Where Is Gold Going In This Market

[midas]

The readers comments that follow this newspaper article are also worth reading to gain an insight into sentiment and the degree of awareness of the game that is being played (regarding Fiat money)

Gold faces 'global supply crunch'

http://www.telegraph...ply-crunch.html

Edited February 20, 2013 by midas

[yoshiwara]

to maintain a certain value percentage of my liquid assets. this certain percentage is considered an insurance like my health insurance or other insurance policies i hold.

I don't understand why Yoshiwara doesn't seem to get this?

perhaps, or most probably, Yoshiwara's perspectives are different from yours and from mine.

I prefer income and dividends for investment.

I do have a weakness for Japanese art though.

And are you saying there is not even a tiny part of you that considers the risks of a societal breakdown with no law and order as we saw during the natural disasters ? And you are not in the slightest bit concerned that your Japanese artwork under those circumstances couldn't even be exchanged for a bottle of water?

I don't think in those apocalyptic terms. And I think it is ridiculous to do so. I do think however about the continued holding of assets in the UK. That would be apocalyptic enough for me. Art? I will enjoy my art and you can wallow in fear. Fair exchange I would say.

[midas]

perhaps, or most probably, Yoshiwara's perspectives are different from yours and from mine.

I prefer income and dividends for investment.

I do have a weakness for Japanese art though.

And are you saying there is not even a tiny part of you that considers the risks of a societal breakdown with no law and order as we saw during the natural disasters ? And you are not in the slightest bit concerned that your Japanese artwork under those circumstances couldn't even be exchanged for a bottle of water?

I don't think in those apocalyptic terms. And I think it is ridiculous to do so. I do think however about the continued holding of assets in the UK. That would be apocalyptic enough for me. Art? I will enjoy my art and you can wallow in fear. Fair exchange I would say.

You're the one that is being ridiculous or more like delusional! It's certainly nothing to do with wallowing in fear and it's not like it hasn't happened before?.

It is insanity to ignore history and to think " oh this time it's going to be different". It's simple reality that when the Fiat money is worth the same as toilet paper, there will be considerable disruption in society. How can it be apocalyptic when people like you have absolutely no solution or answer to paying down the sea of debt around the world and you have even advocated taking on more debt in some of your previous posts.

Edited February 20, 2013 by midas

[yoshiwara]

I don't think in those apocalyptic terms. And I think it is ridiculous to do so. I do think however about the continued holding of assets in the UK. That would be apocalyptic enough for me. Art? I will enjoy my art and you can wallow in fear. Fair exchange I would say.

You're the one that is being ridiculous or more like delusional! It's certainly nothing to do with wallowing in fear and it's not like it hasn't happened before?. It is insanity to ignore history and to think " oh this time it's going to be different". It's simple reality that when the Fiat money is worth the same as toilet paper, there will be considerable disruption in society. How can it be apocalyptic when people like you have absolutely no solution or answer to paying down the sea of debt around the world and you have even advocated taking on more debt in some of your previous posts.

....and he's off again for a good old wallow!

[Naam]

No "if it dips" for me. After selling in UK I'm down to about 2-3% of capital cash value, if including mortgages then about half that. So some serious buying I need to do regardless. But I'm thinking to spread it over next couple of months to hopefully take advantage of dip rather than go out and take all total one time.

I'm also looking for ways of diversified bht income. Any suggestions?

no suggestions from side as i never bothered about THB income except buying and holding ample cash. the simple reason is that i can achieve offshore a multiple yield in various currencies with calculable risks attached but without investing in (what i think) incalculable stock markets.

your mileage may vary!

[Naam]

I prefer income and dividends for investment.

I do have a weakness for Japanese art though.

And are you saying there is not even a tiny part of you that considers the risks of a societal breakdown with no law and order as we saw during the natural disasters ? And you are not in the slightest bit concerned that your Japanese artwork under those circumstances couldn't even be exchanged for a bottle of water?

In this video clip they certainly don't mention anything about trading loaves of bread for art work….only GOLD

why is it so difficult to understand that people are not buying works of art to exchange them for bread or for whatever? i think it is reasonable to assume that somebody who owns art valued 1 million owns an additional 9 million value in other assets, part of it most probably income producing and a part which can be easily exchanged for essentials if need arises.

note: for a real collector works of arts are not investments; they are a part of his life style and not meant to be sold ever. some people collect items which others might consider not only worthless but ridiculous. one man's junk is the other man's treasure is an old wisdom which does not require a stupid video clip for further explanation.

[midas]

I prefer income and dividends for investment.

I do have a weakness for Japanese art though.

And are you saying there is not even a tiny part of you that considers the risks of a societal breakdown with no law and order as we saw during the natural disasters ? And you are not in the slightest bit concerned that your Japanese artwork under those circumstances couldn't even be exchanged for a bottle of water?

In this video clip they certainly don't mention anything about trading loaves of bread for art work….only GOLD

why is it so difficult to understand that people are not buying works of art to exchange them for bread or for whatever? i think it is reasonable to assume that somebody who owns art valued 1 million owns an additional 9 million value in other assets, part of it most probably income producing and a part which can be easily exchanged for essentials if need arises.

note: for a real collector works of arts are not investments; they are a part of his life style and not meant to be sold ever. some people collect items which others might consider not only worthless but ridiculous. one man's junk is the other man's treasure is an old wisdom which does not require a stupid video clip for further explanation.

Okay , but in this example he seems to be choosing art ownership in preference to any gold ownership whatsoever? Isn't that shortsighted? If our societal living conditions suddenly change to the extent it becomes necessary to use some of that gold to buy essentials , ( which you said you purchased as an insurance policy ) then you have to visualise what you think will change or could even cease to exist in the new changed society? Of course none us know exactly because we never been here before when the whole world is in the same situation at the same time.

I can imagine all kinds of potential practical difficulties being able to liquidate or make use of what was previously say rare artwork. For example, will the government wherever you are still be allowing unrestricted access to the Internet or other means of communication? Without that, how can you even contact other like-minded potential purchasers? You will be relying on finding a potential buyer of your rare artwork that understands that market and still attaches an element of scarcity to its price. If communications are in any way hindered you may not even find easy to find someone that can even verify the authenticity of the item you are trying to liquidate or exchange for some other commodity or goods ?

And in Yoshiwara’s case what would happen if the only buyer, you can find for his Japanese artwork says to him “I'm only prepared to give you gold for it- take it or leave it “ ?!!

Edited February 20, 2013 by midas

[Naam]

Okay , but in this example he seems to be choosing art ownership in preference to any gold ownership whatsoever? Isn't that shortsighted? If our societal living conditions suddenly change to the extent it becomes necessary to use some of that gold to buy essentials , ( which you said you purchased as an insurance policy ) then you have to visualise what you think will change or could even cease to exist in the new changed society? Of course none us know exactly because we never been here before when the whole world is in the same situation at the same time.

I can imagine all kinds of potential practical difficulties being able to liquidate or make use of what was previously say rare artwork. For example, will the government wherever you are still be allowing unrestricted access to the Internet or other means of communication? Without that, how can you even contact other like-minded potential purchasers? You will be relying on finding a potential buyer of your rare artwork that understands that market and still attaches an element of scarcity to its price. If communications are in any way hindered you may not even find easy to find someone that can even verify the authenticity of the item you are trying to liquidate or exchange for some other commodity or goods ?

And in Yoshiwara’s case what would happen if the only buyer, you can find for his Japanese artwork says to him “I'm only prepared to give you gold for it- take it or leave it “ ?!!

-it is Yoshiwara's prerogative to be what you call "shortsighted",

-if the situation you are referring to materialises, both you and me have most probably more to fear that the government puts more restrictions on gold possession/trading than on works of fine art,

-however i admit that a Krüger Rand or some Baht weights of Gold can be traded more easily for essentials than a Picasso, a silk Nain, a Japanese ivory carving or an antique piece of furniture.

[Naam]

1597.90 = Central Bank of Moldavia selling?

[yoshiwara]

Since I think the end of the world story is nonsense I don't worry my silly little head about the disposal of art assets in such a scenario. In addition to art (ukiyo-e BTW) I like craftsmanship in furniture and well-made clothes. Certainly a life more pleasurable than jangling a bag of gold coins for company and snarling at the outside world.

[midas]

Okay , but in this example he seems to be choosing art ownership in preference to any gold ownership whatsoever? Isn't that shortsighted? If our societal living conditions suddenly change to the extent it becomes necessary to use some of that gold to buy essentials , ( which you said you purchased as an insurance policy ) then you have to visualise what you think will change or could even cease to exist in the new changed society? Of course none us know exactly because we never been here before when the whole world is in the same situation at the same time.

I can imagine all kinds of potential practical difficulties being able to liquidate or make use of what was previously say rare artwork. For example, will the government wherever you are still be allowing unrestricted access to the Internet or other means of communication? Without that, how can you even contact other like-minded potential purchasers? You will be relying on finding a potential buyer of your rare artwork that understands that market and still attaches an element of scarcity to its price. If communications are in any way hindered you may not even find easy to find someone that can even verify the authenticity of the item you are trying to liquidate or exchange for some other commodity or goods ?

And in Yoshiwara’s case what would happen if the only buyer, you can find for his Japanese artwork says to him “I'm only prepared to give you gold for it- take it or leave it “ ?!!

-it is Yoshiwara's prerogative to be what you call "shortsighted",

-if the situation you are referring to materialises, both you and me have most probably more to fear that the government puts more restrictions on gold possession/trading than on works of fine art,

-however i admit that a Krüger Rand or some Baht weights of Gold can be traded more easily for essentials than a Picasso, a silk Nain, a Japanese ivory carving or an antique piece of furniture.

That very subject is covered in this article.

I hope you don't mean confiscation like 1913 again?

Obama is now trying to introduce legislation to allow unrestricted rights to search people's homes for guns. I wondered what could be next……

The problem moving forward is fear of central bankers changing the rules and precluding the purchase of any PMs by the public, at any price. Death and taxes are touted as the two things one cannot escape, [not always true for the latter], but the certainty of lies anddeception by central bankers/planners runs an immediate third place.

http://www.tfmetalsr...-edgetraderplus

Edited February 20, 2013 by midas

[muchogra]

When gold is coming down it becomes awfully quiet here. Now it's 1601+. If this hangs around 1600+1.5 and 1600-1 for sometime, are we going to see something like a waterfall in Nakorn Nowhere?

Limiting oneself to one-way (up) is no way to win in either metals or equity! It's a long cycle too for the next one!

This is what the waterfall at Nakorn Nowhere looks like:

[Naam]

This is what the waterfall at Nakorn Nowhere looks like:

the fall is caused by too much buying by central banks and last not least by big orders from commercial banks which, by order of Basel III and the Galactic Gold Council™, must acquire gold to prop up their Tier1 capital... i think

[Naam]

I hope you don't mean confiscation...

that's exactly what i mean Midas! and i know of a €uropean country which has prepared (but not yet published/ratified legislation) that will restrict the rights of its citizens to handle their gold as they please.

i also suspect and assume that other €U countries are doing or planning the same

[muchogra]

"..without investing in (what i think) incalculable stock markets."

I don't disagree with this but there are times buying certain stocks seem infallible. Of course, you need to know when to get out and how much to rid and how much to keep.

I'll give you one example of a stock which I bought a truckload (about a year ago?) before the par was raised 6.4 times. After the par was raised, I bought a train load with tradings done along the way up till today but always maintaining a set minimum amount of shares. The stock is BTS. I bought between 0.78 and 0.81 before the par change. After the par change I bought a train load between 5.4 to 5.6. Here's the reason why I was so courageous. BTS had just started making some serious money and was going to pay a dividend around 3%. For such an operation, once it starts making money it's likely to continue making improved profit; plus a lot of foreign money has been flowing in then and they like punting big stocks. As long as there is money around, the often used indicator, the p/e ratio, can go to an unacceptable level.

I actually sold most of my BTS last week between 8.25 and 8.35. What I still got in hand are in fact at a cost of "zilch". It looks like it's still humping along. I bought some back at 8 on Friday and sold part of it at 8.10 but bought some more today at 8.15. Looking at it for the past few days if it again goes down to 7.95 or lower, I will liquidate most of it.

[Naam]

"..without investing in (what i think) incalculable stock markets."

I don't disagree with this but there are times buying certain stocks seem infallible. Of course, you need to know when to get out and how much to rid and how much to keep.

i don't deny that. what i was trying to say in a subtle way is that i am too stupid to invest in stocks

[midas]

Peter Schiff: It's Going To Hit The Fan During Obama's Second Term

! Edited February 20, 2013 by midas

[yoshiwara]

This is what the waterfall at Nakorn Nowhere looks like:

the fall is caused by too much buying by central banks and last not least by big orders from commercial banks which, by order of Basel III and the Galactic Gold Council™, must acquire gold to prop up their Tier1 capital... i think

That awful loss in gold as it approaches the 'death cross' could have paid for a very nice meal at Bentley's http://www.bentleys.org/

[yoshiwara]

Peter Schiff: It's Going To Hit The Fan During Obama's Second Term

Peter Schiff: Foaming fruitcake par example.

[farang000999]

Kind of interesting to see gold with these large declines in the face of the nearly daily news of Central Bankers defending their currency or threatening to defend their currency because it is too strong by printing money.

[farang000999]

Reality is that gold has not risen so much because of fear or Peter Schiff or anything like that. The price move upward is the result of money printing and the increased cost of mining the commodity. That is why the miners have been flat all this time despite the 20% yoy price increases.

Edited February 21, 2013 by farang000999

[yoshiwara]

Reality is that gold has not risen so much because of fear or Peter Schiff or anything like that. The price move upward is the result of money printing and the increased cost of mining the commodity. That is why the miners have been flat all this time despite the 20% yoy price increases.

Hello! Here's someone who believes gold is going up right now.

The next bus to roll down the street will be the Conspiracy Bus.

All Aboard!

[farang000999]

Yosh, you can give the Naam impersonation a break. Just ask him for an autograph or a date since that is obviously what this is all about.

[gerry53]

Reality is that gold has not risen so much because of fear or Peter Schiff or anything like that. The price move upward is the result of money printing and the increased cost of mining the commodity. That is why the miners have been flat all this time despite the 20% yoy price increases.

The "miners have been flat" is too funny. The big producers like Goldcorp and Barrick have a 1 year performance of -32% and -36%, I don't consider that "flat". Some of the smaller caps are down over 60% over the last 1 year period. Even the precious metal mutual funds are down around 18% year to date in 2013 (7 weeks) - is that flat?

It's a great time to be out of gold! I love playing the gold market but now is not the time, if it hits 12 - $1,300 an ounce I'll jump back in when I see conditions change favorably.

Edited February 21, 2013 by gerry53

[falkan]

Buy: ฿22050

Sell: ฿22150

Last Update: 2013-02-21 11:10

Price Change: -550

down down..

[farang000999]

It is hard to make money mining gold when the costs to mine it are so high compared to what it is selling for. This is actually bullish for gold, as the supply will be limited. Do you think there is a rush from long term physical holders of gold to sell because of the move down? What has changed fundamentally? Every Central Banker on the planet has let it be known that he wants to debase his currency. No, it is just a bunch of traders and computers looking at charts oblivious to the reasons investors are buying gold. It is a buying opportunity.

[Naam]

It is hard to make money mining gold when the costs to mine it are so high compared to what it is selling for. This is actually bullish for gold, as the supply will be limited. Do you think there is a rush from long term physical holders of gold to sell because of the move down? What has changed fundamentally? Every Central Banker on the planet has let it be known that he wants to debase his currency. No, it is just a bunch of traders and computers looking at charts oblivious to the reasons investors are buying gold. It is a buying opportunity.

hmmm... quite interesting! to which ones of the central bankers who want to debase their country's currency did you talk to? or are you just poking your nose and present your opinion based on these results?

[yoshiwara]

It is hard to make money mining gold when the costs to mine it are so high compared to what it is selling for. This is actually bullish for gold, as the supply will be limited. Do you think there is a rush from long term physical holders of gold to sell because of the move down? What has changed fundamentally? Every Central Banker on the planet has let it be known that he wants to debase his currency. No, it is just a bunch of traders and computers looking at charts oblivious to the reasons investors are buying gold. It is a buying opportunity.

The gold bugs have been singing that song all the way down from 1920.

Just a broken record.

[Naam]

It is hard to make money mining gold when the costs to mine it are so high compared to what it is selling for. This is actually bullish for gold, as the supply will be limited. Do you think there is a rush from long term physical holders of gold to sell because of the move down? What has changed fundamentally? Every Central Banker on the planet has let it be known that he wants to debase his currency. No, it is just a bunch of traders and computers looking at charts oblivious to the reasons investors are buying gold. It is a buying opportunity.

The gold bugs have been singing that song all the way down from 1920.

Just a broken record.

but something has indeed changed fundamentally, namely the goldbugs had to learn a second time that no asset, not even gold, moves in a one-way street.

[gerry53]

It is hard to make money mining gold when the costs to mine it are so high compared to what it is selling for. This is actually bullish for gold, as the supply will be limited. Do you think there is a rush from long term physical holders of gold to sell because of the move down? What has changed fundamentally? Every Central Banker on the planet has let it be known that he wants to debase his currency. No, it is just a bunch of traders and computers looking at charts oblivious to the reasons investors are buying gold. It is a buying opportunity.

You sound like one of the gold guru's who preach gold will hit $5,000 an ounce, it's just a matter of holding on to a losing proposition long enough? Almost like the "CHEERLEADERS" for the Hunt brothers who were trying to push silver to a $100 an ounce back in 1980 when it went back from $50 to about $5. The Turks, Sinclairs, Sprotts and the many other gold guru's also have a vested interest in promoting gold and gold stocks. The main error being their failure to adapt to changing conditions and hating to admit they were wrong. I am glad I sold my 100% position in gold stocks to reap profits in a more conservative equity portfolio. If I had stayed the course in gold these last 3 yearsI would have been down well over 20% each year instead of up +10% each year. When I choose to go back in to gold stocks I can buy many more units and really benefit from a positive market - I too believe that may happen eventually. All things go up and down and you have to be flexible instead of staying the course, I personally love riding the ups but riding the downs seems counter productive.

Edited February 21, 2013 by gerry53