Where's Your Mamapapa Gone?

[Andrew Hicks]

So often children in Thailand are raised without their parents. It's easily accepted that Mamapapa have to go away to earn the cash to keep the family alive and they only return briefly for a few days a year.

Of course supportive grandparents are there but I often wonder to what extent the children suffer emotional or other damage from this situation.

Does it make children confused or clingy? Do they become insecure and have difficulty with other relationships?

In the West it's thought that absent parents can lead to severe disturbance.

Any thoughts or experience?

[robbiecia]

With the family unit here much stronger than the west...................i think the grandparents just become the adopted parents

Out in the countryside, it seems to be the norm.

Cityliving could raise some issues

[Deke]

I have no experience really, but I would think that in the west it's a problem because it makes the kid "different". Here it's not so unusual for the parents to be absent and therefore not such a big deal.

[fred2007]

With the family unit here much stronger than the west...................i think the grandparents just become the adopted parents

Out in the countryside, it seems to be the norm.

Cityliving could raise some issues

stronger then the west? you joking I guess I don't like to tell the whole story because it would be to long I look after nephew brother in law,sister in law and grand parends

[robbiecia]

With the family unit here much stronger than the west...................i think the grandparents just become the adopted parents

Out in the countryside, it seems to be the norm.

Cityliving could raise some issues

stronger then the west? you joking I guess I don't like to tell the whole story because it would be to long I look after nephew brother in law,sister in law and grand parends

You say that....but in the west, you wouldn't be looking after the grandparents......................they would be in an old folks home!!!!!!!!!

[Pierrot]

Dad unknown, mum too well known ...

In Thailand it seems more frequent but it happens all over the world. The results are usually not pretty but some (few) can get over what they have been through and then raise a "normal" family.

[fred2007]

With the family unit here much stronger than the west...................i think the grandparents just become the adopted parents

Out in the countryside, it seems to be the norm.

Cityliving could raise some issues

stronger then the west? you joking I guess I don't like to tell the whole story because it would be to long I look after nephew brother in law,sister in law and grand parends

You say that....but in the west, you wouldn't be looking after the grandparents......................they would be in an old folks home!!!!!!!!!

I don't know where you come from, I never met my grand parents because I was borne very late in my mothers life but I always looked after my mom, never knew my dad and I looked after old people I knew, and my wife worked in a nursing home and she cares about all old people

including me

[bina]

sociologists have been studying nuclear vs extended family and affects on children for donkeys' years: in many societies, an entire village raises the children and there is no distinct role for biological father or mother; people are still preoccupied about same sex parents as parents: what i know is that most 'academic' studies state that a 'main caretaker' is the important point: in kibbutz, kids were raised (and many suffered but most came out ok) by the main caretaker in childrens' houses, and the parents were for visiting; now it is reversed and kids still have problems, dysfunctions, etc... only different ones.

in agricultural societies, it was a fact of life that old folks stay at home with babies and children and strong workers go out to work in fields; grandma and grandpa anyway ruled the house/home area (among arabs and jews from north africa the 'hamula' was a huge extended family with elders ruling everyone else, and women lived and did almost everything separately from the men anyway, young and old)...

that was all fine when the world was a slow, agrarian, routine way of life. the problem nowadasy or even for the past however many years (take your pick) is that the world is moving faster and it is harder for older people to take the role of main caretaker, because they really cant keep up with the changes that the younger generations are going thru.

the problem of ethiopians here for instance was that the fathers (males of the house) lost their status as main figures, as did the elders, leaving a group of younger generation kids with out any parental roles at all; the role was reversed with the child translating, and taking the role of adult for the parents... dysfunctional families followed.

in thailand , up to about 1970's, families were more functional... after thai men started going to foreign countries as migrant workers, the role of grandparents took on a more important role, but society itself was changing very fast... and the rest is history.

i often wonder about the guys here who have children whom they've never seen (got wife pregnant and then came over seas to work as migrant workers); how do they come back after five years and suddenly become 'father knows best'... ???

it seems that from what i noticed thai men (dont know about women as i know very few, where as i know hundreds of thai migrant worker males) in general arent that 'close' in the sense that we as westerners use the term, with their parents --maybe to their mothers a bit more. parents are not the people they will discuss their daily problems with. parents are for making sure they were clothed, fed, and taught. the new 'lifestyle' types of living is a very western thing.

also our expectations of what 'proper' family is, of course. in ghettoes, women have been raising their kdis without any steady male figure for years; and its not certain that the nuclear family living in its suburban house has any better or worse kids(rich or poor, dysfunctional happens to us all)...

how many men here have kids but are working off shore and see their babies on and off; or werent even in thailand for the birth...

the list goes on...

well so much for my dissertation. btw, this has been discussed a million times in the forums, often in the issaan forum actually...

childrearing/functional family is a much discussed topic anywhere on the web, and your own culture dictates how u see things....

bina

israel

footnote: and very general info; cant state my sources anymore as got rid of my socio books etc years ago... the rest is from info from here (israel) as parenting is much in the news a lot (same sex parents, nuclear vs. extended, changing roles of the parent, parents as friends and ot as parents, single parents raising children, grandparents raising children like among the russian population here, its being written aabout everyday here in the news)...

Edited September 16, 2008 by bina

[Nignoy]

how about all the ex army brats like myself,from the age of 6 to 14 shunted from O.R,s boarding school to boardingschool, by the way not fancy ones like Eton or Harrow!! but Factories like St Johns in Nairobi or BFS school in Hamm or the dreaded British Saints in Serangoon, where the washed up male teachers motto was rum bum and gramophone records, and then at a ripe old age of 14 years and 6 months enrolled in the army apprentice school so off to sunny aldershot then at the ripe old age of 17 being let loose on the world, so after 3 marriages , and chasing round the world for the last 50 years, being able to chat and curse in untold foreign languages and dialects, of course now with the onset of oldtimers get the odd amazed look when batering with a phuket street trader in swahili or gudgeraati , I guess the answer of being brought up by someone else effects you, of course it Frigging does.

[Mossfinn]

how about all the ex army brats like myself,from the age of 6 to 14 shunted from O.R,s boarding school to boardingschool, by the way not fancy ones like Eton or Harrow!! but Factories like St Johns in Nairobi or BFS school in Hamm or the dreaded British Saints in Serangoon, where the washed up male teachers motto was rum bum and gramophone records, and then at a ripe old age of 14 years and 6 months enrolled in the army apprentice school so off to sunny aldershot then at the ripe old age of 17 being let loose on the world, so after 3 marriages , and chasing round the world for the last 50 years, being able to chat and curse in untold foreign languages and dialects, of course now with the onset of oldtimers get the odd amazed look when batering with a phuket street trader in swahili or gudgeraati , I guess the answer of being brought up by someone else effects you, of course it Frigging does.

I like this post Nignoy, I really do.

You have just told a story in 6-7 lines that could fill a book or two and keep the reader turning to the last page.

Good Luck

Moss

I have a feeling that Hicks is on another Research gathering exercise.

[swain]

The extended family has been very good for me and my wife, plus the arrangement given meaning and purpose to my mother-in-laws life. Though with all the parental units around I think it has made my daughter more dependent on someone always being there. I don't think my daughter gets enough alone time. She is happy and I guess this is what counts. The only thing I really couldn't accept was sharing the bed. My daughter from the very beginning had her own room and her own crib but with as much as my mother in law is in there with her you would almost think she has made this her room as well.

[Dakhar]

So often children in Thailand are raised without their parents. It's easily accepted that Mamapapa have to go away to earn the cash to keep the family alive and they only return briefly for a few days a year.

Of course supportive grandparents are there but I often wonder to what extent the children suffer emotional or other damage from this situation.

Does it make children confused or clingy? Do they become insecure and have difficulty with other relationships?

In the West it's thought that absent parents can lead to severe disturbance.

Any thoughts or experience?

Does it make the children confused...... children, become adults.... and adults here seem pletny confused

[sylviex]

QUOTE (Nignoy @ 2008-09-17 03:06:16) how about all the ex army brats like myself,from the age of 6 to 14 shunted from O.R,s boarding school to boardingschool, by the way not fancy ones like Eton or Harrow!! but Factories like St Johns in Nairobi or BFS school in Hamm or the dreaded British Saints in Serangoon, where the washed up male teachers motto was rum bum and gramophone records, and then at a ripe old age of 14 years and 6 months enrolled in the army apprentice school so off to sunny aldershot then at the ripe old age of 17 being let loose on the world, so after 3 marriages , and chasing round the world for the last 50 years, being able to chat and curse in untold foreign languages and dialects, of course now with the onset of oldtimers get the odd amazed look when batering with a phuket street trader in swahili or gudgeraati , I guess the answer of being brought up by someone else effects you, of course it Frigging does.

I like this post Nignoy, I really do.

You have just told a story in 6-7 lines that could fill a book or two and keep the reader turning to the last page.

Indeed -- why is it that all the wrong people have the urge to write ?

Re bonding and sleeping with babies:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2003/jan...h.publichealth2

[Mosha]

In my extended family are at least 2 kids who have been dumped. There mothers came round and said con you look after my baby for a couple of hours. Never to be seen again. At least the other kids in this topic are with family.

[Maigo6]

In the West it's thought that absent parents can lead to severe disturbance.

Any thoughts or experience?

I'm a product of Childrens Homes in UK, and I'm not disturbed !

Edited September 17, 2008 by Maigo6

[G54]

Maybe because it is seen as the 'norm' here in many cases for children to be brought up by family as opposed to parents that the children seem to grow up without too many problems?

Having been around a few Thai families the whole family unit seems to work very well. Unlike the lone parent problems back in the UK where the single parent seems to have so little control - an that is not a dig at single mothers, because many fathers rearing a child on their own suffer problems as well as mothers IMHO from raising my son on my own for too long.

I will add that in years gone by families were a lot larger in the West and everyone knuckled down to help out, not like in the modern society.

Therefore, no, I do not think the children suffer by not having the parents about.

[sylviex]

Maybe because it is seen as the 'norm' here in many cases for children to be brought up by family as opposed to parents that the children seem to grow up without too many problems?

Having been around a few Thai families the whole family unit seems to work very well. Unlike the lone parent problems back in the UK where the single parent seems to have so little control - an that is not a dig at single mothers, because many fathers rearing a child on their own suffer problems as well as mothers IMHO from raising my son on my own for too long.

I will add that in years gone by families were a lot larger in the West and everyone knuckled down to help out, not like in the modern society.

Therefore, no, I do not think the children suffer by not having the parents about.

I agree that a loving extended family can only be good.

However, I don't think that's quite the situation Mr. Hicks has in mind.

[thaihome]

how about all the ex army brats like myself,from the age of 6 to 14 shunted from O.R,s boarding school to boardingschool, by the way not fancy ones like Eton or Harrow!! but Factories like St Johns in Nairobi or BFS school in Hamm or the dreaded British Saints in Serangoon, where the washed up male teachers motto was rum bum and gramophone records, and then at a ripe old age of 14 years and 6 months enrolled in the army apprentice school so off to sunny aldershot then at the ripe old age of 17 being let loose on the world, so after 3 marriages , and chasing round the world for the last 50 years, being able to chat and curse in untold foreign languages and dialects, of course now with the onset of oldtimers get the odd amazed look when batering with a phuket street trader in swahili or gudgeraati , I guess the answer of being brought up by someone else effects you, of course it Frigging does.

Actually a great post and I’m glad you chose to share it with us. Unfortunately not it is not really germane to a discussion on the impacts of being brought up in a rural Thai area by your grandparents instead of your parents.

The answer is very simple. If the family is a functioning unit in the fist place, and the parents are actually out working and supporting the family at home and the grandparents are physically able to again raise well adjusted adults (like they did the first time) , then I think the impact is minimal. The opposite of that, with added toxicity of alcoholism, can be disastrous.

TH

[egg6447]

In the West it's thought that absent parents can lead to severe disturbance.

Any thoughts or experience?

I'm a product of Childrens Homes in UK, and I'm not disturbed !

a;ow me to be the first to tell you maigo. lol. just joking mate. goodonya.

[Maigo6]

In the West it's thought that absent parents can lead to severe disturbance.

Any thoughts or experience?

I'm a product of Childrens Homes in UK, and I'm not disturbed !

a;ow me to be the first to tell you maigo. lol. just joking mate. goodonya.

LOL...

Best years of my life they were, problem was being moved about quite often, but apart from that, it was a good life experience.

To be honest, my house when I was a kid, wasn't the best place to be. When my Mother left for the final time I was really happy when the magistrate ordered me to be put in the Care of the County.

I had many opportunities that I would never have had if I had never gone away.

[dumball]

how about all the ex army brats like myself,from the age of 6 to 14 shunted from O.R,s boarding school to boardingschool, by the way not fancy ones like Eton or Harrow!! but Factories like St Johns in Nairobi or BFS school in Hamm or the dreaded British Saints in Serangoon, where the washed up male teachers motto was rum bum and gramophone records, and then at a ripe old age of 14 years and 6 months enrolled in the army apprentice school so off to sunny aldershot then at the ripe old age of 17 being let loose on the world, so after 3 marriages , and chasing round the world for the last 50 years, being able to chat and curse in untold foreign languages and dialects, of course now with the onset of oldtimers get the odd amazed look when batering with a phuket street trader in swahili or gudgeraati , I guess the answer of being brought up by someone else effects you, of course it Frigging does.

Actually a great post and I'm glad you chose to share it with us. Unfortunately not it is not really germane to a discussion on the impacts of being brought up in a rural Thai area by your grandparents instead of your parents.

The answer is very simple. If the family is a functioning unit in the fist place, and the parents are actually out working and supporting the family at home and the grandparents are physically able to again raise well adjusted adults (like they did the first time) , then I think the impact is minimal. The opposite of that, with added toxicity of alcoholism, can be disastrous.

TH

Contains the usual smattering of presumptous thinking , ifs ands and buts !!!!

[Andrew Hicks]

Thanks for so many interesting points on this thread. The kibbutz experience is particularly valuable.

I opened the thread because social and family breakdown in the countryside interests me and I often wonder about the impact on childern of absent parents. Until now I have never noticed any evidence of children being disturbed by this as they always have some other permanent parent substitute to rely on.

However, I've observed a three year old girl who seems disturbed by her parents coming and going to work away in Bangkok. Granny is always there but is not in good health and various individuals are brought in for a time to help out. The child seems to bond closely to these helpers more than with the grandmother and she has become clingy and erratic, often asking for the helper and crying for her.

Perhaps I've answered my own question, but I wondered what individual cases other Thai residents had seen.

Generally it amazes me how resilient village society is... I live on the rice plains of Surin. But certainly it is under threat with urban migration and lack of jobs.

Why can't they bring small industry to the provinces and ease pressure on Bangkok and the Eastern seaboard.

But that's another question.

[geriatrickid]

Does it make children confused or clingy? Do they become insecure and have difficulty with other relationships?

Perhaps that explains many of the odd behaviours one has seen displayed by a few members of the House of Windsor; Unless it was all that Battenberg inbreeding?

However, I've observed a three year old girl who seems disturbed by her parents coming and going to work away in Bangkok. Granny is always there but is not in good health and various individuals are brought in for a time to help out. The child seems to bond closely to these helpers more than with the grandmother and she has become clingy and erratic, often asking for the helper and crying for her.

uhh dude she's a 3 year old girl. Kids do that. Worry about her when she's 19 and attached herself to an elderly male, ok. When I was a toddler, I was cared for by one of our household servants and I can assure you that I have no ill effects. I can't even remember this lady that supposedly was such a big part of my life. My only memory was that she was a chain smoker.

For alot of kids, they are better off with the grandparents.

[dumball]

Does it make children confused or clingy? Do they become insecure and have difficulty with other relationships?

Perhaps that explains many of the odd behaviours one has seen displayed by a few members of the House of Windsor; Unless it was all that Battenberg inbreeding?

However, I've observed a three year old girl who seems disturbed by her parents coming and going to work away in Bangkok. Granny is always there but is not in good health and various individuals are brought in for a time to help out. The child seems to bond closely to these helpers more than with the grandmother and she has become clingy and erratic, often asking for the helper and crying for her.

uhh dude she's a 3 year old girl. Kids do that. Worry about her when she's 19 and attached herself to an elderly male, ok. When I was a toddler, I was cared for by one of our household servants and I can assure you that I have no ill effects. I can't even remember this lady that supposedly was such a big part of my life. My only memory was that she was a chain smoker.

For alot of kids, they are better off with the grandparents.

Typical , when this 'Stranger ' crawls out of the basement at the grand old age of 19 without prior , loving instruction , she will appreciate your now doting affection , a child needs loving attention and caring throughout their entire lives , not just when you deam it fit to give it . Even though a 3 year old may not appear to need you and your guidance , the early years have been found to be the most essential , these are the times of most rapid developement .

My daughter fought government for 3 years to open a non-profit pre-school facility in her twin counties , they are now prolific , early childhood training and guidance have been proven to be of the utmost importance to children . Some drunken (not all)old lady still living in poverty and ancient history is the last place a child can achieve this type of upbringing , hence the re-cycling of poverty and lack of decent education AT THE MOST VULNERABLE AGE . I dislike it when people such as your good self spout off about something they have not studied or been involved with in a personal manner , the Thai system is a system of convenience whereby a child is abandoned , yes abandoned , in some up country village and left to the (often) uncaring devices of who-ever may or may not be convenient at any given time . It is only convenient to the parent who abondones a child in this manner to live the good life in the city unrestrained by an often unwanted offspring or because she herself has been abandoned . Please get with the programme , this is 2008 not 1008 .

[bina]

rather presumptuous to say 'give up' since a large percentage of those working in bangkok are there to work to support the family and not for the make quick money scene.. and they would rather be home... also those that are migrant workers... rather then making 150 baht a day cutting cane, they can work in 40+ degree heat in hot houses picking cucumbers for 15 hours aday but make more money in a day then they can in a month in issaan... and they pay the price and they know it...or work wherever in bangkok making more then non work somewhere else...

i see men crying in their sleep, and get photos of family pushed in my face almost eveery other saturday (the day that anon and i go to the moshavim visiting foreign thai workers, etc) just because they miss their family and children... and the few women that i've met here have for the most part come a cross as concerned parents.

in anon's family, his sister takes turns with her husband to go to bangkok to work, depending on the job... sometimes she goes to be with him when he finds somewhere that will take a husband/wife team... and the kids are with grandma. i saw the grandmother, loving, kind, calm, firm... ok, not sophisticated, no education, and not our western standards, but the kids were held, showered, fed, talked to, played with, cuddled and had a good relationship with bothe parents and grandmother. they, btw, live in the worst of shacks in a tree.

other instances i have heard of abuse: a 10 yr old daughter of a worker, divorced from his wife, the wife ran off with a farang and the daughter was living with a very old grandmother and therefore was the main supporter in that family, at 10 yrs old.

3 yr olds will be clingy, no matter what. some kids have a harder time than others with separation. our 'nannies' were taught that when children respond with concern and tears when parents leave, it means they have a good connection with their parents. a child who shows no concern has a loose connection. and when i say 'nannies' i mean professional caretakers of all age groups that have gone thru college training including child psychology, cognitive develpment etc... all our nannies are trained (like kindergarten teacher levels, but including infant development etc).

and in the western world when one parent is in constant motion for business, or is in army/navy whatever and not at home? and mother works?

actually, andrew, more then the children having problems iwth being raised in the children's houses, the mothers from that time period suffered guilt and remorse even up til now on that they werent with their kids at night, when the child was ill, or in general. also some of these kids have no clue as to how to be a parent in the 'western' regular way, my ex is an example. he had to learn how to be a father, and only really kicked in as a father when he met his now girlfriend, a woman from a 9 sibling family. others managed to learn how to be a parent regardless, so i think that the individual interactions may have had more influence than the circumstances themselve. i.e. my ex's father (a wwII survivor who lost his family when he was 13 and was on his own from that time on like so many of them) didnt know how to be a father either. my ex mother in law, from the same circumstances, knew how to be a good mother, and resented the fact that she couldnt be with her kids at night for instance. and she made up jfor all those lost years of taking care of her babies by mothering my kids. so my kids were raised by several people, although it is very clear that i am the mother. the youngest was literally raised by my brother in law and his wife, and grandma, more then by me or my ex. but she is closest to be in many aspects.

not taht much thailand related but about different ways (and a woman's -mother's perspective at that) that a child can be reared that does not neccesarily contain the two parents, house, two cars in the garage and a dog family journal magazine suburban myth style of child rearing.

just to add : jsut met a thai worker with a wife and 9yr old child in thailand, he sends home money every month for schooling and whatever. he also had a filipina 'wife' here, with a baby ,who recently got deported when her visa /lack of visa caught up with her. and he misses both. and sends money to her also. and apparently was a loving father while he could be a father here. and his filipina child will most likely be raised by the grandmother as the mother will probably have to go out of her country again to work to support her child.

anyway...

bina