What Bike Should I Get?

[wrathfultalon]

btw. My CB400 with dodgy book has run for 2 years without one breakdown.

Pulls like a mule goin up a ladder. I changed the rear sprocket from 42 to 37 teeth to get some top end.

i would be interested if they had they had the green books, my wife has been complaining about not having transportation... pm me with a price

[Richard-BKK]

The problem with the Kawasaki KRR or any two-strokes is not that the government is going to ban them, they not need to..... Try to mix newer fuels with 2-stroke oil and you not make it to the end of your soi..... Okay maybe two soi's...

[Richard-BKK]

If I hear the talks "Thai Head Office of Police" about motorcycles and illegality in Phuket, I belief that the Police will soon do a crackdown.....

[Richard-BKK]

Hi submaniac,

Do you want to put some money on a race, your 150cc two-stroke to my stock with different ECU Honda CZ-i 110cc motorcycle? I bet 10,000 Baht I beat you in a 4 kilometer run. Not even care what you do to the 2-stroke.... With a simple modification to the ECU of the Honda CZ-i it will burn twice as much fuel and rockets you to 160km/h in a time long not seen....

[imaneggspurt]

Hi submaniac,

Do you want to put some money on a race, your 150cc two-stroke to my stock with different ECU Honda CZ-i 110cc motorcycle? I bet 10,000 Baht I beat you in a 4 kilometer run. Not even care what you do to the 2-stroke.... With a simple modification to the ECU of the Honda CZ-i it will burn twice as much fuel and rockets you to 160km/h in a time long not seen....

THAT i would have to see to beleive

[dave_boo]

A NSR 150 would be bad ass there, small but bigger and faster than other comparably sized bikes.

Amen to that. I can tell you from personal experience that a two-stroke 150cc is great for Bangkok traffic. Lightweight (a little bit over 200 lbs) and powerful (around 35-40hp depending on the bike). They are very nimble with the ability to squeeze betweeen the cars, and have plenty of 'go' when you crank the throttle.

It's a pity, but I don't think alot of people on this forum really know how the two-strokes work. A 'stroke' is everytime the piston goes up and down. A 'power stroke' is the stroke when gasoline is burned producing power, which is (ultimately) transferred to the wheel. On a 4 stroke, every fourth stroke is a power stroke. On a 2 stroke, every second stroke is a power stroke. (Okay, it is a little more complicated than that; if you want more in depth analysis go here How stuff works: Two Stroke Engines)

All you really need to know is that a two stroke produces twice the power of a comparable sized four stroke, because it fires twice as many 'power strokes'. So if you want to know the power of a two stroke relative to a four stroke engine, multiply the two stroke engine by two. So a 150cc two stroke is equal to a 300cc twin. That is why in motorcycle racing (such as motorcross) a four stroke engine is allowed twice as much displacement as a two stroke engine.

For everyone on this forum talking about how the CBR 150 is a better deal than the Kawasaki 250 Ninja, the old two strokes have both bikes beat. They are cheaper (used), cheaper to fix (because a two stroke engine is less complicated than a 4 stroke), and more powerful than either the 17hp CBR or 250 Ninja.

I highly doubt that the old two strokes will be banned. If there is a 'ban' it will be on new two strokes (I believe the Kawasaki KRR is the last two stroke that you can still get brand new). The old two strokes I believe would still be grandfathered in. The reason I don't think they will be banned is that alot of Thais still use the two strokes as basic transportation (because they can't afford new bikes). I think the government would be risking an uprising by alot of people if they banned the two strokes. People on this forum have been talking about a two stroke ban for years, but no one has ever shown any legislation either passed, or proposed, on it. And if it ain't banned by now, why would it be banned in the future? All the government has to do is let the two-strokes die a slow death as they wear out and people do not repair them anymore. Kind of like the ban on the leaded fuel cars in the United States. Leaded fuel is banned, but the old cars that run on them (which include your 1960's era mustangs, camaros, etc.) are not. No state ever banned leaded fuel cars, but let them die off through attrition.

I've seen HP numbers for the NSR 150 floating around that indicate 37 HP, making your statement valid about it being of higher output than the Ninja; if they were grounded in reality. However, Tyga had a project bike, and bone stock it produced only 23 RWHP. Extrapolating a 15% drivetrain power loss, you arrive at a 27 BHP. Even after doing all their performance mods to it, it only made it up to a 29 RWHP (34 BHP), which indicates that a person who owns a Ninja would only have to increase their power by 3%, and they'd be at the same level as Tyga's hopped up bike is at. I would like to point out that the mods did broaden the powerband though.

There are always exceptions to the adage that the 2 stroke is equal to twice it's displacement in power. For example, look at the MC21 (Honda NSR 250) and the MC18 (Honda CBR 250R). Both pump out the same horsepower, ~45 BHP.

Also, while two strokes are great, they're mostly VERY peaky, with a narrow powerband. For instance, the NSR 150 is only over 20 RWHP for a span of 9 MPH (56-65).

Finally, the simplicity of a two stroke is outweighed, in my not so humble opinion , by the constant need for care. Filling up their oil, cleaning out RC valves, having the cylinder rebored, etc. With a four stroke, the only thing you need to do is change the oil every 8 000 km or so if using quality stuff, and adjust the valves every 10 000 or so. Seems much cheaper in the long run.

However, for cheap thrills you can't be a pristine example of a two stroke. When they do finally come onto boil, and you're hanging on for dear life praying to every diety that you can think of, just makes the red-blooded man grin like a buffon.

[dotcom]

i would be interested if they had they had the green books, my wife has been complaining about not having transportation... pm me with a price

Not need PM.

I paid 90,000 for mine. It had never been run on a Thai road & was newly repainted.

A full brand new legit book would have boosted the price to 105,000.

I have had no problem renewing my plate.

Checked the mileage today 14 km per liter. It has only seen 95 gasoline. Motul oil every 3000 km plus filter. I'm on my third rear tire (never skid it).

Legit plates for liter bikes run 80,000.

[dotcom]

http://classifieds.thaivisa.com/automotive...-400-10780.html

[LivinLOS]

Thats an amazingly low price on a legit book ?? +15k to the price for a legal book ??

[dotcom]

Says all inclusive. Probably has a dodgy green book. Who cares?

Edited October 2, 2008 by dotcom

[LivinLOS]

Sorry should have quoted.. I meant on yours..

90 bookless or 105 with a 'legit' book..

[submaniac]

I've seen HP numbers for the NSR 150 floating around that indicate 37 HP, making your statement valid about it being of higher output than the Ninja; if they were grounded in reality.

The official specifications from Honda indicate that the NSR makes 39.5 PS (roughly equivalent to 37 HP), with a top speed of 200 km/h. Magazine testing managed to get the bike up to 180 km/h, and it was speculated that the actual horsepower of the NSR was in the neighborhood of 28-31. Performance specs

However, Tyga had a project bike, and bone stock it produced only 23 RWHP.

Dyno results are twitchy, and you cannot base the horsepower of an entire model of car or motorcycle on one single dyno test of one particular vehicle. A sampling of multiple vehicles is necessary to determine a mean or average horsepower result of a particular model. Two cars or motorcycles of the same year, same model, same options, etc., will give two different dyno results. Even if tested on the same equipment on the same date, the dyno results will never be exactly the same. Dyno testing is good to see what amount of power a particular modification to an engine (like new exhaust) will add to a particular engine, but it is not a very accurate way to tell how much power an engine in an entire model of vehicles makes. There are always manufacturing variations on the construction of an engine. In the process of 'balancing and blueprinting' an engine the engine is taken apart, and the pistons and connecting rods are weighed, and weight/material removed from the pistons and con rods so that all of them are identical in weight. Similarly the crankshaft is ground and resurfaced so it is perfectly smooth (no high points, or low points). Balancing engine vibration, and increases horsepower. Due to the cost involved, manufacturers very rarely balance their engines. The result is some engines will be 'off' from the ideal balance, while some (through accident) will be at or close to the ideal balance. The later engines will produce more power than the former which, while within manufacturing tolerences, will be off and produce less power than if they were at their ideal. In addition to manufacturing variations, there are so many other variables involved in dyno testing a car or motorcycle to make Tyga's single dyno run of an NSR applicable to ALL NSR's. Factors such as the ambient temperature can affect horsepower results (cooler air is denser and their is more oxygen in the cylinder resulting in higher power than if the vehicle is tested on a hot day). The elevation that the dyno run is made at can affect the power result (a vehicle tested at or below sea level will produce more power than a vehicle tested in the less dense air of a higher elevation--such as Denver Colorado). The fuel used can also affect the performance runs, and high octane benzine is going to make more power than gasahol. There are too many unknown variables in Tygas test to say that ALL NSR'S make 23 whp; all that can really be ascertained from the test is that Tyga modifications did add power to the engine.

Extrapolating a 15% drivetrain power loss, you arrive at a 27 BHP. Even after doing all their performance mods to it, it only made it up to a 29 RWHP (34 BHP), which indicates that a person who owns a Ninja would only have to increase their power by 3%, and they'd be at the same level as Tyga's hopped up bike is at.

The NSR has a claimed horsepower of 37 bhp from the manufacturer; the 250 Ninja has a claimed hp figure of 33 bhp, also from the manufacturer. You are, in essence, claiming that Honda's ratings are a bit 'optimistic'. I would tend to agree with you as the maufacturers really are 'optimistic' on their hp claims. But I would also say that Kawasaki is a bit 'optomistic' on their figures as well. So your claim that a Ninja owner 'would only have to increase their power by 3% and they'd be at the same level as Tyga's hopped up bike is at" has no merit, because the Ninja really isn't at the same level that the manufacturer claims it is. Your comparing the actual (and poor) dyno results of a real NSR against the fictionalized claims by Kawasaki of what the Ninja makes. Get the 250 Ninja on a dyno, and let's see the results at the wheel before we compare the actual results of a NSR to it

There are always exceptions to the adage that the 2 stroke is equal to twice it's displacement in power. For example, look at the MC21 (Honda NSR 250) and the MC18 (Honda CBR 250R). Both pump out the same horsepower, ~45 BHP.

Once again you are switching between manufacturers claims and real world dyno results. You use the actual dyno results from Tyga to attack the NSR 150, but when you discuss other bikes you use the manufacturer's claimed power. I think that Honda intentionally gave pessimistic hp figures for the NSR while it was optimistic on the output of the CBR 250R. Honda, despite winning world championships on the two stroke NSR, has been trying to ditch two stroke bikes for many many years. And this was an opportunity to tell the buying public 'hey, switch to our 4 strokes because they make as much power as the two strokes'. I would really like to see some (multiple) dyno runs on both a 250 NSR and CBR before we discuss this. The CBR may actually make the claimed power, but I think the NSR 250 would probably make more.

Also, while two strokes are great, they're mostly VERY peaky, with a narrow powerband. For instance, the NSR 150 is only over 20 RWHP for a span of 9 MPH (56-65).

This is better than your CBR 150. It will NEVER EVER EVER be over 20 whp; because it only makes a 'claimed' 17 hp at the crank. I wonder what the CBR 150 actually makes at the crank, and what it makes at the wheel.

Finally, the simplicity of a two stroke is outweighed, in my not so humble opinion , by the constant need for care. Filling up their oil, cleaning out RC valves, having the cylinder rebored, etc. With a four stroke, the only thing you need to do is change the oil every 8 000 km or so if using quality stuff, and adjust the valves every 10 000 or so. Seems much cheaper in the long run.

There is no 'constant' need for care. When I get fuel, yes I check the oil. But what kind of inconvenience is that? It's like checking the washer fluid on a car, or the oil level on the car. Reboring the cylinder? Well that is an inconvenient, but you only need to do that if you are rebuilding the engine completely, and your going to have to do that when rebuilding your four stroke too. Cleaning ou the RC valve? The engine will run with a dirty RC valve; the RC valve is only for going into the higher rpms. But cleaning out a valve is not that difficult. I think it is more of an inconvenience to have to adjust your valves, which a two stroke does not have. And on a four stroke you will eventually have do do a complete valve job which involves removing the cylinder head. And you four stroke owners have to worry about the 'money $hift', and whacking the piston against your valves. The two strokes love to be at high rpms.

However, for cheap thrills you can't be a pristine example of a two stroke. When they do finally come onto boil, and you're hanging on for dear life praying to every diety that you can think of, just makes the red-blooded man grin like a buffon.

Yes, I do grin like a buffoon, and I do often find myself wondering how this tiny little POS bike I have manage to go so fast.

[BigBikeBKK]

Says all inclusive. Probably has a dodgy green book. Who cares?

Um, my TWO buddies who had their bikes confiscated (a CBR600 and a Yamaha XJ400) by the BiB here in BKK because their recycled green books didn't pass muster care... I mean, after all, where do you think the police get their bikes? You don't imagine they actually buy them?! (You can substitute "Bike" with just about any word and the same truism will apply)

Sorry, but throwing down a chunk of cash on a bike with dodgy rego is asking for trouble.

Of course, if you're loaded and don't mind losing your bike, or you have some good police connections, then no worries

Edited October 2, 2008 by BigBikeBKK

[moo9]

Hi submaniac,

Do you want to put some money on a race, your 150cc two-stroke to my stock with different ECU Honda CZ-i 110cc motorcycle? I bet 10,000 Baht I beat you in a 4 kilometer run. Not even care what you do to the 2-stroke.... With a simple modification to the ECU of the Honda CZ-i it will burn twice as much fuel and rockets you to 160km/h in a time long not seen....

Good to know that you'll have the corresponding brake power on that CZ-i

[BigBikeBKK]

Early in 2009 Kawasaki will also introduce, which likely will be the cheapest, 600cc motorcycle for Thailand the ER-6N which will "expected" cost less then 290,000 Baht.

I already told the nice folks at the Kawasaki Big Bike shop to give me a ring the minute they start accepting deposits on the ER-6N.

I love my little Ninja 250R to death, but I really miss my old CBR600F2.

My plan is to keep the Ninja 250R for city riding and use the ER-6N for touring. I'll actually prefer the look of the ER-6f:

Shouldn't be too hard to get the fairings to dress us the ER-6N

Let the Good Times Roll!

[MaiChai]

Ideal bike is a small bike with lots of power. So NSR150 makes sense. However, fuel is becoming a problem with all these biofuels. cbr150 is probably a good compromise. But then the old 2 strokers are cheap to buy secondhand. Big bikes are too cumbersome to get round the traffic (unless you want to wait at the back of a long queue of cars; in which case you might as well have driven).

Myself I have a NSR150 and a TZR150; the tzr is ideal for Bangkok since its about the same size as a cbr150 and its a blast with the extra power. The NSR is more like a big bike; less manuoverable. However I have had some problems getting decent fuel for 2strokers and they are very sensitive in this respect. Parts are cheap for both (apart from the NSR power valve bits like the servo and the control unit). When in Rome...

A friend bought a CB400 with a book; only when he do his road tax the following year did he find out it was stolen, and he had to give it back and loose the money he spent on it. He's now on a VFR400 which he bought from a reputable shop (implication is you are less likely to get a stolen bike from a shop). He bought this on finance from the shop so again, stolen bike, shop has to cover it. Well thats what he told me.

[Bard]

Wonder if Kawasaki will launch the ZX-6R after the ER-6n? and if Honda will introduce the CBR600RR... That would change a lot in Thailand if we finally can see some really bigger bikes, that would eventually kill the gray market and make bikes for anyone available. For me I am extremely happy with my 250R it is perfect in traffic and powerful enough for my usage, but for people craving more it would be good. The Ninja 250 R is a good start and I hope they open for the rest of the bunch as well here in Thailand.

[BSJ]

I've been wanting a Kawasaki Vulcan for quite a while but I do like the look of the ER-6N. And I like a good squirt down a windy road....decisions decisions!

[Bard]

Since Thailand seems to get the Euro spec bikes, the Kawasaki ZX-6R is 131 horsepower and the Honda CBR 600 RR is at 118 horsepower both would be brilliant big bikes for anyone who is into supersports, hey BigBikeBKK can you ask your friends at Kawasaki if they will launch the ZX-6R after the ER-6n I know a handful of friends who is really keen on something like that.

[BlackArtemis]

Well it depends on where you live. This can impact if you can get away with a non-registered bike. I know of plenty of 400cc bikes for 25-35k without books.

[LivinLOS]

A friend bought a CB400 with a book; only when he do his road tax the following year did he find out it was stolen, and he had to give it back and loose the money he spent on it

Surely this would have come up once the book was transferred into his name..

Simply having a book doesnt cut it.. But once the transfer is authorized then the gov is saying its legal and now yours ??

[Bard]

Surely this would have come up once the book was transferred into his name..

Simply having a book doesnt cut it.. But once the transfer is authorized then the gov is saying its legal and now yours ??

I had a CBR 600 RR and it ended up confiscated due to the books here, I was a sucker and the book was fake so there you go it can look all legit for us but be all wrong it had transfer stamps and you name it all fake. So I lost mine and the money spent on it, and therefore I have an aversion personally to dodgy bikes. Let's face it I live in Rayong and there is no way I would ever loose my bike here, my mistake was to travel to Pattaya with it during a clampdown so that was that. As people previously have mentioned it depends on where you live and where you go with the bike. Clampdowns happen in Chonburi province in particular Pattaya every now and again, Phuket and Bangkok the rest of the country is less controlled, and you can pay yourself out in the outskirts. When they clamped down on my bike the Bangkok Police was there to supervise it and I could not pay it out. I was pissed and when I talked to the seller he started to laugh, what can you do? TIT...

[wrathfultalon]

Surely this would have come up once the book was transferred into his name..

Simply having a book doesnt cut it.. But once the transfer is authorized then the gov is saying its legal and now yours ??

I had a CBR 600 RR and it ended up confiscated due to the books here, I was a sucker and the book was fake so there you go it can look all legit for us but be all wrong it had transfer stamps and you name it all fake. So I lost mine and the money spent on it, and therefore I have an aversion personally to dodgy bikes. Let's face it I live in Rayong and there is no way I would ever loose my bike here, my mistake was to travel to Pattaya with it during a clampdown so that was that. As people previously have mentioned it depends on where you live and where you go with the bike. Clampdowns happen in Chonburi province in particular Pattaya every now and again, Phuket and Bangkok the rest of the country is less controlled, and you can pay yourself out in the outskirts. When they clamped down on my bike the Bangkok Police was there to supervise it and I could not pay it out. I was pissed and when I talked to the seller he started to laugh, what can you do? TIT...

Its hard to laugh when your getting a fist in mouth.

[Bard]

Surely this would have come up once the book was transferred into his name..

Simply having a book doesnt cut it.. But once the transfer is authorized then the gov is saying its legal and now yours ??

I had a CBR 600 RR and it ended up confiscated due to the books here, I was a sucker and the book was fake so there you go it can look all legit for us but be all wrong it had transfer stamps and you name it all fake. So I lost mine and the money spent on it, and therefore I have an aversion personally to dodgy bikes. Let's face it I live in Rayong and there is no way I would ever loose my bike here, my mistake was to travel to Pattaya with it during a clampdown so that was that. As people previously have mentioned it depends on where you live and where you go with the bike. Clampdowns happen in Chonburi province in particular Pattaya every now and again, Phuket and Bangkok the rest of the country is less controlled, and you can pay yourself out in the outskirts. When they clamped down on my bike the Bangkok Police was there to supervise it and I could not pay it out. I was pissed and when I talked to the seller he started to laugh, what can you do? TIT...

Its hard to laugh when your getting a fist in mouth.

Very true but from my time here I found physical expression is generally a very bad idea, the cost is very high and believe me here you are guilty until proven innocent and not the opposite which has been another very valuable lesson I have done here. So if you ever insult a Thai they can play the Police against you and unless you have some good high up friends you are on extremely thin ice, my best advice is to do a "never mind" however bad it feels.

[BigBikeBKK]

Since Thailand seems to get the Euro spec bikes, the Kawasaki ZX-6R is 131 horsepower and the Honda CBR 600 RR is at 118 horsepower both would be brilliant big bikes for anyone who is into supersports, hey BigBikeBKK can you ask your friends at Kawasaki if they will launch the ZX-6R after the ER-6n I know a handful of friends who is really keen on something like that.

Hiya Bard,

I have asked the folks at Kawasaki when they plan to introduce other models, and honestly they didn't seem to know anything beyond the fact that the ER-6N should be launched early next year. (Like the Ninja 250R the ER-6N is also made in Thailand, so I'm sure that is why the price is so much lower than imported 600cc machines from Yamaha, Honda, etc.)

The only other "big" bike that Kawasaki currently sells in Thailand is the Vulcan, which is imported from Japan, hence the big mark-up.

Red Baron imports bigger Ninjas and they have an 08 Ninja ZX10R available right now for only 630,000฿

This sucker is way too big for me- I'll wait patiently for the ER-6N

Ride on!

[dotcom]

Thats an amazingly low price on a legit book ?? +15k to the price for a legal book ??

Sorry mate.

My cycle was 65,000 + 25,000

A brand new virgin book was gonna run 65,000 + 40,000 for a 400 cc.

My & my mate got told at the weekend that a plate for a liter bike is 80,000.

[BigBikeBKK]

Thats an amazingly low price on a legit book ?? +15k to the price for a legal book ??

Sorry mate.

My cycle was 65,000 + 25,000

A brand new virgin book was gonna run 65,000 + 40,000 for a 400 cc.

My & my mate got told at the weekend that a plate for a liter bike is 80,000.

I don't mean to nit pick, but a plate will cost you next to nothing- Most of my friends that are riding with dodgy Green Books still have number plates.

But a plate with a proper LEGAL Tabien Rot (aka Green Book) will cost you dearly in both time and money.

[dave_boo]

The official specifications from Honda indicate that the NSR makes 39.5 PS (roughly equivalent to 37 HP), with a top speed of 200 km/h. Magazine testing managed to get the bike up to 180 km/h, and it was speculated that the actual horsepower of the NSR was in the neighborhood of 28-31. Performance specs

Which is in the neighbourhood of what an extrapolation of Tyga's dyno run gives you.

Dyno results are twitchy, and you cannot base the horsepower of an entire model of car or motorcycle on one single dyno test of one particular vehicle. A sampling of multiple vehicles is necessary to determine a mean or average horsepower result of a particular model. Two cars or motorcycles of the same year, same model, same options, etc., will give two different dyno results. Even if tested on the same equipment on the same date, the dyno results will never be exactly the same. Dyno testing is good to see what amount of power a particular modification to an engine (like new exhaust) will add to a particular engine, but it is not a very accurate way to tell how much power an engine in an entire model of vehicles makes. There are always manufacturing variations on the construction of an engine. In the process of 'balancing and blueprinting' an engine the engine is taken apart, and the pistons and connecting rods are weighed, and weight/material removed from the pistons and con rods so that all of them are identical in weight. Similarly the crankshaft is ground and resurfaced so it is perfectly smooth (no high points, or low points). Balancing engine vibration, and increases horsepower. Due to the cost involved, manufacturers very rarely balance their engines. The result is some engines will be 'off' from the ideal balance, while some (through accident) will be at or close to the ideal balance. The later engines will produce more power than the former which, while within manufacturing tolerences, will be off and produce less power than if they were at their ideal. In addition to manufacturing variations, there are so many other variables involved in dyno testing a car or motorcycle to make Tyga's single dyno run of an NSR applicable to ALL NSR's. Factors such as the ambient temperature can affect horsepower results (cooler air is denser and their is more oxygen in the cylinder resulting in higher power than if the vehicle is tested on a hot day). The elevation that the dyno run is made at can affect the power result (a vehicle tested at or below sea level will produce more power than a vehicle tested in the less dense air of a higher elevation--such as Denver Colorado). The fuel used can also affect the performance runs, and high octane benzine is going to make more power than gasahol. There are too many unknown variables in Tygas test to say that ALL NSR'S make 23 whp; all that can really be ascertained from the test is that Tyga modifications did add power to the engine.

I understand about the variabilities in dynos. However, as stated above, Tyga's run and an actual test come with in one HP of each other; this is obviously a statistically insignificant sample but the onus lies on the proof not the repudiation of the statement.

The NSR has a claimed horsepower of 37 bhp from the manufacturer; the 250 Ninja has a claimed hp figure of 33 bhp, also from the manufacturer. You are, in essence, claiming that Honda's ratings are a bit 'optimistic'. I would tend to agree with you as the maufacturers really are 'optimistic' on their hp claims. But I would also say that Kawasaki is a bit 'optomistic' on their figures as well. So your claim that a Ninja owner 'would only have to increase their power by 3% and they'd be at the same level as Tyga's hopped up bike is at" has no merit, because the Ninja really isn't at the same level that the manufacturer claims it is. Your comparing the actual (and poor) dyno results of a real NSR against the fictionalized claims by Kawasaki of what the Ninja makes. Get the 250 Ninja on a dyno, and let's see the results at the wheel before we compare the actual results of a NSR to it

Everyone knows by now that I'm not a Ninja 250 fan. Far from it. However, it seems that the Ninja can essentially match the performance of the NSR 150 (at an extremely greater price!). I'll allow that all manufacturers are optimistic in their claims, however, Honda wasn't only optimistic, but outright liars. 137% rating over reality is hard to swallow. And since we've established that a Ninja WILL make it to 180, it seems obvious that it makes similar horsepower to what a NSR 150 will output. Which co-incidentally is close to what Kawasaki's claiming, much closer than the spread between claimed and actual NSR 150 ratings.

And I've been trying to get a Thai model Kawasaki on the Dyno. Specifically to find out whether or not the whole "gain 28% more HP" by slipping on a new exhaust is possible.

Once again you are switching between manufacturers claims and real world dyno results. You use the actual dyno results from Tyga to attack the NSR 150, but when you discuss other bikes you use the manufacturer's claimed power. I think that Honda intentionally gave pessimistic hp figures for the NSR while it was optimistic on the output of the CBR 250R. Honda, despite winning world championships on the two stroke NSR, has been trying to ditch two stroke bikes for many many years. And this was an opportunity to tell the buying public 'hey, switch to our 4 strokes because they make as much power as the two strokes'. I would really like to see some (multiple) dyno runs on both a 250 NSR and CBR before we discuss this. The CBR may actually make the claimed power, but I think the NSR 250 would probably make more.

If I could find stock dyno runs for each bike, I'd post them. Perhpas your 'google-foo' is better than mine and you can link to some.

This is better than your CBR 150. It will NEVER EVER EVER be over 20 whp; because it only makes a 'claimed' 17 hp at the crank. I wonder what the CBR 150 actually makes at the crank, and what it makes at the wheel.

I didn't see anyone comparing the CBR 150 to the NSR. However, if someone could provide an address to a dyno station in BKK, I'd be willing to take up your challenge. 20 RWHP only requires 24 BHP, and I'm sure that can be reached. If a CBR 600 can reach 115+, I'm sure that an engine a quarter its size can reach 24 BHP.

There is no 'constant' need for care. When I get fuel, yes I check the oil. But what kind of inconvenience is that? It's like checking the washer fluid on a car, or the oil level on the car. Reboring the cylinder? Well that is an inconvenient, but you only need to do that if you are rebuilding the engine completely, and your going to have to do that when rebuilding your four stroke too. Cleaning ou the RC valve? The engine will run with a dirty RC valve; the RC valve is only for going into the higher rpms. But cleaning out a valve is not that difficult. I think it is more of an inconvenience to have to adjust your valves, which a two stroke does not have. And on a four stroke you will eventually have do do a complete valve job which involves removing the cylinder head. And you four stroke owners have to worry about the 'money $hift', and whacking the piston against your valves. The two strokes love to be at high rpms.

I don't have much experience with two strokes, but it was my understanding that the cylinder rebores happened as much as twice or more frequently than required in a four stroke engine.

I don't consider leaving your RC Valve dirty an option. If your two stroke doesn't reach those higher RPMs, you may as well be riding a Wave since all your power is in those higher RPMs. I don't know who redoes their valves more than once in the life of a four stroke engine(if that frequently); I'd imagine that having to remove your head/pistons/etc and either rebore or replace your cylinder sleeve is much more labour intensive and frequent.

You did touch on a major point though; interference engines. Notice that not all engines are designed so that when things go out of whack the domes of the pistons will slap the valves. However, it's too easy to check the timing chain, and some bikes do away with a chain in favour of a gear system!

Yes, I do grin like a buffoon, and I do often find myself wondering how this tiny little POS bike I have manage to go so fast.

[submaniac]

Once again Dave, you make good arguments! Now I think I need to find less intelligent people to challenge.

[dave_boo]

Once again Dave, you make good arguments! Now I think I need to find less intelligent people to challenge.

Don't get me wrong; I would love for the two stroke to continue, variety being the spice of life. I even thought about sourcing a NSR SP and jury rigging up its engine and swing arm on my CBR. However, considering the inherent problems with two stroke's future I gave that idea up.

With direct injection, catalytic convertors, and modern ECUs, there's no reason that a two stroke can not be as clean as a four stroke. The milage will obviously never be in the same league, perhaps that's why strides aren't being made in their development. Furthermore, a two stroke only makes sense in my mind in a smaller bike. Once you get up past 250cc, a two stoke simply becomes a motorised coffin filler for the majority of people.

And there in probably lies the reason that manufacturers are getting away from them. All that modern stuff to bring the two stroke into the 21^st century will easily eat up the cost savings that people are looking for in a smaller bike.

If I was king of the world, there would be a couple of engines that I would be interested in seeing produced. A cheap rotary for smaller bikes, and a min-turbine mated to a generator powering electric motors for larger vehicles. A rotary produces insane amounts of power for its size, IIRC the one used in the RX-8 pumps out ~250BHP on a 1,3L (scaling it back to 130cc would probably net well over 20 BHP). A turbine/generator combo would suit large bikes since the power deliver from the electric motor(s) would be consistent along with that fabulous torque. Weight could easily be kept the same as modern engines, and turbines really don't give much of a rat's ass what you feed them. Seems like a win on all accounts.

Unfortunately I'm not king of the world, in fact I have problems getting the wife to go along with much, much smaller ideas.......