Animal Armageddon In Kpn Tonight

[elfe]

Rounding up strays and humanely putting them down may cost a few Baht, but I think the population who have allowed the situation to become so out of hand, and in many instances have contributed to it, should have the decency to not baulk at paying that price.

what you say has nothing to do with decency, so what does that change? let all be as it is, let the dogs multiply and be a nuisance and also danger to most people and themselves, and then once in a while round them up and kill them? this is horror too. and many dogs and cats which are someones 'pets' will be amongst them.

the people have to see that they have to neuter their animals to prevent strays and horror for the offspring. most reason is the careless attitude of people who love to have cute babies of their animals and then give up responsibility.

[Sir Burr]

Well, your attitude is all very well and good, but, finger-pointing doesn't fix the problem.

Neutering doesn't work, so, what's your practical solution to this problem of strays?

Many of these dogs are feral. Fighting amongst themselves and growing into packs which are a danger to people and real pets.

The only solution I see, distasteful as it is, is culling.

PS. You're argument that cattle, sheep and pigs are bred for food and dogs for pets and work doesn't hold water.

Africans used to be bred for certain physical attributes that would make them valuable slaves.

An animal life is an animal life. Also, pigs are just as intelligent as dogs, so, that argument doesn't work, either.

Edited September 14, 2008 by Sir Burr

[OlRedEyes]

Rounding up strays and humanely putting them down may cost a few Baht, but I think the population who have allowed the situation to become so out of hand, and in many instances have contributed to it, should have the decency to not baulk at paying that price.

what you say has nothing to do with decency, so what does that change? let all be as it is, let the dogs multiply and be a nuisance and also danger to most people and themselves, and then once in a while round them up and kill them? this is horror too. and many dogs and cats which are someones 'pets' will be amongst them.

the people have to see that they have to neuter their animals to prevent strays and horror for the offspring. most reason is the careless attitude of people who love to have cute babies of their animals and then give up responsibility.

Where did I say, infer or thought that. Don't let you're love of cuteness get the better of you.

Of course there should be an ongoing education programme.

Problem with all of this is, TiT. So the poisonings will be the solution.

What do you want, just to leave them roaming and multiplying? Nurturing strays don't work here. It's a fantasy.

[elfe]

fighting amongst themselves and growing into packs is nature of all dogs. the pets we keep, usually only single dogs, are not in their natural environment, thus they build pack with the people/family. and then they would fight most dogs they meet. so these dogs are not different from others by nature.

it is the way they have to lead their lives and by that they are a danger and nuisance to people.

neutering does help. but i'm afraid as long there is no law and enforcement of this, it will just always be a drop in the bucket. as too many dogs are getting away not being spayed.

from scad website: In optimum breeding conditions, one female dog and her offspring can produce up to 67,000 puppies in six years.

so i think a real impact can only be made if the population understands that offspring has to be avoided by any means (spaying) and any dog running around still with his balls intact should have consequences for the owner. this sounds a bit over the top and not possible to be put in place, but in the long run it will be the only way to keep the dogs from multiplying. it takes more effort and more education for the humans but it is humane and not heartbreaking like the suffering of the unwanted animals.

a vet clinic should be set up from animal organizations or others which only spays/neuters animals for a very small (affordable) fee or for free. and maybe also treats emergencies. it might be success if a small bonus, like maybe 100 bt, is paid to locals for every intact dog they bring in for spaying. there are many ways to do something about it in a humane way.

also education programms in schools (which are successfully held in other parts of thailand already) about how to treat pets and animals and respect them etc.

it is costy, but pictures of what is happening will arouse attention and will lead to help. and help can be effective as with these animals no profit is made (as in china eg).

you won't erase all streetdogs by that in a short time but the situation will much improve over time. it will never finish because people always will bring new intact dogs, but a law that free roaming dogs have to be spayed or caught for that, might be in place.

phuket is fighting the stray problem at the moment, first with cullings which aroused lots of protest, now with pet chipping (and neuter), to be able to identify them.

[Jose]

Neutering does work, incredibly well, and today's Koh Pha-Ngan is a perfect example of its effectiveness. Years ago before PAC arrived here, KPG was overrun by packs of malnourished and sick animals. PAC takes in strays at their (considerable) cost, and does its best with their very limited resources (at least until they got fire-bombed).

The latest cullings have little to do with any imaginary k9 overpopulation problem, and a lot to do with local politics and money.

I would suggest opinionated posters come and live in KPG before offering their 2c's worth based on a total lack of knowledge about our local problems.

Elfe, unfortunately I cannot take on more responsibilities (more dogs), as I'm fighting my own battles with the local ignorant monkeys. I've tried giving the sick pup some milk, but I'm afraid she's too far gone. If I see her again today in a worse state, I'll put aside the sickening feelings and consider euthanasia.

If it's any consolation, I've saved two beautiful dogs (one is an amazingly clever and loving neutered female 2yo Alsatian looking for a home) by kenneling them at the Thongsala pet shop for three days.

Edited September 14, 2008 by Jose

[elfe]

actually i offered to take in the pup.

good luck!

[Gatorade]

Well, your attitude is all very well and good, but, finger-pointing doesn't fix the problem.

Neutering doesn't work, so, what's your practical solution to this problem of strays?

Many of these dogs are feral. Fighting amongst themselves and growing into packs which are a danger to people and real pets.

The only solution I see, distasteful as it is, is culling.

PS. You're argument that cattle, sheep and pigs are bred for food and dogs for pets and work doesn't hold water.

Africans used to be bred for certain physical attributes that would make them valuable slaves.

An animal life is an animal life. Also, pigs are just as intelligent as dogs, so, that argument doesn't work, either.

People who are actually involved with, and looking after stray dogs would not agree with you that neutering does not work.

It is a fallacious statement not based on any facts at all. If you have any evidence to the contrary why not produce it?

The practical solution is neutering and also bringing this barbaric practice to the attention of people from countries who do care. (The TAT might sit up and take notice then).

How would you propose that a non-distasteful culling is carried out? Or are you happy with this situation?

Bringing slaves into the debate is ridiculous. Education, leading to law changes put an end to their plight as well.

P.S.

Plenty of people looking for others to fix the problem, I wonder if you would actually help/participate in a mass execution of

animals whose only crime was to trust humans.

[Sir Burr]

I have explained in a previous post why neutering doesn't work. i have seen it with my own eyes. The neutered dog's territory gets taken over by more aggresssive dogs that still have their nuts.

If neutering works, why does Phuket have more stray dogs than ever before, even though the organizations that perform the neutering have been here for many years?

I have already said that I don't favour poisoning, but, would prefer a more humane way of culling. eg. drugs in the food that put them to sleep. I am in favour of culling though. It seems to be the only solution to a problem that needs to be fixed NOW, not, five years down the road.

As for the slave example, it was just as specious as the argument it was debunking, that because an animal is bred for a purpose then that animals life is less valuable.

[Jose]

I am in favour of culling though.

Count me in - I'm all for it too. But I would direct this solution at a different species, the real source of this problem.

Destruction and overpopulation of any species is generally a symptom of bigger problems, mostly gross imbalances caused by humans.

[elfe]

people like you just don't get it. it is nothing to do that there are other animals culled as well, for whatever reason. there are many miseries and bad things in the world, with referring to them as happening also you don't make any point.

there is no such drug which will just put the animal 'to sleep' by eating it. it is always suffering a horrible death. real putting to sleep takes a bit more.

and is also not cheap. who gives you the right to just kill this animal and first watch it grow and reproduce without taking action or pity. what did they do to you to start a cruel fight against them. they are only there because we did not prevent it in the first place.

yes, round them up, shelter them for the time until spayed and then release them. to be quicker, you can start with only females first.

killing animals like that will not end in a change of the situation, just for a short time and will not do anything in peoples heads. just make this planet even more cruel and selfish.

[girlx]

Went to Thongsala 3 & 5am Sat with camera in hand with the intention to post some pics of the aftermath, but could not find any animals on the streets at all, dead or alive.

Yesterday evening I found a distraught older Thai woman near the Post Office, whose very well-liked and gentle large 12yo dog had died around 8am that morning after a night of unimaginable suffering. She had taken her dying pup to the pet shop to try and help him, but unlike (still fire-gutted) PAC they were unable to do much to help him. And she had kept her pup indoors from Friday's killings, but had not counted on the culling resuming in the same area on the following night. The pet shop owner estimates that more dogs died in Thongsala on this second round of killings than on the previous night.

This poor sobbing woman then took me by the hand to the area behind the market, and the carnage I found there is well beyond my ability to put into words. A dead mother with four of her seven tiny pups also dead around her, one little survivor (for now) still walking around in a daze. Several other dead dogs (and one cat), some laying in pools of their own bloody vomit hemorrhaged from both ends. I could not bring myself to take a single pic - these gruesome photos would have been totally unsuitable for posting anyway.

To proponents of the argument that dogs are vermin and their population should be controlled by any means, I would ask them to witness the kind of terrible long-lingering suffering that these poor animals go through as their internal organs shut down slowly in the most painful way imaginable. There are other more humane ways to cull animals, albeit somewhat more expensive - i.e., the allocated budget for controlling k9 population in KPG would need to be diverted from self-interested pockets.

There is plenty of evidence to support the argument that the biggest vermin on this planet are homo sapiens, but only a psychopath would propose the kind of terribly painful and unnecessary extermination witnessed in KPG.

Homo sapiens — Latin for "wise human" or "knowing human" - more like "wisdom and knowledge without compassion". This cruelty to man's best friend suggests we still have some way to go...

what is wrong with these people? they can't put a suffering dog out of it's misery by euthanizing it but they are happy to poison huge groups of them at a time? it makes me so sick.

what is happening with PAC? is there no way to get them back up and running again?

I have explained in a previous post why neutering doesn't work. i have seen it with my own eyes. The neutered dog's territory gets taken over by more aggresssive dogs that still have their nuts.

what a bunch of crap. if all the males were neutered, no problems.

Edited September 14, 2008 by girlx

[Sir Burr]

Release them so that they can continue to cause traffic accidents, scare children and bite people.

Yeah, you're right......I just don't get it.

[ham]

what a bunch of crap. if all the males were neutered, no problems.

Cool very natural....kind of nazi thinking? Just neutere evrything and then, we let the dogs and other pets behind us, na girlx? Sometimes when reading such unreflected bs I just don't get it. It is an island here and what you want with all the pet's here. I have cats and dogs around me you know and sometimes I see some people bring young ones to the temple, out of mind (out of sight) the problem is solved? Realy? I don't like that they kill them that way, but who is taking care of them otherwise? YOU??? Everybody is crying for PAC..... It is a problem and it can not be solved so easy.

But "SirBurr" has a real argument (reason)! Thats a real good point too. And btw dog's in wilderness kill each other also with no sorry, when they having territory fights at the beaches (or anywhere if people don't interfere). But probably most people are to far away from nature. Most people seeing nature as a kind of disneyland?? ;-))

[girlx]

i can never understand your english ham so i don't know what you are getting at, but i am saying that rounding up all the strays and spaying/neutering them is a very effective and much more humane way of controlling the dog population. which like Jose said, was proven by the drop in problems once PAC got up and running.

i don't think there is any way to justify poisoning, not when you have seen numerous dogs suffer and die from it in person. and i for one remember putting a post on here months ago imploring that people who live on koh phangan do their part to help the animal population while they can- i did quite a bit myself when i was there. what exactly are you doing?

[sbk]

Inflammatory and abusive posts have been deleted. Some posters had better tone down their posts as well, insults and flaming are against forum rules and further such posts will result in action.

[lamai04]

there is no such drug which will just put the animal 'to sleep' by eating it. it is always suffering a horrible death. real putting to sleep takes a bit more. and is also not cheap.

yes, round them up, shelter them for the time until spayed and then release them. to be quicker, you can start with only females first.

In seems useless to neuter both male and female.

[Gatorade]

there is no such drug which will just put the animal 'to sleep' by eating it. it is always suffering a horrible death. real putting to sleep takes a bit more. and is also not cheap.

yes, round them up, shelter them for the time until spayed and then release them. to be quicker, you can start with only females first.

In seems useless to neuter both male and female.

You would be right if they had bonds such as "living together" Sadly, they have other partners.

[Jose]

Anyone know the story of that most famous Thai stray dog, Thongdaeng?

"The story of Thongdaeng is widely interpreted not just as a feel-good tale, but a parable to Thais on how they should behave." This lucky stray dog was saved by The King of Thailand, Bhumibol Adulyadej, who loves animals. His Majesty has even organized a foundation that deals with stray animal rescue.

In previous speeches, The King has suggested that one way to control the stray dog population was for authorities to organize a campaign to encourage animal lovers to adopt indigenous Thai dogs and crossbreeds, which form the majority of stray dogs in Thailand.

"The monarch made it abundantly clear in his book that if his favourite dog, Thongdaeng, an offspring of a stray dog, could be raised and trained to become a well-behaved dog, many other stray dogs could also make good companions."

If nothing else, out of respect for Thailand's King and his people, all life in Thailand should be respected.

[girlx]

maybe we should get seville to put that on one of her signs around the island.

[seville]

maybe we should get seville to put that on one of her signs around the island.

Sorry to hear about the poisoning again, but Green Phangan will not be adding anything about the Stray Animal situation. Supporting PAC is by far the best thing we can do so give what you can. And if you can get an animal to Samui to get fixed even better. They have more vets, time and money especially now to help out the four legged ones.

[Samuikitten]

This is beyond horrible! What is wrong with people? I cannot believe that some of the people on this forum accept, and are for this?! Do you not realize the pain & suffering involved here?! Poisoning an animal is anything but a sudden death. The agony can go on for hours while the internal organs shut down!!! And shooting them?! My God??!!!

We are supposed to be a superior race. Ok, so some of the Thai people don't fully grasp what they are doing and/or are just following orders, but come on! For us "Farangs" this should be totally unacceptable & intolerable! If this were to happen in any of our western countries, would there be consequences?! dam_n right there would be!!! We are intelligent, there are other means to control a stray dog & cat population, it just takes some effort. For those of you that complain about the amount of stray dogs around Thailand & call this home, let me ask you this, are you doing anything about it?

Did anyone take any pictures at all? Picture speak 1000 words, especially in a case like this.

I have notified The Dog & Cat Rescue Center Koh Samui, hopefully they will be able to do something on their end. If nothing else, they can spread the word.

[sbk]

Frankly, people need to realize one thing, the only difference between Thailand and elsewhere lies in the fact that animals are killed in shelters in the west whereas here they are killed out in the open.

In 1997 Nearly 10 million animals were euthanized in shelters in the US (US Humane Society statistics), the increase of no-kill shelters has reduced that number to around 5 million per year, according to the No Kill Advocacy Center.

[elfe]

yes all these things happen in the world and it is just unbelievably sad. pets are a throwaway product as anything man uses. new ones produced everywhere others thrown away or euthanized.

we all can do something, if we just take a little action and commitment, at our doorstep, it would make a better place for animals. and your doorstep is koh phangan. looking away or saying other animals get killed too, elswhere it's happening too, etc won't change a thing. just trying to put ones mind at rest.

[girlx]

the only difference between Thailand and elsewhere lies in the fact that animals are killed in shelters in the west whereas here they are killed out in the open.

at least when they are euthanized it is quick and painless. i have no problem with that. the way the thais do it is barbaric.

[Samuikitten]

Frankly, people need to realize one thing, the only difference between Thailand and elsewhere lies in the fact that animals are killed in shelters in the west whereas here they are killed out in the open.

In 1997 Nearly 10 million animals were euthanized in shelters in the US (US Humane Society statistics), the increase of no-kill shelters has reduced that number to around 5 million per year, according to the No Kill Advocacy Center.

Yes, but if it HAS to be done, there are much better/painless ways to do this other than to poison/shoot them. We can stop this. We should stop this.

[Gatorade]

Frankly, people need to realize one thing, the only difference between Thailand and elsewhere lies in the fact that animals are killed in shelters in the west whereas here they are killed out in the open.

In 1997 Nearly 10 million animals were euthanized in shelters in the US (US Humane Society statistics), the increase of no-kill shelters has reduced that number to around 5 million per year, according to the No Kill Advocacy Center.

It's all very well to quote numbers of euthanised animals killed elsewhere but this in no way mitigates the barbaric actions carried out on the island where you live.

The only way to stop this, is to publicise this cruelty as much as possible. There will be a lot of self serving interests who will oppose this but in my opinion this is the only way to go.

[t.s]

i can never understand your english ham so i don't know what you are getting at, but i am saying that rounding up all the strays and spaying/neutering them is a very effective and much more humane way of controlling the dog population. which like Jose said, was proven by the drop in problems once PAC got up and running.

i don't think there is any way to justify poisoning, not when you have seen numerous dogs suffer and die from it in person. and i for one remember putting a post on here months ago imploring that people who live on koh phangan do their part to help the animal population while they can- i did quite a bit myself when i was there. what exactly are you doing?

what happened to your dog girlx? did you leave it behind or is it in bkk safe and sound?

[girlx]

my dog is living with an israeli family in thong nai pan

[ham]

............. My God??!!!

We are supposed to be a superior race. ...............

I guess you realy belive this????

[Sir Burr]

How about Death by Chocolate?

Don't dogs die if you give them chocolate?

How about meat laced with valium?

Once they are unconscious, they can then be killed painlessly with a blow to the head.