. Samapk (respectively PPP respectively Thaksin who is behind them) PAID the people to vote for them. And for me, this is not "hearsay" - i was there when the PPP guys came 'round handing out 200 Baht to everyone promising to vote for them 5 days later. Plus the village headman (this happened in a small village outside Chiang Mai) made his announcement through the village P.A. system (loudspeaker towers) that "if you vote for PPP you will all have a better life". Surely, PPP had given him a considerable amount of money for this "mission".

Of course, almost the whole village voted for PPP, most of those people are farmers who couldn't be bothered by politics but 200 Baht feeds them for a week, THAT was what counted.

Now PAD's plan was to get rid of Thaksin for a number of reasons. Voila, with the coup, THAT got done, and PAD went silent. HOWEVER with this "democratic" election they got him right back! Silently in the background, but everyone knows that "PPP" is "TRT, Mark II". So they (PAD) got active again to get rid of them, essentially for a second time.

Already now, in anticipation of things to come, "TRT, Mark III" is founded and ready to become active. Thaksin's money is flowing, and if there is a new election, my bets are that either PPP (if still active) or the new "TRT, Mark III" will win THAT election, too. And again, 200 Baht will be paid for the farmers, and the loudspeakers will talk of the "better life to come for voters".

And again PAD will fight, and people on this board will complain about "how can they try to topple a democratically elected government".

Democratic, my @ss.

Best regards......

Thanh

No. If the PPP is guilty of vote buying let the courts deal with it. It's not an excuse for mob rule. Are you saying that no one legitimately voted for the PPP?

Funny you should mention vote buying because PAD were down in Pattaya the other day recruiting people to go up to Bangkok and join the demo. They were offering 400baht and free meals!

PAD don't really have a leg to stand on because what do think is going to happen if they dissolve parliament and call another election?

They will lose again that is what will happen.

Instead of carrying on like a bunch of pork chops they should be looking ahead to the next election and working out a strategy that gets them democratically elected.

Their current show of truculence is not winning them any new supporters and in fact is alienating some people. And of course destatbilising the country and costing the country a lot of lost revenue.

HOW MANY TIMES does it need saying on here that the PAD is NOT, and has NO intention of being a political party?