Thai Culture And Materialism

[HS Mauberley]

I was wondering why Thai people are so crazy about acquiring newest mobile phones and the necessity to have a car (eventhough streets are full enough). Some people in my office that they have to lease expensive mobile phones eventhough their salry is scarce. Why are material goods so important in Thai culture eventhough it contradicts the essence of Buddhism?

I was wondering myself to, but it's not really bothering is it? I do find out that Asian people in general, love to chat with each other, their mobile is there second husband. I notice this cultural difference about the need to talk to somebody very clearly between Asia and Europe.

Excessive use of a mobile phone is hardly unique to Asia. I'm not sure where you're from but last time I was in England - only 3 months ago - there were thousands of mobile phone shops on the high street and, in fact, the UK has 74 million mobile phone connections - significantly more than one per person. I don't know what the figure is for Thailand but I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that it's not as high.

[Samuian]

I like to the freedom of traveling in a bus or on foot.

Well, I prefer the convenience of the car, and so are millions of Bangkokians.

Don't forget that people in the West have three four times more cars than Thais.

Well each to his own. I haved lived in Germany for the past 14 years and did not have the impression that there were that many cars. Maybe because of the better infrastructure. And there are no households with 4 or more cars.

Where did you stay, on the Zugspitze or on Helgoland?

In the early sixities in the area where I was growing up in Berlin, there was one car which belonged to the family of a doctor, one to an architect and one to some cork whole seller.... that remained so for quite a while.

Then the "Wirtschaftswunder" set in and people had rather similar to Thailand, Motorbikes, the BMW Isetta, "Snow whites Coffin" (Lloyd Goliath) to be entered from the top.... and then slowly, slowly the streets started to get busier till mid/end seventies, then it became tough to find a parking space in the block.

With this more Shops, Department Stores, Consumer goods came... today there is every few days a new cell phone, ipod, laptop, digi camera model, car, name it!

When I cam here to Samui, little less then 20 years ago, the road was half the width, very few motorbikes, much less cars, maybe every 20 Minutes there was a Songteow on the ring road.

It comes along with what we call "Development", Economy, Purchasing Power and along with this materialism rears it's ugly head.

Welcome to the globalized, stainless steel, chrome, glassy, glitzy world of the consumers temple!

[bonobo]

I like to the freedom of traveling in a bus or on foot.

Well, I prefer the convenience of the car, and so are millions of Bangkokians.

Don't forget that people in the West have three four times more cars than Thais.

I am often curious as to all the "facts" thrown around TV, so sometimes, if I am notbogged down with work, I do a little research.

From these two links:

http://cleantechlawandbusiness.com/cleanbe...ning-countries/

www.teacherweb.com/CT/middlesexmiddleschool/billscialo/DatabaseAsia.xls

it seems that Thailand has 274 cars per 1,000 people.  Portugal has 778, the US 755, and New Zealand 735.  So Plus' claim is not that far off.  At least one Western country has 2.85 times as many cars per capita as Thailand.

[drronnie]

I like to the freedom of traveling in a bus or on foot.

Well, I prefer the convenience of the car, and so are millions of Bangkokians.

Don't forget that people in the West have three four times more cars than Thais.

Well each to his own. I haved lived in Germany for the past 14 years and did not have the impression that there were that many cars. Maybe because of the better infrastructure. And there are no households with 4 or more cars.

Where did you stay, on the Zugspitze or on Helgoland?

In the early sixities in the area where I was growing up in Berlin, there was one car which belonged to the family of a doctor, one to an architect and one to some cork whole seller.... that remained so for quite a while.

Then the "Wirtschaftswunder" set in and people had rather similar to Thailand, Motorbikes, the BMW Isetta, "Snow whites Coffin" (Lloyd Goliath) to be entered from the top.... and then slowly, slowly the streets started to get busier till mid/end seventies, then it became tough to find a parking space in the block.

With this more Shops, Department Stores, Consumer goods came... today there is every few days a new cell phone, ipod, laptop, digi camera model, car, name it!

When I cam here to Samui, little less then 20 years ago, the road was half the width, very few motorbikes, much less cars, maybe every 20 Minutes there was a Songteow on the ring road.

It comes along with what we call "Development", Economy, Purchasing Power and along with this materialism rears it's ugly head.

Welcome to the globalized, stainless steel, chrome, glassy, glitzy world of the consumers temple!

I stayed in Bremen.

[Plus]

being stuck in traffic for two hours in your own car is like hel_l.

Huh? Beats being stuck on a bus or a taxi.

Motorbikes are ok for short trips, but not for rains or a 100km a day commute which is quite normal for a typical Bangkokian living in suburbs.

[Samuian]

lived in Germany for the past 14 years and did not have the impression that there were that many cars[/color

Where did you stay, on the Zugspitze or on Helgoland?

I stayed in Bremen.

Germany's 2nd largest harbor... did you stay there before the 60ties then?

[bkkjames]

being stuck in traffic for two hours in your own car is like hel_l.

Huh? Beats being stuck on a bus or a taxi.

Motorbikes are ok for short trips, but not for rains or a 100km a day commute which is quite normal for a typical Bangkokian living in suburbs.

100km commute to where, chonburi and back? hope you get frequent driving miles.

[drronnie]

lived in Germany for the past 14 years and did not have the impression that there were that many cars[/color

Where did you stay, on the Zugspitze or on Helgoland?

I stayed in Bremen.

Germany's 2nd largest harbor... did you stay there before the 60ties then?

no 1993 to 2005. und evtl haben Sie mich ja falsch verstanden. Ich meinte in Bremen gibt es kaum Haushalte mit mehr als 2 Autos pro Famile. Aber in Bangkok gibt es Familien mit ueber 5 Autos. Da fragt man sich ob das Not tut?

Edited October 29, 2008 by drronnie

[Datsun240Z]

I was wondering why Thai people are so crazy about acquiring newest mobile phones and the necessity to have a car (eventhough streets are full enough). Some people in my office that they have to lease expensive mobile phones eventhough their salry is scarce. Why are material goods so important in Thai culture eventhough it contradicts the essence of Buddhism?

I was wondering myself to, but it's not really bothering is it? I do find out that Asian people in general, love to chat with each other, their mobile is there second husband. I notice this cultural difference about the need to talk to somebody very clearly between Asia and Europe.

Excessive use of a mobile phone is hardly unique to Asia. I'm not sure where you're from but last time I was in England - only 3 months ago - there were thousands of mobile phone shops on the high street and, in fact, the UK has 74 million mobile phone connections - significantly more than one per person. I don't know what the figure is for Thailand but I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that it's not as high.

I'm from The Netherlands.

[bonobo]

being stuck in traffic for two hours in your own car is like hel_l.

Huh? Beats being stuck on a bus or a taxi.

Motorbikes are ok for short trips, but not for rains or a 100km a day commute which is quite normal for a typical Bangkokian living in suburbs.

100km commute to where, chonburi and back? hope you get frequent driving miles.

I live in Phasi Charoen and work in Omyai.  With 35 km each way, that gives me a door-to-door commute of 70 km. The good thing is that takes me about 35 minutes to go to work, and about 50 minutes to come home.  But when I go to Pin Klao to exercise after work, then that adds another 17 km to the journey.

When I first started working in Omyai, I lived on Soi Saladaeng. That added 10 km each way, but more importantly, it added about 45 minutes to an hour on the return home. 

Some day (in the far future) the BTS is supposed to reach Nakorn Pathom, and I will be able to take that. But until then, I drive.

[sylviex]

The world average commuting time is 40 minutes, one-way. This is the average for people that work. In Thailand, with the longest commuting times in the world, a total of 37 million hours is spent travelling to work everyday. If this number is doubled the total time commuting each day in Thailand can be calculated. The average working person living in Thailand spends 2 hours everyday travelling to and from work.

http://www.worldmapper.org/display.php?selected=141

"Currently, the average travel speed in central Bangkok during peak hours is just 7 mph for this lively city of 7.5 million." Bridges Magazine, 2005

At least in a bus or taxi you can read a book. Two hours' of stop-start driving requires enormous patience, though you can talk on your mobile phone, I guess .

Better public transport and/or bicycle use and fewer cars are what is needed all over the world.

Anyway, to return to the OP, I think one thing he may be noticing is the Asian tendency to display their consumer goodies in a different way than we foreigners perhaps might.

Edited October 29, 2008 by sylviex

[Thai at Heart]

I like to the freedom of traveling in a bus or on foot.

Well, I prefer the convenience of the car, and so are millions of Bangkokians.

Don't forget that people in the West have three four times more cars than Thais.

I am often curious as to all the "facts" thrown around TV, so sometimes, if I am notbogged down with work, I do a little research.

From these two links:

http://cleantechlawandbusiness.com/cleanbe...ning-countries/

www.teacherweb.com/CT/middlesexmiddleschool/billscialo/DatabaseAsia.xls

it seems that Thailand has 274 cars per 1,000 people.  Portugal has 778, the US 755, and New Zealand 735.  So Plus' claim is not that far off.  At least one Western country has 2.85 times as many cars per capita as Thailand.

And Bangkok has one of the lowest percentages of roadways per square kilometre in the world. For major cities, I understand that Paris is the highest. London is somewhere in the middle. So lets see the traffic in Bangkok if the ratio of cars per 1,000 ever approaches that of Portugal.

[drronnie]

Anyway, to return to the OP, I think one thing he may be noticing is the Asian tendency to display their consumer goodies in a different way than we foreigners perhaps might.

B I N G O ! Thank is the point I am trying to make. It is like back in school where everyone is trying to show their newset Nike and Addidas shoes. And if you are the one wearing Puma you are called a loser. However I am suprised that in the adult world people act like this with cars, handbags or mobiles. And if you do not have any of these then you are unsociable. Does not make sense at all.

Not that I do not have the money, but I do not see any reason to purchase a new mobile for 20,000 Baht every 3 months. It is better to have the money in the bank for hard.

[bonobo]

At least in a bus or taxi you can read a book. Two hours' of stop-start driving requires enormous patience, though you can talk on your mobile phone, I guess .

Can't talk on the phone anymore. It is against the law now.

I have a decent drive to and from work.  But I always have a book in the car, and if I have to go into Bangkok proper, I will read at the lights. Coming over the Taksin Bridge into Bangkok, having a 20-minute red light at that first intersection is quite common even if a 12-14 minute light is more the norm.

Edited October 29, 2008 by bonobo

[bonobo]

I like to the freedom of traveling in a bus or on foot.

Well, I prefer the convenience of the car, and so are millions of Bangkokians.

Don't forget that people in the West have three four times more cars than Thais.

I am often curious as to all the "facts" thrown around TV, so sometimes, if I am notbogged down with work, I do a little research.

From these two links:

http://cleantechlawandbusiness.com/cleanbe...ning-countries/

www.teacherweb.com/CT/middlesexmiddleschool/billscialo/DatabaseAsia.xls

it seems that Thailand has 274 cars per 1,000 people.  Portugal has 778, the US 755, and New Zealand 735.  So Plus' claim is not that far off.  At least one Western country has 2.85 times as many cars per capita as Thailand.

And Bangkok has one of the lowest percentages of roadways per square kilometre in the world. For major cities, I understand that Paris is the highest. London is somewhere in the middle. So lets see the traffic in Bangkok if the ratio of cars per 1,000 ever approaches that of Portugal.

Certainly Bangkok has worse traffic.  Only Cairo has worse that Bangkok.  There are so many places where you simply cannot drive directly from one place to another. I missed the turn-off for the southern bus station last week, and I ended up driving 25 km just to get back there.  There just are not enough roads, and the ones which do exist have traffic patterns which boggle my poor mind (like five parallel and adjoining one-way roads--but where all travel the same direction, or where one road has southbound traffic except for one block where only northbound is allowed making all the southbound drivers detour about 5 kms to get around the gap.)

[HS Mauberley]

I was wondering why Thai people are so crazy about acquiring newest mobile phones and the necessity to have a car (eventhough streets are full enough). Some people in my office that they have to lease expensive mobile phones eventhough their salry is scarce. Why are material goods so important in Thai culture eventhough it contradicts the essence of Buddhism?

I was wondering myself to, but it's not really bothering is it? I do find out that Asian people in general, love to chat with each other, their mobile is there second husband. I notice this cultural difference about the need to talk to somebody very clearly between Asia and Europe.

Excessive use of a mobile phone is hardly unique to Asia. I'm not sure where you're from but last time I was in England - only 3 months ago - there were thousands of mobile phone shops on the high street and, in fact, the UK has 74 million mobile phone connections - significantly more than one per person. I don't know what the figure is for Thailand but I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that it's not as high.

I'm from The Netherlands.

A quick Google search reveals 13 million mobile phones in the Netherlands amongst a population of 16 million and, in Thailand, 29 million mobile phone (users not phones so not sure how that will differ) amongst a population of 65 million. However, landline usage in Thailand covers only 24% of households, which is going to be massively lower than anywhere in Europe or North America and which will also explain why people seem to chat a lot - if you're doing it on a mobile and not on a landline, there's a much greater chance of being seen to chat. But being seen to chat more doesn't necessarily mean that you are chatting more.

B I N G O ! biggrin.gif Thank is the point I am trying to make. It is like back in school where everyone is trying to show their newset Nike and Addidas shoes. And if you are the one wearing Puma you are called a loser. However I am suprised that in the adult world people act like this with cars, handbags or mobiles. And if you do not have any of these then you are unsociable. Does not make sense at all.

Not that I do not have the money, but I do not see any reason to purchase a new mobile for 20,000 Baht every 3 months. It is better to have the money in the bank for hard.

It's not Thailand that's in the shit because of a consumer boom based on massive flows of cheap credit. The situation is certainly not great here but it's simply incorrect to pretend that consumerism is more established in Thailand than it is in the West; if you want to look at a nation living beyond it's means, inspect the British economy.

[IMA_FARANG]

I was wondering why Thai people are so crazy about acquiring newest mobile phones and the necessity to have a car (eventhough streets are full enough). Some people in my office that they have to lease expensive mobile phones eventhough their salry is scarce. Why are material goods so important in Thai culture eventhough it contradicts the essence of Buddhism?

Jeez....have you been asleep the last 20 years or so,and just woke up?

Or are you just one of those "got to bash the "Thai people" at least once a day" types?

30 years ago when I first came to Thailand, it really was just emerging from being a third-world country.

Now, at least in the urban areas, it's more like Europe and the U.S.

A midle-class has emerged, and it has (relitvely speaking) money to spend.

When it gets that money the middle class wants to use it provide for a better life.

Cellphones are freedom for much of that middle-class. They are not tied to a government phone network (by comparison) that is corrupt and inefficient.

Automobiles mean you can go somwehere in the city without waiting for buses.

My gorlfeinds sister used to work at an office outin the Silom road area. She lived out by Don Muang. It took her an average of 2 hours each way to go to and get home from work. And that was on "good" days.

Go to India, millions of people have cellphones.

Go to China, same thing.

In africa, csllphones are common. If you can't afford one yourseld, there are strretside stalls where you can rent a cellphone from some market trader for a samll fee per call.

My conclusion: your just bored and want to start some uselss topic. Thai bashing is fun, so you try that.

From that fact I conclude you must be a Brit.

[MidoriApple]

their mobile is there second husband....

Wrong!!!

Is the first husband, actually.. If I have to choose one between my future husband and cell phone. Guess sii, which one chosen?

I was materialism when I was young, but no more.. as seeing more of the world, travelling more...

sometimes to have newest stuffs is not important, it costs and I feel like I have thrown my money away without anything worth back.

I love gadget-things, and often update it's info,

but when buying, I always ask myself, is it necessary to buy, what to use with it? Can I substitute in using with my stuffs that I have already had?

About car, yes, I do have my own car. But I don't have the most update model or the luxury one.

IMO, car is also important in living here in BKK whilst I have to carry heavy things to use in my shop

and you will see Thailand's public transportation is not adequate, right?

But even I have my own car, I also go around BKK by my own feets, tuk tuk, bus, boat, motorcycle-taxi, etc...

Why not? I always choose the most comfortable ways.

To said about Thailand's society, yes, it's about the fear of losing face as well.

Is so pathetic...IMO

[GuestHouse]

I wonder to what extent the observations regarding Materialism in Thais is based on an assumption that Thais should not be two things:

1. Materialistic - from the myth that Thais actually listen to what Buddhism has to teach them.

2. Wealthy - from the some self told lie that Thais don't have any money.

While on the flipside the assumptions of western social values ( and note here people are complaining about generalizations on the values of 60 milllion Thais while passing over the generalizations on the values of 1billion westerners).

[MKAsok]

It is like back in school where everyone is trying to show their newset Nike and Addidas shoes. And if you are the one wearing Puma you are called a loser.

Cortez and Gazelles were my favorites when I was a kid. As a mate of mine once said: "I'd rather see my sister in a whorehouse than be caught wearing Pumas." Having said that, I quite like some Puma stuff (t-shirts, bags etc. still wouldn't wear Puma trainers).

[bonobo]

At the risk of posting over-generalizations, I will make the following observations:

I do think that people from just about all cultures value new things, better things. From our days as hunter-gatherers, I think it is in our genes.  In the US, we have the phrase, "He who dies with the most toys, wins." So I don't think Thai materialism is that much different as how people act in most other cultures.

I do think that Thais are a little more conspicuous in their exhibition of that materialism that people from some other cultures. Thais join Chinese, Japanese, Russians, and others, for example, which place status on how much you paid for something.

In the US, status is often granted on how much you pay for something as well, but in reverse. Someone who can find a product at a less cost is considered a good shopper, and someone who can find something which costs less but is of the same quality is considered very smart. Even quite wealthy people shop at WalMart and revel over bargains they find.

We all tend to want new things. But in a vast generalization of differences, Thais and people from some other cultures might gloat over how much they spent to get something, but an American and people from some other cultures might gloat on how little they spent to get something. But bottom line, they both are looking to get newer and better toys.

[clausewitz]

Thais are social creatures - they exchange music, pictures, ringtones, news, gossip - if you have an older phone without camera or MP3, you are socially fuc_ked.

And yes, they love to talk, on the phone or in person - is that so materialistic? I don't see it that way.

>>>

I don't remember exact numbers now, or where I got them, but in Thailand it's still 2 cars per 10 people, while in the West it's about 8 per 10. Bangkok is close to that number, though, if you discount migrant workers from the total population.

Walking in Germany on a crispy autumn day with last rays of sunshine is not quite the same as sweating out through potholes on Sukhumwit in 40C and a good chance of tropical downpoor in the next five minutes. Or try getting caught on the crowded bus in the rain when they shut all windows down.

I'd take a car anytime.

Well, being stuck in traffic for two hours in your own car is like hel_l. I drove in Bangkok streets for 1/2 year but then I said never again. I only use my motorcycle, take taxi or bus.

Hope you don't mind my directness but you come across as a bit of a clown, and a liar. A while back you indicated your salary was 11,000baht a month or thereabouts! Now you own a car and a motorbike but don't even use the car. Even a cheap car like mine costs over 300,000 baht - how do you justify keeping it in the garage? Oh yes, I forgot, you only work for 'experience'. Tell the truth, did you really ever drive in bangkok? It has very convenient freeways with easy access everywhere, I drive everyday and would get stuck in traffic (for 20 minutes at the most )less than once a week.

[HS Mauberley]

I wonder to what extent the observations regarding Materialism in Thais is based on an assumption that Thais should not be two things:

1. Materialistic - from the myth that Thais actually listen to what Buddhism has to teach them.

2. Wealthy - from the some self told lie that Thais don't have any money.

While on the flipside the assumptions of western social values ( and note here people are complaining about generalizations on the values of 60 milllion Thais while passing over the generalizations on the values of 1billion westerners).

Yes. I suspect that half-arsed sociological 'observations' such as the OP have nothing to do with any actual observation and everything to do with a sub-racist Orientalist fantasy about how the natives ought to be (ie slaving in the field and happy with a wooden shack and nothing more technologically advanced than a candle and a spoon.)

[clausewitz]

I wonder to what extent the observations regarding Materialism in Thais is based on an assumption that Thais should not be two things:

1. Materialistic - from the myth that Thais actually listen to what Buddhism has to teach them.

2. Wealthy - from the some self told lie that Thais don't have any money.

While on the flipside the assumptions of western social values ( and note here people are complaining about generalizations on the values of 60 milllion Thais while passing over the generalizations on the values of 1billion westerners).

Yes. I suspect that half-arsed sociological 'observations' such as the OP have nothing to do with any actual observation and everything to do with a sub-racist Orientalist fantasy about how the natives ought to be (ie slaving in the field and happy with a wooden shack and nothing more technologically advanced than a candle and a spoon.)

Nicelt put- and notice how the elite Thais like PAD leader Sondhi and General Chamlong expect the upcountry natives to know their place- i.e as contended servants .

[Samuian]

lived in Germany for the past 14 years and did not have the impression that there were that many cars[/color

Where did you stay, on the Zugspitze or on Helgoland?

I stayed in Bremen.

Germany's 2nd largest harbor... did you stay there before the 60ties then?

no 1993 to 2005. und evtl haben Sie mich ja falsch verstanden. Ich meinte in Bremen gibt es kaum Haushalte mit mehr als 2 Autos pro Famile. Aber in Bangkok gibt es Familien mit ueber 5 Autos. Da fragt man sich ob das Not tut?

Now I know!

It's a big difference!

But as per capita statistics show, there are many more cars in Portugal AND in Germany then in Thailand, seems like they are all concentrating in Bangkok, some conspiracy, maybe?

But I think that Materialism has nothing in particular with Thai, cars and the Thai culture in common, or that they love cars so much because being Thai or Buddhist, I think this is a wee bit too far fetched, it's a (in)human failure in the process of evolution, but then some argue that because of this phenomenon there is evolution, others, more simple minds or so called believers think it's the devil or something like this!

Ah' well I after all I only hope that they won't run out of petrol too soon, THEN many have a problem!

Who can tell for sure?

Edited October 29, 2008 by Samuian

[Mattchu9999]

"The things you own end up owning you"

"Your not your <deleted>**ing kakhies"

-Tyler Durden

[Misplaced]

yes, it does. For exmaple in Thailand if you do not have a car nobody will even look at you.

Malaysia is exactly the same....status symbols. I've met people who own car more expensive then their house. I asked them about it and they said expensive car portrays them as successful businessmen otherwise nobody would take them seriously. Go figure....

Don't forget to mentioned the good old USA. People here drives around in a luxury car, lives in expensive home, coffee at starbuck while barely making bills at the end of the month. A lot of people are defaulting on loans and now we are all paying for it. ALL FOR THE SAKE OF BEING "MR BIG SHOT" IN SOCIETY

Same same all over the world not just in Asia.

[Misplaced]

At the risk of posting over-generalizations, I will make the following observations:

I do think that people from just about all cultures value new things, better things. From our days as hunter-gatherers, I think it is in our genes.  In the US, we have the phrase, "He who dies with the most toys, wins." So I don't think Thai materialism is that much different as how people act in most other cultures.

I do think that Thais are a little more conspicuous in their exhibition of that materialism that people from some other cultures. Thais join Chinese, Japanese, Russians, and others, for example, which place status on how much you paid for something.

In the US, status is often granted on how much you pay for something as well, but in reverse. Someone who can find a product at a less cost is considered a good shopper, and someone who can find something which costs less but is of the same quality is considered very smart. Even quite wealthy people shop at WalMart and revel over bargains they find.

We all tend to want new things. But in a vast generalization of differences, Thais and people from some other cultures might gloat over how much they spent to get something, but an American and people from some other cultures might gloat on how little they spent to get something. But bottom line, they both are looking to get newer and better toys.

Exactly, great post

[Heng]

Uh yeah, didn't you know that Thailand consumes more than 40% of the world's natural resources to meet its materialistic requirements?

If anything, the only reason these types of threads exist is because some folks can't seem to handle it when they are lacking in the "material(s)" category. Some even take it further by trying to argue how one can never be truly happy until one gives most of it away (apparently in hopes that that would narrow the gap somewhat).

[soundman]

I was wondering why Thai people are so crazy about acquiring newest mobile phones and the necessity to have a car (eventhough streets are full enough). Some people in my office that they have to lease expensive mobile phones eventhough their salry is scarce. Why are material goods so important in Thai culture eventhough it contradicts the essence of Buddhism?

And how is this different than people from most of the cultures in the world?

yes, it does. For exmaple in Thailand if you do not have a car nobody will even look at you.

Probably been said allready in this thread, I couldn't be assed reading through it, however it seems you have answered your own question right there.