Cambodia Threatens War With Thailand Within 24 Hours

[Foggy Bottom]

LongThaimer .... huh?

Your knowledge of what has occurred along the Myanmar border seems a bit lacking too.

Understatement of the thread (at least) - well said JD

(BTW ... does anyone know the arms and numbers of standing troop levels for either nation?)

I have them in my clippings and archives files - already done a fair bit of digging and filtering to get accurate numbers as I've had 3 requests today for military overviews, from western publications, so I'd better get cracking after feeding the monks in the morning

.... think we'll have at least another week to milk report this story.

BOING!! - "time for bed", said Zebedee.

[saxophone45]

This is becoming a joke, the sad thing is innocent young soldiers on either side could die because some prats want to keep face.

Couldn't agree more........How childish...now this unknown place(to most people in the world) wins an award which might attract tourism (££),suddenly becomes worth fighting(killing) for!!!???

Grow up Thailand(not out!) You have more than enough attractions, love thy neighbours *)

[WinnieTheKhwai]

This is becoming a joke, the sad thing is innocent young soldiers on either side could die because some prats want to keep face.

That won't be the first or the last time in the history of the world..

Applies to Western countries just the same. (e.g. 'we don't want to leave unless everyone agrees we WIN')

[Johpa]

Back to the Cambodian border crisis: It would be interesting as to whether the whole situation is being played up, even by Hun Sen, who is reportedly very close to Thaksin. What's the chances the Rich One gave him a call and said 'Play it up for 24 to 48 hours'? The trouble in this part of the world is almost every country is run by power-hungry mongrels.

Here endeth the lesson.

If I remember correctly, Thaksin was a critical supporter of Hun Sen during Hun Sen's military coup back in the late 1990s and Thaksin was provided with some telecommunications monopolies as a result. Or was it the possibility of monopolies that instigated the coup?

[geriatrickid]

"Cambodia is friends with Vietnam"? Did I miss some history? What do we have now? And Kampuchea Krom?Wishful thinking!

No. Rather, it was a legitimate concern based upon many articles and press releases on the subject. One cannot deny that Vietnam has a important financial and political interests in Cambodia. I draw your attention to such articles as;

Jeffery Kim, Sothy Kien Originally (excerpted from Khemera Times 12-Jan-2008)

Vietnam is always playing the upper hand when it comes to choosing who it wants to make friends with. Vietnam has chosen Cambodia as a friend, because it sees only gains and nothing to lose. The most apparent and fruitful gains by Vietnam from the bilateral relations are free movement of Vietnamese people into Cambodia, full access to Cambodia's market with Vietnamese products, and the political clout the Hanoi communist regime has over the Phnom Penh politics. The one-way influx of Vietnamese people going to Cambodia is a norm these days, namely the personal trips, the political trips, the business trips, or merely a Vietnamese migration to Cambodia. Cambodia has an open-door policy towards the Vietnamese citizens. When in Cambodia, a Vietnamese newcomer has full rights and privileges as the Khmer citizens. (Comment: Eat your hearts out tax paying farang expats in Thailand). Vietnam prefers that Cambodia remains a dictatorial regime and ideally led by Mr. Hun Sen, because he was installed by the Vietnamese invaders during 1979-1990. Mr. Hun Sen works well with the Vietnam's communists. Mr. Hun Sen is simply acting as 'an agent' in Cambodia to the Hanoi's communist regime, to keep an eye on any democratic movement taking roots in Cambodia.

Ok, for sure it's a hostile article on Cambodia, but still, it suggests to me, along with many other reports and articles, that Vietnam does have a stake in keeping Cambodia offlimits to Thailand. Take a look at the Vietnamese Foreign Affairs Press Release last week;

Vietnam, Cambodia agree to strengthen relationship Da Nang (VNA) – The Vietnam-Cambodia Joint Commission for Economic, Cultural and Scientific-Technological Cooperation convened its 10th session in Da Nang city on Oct. 6 to discuss concrete measures to expand bilateral cooperation between the two nations. The session was co-chaired by the Vietnamese Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Pham Gia Khiem, head of the Vietnam sub-commission, and his Cambodian counterpart Hor Namhong, head of the Cambodia sub-commission. They stressed the need to intensify trade and services activities to increase two-way trade turnover to 2 billion USD by 2010. They pledged to facilitate the cooperation of businesses involved in projects to build hydro-electricity power plants, explore and exploit oil and gas reserves and develop telecom services as well as to encourage localities, particularly those lying along the borders of the two countries, to further their cooperation. The officials agreed to upgrade several border gates to facilitate economic and cultural exchanges between the two countries and their localities, increase cooperation in matters of national security and the fight against trans-national crime, and continue conducting joint-patrols at sea.

When Vietnam makes a pledge on national security, one would be foolish not to pay attention. The Vietnamese have a corps of senior officers that have had battle experience. The Thai military does not. In a region where energy resources are coveted, Vietnam will want to secure possible energy supplies in Cambodia and that means propping up the Cambodia regime. Anyone care to wager that Vietnam is working behind the scenes to convince the Thais of the folly of war?

[george]

Update:

Regional army chief: No troop withdrawals from disputed areas

NAKHON RATCHASIMA: -- Second Region Army Commander Lt-Gen. Viboonsak Neepal on Tuesday reaffirmed that the Thai military will not withdraw its troops from overlapping areas claimed by Thailand and Cambodia, saying that the armed forces are ready to maintain the country's sovereignty.

Speaking after meeting with local military unit commanders to assess the situation along the Thai-Cambodian border, he said that Thailand will not pull out its troops from the disputed areas, because the claims by both countries were made based on separate maps.

Gen. Viboonsak conceded that some Thai troops, including border patrols and surveillance troops had withdrawn from some posts, but only 30 personnel were affected, not 80 to 1-100 as claimed by Cambodia.

He said Thai troops must sometimes enter the overlapping areas to help evacuate soldiers injured by landmines.

Gen. Viboonsak said he was confident that the armed forces will protect Thailand's national sovereignty. The public must not be worried about it.

Should there be a clash between soldiers, he said, the military is ready to evacuate people from the overlapping areas.

The general said he had already informed provincial governors on the Thai-Khmer frontier of the incident.

He warned people to avoid entering the disputed areas or traveling to Cambodia for the time being as since the situation remains worrying.

A brief skirmish broke out on the border earlier in the month, with one Cambodian and two Thai soldiers wounded. Both sides claimed the other fired first and blamed the other for being on the wrong side of the border.

Three days later, two Thai soldiers lost legs when they stepped on land mines in the area.

Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen met with Thai Foreign Minister Sompong Amornvivat on Monday, but the meeting appeared to end without resolution. Afterward Mr. Hun Sen said that if Thai troops do not stop trespassing, "armed clashes will break out."

-- TNA 2008-10-15

[george]

Foreign Ministry explains border dispute to ASEAN envoys

BANGKOK: -- The Thai Foreign Ministry met ambassadors of eight Association for Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) members to meet to explain the border dispute between Thailand and Cambodia, Permanent Secretary for Foreign Affairs Veerasak Futrakul announced on Tuesday.

However, the Philippine envoy failed to attend the meeting.

Mr. Veerasak said he told the envoys of the border clash between Thailand and Cambodia on October 3 and of the Thai troops stepping on mines while patrolling.

He pointed out the dispute area should have been free of landmines because they had been cleared earlier.

The Thai officials had entered the area to examination and found new mines of a variety never previously used in Thailand had been laid.

Thailand believes Cambodia laid the landmines following the October 3 border clash.

Such action violates the Ottawa Convention to which both Cambodia and Thailand are signatories.

Mr. Veerasak also expressed bewilderment at Cambodian Prime Minister Somdej Hun Sen's ultimatum for the withdrawal of Thai troops from the disputed areas because the Cambodia leader had previously supported bilateral efforts to solve the dispute.

However, he affirmed Thailand would attempt to protect and maintain its sovereignty to the utmost of its ability.

-- TNA 2008-10-15

[Guest Reimar]

FROM TOC

FLASH NEWS: Back up Units Deployed at Thai-Cambodian Border

UPDATE : 15 October 2008

The Thai army has reportedly sent additional troops to the Thai -Cambodian border. The backup units are fully armed and were seen transporting at least 10 canons.

Army chief General Anupong Poachinda revealed Thai soldiers have been given the permission to retaliate if they are attacked.

[CHIEFOFFICER]

No war is good.

CH.

[Thaddeus]

I've been hearing the sound of low flying jets for most of the morning, I'm just round the corner from Ta Muen btw.

[phibunmike]

What I don't understand is why the 4.6 sq km is now disputed or how the border is not clearly defined by the 1904 map. Surveys were accurately done at that time.

I know the temple well and am unclear where exactly this piece of land is. Has anyone seen a definitive map of it?

I found some maps and interesting commentary at this website.

This is one of them - I hope the site owner doesn't mind me posting it here.

[IMA_FARANG]

I'm flying to PP today - first time there.

Being based in Thailand I'm now wondering if I should postpone. I do actually want to be able to return here!

It might be nationalistic rhetoric and an attempt to intimidate, but "war" isn't a word you should bat around lightly.

Bugger.

Not that this has anything to do with the present situation or the topic, but I'll tell you a true story I know about Cambodia.

About 1970, when I was in Cambodia (although the U.S. government still refuses to admit I was ever there) ths incident hapened. There were two aircrat belonging to the Cambodian Air Force at a base just on the outskirts of Phenom Penh. One day, at about 1 P.M. the security gaurd on the perimeter was approached by a group of Khmer Rouge, Vietnamese soldiers, and a 2 star Vietnamese General in full uniform. They simply walked up to the security post, and asked to speak to the officer in charge of security. When the officer appeared, and a Vietnamese translator was found, the general told them the following. He informed them that the Khmer Rouge intended to attack the airbase that evening, and destroy the two Cambodian Air Force planes. The atack was set for 0100 (1 A.M. in the morning). The general said that he was simply informing the Cambodians so that they could decide whether they wished to be there at the time or not. Of course, anyone trying to stop the Khmer Rouge would be killed.

That evening, just after midnight, all the Cambodian security gaurds seemed to have gone missing. At 0100 hours, the Khmer Rouge entered the airbase, put explosive charges on the two aircraft, set the timers, and left....all without any opposition. The two aircraft were destroyed.

According to the official reports nobody ever saw a thing.

It's a true story. Isn't war fun.

[stingray]

This is just a pretty blatant way to promote nationalism and break the will of the PAD.

Spot on, this is a show to change the will of the Thai people, not unlike what the American government did with 9/11. PM, and the Thaksin cabal are desperate.

So many problems in this worls, but they have to fight about a old destroyed temple. Typical no brainers.

[LongThaimer]

LongThaimer .... huh?

Your knowledge of what has occurred along the Myanmar border seems a bit lacking too.

Understatement of the thread (at least) - well said JD

(BTW ... does anyone know the arms and numbers of standing troop levels for either nation?)

I have them in my clippings and archives files - already done a fair bit of digging and filtering to get accurate numbers as I've had 3 requests today for military overviews, from western publications, so I'd better get cracking after feeding the monks in the morning

.... think we'll have at least another week to milk report this story.

BOING!! - "time for bed", said Zebedee.

let's see....

yes.......shiny tanks are nice to have but will be useful only as far as infrastructure on thai soil allows them to since they would become virtually useless once crossed over into cambodia's jungle.....artilery fire or air raids alone could not beat the cambodians entrenched in the jungle.....that leaves close range machine guns fight as the likely scenario....let's not forget that a barefooted khmer soldier with a rifle has equal chance of killing a beautifully armed thai soldier in the cover of the jungle........look no further than atrocious indochina jungle wars.....

fact is some nations fights more fierce and violent than others which has a lot to do with their country's history and their martial traditions.......cambodia belongs to one of these nations....

no one is saying cambodia will come out on top...

most opinions have been to the contrary.....point being made is that while thai military does possesses superior armories big question remains to be answer is that do they have the killer instinct and able to muster the brutal real battle conditions which is missing on their cv.......?????

NO..COBRA GOLDs don't count as battle experience..sorrry......

so what are thai soldiers doing on the burmese borders lately apart form bird watching???

[jdinasia]

LongThaimer .... huh?

What long brutal war was cambodia involved in that would have any current field level veterans?

Your knowledge of what has occurred along the Myanmar border seems a bit lacking too.

(BTW ... does anyone know the arms and numbers of standing troop levels for either nation?)

But this won't ever likely go to full scale war. A localized battle to grab and hold the contested land? possibly, but I doubt even that.

Edit ---- and what about the relative population differences? ......

I thought you might want to look at this post again Longtimer

Care to expand upon your remarks about experience (current/valid) by the Cambodians?

There are still active duty officers in the Thai military that have jungle combat experience etc .... but it isn't that big of an issue. All the Thais have to do to "win" any conflict is prevent border incursions by the Cambodian "military" and sit tight.

I do invite you to look at border clashes and patrolling history along the Myanmar border and surrounding the areas with the still operating refugee camps.

I think your comments about the Cambodian history (as a people) are shallow. I also think that when you compare relative troops strength, training, equipment, population etc that you are holding untenable position. If you were talking about a Thai invasion of Cambodia, you would be at least partially correct. Invading a largely rural jungle environment and holding it against hostiles has always been a problem for any military no matter how advanced.

[george]

Update:

Thai fighter jets on stand-by as Cambodia row escalates

Thailand's air force has put fighter jets on stand-by as a months-long border dispute with Cambodia appeared to be escalating, the air force spokesman said.

"Normally we have fighter jets on stand-by at various regional headquarters ready for operation within five minutes, but under the current circumstances we have increased our readiness,'' Group Captain Montol Suchookorn said.

He said that transportation planes were also being prepared in case they were needed to evacuate Thai nationals from Cambodia, but added that he expected the stand-off to be settled through talks, rather than an armed conflict.

"I do hope the use of force is the last resort,'' he said.

-- AFP 2008-10-15

[george]

Gunshots were heard near Preah Vihear Temple

Sound of several gunshots were heard near the disputed area at Preah Vihear area along the Thai-Cambodia border at about 2.45pm.

The area is in the heart of border tension between Thailand and Cambodia which re-emerged after Cambodia's premier threatened to open war if Thai troops were not withdrawn from the area.

-- The Nation 2008-10-15

[medegen]

Gunshots were heard near Preah Vihear Temple

Sound of several gunshots were heard near the disputed area at Preah Vihear area along the Thai-Cambodia border at about 2.45pm.

The area is in the heart of border tension between Thailand and Cambodia which re-emerged after Cambodia's premier threatened to open war if Thai troops were not withdrawn from the area.

-- The Nation 2008-10-15

Yeah I think its started

[mdechgan]

2. "Thailand is under an obligation to withdraw any military or police forces, or other guards or keepers, stationed by her at the Temple, or in its vicinity on Cambodian territory"; [Cambodia's Submission 4]

That is very vague. How far is vicinity? Like 1 km or next door?

The understanding was Thailand had to give up to temple because of the ruling. However the ruling was based on the fact that the demarcation line was never challenged by the Thai's for 50 years so that was the techinicality why Thailand lost the temple.

Hoowever the watershed line had moved considerably over the past 100 years.

The international court ruled the temple belongs to Cambodia but the international court never ruled on where the demarcation line is or was.

[Tod]

BANGKOK (Reuters) - Thai and Cambodian forces along a disputed stretch of border near a 900-year-old Hindu temple exchanged fire for about 10 minutes Wednesday, a reporter on the Thai side of the border told Reuters.

The reporter, who works for a Thai state media outlet, also said smoke was seen billowing into the air from the Cambodian side of the border near the Preah Vihear temple.

(Reporting by Prapan Chankaew; Writing by Ed Cropley; Editing by Alan Raybould)

[mdechgan]

Not that this has anything to do with the present situation or the topic, but I'll tell you a true story I know about Cambodia.

About 1970, when I was in Cambodia (although the U.S. government still refuses to admit I was ever there) ths incident hapened. There were two aircrat belonging to the Cambodian Air Force at a base just on the outskirts of Phenom Penh. One day, at about 1 P.M. the security gaurd on the perimeter was approached by a group of Khmer Rouge, Vietnamese soldiers, and a 2 star Vietnamese General in full uniform. They simply walked up to the security post, and asked to speak to the officer in charge of security. When the officer appeared, and a Vietnamese translator was found, the general told them the following. He informed them that the Khmer Rouge intended to attack the airbase that evening, and destroy the two Cambodian Air Force planes. The atack was set for 0100 (1 A.M. in the morning). The general said that he was simply informing the Cambodians so that they could decide whether they wished to be there at the time or not. Of course, anyone trying to stop the Khmer Rouge would be killed.

That evening, just after midnight, all the Cambodian security gaurds seemed to have gone missing. At 0100 hours, the Khmer Rouge entered the airbase, put explosive charges on the two aircraft, set the timers, and left....all without any opposition. The two aircraft were destroyed.

According to the official reports nobody ever saw a thing.

It's a true story. Isn't war fun.

Wouldn't this be the same as like:

"Excuse me, could you please remove yourself from the premises? We're gonna blow the crap out of this place and would highly appreciate it if you held your safety in high regards."

Edited October 15, 2008 by mdechgan

[bangkokrick]

Gunshots were heard near Preah Vihear Temple

Sound of several gunshots were heard near the disputed area at Preah Vihear area along the Thai-Cambodia border at about 2.45pm.

The area is in the heart of border tension between Thailand and Cambodia which re-emerged after Cambodia's premier threatened to open war if Thai troops were not withdrawn from the area.

-- The Nation 2008-10-15

If true this is very bad news indeed for all concerned. I would think that at with the current political situation in Thailand a war is the last thing that the Thais need.

Can anyone in the Isaan area confirm the the gunshots?

Cheers, Rick

[medegen]

Thai-Cambodia forces exchange fire: Cambodia

(BangkokPost.com) - A Cambodian official was quoted by news wire services that Thai and Cambodian troops have exchanged gunfire along a disputed border for about 10 minutes on Wednesday afternoon.

[bangkokrick]

Thai-Cambodia forces exchange fire: Cambodia

(BangkokPost.com) - A Cambodian official was quoted by news wire services that Thai and Cambodian troops have exchanged gunfire along a disputed border for about 10 minutes on Wednesday afternoon.

Thanks Medegen although it is bad news.

Cheers, Rick

[mdechgan]

If war does start the entire international community will blame Thailand for not backing down on hunsen's threats.

For my personal view. Threatening war was uncalled for. Thai has every reason to not submit to Cambodia's threats of war.

Worst case scenario. The U.S. backs Thailand, Vietnam and China backs Cambodia. Another world war.

Bad for Cambodia, Thailand invades and annexes Cambodia all the way to the Mekong river.

Bad for Thailand, Cambodia annexes a couple of Thai provinces.

Atleast the last two would clear the border dispute.

[Rajah]

Fighting breaks out on Thai-Cambodian border

Fighting broke out along a disputed stretch of the Thai-Cambodian border on Wednesday, a Reuters photographer at the scene said, adding that he had to take cover amid rocket and small arms fire.

"I heard gun-fire all over the place in this area," said Chor Sokunthea, a Reuters photographer, by telephone. "One rocket flew from Thailand over my head and landed. Now you can hear the fighting. They've opened fire."

"I have to find a safe place to hide," he said, before hanging up.

Separately, a Cambodian official, Hang Soth, said fighting broke out Wednesday between Thai and Cambodian troops along the disputed border area.

Military officials in both countries could not be reached for immediate comment. Reuters, AP

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/10/15/asi...cambothaiFW.php

[WAERTH]

Nah it won't get this far.

Guess who is Hun Sen's best friend ...... Thaksin Shinawatra! Look at newspaper reports earlier this year.

In my opinion this is an elaborate setup. There will be some shooting and some death. Then all of a sudden Thaksin shows up, makes peace with Hun Sen and all of Thailand will love him again.

Offcourse there is more scenario's possible.

Waerth

[medegen]

Cambodia claims new border clash with Thailand

(BangkokPost.com) - Cambodian officials were quoted by news wire services that Thai and Cambodian troops exchanged gunfire along a disputed border for about 10 minutes on Wednesday afternoon.

The firefight took place at Kantalak district, Si Sa Ket province.

"Cambodian and Thai troops are opening fire at each other now," Cambodian Brig Gen Bun Thean told AFP from the scene.

Reuters photographer Chor Sokunthea at the scene was also quoted that he heard gun fire. "One rocket flew from Thailand over my head and landed. Now you can hear the fighting. They've opened fire," he was quoted as saying.

Preab Tan, governor of Cambodia's northern Preah Vihear province, also confirmed the fighting. "I can confirm there was fighting between Cambodians and Thais. The Thais fired at us first," Preab Tan told Reuters.

[animatic]

I picked up my paper at 3:45 and it was common knowledge for Thai people.

I HIGHLY suspect Thaksin's hand in this.

Too many pluses for him, and to few minuses.

A perfect distraction for lil bro in law's govnt. to not topple yet,

Perfect distraction for them to jigger the constitution under-observed.

Changes the head lines big time.

A bigger potential field for his oil fields deals

A white knight scenario possible.

Wins bigger budget for his army friends.

Makes Thailand look more unstable for his asylum bids too.

Edited October 15, 2008 by animatic

[sriracha john]

Graphic showing the disputed borders claimed by Cambodia and Thailand around the Preah Vihear temple complex, where troops exchanged gunfire Wednesday.

AFP

Edited October 15, 2008 by sriracha john