Wall Street Disaster

[unomi]

Lots of people are making comparisons with the '29 depression. This is totaly different. Governments today understand what the crisis is and have a better idea how to handle it.

One other example of the difference between 'now' and 'then' is unemployment benefit. It hadn't been invented in '29. It's absence was a big factor in plunging the country into depression and keeping it there for so long.

but until now none of their "better ideas" worked.

If they understood the crisis it shouldn't have happened.

Nor am I quite with you in regards to unemployment benefits somehow being able to stave off a depression. It might mitigate the effects of one, yes.

The fact remains that some of the world has been living large and beyond their means. Rational thought has been supplanted by blind greed.

My advice? Be a farmer and stop worrying; spend time with your friends and family and learn to enjoy the simple pleasures.

Most of the economy beyond base industries and agriculture are basically ponzi schemes, that happen to be backed by government and institutions. It is, I am afraid, part of the basic fallacy that everyone must be employed, its simply not true and it becomes untenable when so much effort is being made in creating jobs that add zero real value, like being a stock broker or investment banker.

Society does its very best at alienating us from our brethren and instilling the values of constant competition. Many live in quiet panic over what their future might bring and if they have *enough*. Inflation and instability in savings vehicles ensures that the vast majority of people will never be able to get off the treadmill, they must always be hooked up to the system so that some might be able to siphon off resources. All in the name of wanton job creation.

We would all be renaissance people if it were not for the caustic soda-pop brainwashing.

Next stop communism. Capitalism is a fraud.

[dingdongrb]

My advice? Be a farmer and stop worrying; spend time with your friends and family and learn to enjoy the simple pleasures.

Most of the economy beyond base industries and agriculture are basically ponzi schemes, that happen to be backed by government and institutions. It is, I am afraid, part of the basic fallacy that everyone must be employed, its simply not true and it becomes untenable when so much effort is being made in creating jobs that add zero real value, like being a stock broker or investment banker.

May I ask, are you heeding your own advice? And if so what crops are you farming in BKK?

[Naam]

Next stop communism. Capitalism is a fraud.

AMEN!

[Jamesjimmy]

Some of the reason for the recent sharp delines in the US market is because the ban on shorting was lifted in Wednesday.

So, some of the people shorting think that will be further declines in the market.

There will be a bottom somewhere, and those that buy at or near the bottom and go long can get positive gains, IMO.

Where this bottom is, I have not idea.

When it will happen, I have no idea.

There are many serious problems, as we know.

The bottom was made today, it was around 7880. Today was capitulation day, Monday Mr. Paulson starts to invest the taxpayers money in conjunction with some very interesting ideas out of the G-7 ! As usual the baby was thrown out with the bathwater so there are some once in a lifetime values in the market currently, but do your D.D. Remember, Bernard Baruch, Benjamin Graham and Warren Buffett became the most sucessful investors of all time because they had the guts to buy when there was blood in the streets. Good luck to all

and good luck to you too!!!! i agree with your point of view,,,, its a GREAT time to buy stocks!!!! with that said i still think there is one more leg down and would wait until we see a lower index..perhaps 6000-7000 on the dow,

[russianrobert]

Lots of people are making comparisons with the '29 depression. This is totaly different. Governments today understand what the crisis is and have a better idea how to handle it.

One other example of the difference between 'now' and 'then' is unemployment benefit. It hadn't been invented in '29. It's absence was a big factor in plunging the country into depression and keeping it there for so long.

but until now none of their "better ideas" worked.

How do you know it hasn't worked? Sure markets are still tanking and the banks are not lending but we are all still in the game. Look at the alternative if they have not acted.

I think Britain's plan of buying stakes in the banks and guaranteeing loans between banks looks like a good one but it needs a unilateral approach from all governments.

There is still time to fix this mess. I guess this weekend's G7 meeting will be crucial. There needs to be a plan and not just more words.

[Naam]

Lots of people are making comparisons with the '29 depression. This is totaly different. Governments today understand what the crisis is and have a better idea how to handle it.

One other example of the difference between 'now' and 'then' is unemployment benefit. It hadn't been invented in '29. It's absence was a big factor in plunging the country into depression and keeping it there for so long.

but until now none of their "better ideas" worked.

How do you know it hasn't worked? Sure markets are still tanking and the banks are not lending but we are all still in the game. Look at the alternative if they have not acted.

how do you know what the alternative looks like?

[russianrobert]

Lots of people are making comparisons with the '29 depression. This is totaly different. Governments today understand what the crisis is and have a better idea how to handle it.

One other example of the difference between 'now' and 'then' is unemployment benefit. It hadn't been invented in '29. It's absence was a big factor in plunging the country into depression and keeping it there for so long.

but until now none of their "better ideas" worked.

How do you know it hasn't worked? Sure markets are still tanking and the banks are not lending but we are all still in the game. Look at the alternative if they have not acted.

how do you know what the alternative looks like?

Perhaps governments should do nothing, let the markets take their course and we could all find out?

[Jingthing]

and good luck to you too!!!! i agree with your point of view,,,, its a GREAT time to buy stocks!!!! with that said i still think there is one more leg down and would wait until we see a lower index..perhaps 6000-7000 on the dow,

So you think you are smart enough to pick the bottom? Good luck on that. The real question is whether it takes two years, five years, or thirty years to recover. If 30, even picking the bottom spot on would be a losing proposition.

[lannarebirth]

Lots of people are making comparisons with the '29 depression. This is totaly different. Governments today understand what the crisis is and have a better idea how to handle it.

One other example of the difference between 'now' and 'then' is unemployment benefit. It hadn't been invented in '29. It's absence was a big factor in plunging the country into depression and keeping it there for so long.

http://itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?p=52465#poststop

[Carib]

[lannarebirth]

Lots of people are making comparisons with the '29 depression. This is totaly different. Governments today understand what the crisis is and have a better idea how to handle it.

One other example of the difference between 'now' and 'then' is unemployment benefit. It hadn't been invented in '29. It's absence was a big factor in plunging the country into depression and keeping it there for so long.

but until now none of their "better ideas" worked.

If they understood the crisis it shouldn't have happened.

Nor am I quite with you in regards to unemployment benefits somehow being able to stave off a depression. It might mitigate the effects of one, yes.

The fact remains that some of the world has been living large and beyond their means. Rational thought has been supplanted by blind greed.

My advice? Be a farmer and stop worrying; spend time with your friends and family and learn to enjoy the simple pleasures.

Most of the economy beyond base industries and agriculture are basically ponzi schemes, that happen to be backed by government and institutions. It is, I am afraid, part of the basic fallacy that everyone must be employed, its simply not true and it becomes untenable when so much effort is being made in creating jobs that add zero real value, like being a stock broker or investment banker.

Society does its very best at alienating us from our brethren and instilling the values of constant competition. Many live in quiet panic over what their future might bring and if they have *enough*. Inflation and instability in savings vehicles ensures that the vast majority of people will never be able to get off the treadmill, they must always be hooked up to the system so that some might be able to siphon off resources. All in the name of wanton job creation.

We would all be renaissance people if it were not for the caustic soda-pop brainwashing.

Next stop communism. Capitalism is a fraud.

If 50% of families in America weren't destroyed through divorce, and grandma and grandpa weren't getting a check from the government, the housing sector and the greater share of consumer spending would have evaporated long ago.

[lannarebirth]

Lots of people are making comparisons with the '29 depression. This is totaly different. Governments today understand what the crisis is and have a better idea how to handle it.

One other example of the difference between 'now' and 'then' is unemployment benefit. It hadn't been invented in '29. It's absence was a big factor in plunging the country into depression and keeping it there for so long.

but until now none of their "better ideas" worked.

How do you know it hasn't worked? Sure markets are still tanking and the banks are not lending but we are all still in the game. Look at the alternative if they have not acted.

I think Britain's plan of buying stakes in the banks and guaranteeing loans between banks looks like a good one but it needs a unilateral approach from all governments.

There is still time to fix this mess. I guess this weekend's G7 meeting will be crucial. There needs to be a plan and not just more words.

What's bad about so many people being "in", is that any idea looks like a good idea. I hope you don't take the rest of us down with you, but I'm afraid everyone's going to get hit by this one.

[Martian]

Can't you transfer those investments into bonds without paying the penalty? I guess it depends how you have your ira set up but i wouldn't think you would set it up so that you must keep it in the stock market. I'd check and put it in bonds although it's getting late and i imagine you lost a bundle already.

Good luck.

Yep! I sure have lost a lot. And unfortunately I have been unable to access my account (w/ Vanguard) from within Thailand. Now its is probably too late to "panic".

Why can't you access your Vanguard account from within Thailand? Do they block internet access from a foreign IP address? There is always something called a telephone....just a matter of calling during the correct business hours.

I have Vanguard and am moving to Thailand soon but want to access my accounts. Is this a real big problem because of being out of the country?

Regards,

Martian

[OriginalPoster]

and good luck to you too!!!! i agree with your point of view,,,, its a GREAT time to buy stocks!!!! with that said i still think there is one more leg down and would wait until we see a lower index..perhaps 6000-7000 on the dow,

So you think you are smart enough to pick the bottom? Good luck on that. The real question is whether it takes two years, five years, or thirty years to recover. If 30, even picking the bottom spot on would be a losing proposition.

It could be longer than 30 years before we visit the old highs again. Japan's Nikkei average was at almost 39,000 in 1989 and 19 years later is at 8300. The NASDAQ was at 4700 in 2000 versus 1650 now. I'm not sure that I'll live to see 14,000 on the DOW again, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you can't make money buying & selling stocks in the interim. But is now the bottom? If I knew that I wouldn't be here writing jigger-jabber on an internet forum. Allen Greenspan coined the phrase "Irrational exuberance" when the DOW was a bit over 6000, so I'm going to guess that's where the bottom is.

[lannarebirth]

Nice bounce on Friday. What didn't change is this:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/cbuilder?ticker1=.TEDSP%3AIND

edit: Actually, that;s not quite accurate. It did change a bit. It moved higher.

Edited October 11, 2008 by lannarebirth

[jdinasia]

Anyone following these developments on Wall Street?

Dow Index is bellow 8,600 (at time of writing this post), there is savage selloff going on!

Statistics show this is the worst bear market since 1973 and largest 7 day loss since 1987. We all know what happened that and following year. Another interesting info: dow lost 8 trillion dollar of its value in 1 year, how do you possibly comprehend these figures?

....it will affect us all more then you can possibly imagine.They dragging us with them. Whoever thinks this situation won't affect rest of the world is living on other planet. They are largest economy in the world, every country dreams of selling something to them...

Just watch openings in Tokyo, Singapore and Hong Kong this morning - I bet there will be widespread market trading suspensions.

You can't possibly think that only yanks are invested in Wall Street can you? This "they" you use is senseless.

[unomi]

and good luck to you too!!!! i agree with your point of view,,,, its a GREAT time to buy stocks!!!! with that said i still think there is one more leg down and would wait until we see a lower index..perhaps 6000-7000 on the dow,

So you think you are smart enough to pick the bottom? Good luck on that. The real question is whether it takes two years, five years, or thirty years to recover. If 30, even picking the bottom spot on would be a losing proposition.

It could be longer than 30 years before we visit the old highs again. Japan's Nikkei average was at almost 39,000 in 1989 and 19 years later is at 8300. The NASDAQ was at 4700 in 2000 versus 1650 now. I'm not sure that I'll live to see 14,000 on the DOW again, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you can't make money buying & selling stocks in the interim. But is now the bottom? If I knew that I wouldn't be here writing jigger-jabber on an internet forum. Allen Greenspan coined the phrase "Irrational exuberance" when the DOW was a bit over 6000, so I'm going to guess that's where the bottom is.

Great post.

You can say what you want about Ayn Rands loverboy but he isn't stupid.

Personally I was hoping to live in the alternate dimension that saw Allan Greenspan and Noam Chomsky on a joint presidential ticket.

[CroBiker]

Anyone following these developments on Wall Street?

Dow Index is bellow 8,600 (at time of writing this post), there is savage selloff going on!

Statistics show this is the worst bear market since 1973 and largest 7 day loss since 1987. We all know what happened that and following year. Another interesting info: dow lost 8 trillion dollar of its value in 1 year, how do you possibly comprehend these figures?

....it will affect us all more then you can possibly imagine.They dragging us with them. Whoever thinks this situation won't affect rest of the world is living on other planet. They are largest economy in the world, every country dreams of selling something to them...

Just watch openings in Tokyo, Singapore and Hong Kong this morning - I bet there will be widespread market trading suspensions.

You can't possibly think that only yanks are invested in Wall Street can you? This "they" you use is senseless.

Don't be an idiot and look for beef where there isn't one. Only dumbass like yourself can come up with idea that Americans are sole investors on Wall Street. My post was heavily edited by supermoderator because of reference to US adminsitration and war in Iraq.

[jdinasia]

Anyone following these developments on Wall Street?

Dow Index is bellow 8,600 (at time of writing this post), there is savage selloff going on!

Statistics show this is the worst bear market since 1973 and largest 7 day loss since 1987. We all know what happened that and following year. Another interesting info: dow lost 8 trillion dollar of its value in 1 year, how do you possibly comprehend these figures?

....it will affect us all more then you can possibly imagine.They dragging us with them. Whoever thinks this situation won't affect rest of the world is living on other planet. They are largest economy in the world, every country dreams of selling something to them...

Just watch openings in Tokyo, Singapore and Hong Kong this morning - I bet there will be widespread market trading suspensions.

You can't possibly think that only yanks are invested in Wall Street can you? This "they" you use is senseless.

Don't be an idiot and look for beef where there isn't one. Only dumbass like yourself can come up with idea that Americans are sole investors on Wall Street. My post was heavily edited by supermoderator because of reference to US adminsitration and war in Iraq.

"They are the largest economy in the world" etc... yes the US is the largest economy, yes there are many companies that are not US companies listed with the NYSE, yes people from all over the world are invested in the NYSE ...

so this begs the question who are the "they" in this quote?

.it will affect us all more then you can possibly imagine.They dragging us with them.

[CroBiker]

Which part of "heavily edited post" you don't understand?

I can repost the original comment and risk being banned, is that what you want?

I rather not... thanks.

Edited October 11, 2008 by CroBiker

[unomi]

true Capitalists are capitalizing, even as the rest are capsizing

[OriginalPoster]

and good luck to you too!!!! i agree with your point of view,,,, its a GREAT time to buy stocks!!!! with that said i still think there is one more leg down and would wait until we see a lower index..perhaps 6000-7000 on the dow,

So you think you are smart enough to pick the bottom? Good luck on that. The real question is whether it takes two years, five years, or thirty years to recover. If 30, even picking the bottom spot on would be a losing proposition.

It could be longer than 30 years before we visit the old highs again. Japan's Nikkei average was at almost 39,000 in 1989 and 19 years later is at 8300. The NASDAQ was at 4700 in 2000 versus 1650 now. I'm not sure that I'll live to see 14,000 on the DOW again, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you can't make money buying & selling stocks in the interim. But is now the bottom? If I knew that I wouldn't be here writing jigger-jabber on an internet forum. Allen Greenspan coined the phrase "Irrational exuberance" when the DOW was a bit over 6000, so I'm going to guess that's where the bottom is.

Great post.

You can say what you want about Ayn Rands loverboy but he isn't stupid.

Personally I was hoping to live in the alternate dimension that saw Allan Greenspan and Noam Chomsky on a joint presidential ticket.

Referring to him as Ayn Rand's lover evokes some disturbing images but that’s beside the point. Actually it's Jim Sinclair that Greenspan is in cahoots with not Noam Chomsky. See http://www.gold-eagle.com/greenspan041998.html and guess how AG has been investing his money for this past decade.

Edited October 11, 2008 by OriginalPoster

[unforgiven]

This is all going to come down on billl clinton as he was the one responsible for these regulations that lead to this rape....................................republicans in /08 will dodge the the Iraque noose

So basically your saying it is rape & it was Clinton who started it?

So your also saying Mr Bush just continued with sloppy seconds for 8 years right?

essentially your correct,all I can say is that maybe Bushes idea was well it's not broken so why fix it. I'm not saying Clinton could of forseen this morph ing of his good intentions.

[flying]

essentially your correct,all I can say is that maybe Bushes idea was well it's not broken so why fix it.

Basic thoughts like these is what makes me think the whole system is out of order.

I really think we a a race have outgrown certain things....Big things like ....Government....Monetary system & Religion to name a few.

[rott]

and good luck to you too!!!! i agree with your point of view,,,, its a GREAT time to buy stocks!!!! with that said i still think there is one more leg down and would wait until we see a lower index..perhaps 6000-7000 on the dow,

So you think you are smart enough to pick the bottom? Good luck on that. The real question is whether it takes two years, five years, or thirty years to recover. If 30, even picking the bottom spot on would be a losing proposition.

Exactly. could go like Japan - 20 years ago the Nikkei was 39,000 and today below 9,000. You just have to back your judgment

[Carib]

Edited October 12, 2008 by Carib

[Pakboong]

It is interesting to me that we (global) can fight a "war on terror" for 10 years on several fronts and never get a bill. A couple of hundred dollars on taxes will never make a dent. Keeping that many troops deployed with over twice as many civilian contractors (to avoid a draft) which cost as much as 5 times as much as soldiers; the cost is beyond comprehension. The lions share of the total cost is hidden in what is called black funding. Federal deficits while record setting under Bush, cannot come close to paying this bill. Consider that WW2 cost the US $300 billion which was $4.3 trillion in 2006 dollars and was funded largely by $185 billion worth of war bonds. Has anyone seen a commercial for war bonds or ball players and movie stars out trying to sell them as was the case during WW2? Has anyone been inconvenienced due to rationing. This bill has to be paid and it is huge. Consider what is going on now a bill for this mess. Just additional security in all areas costs a fortune. We never got a bill. My taxes have not change significantly in recent memory. They are high but have not been seriously adjusted upward in amounts that suggest they are paying for this phony war. Consider how a couple of powerful countries could put this bill on the rest of the world.

[Naam]

Lots of people are making comparisons with the '29 depression. This is totaly different. Governments today understand what the crisis is and have a better idea how to handle it.

One other example of the difference between 'now' and 'then' is unemployment benefit. It hadn't been invented in '29. It's absence was a big factor in plunging the country into depression and keeping it there for so long.

but until now none of their "better ideas" worked.

How do you know it hasn't worked? Sure markets are still tanking and the banks are not lending but we are all still in the game. Look at the alternative if they have not acted.

how do you know what the alternative looks like?

Perhaps governments should do nothing, let the markets take their course and we could all find out?

i did not mean that Robert. what i indirectly wanted to state is that time was wasted, too much bla-bla by the politicians and not enough timely action. perhaps the results of this weekend show something tangible, not band aids and not shooting with airguns at polar bears.

[Shotime]

true Capitalists are capitalizing, even as the rest are capsizing

It would have sounded better like this "True Capitalists are capitalizing, even as the rest are capitulating." I only learned that word yesterday when a friend, with a lot less money than he had a month ago, used it.

[glyph]

"It is interesting to me that we (global) can fight a "war on terror" for 10 years on several fronts and never get a bill."

The bill is that the national debt tripled under Bush, and that will be repaid through your taxes.

"Consider that WW2 cost the US $300 billion which was $4.3 trillion in 2006 dollars and was funded largely by $185 billion worth of war bonds."

Bush's war in Iraq has cost 4% trillion US.

"Has anyone been inconvenienced due to rationing."

During WWII, Roosevelt inplemented rationing of sugar, coffee, tires, and gas...nit that the US didn't have sufficient supplies, he just wanted US citizens to feel the same sort of economic pain that the English were.

"My taxes have not change significantly in recent memory. They are high but have not been seriously adjusted upward in amounts that suggest they are paying for this phony war."

US citizens have a lower tax load than most of the other industrialized nations. Considering that a gallon of gas costs $5US more in Europe and other countries, simply because of additional taxes.