State Of Emergency In Bangkok Lifted

[Meerkat]

If a reporter has to go up on stage to ask questions, in front of jeering and booing protesters of whom at least some killed one of their political foes, he or she will obviously feel intimidated. Such intimidation automatically represses said journalist's ability to do his or her job properly.

Given Sondhi's background in the media; given his legitimate frustration and anger at Thaksin's attempts to control the media, this makes such actions even more hypocritical. The reporters in this instance should be applauded for refusing to bow to their demands (and it's not often I feel moved to praise the Thai press.)

[animatic]

Reporters boycott PAD's press briefing

Government House reporters on Tuesday refused to bow to the People's Alliance for Democracy leaders' demand for them to pose questions on rally stage, citing personal safety and possible pressure from the PAD supporters.

Chamlong Srimuang, a leader of the PAD said on stage Tuesday that the PAD's five leaders would give their daily press conference on the PAD rally stage from 10-10.30am, instead of at the press room of the Government House.

If reporters have any questions, they can ask them on the stage and microphones are made available for reporters, he said.

He reasoned that the PAD protesters could get information about what their leaders said immediately without having to wait to read on the newspapers on the next day.

However reporters opposed the change, saying they may not be able to freely ask any question since they would be among PAD supporters who may get upset if reporters asked questions which they did not like.

Besides the PAD can broadcast the press conference through ASTV, the reporters cited.

Chamlong denied that the move put pressure on reporters, saying he guaranteed safety for reporters. He added that it was common and normal that the PAD leaders had verbal clashes with reporters during press conference.

None of reporters asked any question after Chamlong invited them for queries. The reporter left the rally with boos and jeers from the PAD supporters.

Government House beat reporters believed the PAD changes its press conference method because the PAD leaders failed to identify their ultimate goal and objectives in their sit-in protest.

-Nation 16/09

I dont blame them.... Getting clubbed to death by PAD sheep for asking the wrong questions.

No chance,

the printed press hate TV since they can't compete in short form news reporting.

they were as worried about being a day late since their 'SCOUPS' were now broadcast live,

Old news then good for wrapping fish.

[hammered]

If a reporter has to go up on stage to ask questions, in front of jeering and booing protesters of whom at least some killed one of their political foes, he or she will obviously feel intimidated. Such intimidation automatically represses said journalist's ability to do his or her job properly.

Given Sondhi's background in the media; given his legitimate frustration and anger at Thaksin's attempts to control the media, this makes such actions even more hypocritical. The reporters in this instance should be applauded for refusing to bow to their demands (and it's not often I feel moved to praise the Thai press.)

I see the NBT workers have been protesting about being used as politcal tools too. Probably not a bad thing that media workers look at their own role in whichever side they are reporting. I guess those of the media refusing to go on the PAD stage at least werent pressured by their employers to take politcal lines whereas NBT workers seem to face a more insidious problem of their employer forcing them into an unwanted poltical role.

However good to see such questions raised today

[Gumballl]

There's nothing like ready about old news. Thanks guys for bringing the "State of Emergency" nonsense to the forefront of the forum.

Get over it! Please I beg you. There is no point in discussing foreign politics (that is, Thai politics) if you are a foreigner. You might as well discuss the rationale for placing toilet paper on the dining table at a Thai restaurant with the uneducated owner.

Ho Hum... I'm bored out of my mind reading about football clubs, misappropriation of state funds, graft, and dead PAD people. So what!!!!!

[permanent_disorder]

but I would have chosen 'Karl Popper taught me'.

Easy enough to do.

In my opinion, the greatest scandal of philosophy is that,

while all around us the world of nature perishes - and not the world of nature alone -

philosophers continue to talk, sometimes cleverly and sometimes not, about the question of whether this world exists. They get involved in scholasticism, in linguistic puzzles such as, for example, whether or not there are differences between 'being' and 'existing'. (Popper, 1975)

....

now you tease me on my poor english skills.

and i am not asking you if this is your paper, but why is everything written in 1. 2. 3.... points?

and i am not starting to quote other papers.

and your conclusio is partly right, but we still can consider Poppers idea of the open society and for sure a definition of "new politics" as the closed society.

did i say that is my point of view? yes. did i say period? no.

Popper point on democracy is "The ability to vote a bad government out of office is enough. " you correct errors that way. democracy is a evolutionary process. with the error control elections you don't walk down a dead-end street. you take small steps and check if it's right or wrong.

for myself, as a voter, i did take part only one time inmylife in a election. that was in my first youth and before i did known anything about Popper. in that election you could vote for somekind of peoples union of all parts of the society, a unity and all, really all candidates got usually 99,89% yes votes. i did spoil my ballot, the only way to say No. later history came, things changed, for a short period i was part of a political organisation but did never take part in any election again.

ahh, okay i sat in a election office, counted the votes but didn't gave my vote in.

Carl Schmitt was also on offer, maybe that fits you more. google on him. it is interesting, ignore the labels others put on him.

As William Bartley has put it,

we never know what we are saying, as our ideas have consequences of which we are not aware

and? who doubt that, that there is doubt.

my last link was to an youtube video

Popper about what he called "the significant" - Socrates realisation "i know that i know nothing" in Poppers interpretation.

[permanent_disorder]

Reporters boycott PAD's press briefing

Government House reporters on Tuesday refused to bow to the People's Alliance for Democracy leaders' demand for them to pose questions on rally stage, citing personal safety and possible pressure from the PAD supporters.

geez, is The Nation. what for a kind of crap newspaper and journalism. facepalm

WHO are those "reporters"? TV, newspaper? which TV station, which newspaper? stupid online journalism with a lot of left outs.

but wouldn't be the first time that PAD cult brownyellowshirts became hostile to the press

[cmsally]

My husband was watching ASTV last night and said that Sondhi was publically humiliating female journalists with some rude comments, also singling them out in front of the crowd. Hardly surprising then that journalists wouldn't turn up today after that.

[h90]

maybe moderator can rename that topic in "latest news about Nazis in Germany" and move it to the German section or remind some to stay on topic.

[blaze]

maybe moderator can rename that topic in "latest news about Nazis in Germany" and move it to the German section or remind some to stay on topic.

Well I don't think that we need that particular thread- but really- there should be a thread to discuss PAD ideology- because it is going to be discussed -with or without thaivisa participation- and yes- historical precedents for democracies surrendering elected governments for appointed ones are going to be examined for relevance.

Such a thread might include 'discussion' about the historical context of the ideology- social and economic implications of such an ideology- support for the ideology among the faithful--- etc etc- but you are right- this thread is not the place.

[Bangyai]

I'll be the one in the black "Hoffa-Baldwin-Zimmerman" Teamster shirt

...specially unions like the teamsters and union leaders like hoffa and their history and dirty wrong doings should make anybody look twice if they read about unions involvement in situations like the current one.

And I suppose a Carlos the Jackel T-Shirt would be better?

Ya know glorify someone who has done so much good for the world.

did i talk in every third post about how proud i am of carlos the jackal? did grünkurt talk all the time about those unions?

i want to know what's up with those PAD Cult unions. are i am not allowed to ask? do you know more about this thai unions?

we have a topic here: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Pad-Labour-Unions-t211062.html new input is welome.

1. You got the wrong Hoffa, which shows that you know little or nothing about todays Teamsters

2. My talk about Unions was in response to Thaksin/TRT/PPP groupies inferring that the PAD is elitist. Todays Union movement is not elitist and the Thai Unions are in support of the PAD, so my mention of the unions supporting the PAD was rellevent to the thread.

3. Even though, I have no problem with someone having an opinion different from mine and love to discuss issues from all sides, I find your behavior in these forums quite rude and will probably just start ignoring you here.

4. If you really want to learn more about Unions, as you claim, go to labour college or google for the information. I choose to spend my time talking to people who I think are openminded.

Someone also mentioned that there are a lot of women at the PAD rally. One of the reason, I think is, that ASTV has many public service announcements, calling for equality for women. The also have many against Child Labour, Drug Abuse, family violence, etc. They had a really good one the other day, about a little boy, making shoes in a sweatshop, while at the same time showing a little boy playing with his friends in the West. They had another one about a woman trying to clean the floor, while the rest of the family sat and watched TV and then later showed a "new model", of everyone having fun helping together.

ASTV is owned by Sondhi and as long as he keeps playing such announcements on his station, he isn't such a bad guy in my books.

Anyways,

Have a good night everyone

Let's hope it will be a peaceful one again

With respects, do you know anything at all about Sondhi other than he owns ASTV. Have you ever bothered to look into his previous history in Thai politics and big business ? PLEASE, for your own good at least, you should check out his profile on Wikipedia and other sites that will inform you as to what kind of person he really is. This man CAN NOT be trusted !! He is a thoroughly nasty piece of work. To be honest, I can't see how anyone who claims to be a PAD supporter can , with a clear conscience say that he ' isn't such a bad guy ' . Really, if you didn't like Taksin or Samak then allowing this awful man to play the pied piper is totally insane !!

[animatic]

but I would have chosen 'Karl Popper taught me'.

note; the edited out sections of the original post...

Easy enough to do.

In my opinion, the greatest scandal of philosophy is that,

while all around us the world of nature perishes - and not the world of nature alone -

philosophers continue to talk, sometimes cleverly and sometimes not, about the question of whether this world exists. They get involved in scholasticism, in linguistic puzzles such as, for example, whether or not there are

differences between 'being' and 'existing'. (Popper, 1975)

....

now you tease me on my poor english skills.

and i am not asking you if this is your paper, but why is everything written in 1. 2. 3.... points?

and i am not starting to quote other papers.

and your conclusio is partly right, but we still can consider Poppers idea of the open society and for sure a definition of "new politics" as the closed society.

did i say that is my point of view? yes. did i say period? no.

Popper point on democracy is "The ability to vote a bad government out of office is enough. " you correct errors that way. democracy is a evolutionary process. with the error control elections you don't walk down a dead-end street. you take small steps and check if it's right or wrong.

for myself, as a voter, i did take part only one time inmylife in a election. that was in my first youth and before i did known anything about Popper. in that election you could vote for somekind of peoples union of all parts of the society, a unity and all, really all candidates got usually 99,89% yes votes. i did spoil my ballot, the only way to say No. later history came, things changed, for a short period i was part of a political organisation but did never take part in any election again.

ahh, okay i sat in a election office, counted the votes but didn't gave my vote in.

Carl Schmitt was also on offer, maybe that fits you more. google on him. it is interesting, ignore the labels others put on him.

As William Bartley has put it,

we never know what we are saying, as our ideas have consequences of which we are not aware

I did note a correction was needed,

and then attributed that to you being pressed for time,

you edited that out.

Of course you go way beyond teasing as you attack my views. On a regular basis.

I said 'easy enough done' at your saying find a picture of Popper, I did, easy enough.

As well as then looked closer at Popper in relation to your continuous line of thought.

I found definite dichotomies. And thought to quote your original source reference Popper in rebuttle.

This is very important as it also explains why we can have limited free will, and thus live as moral creatures creating better futures for ourselves and our society (a very important thing). We should also emphasize that our free will is limited by this necessary connection of matter. We do not have the freedom to defy gravity and make ourselves float upwards, but within the constraints of necessary connection there are still many possible futures. We can choose to read this, or we can decide to stop reading it. Both are possible futures that obey the laws of physics and the necessary connections between things. Thus Spinoza is both right and wrong when he writes;

Spinoza -

There is no mind absolute or free will, but the mind is determined for willing this or that by a cause which is determined in its turn by another cause, and this one again by another, and so on to infinity. There is no mind absolute or free will, but the mind is determined for willing this or that by a cause which is determined in its turn by another cause, and this one again by another, and so on to infinity. (Spinoza, 1673)

His error was to not understand how lack of pre-determined knowledge in an infinite though necessarily connected system causes chance and limited free will. This is explained in more detail below.

Geoff Haselhurst

In other words all the actions of those talking in Bangkok are all interactive and like the butterfly wing in Bolivia causing a tidal wave in Sumatra, little things interact to create a new whole. Such that another butterfly in Calcuta

could have conteracted that 1st insects energies. In the end..... BALANCE for a time.

So if PAD tried to talk from one side and PPP tries to talk from another and Anupong does nothing,

there is a countervailing equallibrium until one side acts again. There is a necessary juxtaposing of ideas to

counter balance another side's ideas. NEITHER side really wants to reach their extreme potential position,

but push or pull they must to reach stasis as the situation is in constant flux.

So when we blythly say, STIFFLE one side we don't like them, it throws off the balance

and CAN lead to extremes of action, not extremes of thought, THERE IN lies the greater danger.

Samak's action vis a vis the constitutional chagnges caused and equally disproportionate, but logical action

on the part of PAD who had just been in relaltive stasis in one location. So it was cause and effect,

Samak's butterfly caused even greater commotion than it even imagined.

Ongoing as Samak proved to be the Bull in the China shop and created HUGE waves around him,

it logically created even greater extremes of opposing though, but surprising restraint in action

from the opposing side. Some call it extreme, but in relation to the provovcation

and it's potential for social disaster, actual rather restrained

If those un-named reporters didn't want to ask questions on stage then they were wimps,

and don't deserve a good 1st person story. Compare their qualms vs those that regularly

go into REAL war zones to report. I think PAD leaders being willing to get asked any question

on TV in front of all and sundry is not exactly demanding the press kow tow,

but just stand up and ask their questions like men and get their answers.

And remember PAD doesn't know the question, they must ALSO speak extemporaniously

right then and there.

So we have many armchair philosophers here expounding on how bad

the players in out Thai drama are. Except I see so little training in Applied Phillisophy

it becomes laughable. Philosophical Absolutes touted as the working 'end all be alls'

to this situation, and so little consideration of the money politics of power involved,

just a blind denigration of the 'street philosophers' points of view.

For surely if nothing else right or wrong good or bad criminals or heros,

PAD leaders ARE leading a philosophical discussion about the direction of their country.

And people are listening, in many case people who NEVER listened before.

And to add that the power hungrey opposition is actually taking

at least some thought about what is being said, how ever cursorily.

And THAT is more than several TV members will allow in their own philosphies'

The First Law of Philosophy

For every philosopher, there exists an equal and opposite philosopher.

The Second Law of Philosophy

They're both wrong.

Humanity is going to need a substantially new way of thinking if it is to survive!" (Albert Einstein)

The only way to ACHIEVE this new way is to discuss at critical junctures

what it means if we LOOK AT alternate paths to the same goal.

We can use Popper's thoughts on epistemology too in this political discussion phase..

The fact that most of the sources of our knowledge are traditional condemns anti-traditionalism as futile. But this fact must not be held to support a traditionalist attitude: every bit of our traditional knowledge (and even our inborn knowledge) is open to critical examination and may be overthrown. Nevertheless, without tradition, knowledge would be impossible.

Neither observation nor reason are authorities. Intellectual intuition and imagination are most important, but they are not reliable: they may show us things very clearly, and yet they may mislead us. They are indispensable as the main sources of our theories; but most of our theories are false anyway. The most important function of observation and reasoning, and even of intuition and imagination, is to help us in the critical examination of those bold conjectures which are the means by which we probe into the unknown.

Every solution of a problem raises new unsolved problems; the more so the deeper the original problem and the bolder its solution. The more we learn about the world, and the deeper our learning, the more conscious, specific, and articulate will be our knowledge of what we do not know, our knowledge of our ignorance. For this, indeed, is the main source of our ignorance -- the fact that our knowledge can be only finite, while our ignorance must necessarily be infinite.

A rebuttle to using Popperism as your source might be

While one may applaud Popper's conviction that real argument is preferable to the kind of suggestive observations that Wittgenstein and his followers used to throw out, Popper himself has debased the currency of argument by his indiscriminate employment of any argument that comes to hand.

Popper wants to say that it is possible to avoid assuming that the future will, or probably will, be like the past, and this is why he has claimed to have solved the problem of induction. We do not have to make the assumption, he tells us, if we proceed by formulating conjectures and attempting to falsify them.

Discovering Karl Popper

Peter Singer

So even Popper hedges his bets and doesn't assume ANY of his arguments are correct.

While many here throw out blanket condemnations from the high chair of absolute certitude,

and prove they know as little as most any one.

It's EASY to rail on from the catbird seat,

but not so easy to DO IT, when it is YOUR land and lives at stake.

Could you be a stand up philosopher when you are threatened with death,

from a universally acknowledged corrupt regime, run by an ego maniac who

HAS IN REAL LIFE encouraged others to kill dissenters for speaking out?

Edited September 16, 2008 by animatic

[permanent_disorder]

Of course you go way beyond teasing as you attack my views. On a regular basis.

I said 'easy enough done' at your saying find a picture of Popper, I did, easy enough.

a

i didn't saw that. and my edits had just the purpose to shorten your post, but keep a little bit that other readers can see to what entry i am refering too. i didn't want silence you, but we don't have to quote everything in full lengh all the time. i don't attack you on regular basis. didn't you call my posts an old record and a dead horse? did you just attack me for my avatar. i gave you a short reply 'that you have humour' i meant that honest, the was some creativity behind your typing and not just the typical imbecile smiley of those have nothing to say and nothing to add.

in that post you predict future with a bookazine store have only "Mein Kampf" and "The Open Society" for sale, so i thought it's funny to post a pic of "Mein Kampf" thai edition, the request for a Popper pic or a pic of "The Open Society" was only rhetorical and i didn't expect that you will get a pic of the book (on discount sale - old politics). please don't feel threaten, relax

As William Bartley has put it,

we never know what we are saying, as our ideas have consequences of which we are not aware

yeah, you can go to wikipedia, look under critics and than quote some scholarly papers you never read before and you have won.

As well as then looked closer at Popper in relation to your continuous line of thought.

I found definite dichotomies. And thought to quote your original source reference Popper in rebuttle.

This is very important as it also explains why we can have limited free will, and thus live as moral creatures creating better futures for ourselves and our society (a very important thing). We should also emphasize that our free will is limited by this necessary connection of matter. We do not have the freedom to

....

&

In other words all the actions of those talking in Bangkok are all interactive and like the butterfly wing in Bolivia causing a tidal wave in Sumatra, little things interact to create a new whole. Such that another butterfly in Calcuta

could have conteracted that 1st insects energies. In the end..... BALANCE for a time.

cool, the alltime classics free will , chaos theory and even that philosophical mega meme time add a little bit more cybernetics and the girls will love you. Heinz von Foerster is über hot, best heart breaker evar!!11one!! works for me all the time.

...

my point was and is- we can take Poppers theory of the "Open Society" as a tool to describe what's going on or have a common base to find a definition of social strucures. there have been therms around like communism, national socialism, reactionary etc. there are many/different theories around to describe them. one postor pointed out the differnce between nazi and fascist, rightly. for a few is communism a positive idea for others not. if we keep talking about this and understand each other, or just avoid sentence like nazi, fascism as N.N. see it etc. we should find a common base, a common definition. i recommend Poppers "Open Society". why - i told already.

so now we have those definition as base and don't have point out minor differences between fascism and nationalsocialism again and again and now look a the structure. chang noi did a nice thing in comparing structure, the structure of a human body, head, blood, lungs, hands, legs with the organisation struture and different parts of the PAD cult mob. isn't it odd to compare a human body with a mass movement? it's helps to undertand and to explain.

the same way we can compare the structure and mechanics of communism and nationlsocialism or other lunatic ideas of doing something good for the people. also at different time in history or continents. cults, commies, nazis they all have their idea of doing something good, they belief that and pretty soon they have been in a dead end street of no return. we can look and compare their rhetoric, mobalisation etc. you will find factions, like the unions, military, youth and their function, even esotherics. actions like conquest of the street, march to roma etc. it has been done to find out if we can compare them and yes we can.

i didn't request a bickering fight with a google Ph.D it's a theory, not the final truth. funny, because Popper also explained that there can not be a final truth, Popper exclude that

...

So even Popper hedges his bets and doesn't assume ANY of his arguments are correct.

While many here throw out blanket condemnations from the high chair of absolute certitude,

and prove they know as little as most any one.

It's EASY to rail on from the catbird seat,

but not so easy to DO IT, when it is YOUR land and lives at stake.

Could you be a stand up philosopher when you are threatened with death,

from a universally acknowledged corrupt regime, run by an ego maniac who

HAS IN REAL LIFE encouraged others to kill dissenters for speaking out?

okay, you found out the complex work of Popper is the opposite of a theory of everything, fine.

and desperatly looking for counter arguments you start finally to gloryfing the PAD cult mob more and more. the brave superhero freedom fighters. you have belief, that great promise " new politics" the final war. did you read their Announcement Number 20/2008?

they say: Support for good people to manage the country and blocking of evil people from coming to power so all sectors of society are ensured justice. that is cool, right? and they say:It is not necessary for negotiations with any group that sees otherwise. you don't have frantically to try to make fun of Popper. this time i don't give you a point for humour. light a candle, rattle with the rattle and believe. theyou are the good people.

i tried to explain what worries me with the PAD cult. i am really concernd. try to explain it in words and pictures. you coulnd't give any answer only a google show off and complete other aspects in the work of Popper. a joke.

in green, it's me.

ps. and don't forget to pay your taxes.

[hammered]

A-Times has an interesting piece on regional "people's movements" and their connection to changing regional politics.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/JI17Ae01.html

[kurtgruen]

If those un-named reporters didn't want to ask questions on stage then they were wimps,

and don't deserve a good 1st person story. Compare their qualms vs those that regularly

go into REAL war zones to report. I think PAD leaders being willing to get asked any question

on TV in front of all and sundry is not exactly demanding the press kow tow,

but just stand up and ask their questions like men and get their answers.

And remember PAD doesn't know the question, they must ALSO speak extemporaniously

right then and there.[/qoute]

Good morning everyone,

That's the way I look at it, too. The nice thing about asking questions in public, rather than behind closed walls of a press room, is that the public will know, when reporters are twisting the truth.

It also leaves reporters open to ask any question, which will make for a very interesting dialogue on stage, I think ;-)

So in the end, the public will benefit.

[Jai Dee]

Court to accept PAD’s appeal against arrest warrants

The Court of Appeals orders the Court of First Instance to accept an appeal filed by the People’s Alliance for Democracy (PAD) for the withdrawal of arrest warrants against nine PAD leaders.

The Court of Appeals says there is no law which prohibits an appeal against an arrest warrant and the nine PAD leaders have the right to file the appeal as they are affected by the issuance of the warrants.

The Criminal Court issued arrest warrants for the nine PAD leaders on August 27th following PAD’s seizure of the Government House and other government places.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 17 September 2008

[Splatter]

Thai newspaper reporters being intimidated?

Where have I heard about that before?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4115273.stm

[sriracha john]

Court to accept PAD’s appeal against arrest warrants the Court of Appeals orders the Court of First Instance to accept an appeal filed by the People’s Alliance for Democracy (PAD) for the withdrawal of arrest warrants against nine PAD leaders and the Court of Appeals says there is no law which prohibits an appeal against an arrest warrant and the nine PAD leaders have the right to file the appeal as they are affected by the issuance of the warrants and the Criminal Court issued arrest warrants.

wha'?

[hammered]

Court to accept PAD’s appeal against arrest warrants the Court of Appeals orders the Court of First Instance to accept an appeal filed by the People’s Alliance for Democracy (PAD) for the withdrawal of arrest warrants against nine PAD leaders and the Court of Appeals says there is no law which prohibits an appeal against an arrest warrant and the nine PAD leaders have the right to file the appeal as they are affected by the issuance of the warrants and the Criminal Court issued arrest warrants.

wha'?

it does sound hard to understand, but I am no lawyer

nyway everything that has happened today will lead to some reduction of tension at least for a couple of hours;)

[permanent_disorder]

Truth is words like facism and nazi are bandied around because of their strong negative connotations in western psyche. they are used to try and dehumanise or belittle opponents. Then again isnt the act of dehumanising a facist/nazi trait?

you are right. the nazi card comes often just as a stupid insult.

funny is that we saw in my other entry a lot of posters showing thaksin as the hitler.

and dehumanising is a nazi trait. they called the others subhuman. the claimed enemy was the jew. the didn't invent antisemitism, but they make to a program of their "new way". the jews betrayed the german nation, steal the money. all the antsemitism we have until today. the unusual rich, foreign connections - the bolshevik from russia, a sub human race. rabbis celebrating black mess and drinking children blood. all bad elements bribed by Jewish money.

the hate object of the PAD cult is thaksin, he betrayed the nation, steal from the people, sell out the country to signapore, black magic rituals with khmer wizzard to damage thailand. and he buy everything, the voters, the MP, all proxies and so on. you know the record. propaganda with envy on wealth and also nationalistic rhetoric. hate speech, i quoted the square face song, samak got called the dog, pid nose dog mouth. all bad elements bribed by Thaksin money.

and there is the "protest art", that on of the first things i got aware off and found very odd. the thaksin hitlers of course and others reminds me on anti semitic cartoons of the nazis. they used them as propaganda, years before '33 and years before the start to kill them. Goebbels: "it was often easier to express Nazi ideas in a political cartoon than with the written word"". in the nazi mag Der Stürmer you could found those drawings. your typical sterotyp. the jewish docter, the attorneys, the commercial jew, the conspiration jew, the jew as Untermensch, a inferior race. you have cartoons like that until today, widley spread in the web on hate pages.

let's have a look at few pictures. flickr is a good source and this a good collection http://flickr.com/photos/11401580@N03/sets...57607100909426/

in PAD propaganda iconography is thaksin always the money jew and samak the Untermensch.

lame attempt, a recyled TRT placard, early pre coup times. the moustache dosn't really look like a hitler moustache. more like a dirty sanchez, add a little bit dirty sexual connotation is cult. and bloodsucker devil teeth. bloodsucker devil you. you wannabe saddam, grow a really moustache. GET OUT!

wow, that is a little bit better, thaksin the hitler and puppet player, holds his helldog on a string. samaks facial features got kindly little bit changed. original, creative or mass produced? i have seen it before:

click pic for source. the first a german funny mag of WWII. the old conspiracy theory.worldleaders marionettes of the jews. the marionette idea but probably beaten to death by tausends of witty caricaturist. and the funny thai version just a copy of a copy of a copy. somebody see thaksin on movie poster pics? copies too. but okay a Hakenkreuz swastika added to confuse the hindus and falung gong fellowers. 卐 is always good to bring some spice& creativity in politics.

thaksin as crossdressing hitler or crossdressing thaksin as hitler? or gender confused thaksin as ilse koch? even without the moustache, no idea. is that homophob? what the message, thaksin not man enough only hag. isn't that woman discrimination, or ladyboy discrimination? what does the thai LGBT community think of it?

an educational poster of the pre coup time. thaksin sit on a moneybag and betray the nation, sell out the country, give a few coins to the right, poor blue shirt farmer people, but look left side, Sondhi & The Mob is coming brave and law-abiding tax payer. see, also a kid, happy. the good people. no idea what the dogs are starting to do.

click pic for source. Money Is The God Of The Jews: "The God of the Jews is money. To earn money, he commits the greatest crimes. He will not rest until he can sit on a huge money sack, until he has become the king of money." he sits in front of the Börse/stock exchange. Finanzjuden, commercial jew most hated by nazi. they shout against capitalism and imperialism, same as the left wings communists. the moneybag jew became rich without honest work, only interest, usurious interest with money lending. Goebbels: Why Are We Socialists?

2006 PADcult stage. thaksin, the octopus have everything in his hands. the country assets, parliment, TV, satellite... and that beast eats the Kingdom. but people fighting him. Bang, Bang, Kick. Juden raus, jewsthaksin get out. Jawohl.

click pic for source: the jewish octopus, or jewish monster try to take over the world is a often used motif. 2nd pic Title: "The Economy and Jewry: This issue accuses Jews of every manner of economic misdeed. The cartoon is titled "Demon Money." A Jewish monster, engraved with the Star of David and the symbols for the American dollar and British pound has its claws on the planet.. but not only the nazis had used the octopus in propaganda, an other earlier example, that could see in close relation would be the anti-trust litigation against Standard Oil 100 years ago, the standard oil octopus.

the clenched hand we can see on a NSDAP poster for the 1929 state election in saxony. in english: end corruption / vote for nationalsocialists. you see against corruption, like the "good people"

now we are coming to really dehumanising pics, seen of samak in the area of news politics, get even more ugly thaksin=hitler and jew was kindergarten, but samak is the devil dog with pig nose from hel_l government.

there are many more similar pics, i don't want post more and also not comment them. just ask yourself, how many racial stereotypes and insults you can find? and is that the way you should act as the "good people" movement?

click on pic for source. the last one is from a children's book The Father of the Jews is the Devil

disclaimer:

enough for pics now, and keep in mind all that is not a conclusive proof of sondhi & PAD Mob = Hitler & whatever. it's about the act of dehumanising of opponents in visual propaganda material.

i see it only as an approach, rudiment. much more material to collect, like english transcription of PAD speeches and would welcome any similar work that compare the PAD with Gandhi or with the women mass demonstrations in the 1970/2 anti-salvador allende movement.

if you follow this link http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/pre1933.htm you go to a German Propaganda Archive, also focused on Nazi propaganda during what they called the Kampfzeit, the years when the party was fighting for political power (1919-1933)

you can find translation of goebbels essays and speeches. is good to read and do a study of sources, instead just read a book or watch history channel. goebbels was ~ 25-30 years all that time. the movement was a new and fresh movement. public speeches or road shows in the nazi style nobody have ever done this way before. hitler took acting classes for the perfect show, the radio was a the new mass media, like the internet today. radio became the medium of nazi propaganda and we can all be lucky that they didn't had TV yet.

maybe a moderator can split the thread and move the nazi part to the general forum.

YH, your comparison of PAD to nazis was just as ridiculous from day one.

...

When they came to Bangkok and threw bags of shit and urine at a completely peaceful PAD meeting at Thammasat while the police stood by and watched, you called PAD fascists.

It's simply incomprehensible.

ohh, someone throw a bag of urine at them while the PAD cult mob was chanting "GET OUT, GET OUT, GET OUT". what was it for urine? pig urine, horse urine, donkey urine? i guess donkey urine, donkey urine is the most yellow urine. i saw that last year on television. that must have been then a shower for a ritual purification. now they are innocent until the end of the world and even the pope should wear the sondhi uniform, walk in line and go to play minigolf.

now we have something discipline in here.

"We do not enter parliament to use parliamentary methods. We know that the fate of peoples is determined by personalities, never by parliamentary majorities. The essence of parliamentary democracy is the majority, which destroys personal responsibility and glorifies the masses. A few dozen rogues and crooks run things behind the scenes. Aristocracy depends on accomplishment, the rule of the most able, and the subordination of the less capable to the will of the leadership. Any form of government — no matter how democratic or aristocratic it may outwardly appear — rests on compulsion. The difference is only whether the compulsion is a blessing or a curse for the community.

What we demand is new, decisive, and radical, revolutionary in the truest sense of the word. That has nothing to do with rioting and barricades. It may be that that happens here or there. But it is not an inherent part of the process. Revolutions are spiritual acts. They appear first in people, then in politics and the economy. New people form new structures. The transformation we want is first of all spiritual; that will necessarily change the way things are.

This revolutionary act is beginning to be visible in us. The result is a new type of person visible to the knowing eye: the New Politics. Consistent with his spiritual attitude, the New Politics makes uncompromising demands in politics. There is no if and when for him, only an either — or."

you definitly have no knowledge of European history.....Please let the PAD in Thailand and the Nazis in Germany.....The movements are so different that it can't be more different.....Read some history....I don't know Kershaw.....but it seems either it is not good or you didn't understand it....

As I am born not far away from Hitlers place of birth....from child on you get in touch with informations about Hitler and NSDAP. It is simply silly to read a book about Hitler and based on that you find out that PAD and Sondhi are similar. To compare Sondhi and PAD with Hitler and NSDAP is silly, uneducated and infantile....actually it does not even deserve an answer.

Or do you think that Sondhi plans concentration camps to gas 6 Mill Isaan people or that he'll attack Russia to rule the world??

complete non-sense....

so okay,

assume you are right that born near Hitlers place of birth and a little bit memory on kindergarten stories equals the knowlegde you gain with reading acdemic books or is even better knowlegde. one can get about the Weimar Republik.

and assume you are right that every comparing of the pre '33 NSDAP movement with the PAD mob is just "silly, uneducated and infantile" and shows "definitly .. no knowledge of European history". even the compare was not draw only here but also academics, historian, political scientist - all silly because they are not born not far away from Hitlers place of birth like you.

and assume you are right when you concentrate such a hugh complex like german history between 1920-1945 only on "Hitler & the 6 mill" and (oddly not the whole WWII in europe but only) the attack of the soviet union. and assume you are right that any more detailed and more elaborate view comes from books is either not good or they don't understand it.. btw. nobody said that sondhi=hitler, that arguments about have been not that simple, okay you like it simple.

simple like Beerhall putsch = Hitler & the 6 mill, Sturmabteilung = Hitler & the 6 mill, Autobahn = Hitler & the 6 mill, Gregor Strasser = Hitler & the 6 mill (wait, georg who?... damned you didn't read the book)

and assume that you don't no the difference between words like comparable, " is equal to", resembling, et cetera

(i guess you start a simplification because you got another term wrong. there is indeed a taboo to compare the so called uniqueness or singularity of the Holocaust, that means the 6 mill, their industrialised slaughter, are not comparable with other genocides like on the american indian, or the death of that communist social experiment called Democratic Kampuchea.

other aspects of that "Hitler time" how NSDAP rise to power, Machtergreifung, NS-propaganda, mass mobilisation are indeed comparable hitlers early coup attemp brought the word Putsch into english language, same as blitzkrieg, not so unique. but, okay assume you are right when you concentrate such a hugh complex like german history between 1920-1945 only on "Hitler & the 6 mill")

so assume in all you points you are right, that all that compare is silly, uneducated and infantile and anyone how dare to compare speaks also the accusation out there are plans of gas 6 Mill people.

but the PAD cult compare his hate object thaksin with hitler all the time, in speeches, propaganda, songs, "protest art"

is showed a few pictures- what you are saying now? PAD cult silly, uneducated and infantile, PAD cult - definitly have no knowledge?

[sriracha john]

Court to accept PAD’s appeal against arrest warrants the Court of Appeals orders the Court of First Instance to accept an appeal filed by the People’s Alliance for Democracy (PAD) for the withdrawal of arrest warrants against nine PAD leaders and the Court of Appeals says there is no law which prohibits an appeal against an arrest warrant and the nine PAD leaders have the right to file the appeal as they are affected by the issuance of the warrants and the Criminal Court issued arrest warrants.

wha'?

it does sound hard to understand, but I am no lawyer

anyway everything that has happened today will lead to some reduction of tension at least for a couple of hours;)

I think this makes it clearer...

Appeals court allows PAD leaders to appeal against warrants

The Court of Appeals Wednesday ruled to launch an appellate review on the warrants to arrest nine leaders of the People's Alliance for Democracy accused of treason.

The high court said in its ruling that the nine PAD leaders were entitled to appeal the warrants which had direct bearing on their rights.

- The Nation / 2008-09-18

[Plus]

maybe a moderator can split the thread and move the nazi part to the general forum.

Yeah, and take permanent_disorder there, too.

Another long winded off-topic post that is too long to read.

[jumnien]

How can you appeal an arrest warrant that you refuse to be arrested for? These death penalty cases sure are fun!

[AlKing]

How can you appeal an arrest warrant that you refuse to be arrested for? These death penalty cases sure are fun!

GOOD ONE. Thanks.

[h90]

maybe a moderator can split the thread and move the nazi part to the general forum.

Yeah, and take permanent_disorder there, too.

Another long winded off-topic post that is too long to read.

Or maybe someone can take permanent_disorder back to 1940? He is still fighting the 2nd Worldwar

[blaze]

maybe a moderator can split the thread and move the nazi part to the general forum.

Yeah, and take permanent_disorder there, too.

Another long winded off-topic post that is too long to read.

Or maybe someone can take permanent_disorder back to 1940? He is still fighting the 2nd Worldwar

I think what PD is observing is that while it appears perfectly legitimate for the PAD's propaganda campaign to compare its enemies with Hitler, anyone comparing the PAD propaganda with Nazi propaganda is dismissed as infantile.

Similarly while the PAD can compare the suspected aspirations of Thaksin and Samak with those of Hitler and his cronies- comparisons with Sondhi's and Chamlong's stated ideology (re how to build an ideal government) with Fascist ideology regarding how to build an ideal government- is met with jeers and insults.

[h90]

maybe a moderator can split the thread and move the nazi part to the general forum.

Yeah, and take permanent_disorder there, too.

Another long winded off-topic post that is too long to read.

Or maybe someone can take permanent_disorder back to 1940? He is still fighting the 2nd Worldwar

I think what PD is observing is that while it appears perfectly legitimate for the PAD's propaganda campaign to compare its enemies with Hitler, anyone comparing the PAD propaganda with Nazi propaganda is dismissed as infantile.

Similarly while the PAD can compare the suspected aspirations of Thaksin and Samak with those of Hitler and his cronies- comparisons with Sondhi's and Chamlong's stated ideology (re how to build an ideal government) with Fascist ideology regarding how to build an ideal government- is met with jeers and insults.

The next one with the Nazi nonsense....where who want to build a government with Fascist ideology??

Yes infantile is the most polite word I can find for such a nonsense...

[blaze]

maybe a moderator can split the thread and move the nazi part to the general forum.

Yeah, and take permanent_disorder there, too.

Another long winded off-topic post that is too long to read.

Or maybe someone can take permanent_disorder back to 1940? He is still fighting the 2nd Worldwar

I think what PD is observing is that while it appears perfectly legitimate for the PAD's propaganda campaign to compare its enemies with Hitler, anyone comparing the PAD propaganda with Nazi propaganda is dismissed as infantile.

Similarly while the PAD can compare the suspected aspirations of Thaksin and Samak with those of Hitler and his cronies- comparisons with Sondhi's and Chamlong's stated ideology (re how to build an ideal government) with Fascist ideology regarding how to build an ideal government- is met with jeers and insults.

The next one with the Nazi nonsense....where who want to build a government with Fascist ideology??

Yes infantile is the most polite word I can find for such a nonsense...

LIke you, I would hope that nobody would seriously advocate building a fascist style government- but this is a summary of the Italian Fascist approach to building government (and its rationale) ...

"Politically, to the Fascists, parliamentary democracy could only lead to inefficiency and corrupt government; and so the whole parliamentary system must be discarded. In the words of Mussolini, national strength was conceived qualitatively and not quantitatively. For the strength of the nation, it should be ruled by a well-disciplined party elite, which, under the guidance of an inspired and unquestioned leader, would restore order and stability for the nation and lead it forward to greatness. "

Now compare that with the statements made by the PAD leadership. You don't see parallels? Honestly- in reading the quote in PD's above post (the one in bold)- and since he didn't credit it- I don't know if it was something said by the Fascists- or by the PAD. It's similarity to the one immediately above is almost uncanny.

[Splatter]

maybe a moderator can split the thread and move the nazi part to the general forum.

Yeah, and take permanent_disorder there, too.

Another long winded off-topic post that is too long to read.

Or maybe someone can take permanent_disorder back to 1940? He is still fighting the 2nd Worldwar

I think what PD is observing is that while it appears perfectly legitimate for the PAD's propaganda campaign to compare its enemies with Hitler, anyone comparing the PAD propaganda with Nazi propaganda is dismissed as infantile.

Similarly while the PAD can compare the suspected aspirations of Thaksin and Samak with those of Hitler and his cronies- comparisons with Sondhi's and Chamlong's stated ideology (re how to build an ideal government) with Fascist ideology regarding how to build an ideal government- is met with jeers and insults.

More from Kershaw I presume?

I'd agree it is daft to misuse and manipulate visual imagery in demos, as often it makes the demonstaters look a tad infantile. Just as those of Thatcher as Hitler did in the 1980s UK. However, art has always been used in political protests. Turner and Constable were both making political statements with their landscape art.

The reason I capture the images used from many sides in Thailand, so people like PD can copy and paste the ones they need from flickr, is to show that in the past we were bombarded with a cult of personality surrounding Thaksin and now there is a response to that; trying to shatter his personality cult.

It just maybe that Hitler is the easiest dictator / disliked historical character to make artistic references with, probably because of his closer facial appearance to Thaksin. Stalin (doesn't look an ounce like Thaksin), Lenin (lack of hair is an issue), Mussolini (see Lenin), Napolean (too short, wore a silly hat) or Attila the Blinking Hun (no easy photos available for reference).

Comparing PAD or any other group in Thailand with Nazism is over simplifying and disingenious to any Thai - considering Hitler's fanaticism about racial superiority, eugenics, hate of communism, Madam Fruit Loop Bravatsky, etc.

Just LEAVE IT.

Edited September 18, 2008 by Splatter

[blaze]

maybe a moderator can split the thread and move the nazi part to the general forum.

Yeah, and take permanent_disorder there, too.

Another long winded off-topic post that is too long to read.

Or maybe someone can take permanent_disorder back to 1940? He is still fighting the 2nd Worldwar

I think what PD is observing is that while it appears perfectly legitimate for the PAD's propaganda campaign to compare its enemies with Hitler, anyone comparing the PAD propaganda with Nazi propaganda is dismissed as infantile.

Similarly while the PAD can compare the suspected aspirations of Thaksin and Samak with those of Hitler and his cronies- comparisons with Sondhi's and Chamlong's stated ideology (re how to build an ideal government) with Fascist ideology regarding how to build an ideal government- is met with jeers and insults.

More from Kershaw I presume?

I'd agree it is daft to misuse and manipulate visual imagery in demos, as often it makes the demonstaters look a tad infantile. Just as those of Thatcher as Hitler did in the 1980s UK. However, art has always been used in political protests. Turner and Constable were both making political statements with their landscape art.

The reason I capture the images used from many sides in Thailand, so people like PD can copy and paste the ones they need from flickr, is to show that in the past we were bombarded with a cult of personality surrounding Thaksin and now there is a response to that; trying to shatter his personality cult.

It just maybe that Hitler is the easiest dictator / disliked historical character to make artistic references with, probably because of his closer facial appearance to Thaksin. Stalin (doesn't look an ounce like Thaksin), Lenin (lack of hair is an issue), Mussolini (see Lenin), Napolean (too short, wore a silly hat) or Attila the Blinking Hun (no easy photos available for reference).

Comparing PAD or any other group in Thailand with Nazism is over simplifying and disingenious to any Thai - considering Hitler's fanaticism about racial superiority, eugenics, hate of communism, Madam Fruit Loop Bravatsky, etc.

Just LEAVE IT.

I think I was fairly careful to explain that the similarities between the PAD leadership (and I stress 'leadership') and the fascists extend ONLY to how to build the ideal form of government- not to social policy- not to economic policy- not to foreign policy- ONLY to their shared views on what form the ideal system of government should take.

You can order me to shut up all you want- but as more and more academics analyze the ideology expressed in "New Politics'= I think it won't be the last time you are exposed to these comparisons. Whether or not it makes you uncomfortable.

And the only Kershaw I'm familiar with was a cajun fiddle player named Doug.

Edited September 18, 2008 by blaze

[h90]

maybe a moderator can split the thread and move the nazi part to the general forum.

Yeah, and take permanent_disorder there, too.

Another long winded off-topic post that is too long to read.

Or maybe someone can take permanent_disorder back to 1940? He is still fighting the 2nd Worldwar

I think what PD is observing is that while it appears perfectly legitimate for the PAD's propaganda campaign to compare its enemies with Hitler, anyone comparing the PAD propaganda with Nazi propaganda is dismissed as infantile.

Similarly while the PAD can compare the suspected aspirations of Thaksin and Samak with those of Hitler and his cronies- comparisons with Sondhi's and Chamlong's stated ideology (re how to build an ideal government) with Fascist ideology regarding how to build an ideal government- is met with jeers and insults.

The next one with the Nazi nonsense....where who want to build a government with Fascist ideology??

Yes infantile is the most polite word I can find for such a nonsense...

LIke you, I would hope that nobody would seriously advocate building a fascist style government- but this is a summary of the Italian Fascist approach to building government (and its rationale) ...

"Politically, to the Fascists, parliamentary democracy could only lead to inefficiency and corrupt government; and so the whole parliamentary system must be discarded. In the words of Mussolini, national strength was conceived qualitatively and not quantitatively. For the strength of the nation, it should be ruled by a well-disciplined party elite, which, under the guidance of an inspired and unquestioned leader, would restore order and stability for the nation and lead it forward to greatness. "

Now compare that with the statements made by the PAD leadership. You don't see parallels? Honestly- in reading the quote in PD's above post (the one in bold)- and since he didn't credit it- I don't know if it was something said by the Fascists- or by the PAD. It's similarity to the one immediately above is almost uncanny.

Austria had such a government and was not fascist, Hongkong has such a government and is not fascist. Germany didn't had such a government but was fascist.....

so your arguments are nothing but nonsense.