Do Thais Lack A Developed Ego?

[toastwars]

Sbk,

All I can say being a foreigner in this country is that there are good days and bad days.  Adjusting to a culture and system dramatically different than your what you are use to can be challenging at times.  I know that when I change the way I view things and let go of my ego things tend to flow better.

I do however get tired of the inflated egos and attitudes of some of the farang here.  I myself am guilty of complaining at times.  But, come on some of the stuff you hear is simply racist.

sadly true.

[kat]

I really don't think noticing unavoidable differences and analyzing them responsibly is racist. And besides, we are discussing culture here, not race.

On the contrary, I think trying to analyze the unarticulated patterns of difference in culture is intelligent and a sign of original thought. After all, most of these patterns will be the things that will not be readily displayed. Just because they are not articulated, does not mean they do not exist. And just because an outsider articulates these differences does not mean they are malacious. Maybe they're just honest about their experiences and observations; or maybe just more observant.

Whether we like it or not, there are differences. Why? This is where the interest, and quite possibly, the truth lie for me. Not the knee-jerk mantra of how we are all alike, or how the same things occur everywhere, or if we just let go of our egos and go with the flow or practice non-attachment everything will be all right. Again, it is much harder and controversial (and considerably more unpopular) to air an original thought than it is to repeat philosophical mantras. In a sense, yes, if we just forget everything we know and practice non-attachment in the way that we perceive the locals to practice, we will have an easier time. But that doesn't really mean that everything is all right, or that non-attachment is even a higher moral or philosophical "way".

You may find Falang Pan's observations unpalatable or disturbing to think about, but that may have something to do with your own discomfort of the topic or inexperience or lack of exposure to the issue.

Or maybe not. However, simply repeating texts that are lauded to be the "right" texts do not necessarily make you "right".

I think this topic is either a little too deep, honest, or threatening for this forum.

[kat]

How interesting Ravisher. You didn't understand my post, but don't seem to have a problem understanding everyone else's.

You seem to exemplify someone who has all the "right" words and none of the right actions. No matter, since I have learned to skip most of your posts by now anyway.

"Answer" to your question: It is now an integrated discussion which has moved beyond the yes or no thread or topic starter.

[Darknight]

it's still a load of <deleted> for all i care

[sbk]

Sbk,

All I can say being a foreigner in this country is that there are good days and bad days.  Adjusting to a culture and system dramatically different than your what you are use to can be challenging at times.  I know that when I change the way I view things and let go of my ego things tend to flow better.

I do however get tired of the inflated egos and attitudes of some of the farang here.  I myself am guilty of complaining at times.  But, come on some of the stuff you hear is simply racist.

Actually Padma, I was entirely agreeing with you. I have lived here continuously for 16 years and yes, there are still times I rail against the things that annoy me. But, as you so wisely said, you can't change the world, only how you react to it. I found myself practically developing ulcers from stressing over things I could not change. I come from an AA family and found that some of the things I learned growing up in AA helped me alot here. Accept the things you cannot change, have the courage to change the things you can and the wisdom to know the difference

The issue I have with this thread isn't the attempt at a sociological or psychological analysis of Thai people but the underlying whinge I hear from many of the posters.

[Falang Pan]

The issue I have with this thread isn't the attempt at a sociological or psychological analysis of Thai people but the underlying whinge I hear from many of the posters.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am hoping that through deeper understanding, there will be more possibility for love and patience. After all, if my expectations are unmeetable because I can't understand my lover, then it will be harder to love her. Yes, it sounds like complaining to notice that someone has less than western average cognitive development, but it is just noticing patterns.

Anti intillectuals piss me off. Everyone is a philosopher - the only choice we have is to be a good one or a poor one.

[Falang Pan]

As for putting on a face that  is at odds with ones feelings can and 'does' lead to a fractured self that is out of touch with ones own feelings. This is not true. I, as a casino manager do this every day of my life at work.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As I mentioned, yes, play acting can be post conventional, and one can act while at the same time being fully in touch with a cohesive self. I suspect that the reason you can do that, is because you dont always play act. Sometimes you are direct and sincere. It is important for you to be so, and to know when you are acting. You don't focus only on face - you also have other, deeper priorities.

>My 'experience' with with a vast range of people, types, cultures etc. etc. has taught me far more than anything I could read in any book on psychology.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A pleasantly snide remark to that would be: how do you know? What book on psychology did you read? Ya, sure, experience counts. But don't piss on psychology.

[Covertjay]

Covertjay,

Afraid to say I haven't experienced what you have. 

But I do know if you are looking for something to complain about you will find it no matter where you are in the world.  Nothing that you've said negatively about Thai that couldn't be said about any culture anywhere in the world. 

Sometimes a really good sense of humour helps.

Someone once told me to view life like a 3 ring circus and enjoy the acts.

I try to do that when I find myself bitching and complaining. 

Can't change the world but you can change the way you react to it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm just discussing my experiences. Don't take offence. And it's not the same everywhere.That's a simple justification to be inert. As Thais are unwilling to discuss unpleasant things often we use forums like this. This is the only way progress will happen- by addressing the issues.

I love the nonviolent ways of Thais. Something we don't do well in the West. But, we do problem solving and open debate of hard issues much better. All cultures have their virtues.

[a man with a plan]

you know, falang pan... you're quite a tolerant guy. You've taken a fair bit of flak here and it doesn't seem to bother you. Well, my compliments on your monk like gentle hand approach.

[padma]

QUOTE(kat @ 2004-11-30 20:37:29)

I really don't think noticing unavoidable differences and analyzing them responsibly is racist. And besides, we are discussing culture here, not race.

Kat,

Thai's are a race of people.

and we are not discussing culture here. Falang Pan seems to be taking his personal issues with a few "Thai" women in his past to judge a whole race of people. That may be done back home as well accept it wouldn't be Thais, it would probably be women in general. Saying that Thai's lack a developed ego is a racist statement.

[padma]

Farang Pan,

Sorry you are dating a girl with an undeveloped ego? Perhaps you should ask yourself why you are attracted to her as you seem to find her intellectually and morally repulsive.

[Boon Mee]

I think this topic is either a little too deep, honest, or threatening for this forum.

That's what I said back in post #12 on the first page of this exercise in pop psychology...

"The topic does get a little deep for TV but it has it's merits"

Boon Mee

[jubjib]

I do agree with Falang Pan's comments on thais' undeveloped ego.As a thai i think i know thai people a bit better than u guys do and I hardly know a thai who would actually say i believe this is right and im going to do it no matter what.They all are like i am going to do this cos everyone else does it!! which drives me crazy sometimes.Can u imagine living ur life for 60 millions people u dont even know?Thats what most of my thai friends happily do everyday.I say **** them all I do whatever i want...well sadly this is an idea none of my thai friends can understand.

[Thetyim]

Can somebody please enlighten me as to the CORRECT collective noun for &lt;deleted&gt;.

Some are using 'bunch', some 'load' and even 'pair '

I wish to post here but I am afraid of making a grammatical eror which may damage my ego.

[Wolfie]

Isnt it a brace of b*llocks?

Or a gaggle?

Or it might just be a pair...?

[Darknight]

Farang Pan,

Sorry you are dating a girl with an undeveloped ego?  Perhaps you should ask yourself why you are attracted to her as you seem to find her intellectually and morally repulsive.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My thought exactly, the type of people you attract says more about you then about them.

The only thing you can hold against thais is that the lack logical thinking brought on by bad education. It makes them think only one step at a time and also hinders them in getting "the big picture".

this comes purely from education by teaching logical assumptions.

Try telling telling a thai That he speaks a stupid language invented a thousand years ago and not changed for the better anymore.

You will immediatly get to meet his "nonexistent" EGO They actually have a very large EGO, i would say.

[Boon Mee]

Try telling telling a thai That he speaks a stupid language invented a thousand years ago and not changed for the better anymore.

Never heard of anyone even thinking of uttering that remark!

Thai, and most especially Bangkok Thai is evolving as fast or perhaps even faster than English out of California. Just check out all the new slang terms that originate in BKK and find themselves in everyday usage a year or so later.

[meadish_sweetball]

I would only like to know what your point is, Falang Pan. Even if your theory, which I understand as "more Thais than Westerners have an undeveloped ego" is right, what is the point?

My personal theory:

Can't help but thinking that your unconventional views and rather blunt way of communicating your thoughts, feelings and beliefs are the main causes of your relationship troubles. You do not seem to be happy in Thai society and you are therefore trying to find others who reinforce your view that people and phenomena external to yourself are at fault. You seem to say that you, and your culture, are developed. Your girlfriends, Thais and Asians in general are undeveloped, childlike and sheepish.

You do not wish to adapt to the reality you perceive. The million dollar question must then be:

Why don't you leave and go back to a place where the culture is more accomodating to your penchant for polyamory, straight communication and whatever else?

The likelihood that you will change anything about Thai behaviour with your unsmooth way of communicating is rather small.

[kanatip]

I've said it before but it bears repeating.  Many Thai girls don't act with integrity because there is no integrity.  As westerners we take for granted that anybody who can say the word "I" has a self.  But the ego in this culture doesn't get a chance to develop.  What gets developed is the public exterior persona, but there is no corresponding interior persona.  There is no there there. 

We take for granted that a person has some sort of unified interiority.  A self.  It is so hard to get it that in many cases, there is no there there.  No single interior unifying process who exists from day to day body capable of keeping a promise.  It is a very momentary, immediate self, not capable of what in the west we term integrity.  That is a higher level of cognition that this culture does not emphasise or develop.  This is very foreign to westerners, and we think that our girl is lying or foolish or a cheat etc.  Ya, she is, but she couldn't change if she wanted to.  There is no "she" to change.  All she has is her immediate experience, with no unifying person behind the mask to follow through on any promise to change.

An ego is not a form of disease, but one level of cognition that integrates our experiences and our actions.  The reason we complain that Thais act without integrity is not because of differing cultural values, it is because in many cases, the Thai person doesn't have integrity.  Doesn't even have a developed ego.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Does Falang Plan Lack A Developed Ego?

[Falang Pan]

Farang Pan,

Sorry you are dating a girl with an undeveloped ego?  Perhaps you should ask yourself why you are attracted to her as you seem to find her intellectually and morally repulsive.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My thought exactly, the type of people you attract says more about you then about them.

The only thing you can hold against thais is that the lack logical thinking brought on by bad education. It makes them think only one step at a time and also hinders them in getting "the big picture".

this comes purely from education by teaching logical assumptions.

Try telling telling a thai That he speaks a stupid language invented a thousand years ago and not changed for the better anymore.

You will immediatly get to meet his "nonexistent" EGO They actually have a very large EGO, i would say.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You've got me pegged. Thinking with my dick.

But look, I'm 38, and aging fast due in part to excessive drinking and womanizing. She is 24 and pretty hot. Small and slim. The sex is always passionate and intense and we go for hours (and hours) without any loss of interest or intensity. We are completely comfortable together sexually, and more than that deeply interested in each other sexually. We eat each other up. Our bodies are in love, and she has a good one. She'd be a great receptacle for a little love child. She'd be happy to take care of him herself, if need be. And yes, actually, the little bitch does love me - at least she is also very attached to me in the similar body centered way that I am attached to her.

Yes, I wish I didn't think with my dick, and had held out for a peer. I was able to have sex with this girl/woman for 10 months without falling in love. In the end, we just went for it, ###### the torpedos. I'm a complete ###### idiot to do so, and you are right to point that out. But which of us wouldn't?

Why do I "attract" a woman with a childlike sense of self? I "attract" all sorts of women. One young extremely attractive genius dreams of me nightly. She chose to marry the man who could provide security, but most likely will be with me one day. She is all that and 20 times more. Better person than me, in many ways. I have been fortunate enough to have extremely high quality mates. And middling, and poor. I'll ###### anything that moves - I happen to have an overpoweringly strong sex drive. I'll seduce a chicken if I have to. That has nothing to do with recognizing patterns of cognition. Some people organize the world in ways that seem foreign to me, and if I am to properly love (understand) them, and properly listen, I'd better ###### well figure out how their heads works.

And the cause for Thais underdevelopment really needen't need mentioning. Yes, of course there are causes. I put all down to the need to protect face, not to the poor education. The poor education is a symptom of the need to save face, not a cause of it. Yes, most of this is cultural. So what - it is still there. No need for excuses. It just is. No problem.

Regarding Thais having a larger ego, yes, I think your language is more on the money than mine. Thais tend, on average, to be more narcisistic. I was trying, poorly, to talk about the development of ego from pre-conventional to conventional to post-conventional, and to point out that it takes a grown up level of ego development to be capable of acting with what we call "integrity". You are correct to point out that an underdeveloped ego is actually less able to integrate criticism in a healthy way, and will lash out. It's about integration. A child-like sense of self is fragmented, like the partitions of an orange. In the bedroom, it's "I love you! I am your wife!" At the disco it's "go away, I will see you tomorrow. My friends don't want me to be in love with you and I am having fun flirting tonight."

Edited December 1, 2004 by Falang Pan

[Boon Mee]

Oh boy...this is starting to sound like Scampy and his over-rationalizations again...

[Falang Pan]

Oh boy...this is starting to sound like Scampy and his over-rationalizations again...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I just erased my previous scathing reply, which was:

"Face it Boon Me, you are an anti-intillectual who despises any type of generalization more complex than "&lt;deleted&gt;".

Oh boy, aren't you the clever one for being able to notice that you have no idea what any of this means, and therefore that it has no bearing whatsoever on your tiny little conception of what is life. Clever you to point that out."

as I probably misconstrued your comment.

You were probably trying to say that my arguments were based on trying to put into context one small incident that needn't such an elaborate explanation. If that was it, then your assumption is condescending and inacurate.

Edited December 1, 2004 by Falang Pan

[Falang Pan]

I would only like to know what your point is, Falang Pan. Even if your theory, which I understand as "more Thais than Westerners have an undeveloped ego" is right, what is the point?

My personal theory:

Can't help but thinking that your unconventional views and rather blunt way of communicating your thoughts, feelings and beliefs are the main causes of your relationship troubles. You do not seem to be happy in Thai society and you are therefore trying to find others who reinforce your view that people and phenomena external to yourself are at fault. You seem to say that you, and your culture, are developed. Your girlfriends, Thais and Asians in general are undeveloped, childlike and sheepish.

You do not wish to adapt to the reality you perceive. The million dollar question must then be:

Why don't you leave and go back to a place where the culture is more accomodating to your penchant for polyamory, straight communication and whatever else?

The likelihood that you will change anything about Thai behaviour with your unsmooth way of communicating is rather small.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fault. Fault. Fault.

Alright, let's simplify things. Everything is my fault, and I take all the blame.

Are we still allowed to talk about the various levels of development, and how people see the world differently? Or is it my "fault" that this topic is of value to me?

Why don't I leave, why don't I adapt. Well, trying to understand the situation is trying to adapt to it. I'm no narcisistic ostrich, content with mouthing the mantra "any unpleasant experience is due to my own attachment". I am human being, in interaction with a real external world that is not completely within my own control. I need to interact, not merely adapt. I need to understand. Intellect is one tool in the larger toolchest that is of immense value and ability. One, among many. I use it.

Yes, I will eventually go, and yes, I do want a peer, and will look for one. In the meantime, there is no need to be mute.

If my communication style with women was as you claim, it's not likely I'd be able to attract and keep the lovers that I have. I don't bother to try to talk at this level with them. I don't even bother. I talk in ways that are meaningful to them, not merely to me. That is why I need to know how to be heard - that is what this thread is about - how to translate between vastly different world views.

Edited December 1, 2004 by Falang Pan

[davethailand]

I would only like to know what your point is, Falang Pan. Even if your theory, which I understand as "more Thais than Westerners have an undeveloped ego" is right, what is the point?

My personal theory:

Can't help but thinking that your unconventional views and rather blunt way of communicating your thoughts, feelings and beliefs are the main causes of your relationship troubles. You do not seem to be happy in Thai society and you are therefore trying to find others who reinforce your view that people and phenomena external to yourself are at fault. You seem to say that you, and your culture, are developed. Your girlfriends, Thais and Asians in general are undeveloped, childlike and sheepish.

You do not wish to adapt to the reality you perceive. The million dollar question must then be:

Why don't you leave and go back to a place where the culture is more accomodating to your penchant for polyamory, straight communication and whatever else?

The likelihood that you will change anything about Thai behaviour with your unsmooth way of communicating is rather small.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fault. Fault. Fault.

Alright, let's simplify things. Everything is my fault, and I take all the blame.

Are we still allowed to talk about the various levels of development, and how people see the world differently? Or is it my "fault" that this topic is of value to me?

Why don't I leave, why don't I adapt. Well, trying to understand the situation is trying to adapt to it. I'm no narcisistic ostrich, content with mouthing the mantra "any unpleasant experience is due to my own attachment". I am human being, in interaction with a real external world that is not completely within my own control. I need to interact, not merely adapt. I need to understand. Intellect is one tool in the larger toolchest that is of immense value and ability. One, among many. I use it.

Yes, I will eventually go, and yes, I do want a peer, and will look for one. In the meantime, there is no need to be mute.

If my communication style with women was as you claim, it's not likely I'd be able to attract and keep the lovers that I have. I don't bother to try to talk at this level with them. I don't even bother. I talk in ways that are meaningful to them, not merely to me. That is why I need to know how to be heard - that is what this thread is about - how to translate between vastly different world views.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ohh &lt;deleted&gt;

are you still rambling on?

[Falang Pan]

Ohh &lt;deleted&gt;

are you still rambling on?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Doesn't it bother you that the depth of your thoughts can be condenced into smiley icons? Don't you yearn for more than that? Don't you wish there was a smiley icon of an upright middle finger? You could just post that, over and over.

[kat]

Quote Ravisher:

I am sorry if you are offenced kat, but I really did not understand that particular post. My English is not half as good as yours... and I was off to a bad start in not knowing what "Unarticulated patterns of difference" are, or meant. And for me.. your writing style is not easy to follow. Especially with some sentances of 40 words.. Also, words like 'exemplify' I have to look up. Then I wonder why you did not say, "You seem like sombody who... " or 'seem typical of'... Anyway, it is not your problem that I don't understand your written English. And I won't loose any sleep knowing that you skip most of my posts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ravisher: If English is indeed your second language, then you had me fooled. You use it as if it is your first. And I interpreted your comment as condescension rather than sincerity. You didn't seem to have a problem understanding posts that were more complex than mine. Anyway, I'll take you at your word - you really didn't understand my post. I'm glad you're not losing any sleep.

QUOTE(kat @ 2004-11-30 20:37:29)

I really don't think noticing unavoidable differences and analyzing them responsibly is racist.  And besides, we are discussing culture here, not race. 

Kat,

Thai's are a race of people.

and we are not discussing culture here.  Falang Pan seems to be taking his personal issues with a few "Thai" women in his past to judge a whole race of people. That may be done back home as well accept it wouldn't be Thais, it would probably be women in general.  Saying that Thai's lack a developed ego is a racist statement.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Padma:

I don't mean to disagree with you directly, but with the general approach of smoothing over all differences with either dog-eared politically correct dogma or a one-size-fits-all spiritual, religous, or philosophical canon.

Thais are not a "race" of people. That would be like saying the French are a "race", Canuks a different "race", and Americans another. As much as some of us would like this to be true, it's not. Thai is a nationality and a culture. Asian is their race, just like the Vietnamese, Koreans, Lao, and Burmese. To be more specific, there are Southeast Asians, Central Asians, East Asians, and South Asians. Even though all of these regions are in Asia and therefore its people are of the Asian race, their cultures, histories, and ethnographies are different. Thus, we can discuss similarities and differences within cultures, and within the Asian race just as we can discuss differences among white Europeans and North Americans.

I do agree with Falang Pan's comments on thais' undeveloped ego.As a thai i think i know thai people a bit better than u guys do and I hardly know a thai who would actually say i believe this is right and im going to do it no matter what.They all are like i am going to do this cos everyone else does it!! which drives me crazy sometimes.Can u imagine living ur life for 60 millions people u dont even know?Thats what most of my thai friends happily do everyday.I say ****  them all I do whatever i want...well sadly this is an idea none of my thai friends can understand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jubjib: There are also books and countless articles and columns written by Thai intellectuals and journalists dealing with this issue quite regularly. I think many outsiders think that it is impolite to overanalyze another culture too rigoursly, and therefore refrain from doing so. However, it is simply impossible to live in a completely foreign culture for very long without comparing differences. Failure, refusal, or disapproval to analyze differences in an honest or responsible way is a sort of overcompensation or guilt. Many foreigners and immigrants do the same thing (compare differences) when they emigrate to the west and this is their right.

[kat]

I think this topic is either a little too deep, honest, or threatening for this forum.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's what I said back in post #12 on the first page of this exercise in pop psychology...

"The topic does get a little deep for TV but it has it's merits"

Boon Mee

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh no - Does this mean we're starting to think alike, Boon Mee?

[Falang Pan]

...But, as you so wisely said, you can't change the world, only how you react to it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yikes, I'd be afraid of your reactions to living in Nazi Germany then. Just go with the flow, huh? Just adapt. Not your problem. Integrate.

I found myself practically developing ulcers from stressing over things I could not change. I come from an AA family and found that some of the things I learned growing up in AA helped me alot here. Accept the things you cannot change,  have the courage to change the things you can and the wisdom to know the difference

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very wise. And knowing the difference starts with understanding what the differences are - not just blindly accepting any old difference and fitting in, silently and quietly.

[Ken]

You've got me pegged.  Thinking with my dick.

But look, I'm 38, and aging fast due in part to excessive drinking and womanizing.  She is 24 and pretty hot.  Small and slim.  The sex is always passionate and intense and we go for hours (and hours) without any loss of interest or intensity.  We are completely comfortable together sexually, and more than that deeply interested in each other sexually.  We eat each other up.  Our bodies are in love, and she has a good one.  She'd be a great receptacle for a little love child.  She'd be happy to take care of him herself, if need be.  And yes, actually, the little bitch does love me - at least she is also very attached to me in the similar body centered way that I am attached to her. 

Yes, I wish I didn't think with my dick, and had held out for a peer.  I was able to have sex with this girl/woman for 10 months without falling in love.  In the end, we just went for it, ###### the torpedos.  I'm a complete ###### idiot to do so, and you are right to point that out.  But which of us wouldn't?

Why do I "attract" a woman with a childlike sense of self?  I "attract" all sorts of women.  One young extremely attractive genius dreams of me nightly.  She chose to marry the man who could provide security, but most likely will be with me one day.  She is all that and 20 times more.  Better person than me, in many ways.  I have been fortunate enough to have extremely high quality mates.  And middling, and poor.  I'll ###### anything that moves - I happen to have an overpoweringly strong sex drive.  I'll seduce a chicken if I have to.  That has nothing to do with recognizing patterns of cognition.  Some people organize the world in ways that seem foreign to me, and if I am to properly love (understand) them, and properly listen, I'd better ###### well figure out how their heads works.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Blah Blah Blah. "I'll seduce a chicken if I have to". I just knew that Falong Pan's post was going to get to this point, eventually. It just took longer than I thought. In a way it's too bad his original post concerning how "long he can do it" was deleted, because I think it would have shed a lot of light on what he is trying to do here!

He is so full of it, it is starting to stink really bad.

[Covertjay]

Try telling telling a thai That he speaks a stupid language invented a thousand years ago and not changed for the better anymore.

Never heard of anyone even thinking of uttering that remark!

Thai, and most especially Bangkok Thai is evolving as fast or perhaps even faster than English out of California. Just check out all the new slang terms that originate in BKK and find themselves in everyday usage a year or so later.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The most recent revision of Thai, Ratanakosin Thai is only 223 years old. Not that out of date really.