The Mwaning Of Life - Thailand

[benjamat]

Ok, before I start I should state that I am not so self important as to try and add my six penneth to the myriads of books by academics that try to answer these age old questions.

Im prompted to have a stab at this because of the many, many posts I see that comment on the farang presence in Thailand in very superficial terms.

It seems to me that the human being is driven or motivated by 2 very basic need, The need to procriate and self preservation.

Put another way, to have sex and to live longer, so what has this got to do with Thailand.

In the animal kingdom it is always the younger females that are preferred by the males because eons of evolution have proved that they are more likely to produce offspring for the next generation. This desire is built into the genes and in spite of changes in perception over the past few hundred years we human beings still have the genetic desires, they are just suppressed by cultural changes and political correctness. Yes I know many view the farangs who have young wives and girlfriends as dirty old men or at the very least suspect, with the sex word underlying all views and self gratification seen as the driver but it seems to be taboo to say that this is a simple biological imperative. I believe that this biological imperative is in fact the greatest influence.

Along with "sex" I would suggest that the preservation of life is also a huge driver but this is not quite as simple as the link with sex.

In the west ageism is rife and in many cases you are written off as an irrelevance after the age of forty or perhaps fifty. If you look for a mate you are most often viewed with suspicion and often again labelled as a dirty old man. In thai culture we are not viewed in the same way, there is not the overt ageism of the west and in the main older men are not seen as either irrelevances or something that should be kept out of sight.

The simple fact is that if you are able to create interest from younger females and are not viewed by the community as a write off or an irrelevance then in your mind you will feel younger, probably act younger and have better health, and will not feel yourself on the slippery slope to death in the same way as in the west.

So, Thailand offers opportunities to both cater for your genetic procriation needs and provides an environment that will at least seem to extend your life.

My point in all this is to try and show that underpinning all the cliches about trophy brides and cheap sex with younger women there is something else playing here that is not so easy for the detractor to decry.

So, just a thought, perhaps coming to Thailand for sex is not simply a matter of the farang exploiting younger thai ladies for simple gratification?

Edited October 4, 2008 by benjamat

[Soutpeel]

So, just a thought, perhaps coming to Thailand for sex is not simply a matter of the farang exploiting younger thai ladies for simple gratification?

Yes it is...

[benjamat]

So, just a thought, perhaps coming to Thailand for sex is not simply a matter of the farang exploiting younger thai ladies for simple gratification?

Yes it is...

Thoughtfull reply

[kmart]

Ok, before I start I should state that I am not so self important as to try and add my six penneth to the myriads of books by academics that try to answer these age old questions.

Oh but you are!

[desertrat]

Best answers I've ever read, from book "Plato and a Platypus went into a Bar". Philosophy taught by jokes ( 2 Harvard professors) It's so funny, while I'm listening, on the bus, in the check-out line etc, I start shaking with mirth , and clutch my sides, causing alarm and distress to the citizenry.

[Edonista]

So, just a thought, perhaps coming to Thailand for sex is not simply a matter of the farang exploiting younger thai ladies for simple gratification?

Actually the thai ladies exploit farangs leveraging on their sexual needs to rip them off.

[benjamat]

Best answers I've ever read, from book "Plato and a Platypus went into a Bar". Philosophy taught by jokes ( 2 Harvard professors) It's so funny, while I'm listening, on the bus, in the check-out line etc, I start shaking with mirth , and clutch my sides, causing alarm and distress to the citizenry.

Plato and a Platypus went into a Bar.

Thanks a lot, read a few reviews, creased me up, ordered from amazon.

[soundman]

So, just a thought, perhaps coming to Thailand for sex is not simply a matter of the farang exploiting younger thai ladies for simple gratification?

Actually the thai ladies exploit farangs leveraging on their sexual needs to rip them off.

I agree, more times than not, the lady will come out on top.

[Jingthing]

Procreation? Old farangs are coming to Thailand primarily to make babies? I don't think so. At least the gay ones aren't.

Hint: procreation urge is but one aspect of human sexuality. Humans are ready to go all year, unlike many species who are good once a year or once a lifetime. I think the OP is correct that male brains are wired visually to be attracted to more youthful sex partners, and also that heterosexual ones are genetically programmed to be more likely to be attracted to partners who are birth-capable (again more youthful and curvy with the hips) even if they are trying to prevent pregnancies.

As far as sexploitation, yes, I agree that game can be a two way street, about who is the "victim" and who is the "prey".

Edited October 4, 2008 by Jingthing

[yabaaaa]

So, just a thought, perhaps coming to Thailand for sex is not simply a matter of the farang exploiting younger thai ladies for simple gratification?

Actually the thai ladies exploit farangs leveraging on their sexual needs to rip them off.

I agree, more times than not, the lady will come out on top.

Your'e right I prefer them on top it means I can still watch the tv, puff on my fag and swig the beer+ have a rest!!

[whatsoever]

So, just a thought, perhaps coming to Thailand for sex is not simply a matter of the farang exploiting younger thai ladies for simple gratification?

Yes it is...

Seems like a lot of Thai ladies are quite anxious to be exploited - or is it to exploit

[Gaccha]

Im prompted to have a stab at this because of the many, many posts I see that comment on the farang presence in Thailand in very superficial terms.

You've mixed up at least three crucial issues, and annoyingly each one requires a massive amount of explanation. But, heck, since the alternative is returning to my reading of Japanese security norms through poststructuralism I will have a timid crack at this.

"It seems to me that the human being is driven or motivated by 2 very basic need, The need to procriate and self preservation."

I actually don't think you are being sufficeintly reductionist here; it is your DNA that through a process of reverse-engineering (natural selection) had determined your reasons for existing. Whatever maximise its chance of survival will tend to succeed. You need to self-preserve only in as much as it does not compromise your ability to pass on your genes (it does not matter how much you procreate, to your DNA). As a man, since the cost of procreation is so cheap (a new batch of 200 million semen can be produced in a day) you might as well do it with everything in sight...

...but until very recently everything in sight was almost always pregnant (they didn't have contraceptives when cave-dwelling) so it was almost always pointless going for a woman who was over 16ish, because she would be most likely pregnant. You could spot this by her youth. Her youth also made her massively more fertile since there wasw little point in her DNA maintaining her fertility past 27 since she was likely to die in childbirth (or if not, an agonising death by teeth decay). The upshot of all this biology lesson, is that some men wil try a mass- procreation strategy (a la the Pattaya experience) and others will not (a la Wigan pub). Not all men have a chronic urge to procreate. So you could regard a certain strategy as the dirty-old men strategy. You then need to take a constructivist approach to way the idea has a bad impression in our Western societies. I will leave this to Peace Blondie to explain.

The sex tourist, which is the starting idenitity that we should look at seems at first glance a definitionally clear concept. So let's shred it. Lots of young English ladies head to Ibiza for their Summer holidays to " 'ave some fun". I am certain they would deny that they are going to seek sex. But sex is actually a requirement of the fun. They can only cavort with boys and enjoy the thrill of being chased (chaste... ) by offering sex to the winning male. To put it crudely, they are as much sex tourists as the plumber from Dagenham fulling in love with a Thai bar-girl.

Now lets have a look at all those expats 'forced' here by their jobs. How about the diplomats.... Well, it turns out that UK diplomats choose to go where they go. And to put it flatly, you would have to be anti-social to choose Chad over Thailand. It is fine going to Chad for 2 weeks, but could you be posted there for 3 years. As for the other expsts, I don't seem them rushing to the escape hatch.

Lets turn to the final constructed identity point: the married man. This man is viewed as off the circuit, as having nothing to do with the dirty life of the sex tourist. Well, I have a big, flashing red light come on at this point. In study after study it is married men who are the main users of prostitutes. They get married in order to gain easy access to sex. That's what marriage amounts to... You can dress it up anyway you want but that is all it is. In other words, married men are likely to be victims of their desires to hump everything in sight more than single men. I have a pretty low sex drive. Paradoxically, this makes me less attractive to females as they can't control me.

Okay. Now the final point:

"So, just a thought, perhaps coming to Thailand for sex is not simply a matter of the farang exploiting younger thai ladies for simple gratification?"

I think you are onto something, along with the replies. I find it very hard to accept there is any exploitation going on.

The concept of prostitution is littered with paradigms that try to assert an exploitation. Let's destroy each one in turn:

"The women have no choice"- Obviously they do have a choice. Tesco at 35 bahts an hour is not bad work (air conditioned and easy hours). It is depressing that the social construction requires the young earn enough to look after the old but that is an issue of the welfare system, not the sex industry.

"They are slaves"- The vast vast majority turned up of the bus at Ekkamai or Mo Chit Bus terminal. The numbers who are forced into it must be staggeringly trivial. This was a hot issue last year in the UK. The Home Secretary did a nationwide police raids on brothels fearing huge numbers of slaves. They turned up with 11 girls who had overstayed their visas. Comical.

"They are trafficked"- This is a particularly nasty attempt to make prostitution unacceptable. It has some purchase in academic circles. It confuses trafficking where the person wants to be trafficked and slave or forced trafficking. It then assumes that working as a prsotitute is quanitiviely worse than being forced, for example, to work as a domestic slave housemaid. I can't accept this and nor apparently can many prostitutes.

There is an endless cycle of accusations and counter-accusations as part of the process of constructing idenitity. This identity creates power. Since few people can barely be bothered to read my post, let alone articles on these subjects, in 20 years time some one will ask the same questions you have posed, except by then it will be via a 3D holograph machine or something...

[kmart]

I think I'd rather be out procreating than spewing pretentious drivel in this thread, thanx. Move to Pseud's Corner, please, someone? The mwaning of life indeed.

[Gaccha]

There is an endless cycle of accusations and counter-accusations as part of the process of constructing idenitity. This identity creates power. Since few people can barely be bothered to read my post, let alone articles on these subjects, in 20 years time some one will ask the same questions you have posed, except by then it will be via a 3D holograph machine or something...

Kmart, see you on the 3D holographic Thaivisa forum in 20 years time... or do sit up straight in class. And do your tie up. And stop fidgeting.

[dumball]

gacca , you have a reasonably artistic writing potential in the way you took to explain a comparatively simple post , i enjoyed it . My school master explained my writings as 'Flowery' .

[benjamat]

Im prompted to have a stab at this because of the many, many posts I see that comment on the farang presence in Thailand in very superficial terms.

You've mixed up at least three crucial issues, and annoyingly each one requires a massive amount of explanation. But, heck, since the alternative is returning to my reading of Japanese security norms through poststructuralism I will have a timid crack at this.

"It seems to me that the human being is driven or motivated by 2 very basic need, The need to procriate and self preservation."

I actually don't think you are being sufficeintly reductionist here; it is your DNA that through a process of reverse-engineering (natural selection) had determined your reasons for existing. Whatever maximise its chance of survival will tend to succeed. You need to self-preserve only in as much as it does not compromise your ability to pass on your genes (it does not matter how much you procreate, to your DNA). As a man, since the cost of procreation is so cheap (a new batch of 200 million semen can be produced in a day) you might as well do it with everything in sight...

...but until very recently everything in sight was almost always pregnant (they didn't have contraceptives when cave-dwelling) so it was almost always pointless going for a woman who was over 16ish, because she would be most likely pregnant. You could spot this by her youth. Her youth also made her massively more fertile since there wasw little point in her DNA maintaining her fertility past 27 since she was likely to die in childbirth (or if not, an agonising death by teeth decay). The upshot of all this biology lesson, is that some men wil try a mass- procreation strategy (a la the Pattaya experience) and others will not (a la Wigan pub). Not all men have a chronic urge to procreate. So you could regard a certain strategy as the dirty-old men strategy. You then need to take a constructivist approach to way the idea has a bad impression in our Western societies. I will leave this to Peace Blondie to explain.

The sex tourist, which is the starting idenitity that we should look at seems at first glance a definitionally clear concept. So let's shred it. Lots of young English ladies head to Ibiza for their Summer holidays to " 'ave some fun". I am certain they would deny that they are going to seek sex. But sex is actually a requirement of the fun. They can only cavort with boys and enjoy the thrill of being chased (chaste... ) by offering sex to the winning male. To put it crudely, they are as much sex tourists as the plumber from Dagenham fulling in love with a Thai bar-girl.

Now lets have a look at all those expats 'forced' here by their jobs. How about the diplomats.... Well, it turns out that UK diplomats choose to go where they go. And to put it flatly, you would have to be anti-social to choose Chad over Thailand. It is fine going to Chad for 2 weeks, but could you be posted there for 3 years. As for the other expsts, I don't seem them rushing to the escape hatch.

Lets turn to the final constructed identity point: the married man. This man is viewed as off the circuit, as having nothing to do with the dirty life of the sex tourist. Well, I have a big, flashing red light come on at this point. In study after study it is married men who are the main users of prostitutes. They get married in order to gain easy access to sex. That's what marriage amounts to... You can dress it up anyway you want but that is all it is. In other words, married men are likely to be victims of their desires to hump everything in sight more than single men. I have a pretty low sex drive. Paradoxically, this makes me less attractive to females as they can't control me.

Okay. Now the final point:

"So, just a thought, perhaps coming to Thailand for sex is not simply a matter of the farang exploiting younger thai ladies for simple gratification?"

I think you are onto something, along with the replies. I find it very hard to accept there is any exploitation going on.

The concept of prostitution is littered with paradigms that try to assert an exploitation. Let's destroy each one in turn:

"The women have no choice"- Obviously they do have a choice. Tesco at 35 bahts an hour is not bad work (air conditioned and easy hours). It is depressing that the social construction requires the young earn enough to look after the old but that is an issue of the welfare system, not the sex industry.

"They are slaves"- The vast vast majority turned up of the bus at Ekkamai or Mo Chit Bus terminal. The numbers who are forced into it must be staggeringly trivial. This was a hot issue last year in the UK. The Home Secretary did a nationwide police raids on brothels fearing huge numbers of slaves. They turned up with 11 girls who had overstayed their visas. Comical.

"They are trafficked"- This is a particularly nasty attempt to make prostitution unacceptable. It has some purchase in academic circles. It confuses trafficking where the person wants to be trafficked and slave or forced trafficking. It then assumes that working as a prsotitute is quanitiviely worse than being forced, for example, to work as a domestic slave housemaid. I can't accept this and nor apparently can many prostitutes.

There is an endless cycle of accusations and counter-accusations as part of the process of constructing idenitity. This identity creates power. Since few people can barely be bothered to read my post, let alone articles on these subjects, in 20 years time some one will ask the same questions you have posed, except by then it will be via a 3D holograph machine or something...

Thanks for the reply, it is good to see that a couple of people at least took the time to think about the post.

Of course my post was minimal, as it had to be, and of course there are increasing numbers of ill disciplined and positively unbalanced children in the class.

[spiderman2]

gacca , you have a reasonably artistic writing potential in the way you took to explain a comparatively simple post , i enjoyed it . My school master explained my writings as 'Flowery' .

An unbeatable response.

[IMA_FARANG]

Ok, before I start I should state that I am not so self important as to try and add my six penneth to the myriads of books by academics that try to answer these age old questions.

Im prompted to have a stab at this because of the many, many posts I see that comment on the farang presence in Thailand in very superficial terms.

It seems to me that the human being is driven or motivated by 2 very basic need, The need to procriate and self preservation.

Put another way, to have sex and to live longer, so what has this got to do with Thailand.

In the animal kingdom it is always the younger females that are preferred by the males because eons of evolution have proved that they are more likely to produce offspring for the next generation. This desire is built into the genes and in spite of changes in perception over the past few hundred years we human beings still have the genetic desires, they are just suppressed by cultural changes and political correctness. Yes I know many view the farangs who have young wives and girlfriends as dirty old men or at the very least suspect, with the sex word underlying all views and self gratification seen as the driver but it seems to be taboo to say that this is a simple biological imperative. I believe that this biological imperative is in fact the greatest influence.

Along with "sex" I would suggest that the preservation of life is also a huge driver but this is not quite as simple as the link with sex.

In the west ageism is rife and in many cases you are written off as an irrelevance after the age of forty or perhaps fifty. If you look for a mate you are most often viewed with suspicion and often again labelled as a dirty old man. In thai culture we are not viewed in the same way, there is not the overt ageism of the west and in the main older men are not seen as either irrelevances or something that should be kept out of sight.

The simple fact is that if you are able to create interest from younger females and are not viewed by the community as a write off or an irrelevance then in your mind you will feel younger, probably act younger and have better health, and will not feel yourself on the slippery slope to death in the same way as in the west.

So, Thailand offers opportunities to both cater for your genetic procriation needs and provides an environment that will at least seem to extend your life.

My point in all this is to try and show that underpinning all the cliches about trophy brides and cheap sex with younger women there is something else playing here that is not so easy for the detractor to decry.

So, just a thought, perhaps coming to Thailand for sex is not simply a matter of the farang exploiting younger thai ladies for simple gratification?

Precisely how many bar girls/hosteses/etc. have you ever actually talked to on a one-to-one basis, other than as a "business arrangement"? By which I mean how many bargirls do you know as friends outside of a sexual thing? Maybe you really should do that before you start offering opinions on the nature of the Thai sex industry and its causes.

If you ever get around to meeting such girls and actually speaking to them, you will find many stories and varied reasons for what they do that will make you realise that there is no one reason for their life style. You will find some that voluntarily chose that life style. You will find some that had it forced upon them by husbands/boyfriends who left them with no money and children to raise without help from the father. You will find some whose family virtually sold them into the life for money (poverty is no fun). You will find some who made a hard-headed business decision to make use of the assets they have and are intent on getting the best price for that assest. I know of some bargirls who worked for long enough as a bargirl to buy themselves land and a future husband upcountry. Those are now relatively well off, and well respected members of their village community. And yes, you will find some who do it beacause it's the easiest way for them to make money, and they are, frankly, lazy. You will also find those that are on the downward spiral of drugs, with "uppers" to keep them going, and "downers" to put them to sleep after they are done with the day. If you ever do take the time to talk to these people, you will be amazed at the variety of the stories you will hear.

Once you've done that for a few years, then come back and offer me your theories of the Thai sex industry and it's reasons. Before you do that, however, with all due respect to you....you don't know what you're talking about.

I'm not criticising, I just want you to be sure you have all the facts before you start offering your opinions.

I haven't been a "barhopper" for about 20 years now (growing older), but I spent a good 4 to 5 years doing that, and I met at least 100 bargirls I knew personally as friends. I also meant at least as many owners and others involved. I have some experience with the matter, and I know of what I speak.

[Gaccha]

"It seems to me that the human being is driven or motivated by 2 very basic need, The need to procriate and self preservation."

,,,The upshot of all this biology lesson, is that some men wil try a mass- procreation strategy (a la the Pattaya experience) and others will not (a la Wigan pub). Not all men have a chronic urge to procreate. So you could regard a certain strategy as the dirty-old men strategy. You then need to take a constructivist approach to way the idea has a bad impression in our Western societies. I will leave this to Peace Blondie to explain.

The sex tourist, which is the starting idenitity that we should look at seems at first glance a definitionally clear concept. So let's shred it. Lots of young English ladies head to Ibiza for their Summer holidays to " 'ave some fun". I am certain they would deny that they are going to seek sex. But sex is actually a requirement of the fun. They can only cavort with boys and enjoy the thrill of being chased (chaste... ) by offering sex to the winning male. To put it crudely, they are as much sex tourists as the plumber from Dagenham fulling in love with a Thai bar-girl.

Now lets have a look at all those expats 'forced' here by their jobs. How about the diplomats.... Well, it turns out that UK diplomats choose to go where they go. And to put it flatly, you would have to be anti-social to choose Chad over Thailand. It is fine going to Chad for 2 weeks, but could you be posted there for 3 years. As for the other expsts, I don't seem them rushing to the escape hatch.

Lets turn to the final constructed identity point: the married man. This man is viewed as off the circuit, as having nothing to do with the dirty life of the sex tourist. Well, I have a big, flashing red light come on at this point. In study after study it is married men who are the main users of prostitutes. They get married in order to gain easy access to sex. That's what marriage amounts to... You can dress it up anyway you want but that is all it is. In other words, married men are likely to be victims of their desires to hump everything in sight more than single men. I have a pretty low sex drive. Paradoxically, this makes me less attractive to females as they can't control me.

Okay. Now the final point:

"So, just a thought, perhaps coming to Thailand for sex is not simply a matter of the farang exploiting younger thai ladies for simple gratification?"

I think you are onto something, along with the replies. I find it very hard to accept there is any exploitation going on.

The concept of prostitution is littered with paradigms that try to assert an exploitation. Let's destroy each one in turn:

"The women have no choice"- Obviously they do have a choice. Tesco at 35 bahts an hour is not bad work (air conditioned and easy hours). It is depressing that the social construction requires the young earn enough to look after the old but that is an issue of the welfare system, not the sex industry.

"They are slaves"- The vast vast majority turned up of the bus at Ekkamai or Mo Chit Bus terminal. The numbers who are forced into it must be staggeringly trivial. This was a hot issue last year in the UK. The Home Secretary did a nationwide police raids on brothels fearing huge numbers of slaves. They turned up with 11 girls who had overstayed their visas. Comical.

"They are trafficked"- This is a particularly nasty attempt to make prostitution unacceptable. It has some purchase in academic circles. It confuses trafficking where the person wants to be trafficked and slave or forced trafficking. It then assumes that working as a prsotitute is quanitiviely worse than being forced, for example, to work as a domestic slave housemaid. I can't accept this and nor apparently can many prostitutes.

There is an endless cycle of accusations and counter-accusations as part of the process of constructing idenitity. This identity creates power. Since few people can barely be bothered to read my post, let alone articles on these subjects, in 20 years time some one will ask the same questions you have posed, except by then it will be via a 3D holograph machine or something...

I write a post that attacks three 'truths' of life in Thailand, by counter-intuitively arguing:

1. married men here are worse with the Thai girls than single men

2. there is no such thing as a 'sex tourist'

3. naughty randiness in a man will ultimately lead to a settled, orthodox, conservative married life (this is implied via the biology lesson)

4. there is almost no exploitation (except by Tesco Lotus)

...and the worse I get is to be told my language is flowery. Well, I am not having this, I am going to bump it to the top of the pile, at least until PeaceBlondie gives it a response...

[Tyke]

First, there are many guys, maybe even a large minority if not the majority, who like older women or women around their own age.

Secondly, the OP seems to reject 'self gratification' as the main reason for sex. Well, how many guys who come to Thailand for sex with whatever age are hoping to reproduce?

Thirdly, if reproduction is the main reason why people get the urge for sex then what about gays and lesbians? Are they unnatural? Is this a christian fundamentalist idea the OP is proselytising in the guise of biological science?

[dumball]

Gaacha , i said your writing had potential artistic potential .

MY school masters said MY writing tended to be 'Flowery' .

Not quite the same thing and in no way meant in a derogatory manner , quite the opposite .

[eek]

Thought this would be an interesting read, but then realised it is focused purely on the male perspective (although interesting in that respect). I realise most TV members are male and there are a higher percentage of male expats here, but there is still a substantial western female population, of which the points mentioned do not relate well to us.

I recall a thread just a couple of weeks ago asking why there is no "male forum", I guess this thread highlights the reasoning that most of all the subtopics in TV are male dominated.

Just would be nice to open a thread which asks a question seemingly to both sexes which doesnt end up automatically relating to the male perspective.

Just a small rant there.

[Gaccha]

Thought this would be an interesting read, but then realised it is focused purely on the male perspective (although interesting in that respect). I realise most TV members are male and there are a higher percentage of male expats here, but there is still a substantial western female population, of which the points mentioned do not relate well to us.

I recall a thread just a couple of weeks ago asking why there is no "male forum", I guess this thread highlights the reasoning that most of all the subtopics in TV are male dominated.

Just would be nice to open a thread which asks a question seemingly to both sexes which doesnt end up automatically relating to the male perspective.

Just a small rant there.

Please go ahead and rant right here. There was certainly no male perspective from my writing. I do understand that feminist theory says, via arguing that there can be no empirical truth (no objective truths), the only way a thinker on female issues can 'understand' (since it can never be 'explained' as there is no 'truth' to explain) is for them to be female. So every topic opened by a man must be "automatically from the male perspective". Some more moderate feminist writers argue as long as a man is sympathethic he can understand.

Which of any of the 3 issues do you want to write about? I recommmend the 'sex tourist' part, it gets a lot of people excited...

We men are not going to 'ged'it' unless you write...

[benjamat]

Ok, before I start I should state that I am not so self important as to try and add my six penneth to the myriads of books by academics that try to answer these age old questions.

Im prompted to have a stab at this because of the many, many posts I see that comment on the farang presence in Thailand in very superficial terms.

It seems to me that the human being is driven or motivated by 2 very basic need, The need to procriate and self preservation.

Put another way, to have sex and to live longer, so what has this got to do with Thailand.

In the animal kingdom it is always the younger females that are preferred by the males because eons of evolution have proved that they are more likely to produce offspring for the next generation. This desire is built into the genes and in spite of changes in perception over the past few hundred years we human beings still have the genetic desires, they are just suppressed by cultural changes and political correctness. Yes I know many view the farangs who have young wives and girlfriends as dirty old men or at the very least suspect, with the sex word underlying all views and self gratification seen as the driver but it seems to be taboo to say that this is a simple biological imperative. I believe that this biological imperative is in fact the greatest influence.

Along with "sex" I would suggest that the preservation of life is also a huge driver but this is not quite as simple as the link with sex.

In the west ageism is rife and in many cases you are written off as an irrelevance after the age of forty or perhaps fifty. If you look for a mate you are most often viewed with suspicion and often again labelled as a dirty old man. In thai culture we are not viewed in the same way, there is not the overt ageism of the west and in the main older men are not seen as either irrelevances or something that should be kept out of sight.

The simple fact is that if you are able to create interest from younger females and are not viewed by the community as a write off or an irrelevance then in your mind you will feel younger, probably act younger and have better health, and will not feel yourself on the slippery slope to death in the same way as in the west.

So, Thailand offers opportunities to both cater for your genetic procriation needs and provides an environment that will at least seem to extend your life.

My point in all this is to try and show that underpinning all the cliches about trophy brides and cheap sex with younger women there is something else playing here that is not so easy for the detractor to decry.

So, just a thought, perhaps coming to Thailand for sex is not simply a matter of the farang exploiting younger thai ladies for simple gratification?

Precisely how many bar girls/hosteses/etc. have you ever actually talked to on a one-to-one basis, other than as a "business arrangement"? By which I mean how many bargirls do you know as friends outside of a sexual thing? Maybe you really should do that before you start offering opinions on the nature of the Thai sex industry and its causes.

If you ever get around to meeting such girls and actually speaking to them, you will find many stories and varied reasons for what they do that will make you realise that there is no one reason for their life style. You will find some that voluntarily chose that life style. You will find some that had it forced upon them by husbands/boyfriends who left them with no money and children to raise without help from the father. You will find some whose family virtually sold them into the life for money (poverty is no fun). You will find some who made a hard-headed business decision to make use of the assets they have and are intent on getting the best price for that assest. I know of some bargirls who worked for long enough as a bargirl to buy themselves land and a future husband upcountry. Those are now relatively well off, and well respected members of their village community. And yes, you will find some who do it beacause it's the easiest way for them to make money, and they are, frankly, lazy. You will also find those that are on the downward spiral of drugs, with "uppers" to keep them going, and "downers" to put them to sleep after they are done with the day. If you ever do take the time to talk to these people, you will be amazed at the variety of the stories you will hear.

Once you've done that for a few years, then come back and offer me your theories of the Thai sex industry and it's reasons. Before you do that, however, with all due respect to you....you don't know what you're talking about.

I'm not criticising, I just want you to be sure you have all the facts before you start offering your opinions.

I haven't been a "barhopper" for about 20 years now (growing older), but I spent a good 4 to 5 years doing that, and I met at least 100 bargirls I knew personally as friends. I also meant at least as many owners and others involved. I have some experience with the matter, and I know of what I speak.

Hmm, if you read the post properly you would understand that none of it is in any way an opinion but simply some thoughts that I hoped to generate a discussion on.

Should have known in advance that so many here immediately adopt an aggressive and dismissive tone.

I can assure you that I have plenty of experience but of course that is also of no interest to you, I hope you feel better now.

[Gaccha]

Thirdly, if reproduction is the main reason why people get the urge for sex then what about gays and lesbians? Are they unnatural? Is this a christian fundamentalist idea the OP is proselytising in the guise of biological science?

Crikey, this above quote is too juicy to ignore.

So lets knife it apart:

If reproduction is the main reason why people get the urge for sex...?

I am certain that the main reason people get an urge for sex is reproduction. Do you seriously think otherwise? The urge/enjoyment is all there to make sure you did it. If sex was not enjoyable we are very unlikely to reproduce very often (unless we developed something like the Tarantula spider mating situation, where the small male after 'making love' is then eaten by the female [i forget all the details and might have selected the wrong spider , but my point still stands ] but still 'makes love' as he has a great urge to do so, but seemingly only needs to make love once... .

...then what about gays and lesbians?

Yes. They also have the urge because of reproduction. Obviously the process is not as effective as when it is straight men with straight women, but it is surprising how many get there in the end. That is, a lot of gays and lesbians end up with children... Of course, otheres don't, but they are also seemingly very useful [in an evolutionary sense, for their DNA, they may be, in practice, terrible at cooking cupcakes for their neices etc.] for raising the children as Aunts and Uncles [this is currently a red hot topic in science]

Are they unnatural?

Depends what you mean by 'unnatural'. The word has multiple meanings, which makes it vulnerable to equivocation. If you mean, "the reason they have sex does not correspond with the system of natural selection" then I think it is unnatural. If you mean,'unnatural' in the second sense as 'revolting", "disgusting" then I personally don't think so. And in regards to the OP, I think you are making a Straw Man argument against him.

Is this a christian fundamentalist idea the OP is proselytising in the guise of biological science?

Eh, well I am atheist. The existence of God is wholly preposterous to me, so you won't catch me spreading the word of the Lord. But you have unearthed an interesting point: scientific explanations tend to reinforce conservative views because they look at how things are and not how things should be... As humans, we often can overcome this problem and get to how things should be.

So let's rejoice. And if you could open your Atheist Prayerbook to p.666, "Welcome to the Dark Side".

[Travel2003]

So, just a thought, perhaps coming to Thailand for sex is not simply a matter of the farang exploiting younger thai ladies for simple gratification?

Actually the thai ladies exploit farangs leveraging on their sexual needs to rip them off.

I agree, more times than not, the lady will come out on top.

Agree.

Btw, women (in general) are the only hunters that put themself out as bait.

[Gaccha]

Btw, women (in general) are the only hunters that put themself out as bait.

Amusing but not true. With virtually any animal species, the females will wish to offload the energy loss of child-rearing and will always carry out a "bait and switch" strategy. The word 'cuckolded' (a man bringing up another man's child) comes from a real natural phenomenon of those birds.

The apparent exceptions are where the females are more powerful, and the men end up sharing the child-rearing burden, betting the child even if it is not theirs, then the next one probably will be. Some bizarre factors determine how powerful the females are. The distance of plants to eat dispersed the females so they were more vulnerable to a strong male. In these sorts of groups, the females needed to get the strongest male (alpha male) as only those males could dominate the women (it was and is a vicious feedback look ; modern women select the men who are most likely to be dominating to the next generation of women).

So among bonobos the female pygmy chimps do not have to worry about getting the alpha males sperm because a male can never dominate them because the females can stay grouped together: consequently, they are not concerned with which males have sex with them, so they show no signs of emotional distress that we would call 'rape'.

In contrast, the human female, is very concerned with who impregnates her, so is tortured by the possibility of rape. This is, of all reasons, because when we were scavengers (pre-Thaksin, when we were all in Africa), we adopted a niche strategy of foraging for root plants. This helped us survive but the women had to disperse over wider areas.

Eh, think I have digressed a bit...

[Travel2003]

Btw, women (in general) are the only hunters that put themself out as bait.

Amusing but not true. With virtually any animal species, the females will wish to offload the energy loss of child-rearing and will always carry out a "bait and switch" strategy. The word 'cuckolded' (a man bringing up another man's child) comes from a real natural phenomenon of those birds.

The apparent exceptions are where the females are more powerful, and the men end up sharing the child-rearing burden, betting the child even if it is not theirs, then the next one probably will be. Some bizarre factors determine how powerful the females are. The distance of plants to eat dispersed the females so they were more vulnerable to a strong male. In these sorts of groups, the females needed to get the strongest male (alpha male) as only those males could dominate the women (it was and is a vicious feedback look ; modern women select the men who are most likely to be dominating to the next generation of women).

So among bonobos the female pygmy chimps do not have to worry about getting the alpha males sperm because a male can never dominate them because the females can stay grouped together: consequently, they are not concerned with which males have sex with them, so they show no signs of emotional distress that we would call 'rape'.

In contrast, the human female, is very concerned with who impregnates her, so is tortured by the possibility of rape. This is, of all reasons, because when we were scavengers (pre-Thaksin, when we were all in Africa), we adopted a niche strategy of foraging for root plants. This helped us survive but the women had to disperse over wider areas.

Eh, think I have digressed a bit...

In other words.....Women in general.

[Huey]

So, just a thought, perhaps coming to Thailand for sex is not simply a matter of the farang exploiting younger thai ladies for simple gratification?

Actually the thai ladies exploit farangs leveraging on their sexual needs to rip them off.

Beat me too it. However I will add one correction to your comment.

Thai LADIES do not exploit anyone, Thai hookers and sluts on the other hand, of course.... one would be wise to know the difference when they look for something serious.

[GuestHouse]

In the animal kingdom it is always the younger females that are preferred by the males because eons of evolution have proved that they are more likely to produce offspring for the next generation

In the animal Kingdom it is the males who are in their young prime who get the females in their child bearing years.

At some time down the line it occurs to the even younger males that the can knock the top dog off his pedestal, they eventually achieve this and the old dog skulks out of the pack to die a lonely life .... or if he is lucky goes and finds companionship in the dregs that hang around the fringes of the pack...

Now what was the question?

Edited October 6, 2008 by GuestHouse