The Democrats Propose Internet Legistlation

[Bangyai]

From the Nation :

Democrat proposes draft legistlation against monarchy offenders in cyberspace :

A group of MPs from the opposition Democrat party Tuesday proposed a draft legistlation that would penalise people spreading defamatory remarks or contemptuous tones against the monarchy on the internet or via computers.

Full article :

www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/read.php?newsid=30088726

The Democrats have tried this before back in May when they demanded that the govournment take action against 29 sites they alleged had LM content. One of those sites was ' Prachatai ' . When Prachatai looked into the allegations it found instead that the 29 sites were not in favour of the Democrat party itself .

www.prachatai.com/english/news.php?id=655

This Topic is not about LM so no further reference to it need be made. Many people think of the Democrats as the only viable option to the two main protagonists and imagine that they are the only ' clean option ' . Yet in the above articles it seems that the Democrats also would like to stifle people who don't think much of them. Back in January, the popular Thai website ' sameskybooks.com was closed down after a cyberspace attack flooded the site with LM remarks. The site had a reputation for exploring touchy political topics.

If the Democrats succeed in their proposed legistlation it will be another blow to freedom of speech since any reference to the Monarchy at all will become LM and it will become that much easier to silence web sites hosting political discussions.

[cmsally]

From the Nation :

Democrat proposes draft legistlation against monarchy offenders in cyberspace :

A group of MPs from the opposition Democrat party Tuesday proposed a draft legistlation that would penalise people spreading defamatory remarks or contemptuous tones against the monarchy on the internet or via computers.

Full article :

www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/read.php?newsid=30088726

The Democrats have tried this before back in May when they demanded that the govournment take action against 29 sites they alleged had LM content. One of those sites was ' Prachatai ' . When Prachatai looked into the allegations it found instead that the 29 sites were not in favour of the Democrat party itself .

www.prachatai.com/english/news.php?id=655

This Topic is not about LM so no further reference to it need be made. Many people think of the Democrats as the only viable option to the two main protagonists and imagine that they are the only ' clean option ' . Yet in the above articles it seems that the Democrats also would like to stifle people who don't think much of them. Back in January, the popular Thai website ' sameskybooks.com was closed down after a cyberspace attack flooded the site with LM remarks. The site had a reputation for exploring touchy political topics.

If the Democrats succeed in their proposed legistlation it will be another blow to freedom of speech since any reference to the Monarchy at all will become LM and it will become that much easier to silence web sites hosting political discussions.

I saw this posted earlier on a few websites and there is a very good link to the history of law about LM laws both past and present (I think it was on BKK PUndit).

Quite frankly I don't think there is any free speech in Thailand at all regarding many subjects, and this would just be another nail in the coffin.

I guess you can pile another rock onto the pressure cooker lid, but you can only keep it on for so long. A more healthy option is for release of pressure at regular intervals.

[Bangyai]

From the Nation :

Democrat proposes draft legistlation against monarchy offenders in cyberspace :

A group of MPs from the opposition Democrat party Tuesday proposed a draft legistlation that would penalise people spreading defamatory remarks or contemptuous tones against the monarchy on the internet or via computers.

Full article :

www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/read.php?newsid=30088726

The Democrats have tried this before back in May when they demanded that the govournment take action against 29 sites they alleged had LM content. One of those sites was ' Prachatai ' . When Prachatai looked into the allegations it found instead that the 29 sites were not in favour of the Democrat party itself .

www.prachatai.com/english/news.php?id=655

This Topic is not about LM so no further reference to it need be made. Many people think of the Democrats as the only viable option to the two main protagonists and imagine that they are the only ' clean option ' . Yet in the above articles it seems that the Democrats also would like to stifle people who don't think much of them. Back in January, the popular Thai website ' sameskybooks.com was closed down after a cyberspace attack flooded the site with LM remarks. The site had a reputation for exploring touchy political topics.

If the Democrats succeed in their proposed legistlation it will be another blow to freedom of speech since any reference to the Monarchy at all will become LM and it will become that much easier to silence web sites hosting political discussions.

I saw this posted earlier on a few websites and there is a very good link to the history of law about LM laws both past and present (I think it was on BKK PUndit).

Quite frankly I don't think there is any free speech in Thailand at all regarding many subjects, and this would just be another nail in the coffin.

I guess you can pile another rock onto the pressure cooker lid, but you can only keep it on for so long. A more healthy option is for release of pressure at regular intervals.

Agreed, and the above articles are only the tip of the iceburg. All parties are aware of the effectiveness of the internet to pass on both information and propaganda and all parties are interested in either exploiting it or clamping down on it.

[Bangyai]

I see that Harry Nicolaides has been refused bail for the fourth time now.:

http://www.prachatai.com/english/news.php?id=890

If the democrats come to power his chances of ever getting bail are not likely to improve and some of the legistlation already proposed by the dems will likely move nearer to becoming fact

[digitele]

They'll all selfish puppets in this continuing drama....

Cha-Ching!

[sriracha john]

The Duplicate and Closed Thread thread...

Edited December 9, 2008 by sriracha john

[Samuian]

........

Quite frankly I don't think there is any free speech in Thailand at all regarding many subjects, and this would just be another nail in the coffin.

..............

Well there are taboos, do's AND dont's - anywhere on this planet!

as a foreigner have sex with a local women in Yemen or Nigeria.

Go to pakistan on any market place and tell them that the prophet was a ....!

Or to now Mekka/Saudi Arabia and sell to the people on haj pork and make sure you bring a dog and some cans of beer...!

go to Germany deny the holocaust!

or wear some Nazi insignia, you can easily sport on pattayas beach road...

to England and occupy the runway of stanstedt airfield.

make a movie in the Netherlands which is critical of the Qur'an.

draw some cartoons about Islam figures and have them published...

it's laughable, people under the circumstances given, here in the Kingdom of Thailand, all the mudslinging going on, people are concerned about "freedom of speech" if there is a thread to have a few web pages shut down, which do have some questionable content.

especially this content, does concern a certain taboo....now the dems become the target... I scratch my head, really...

Edited December 9, 2008 by Samuian

[bonobo]

as a foreigner have sex with a local women in Yemen or Nigeria.

I have never been to Yemen, but I am returning to Nigeria tomorrow night on a short business trip. I am not fond of the place at all, but sexual repression is not one of its bad points. Like most of equatorial Africa, promiscuity is the rule rather than the exception to it. This can have its own health consequences, but regardless, a foreigner having sex with a local in Nigeria would not turn a head there.

[girlx]

it's laughable, people under the circumstances given, here in the Kingdom of Thailand, all the mudslinging going on, people are concerned about "freedom of speech" if there is a thread to have a few web pages shut down, which do have some questionable content.

gee, you're right... censorship is ok then...?!????!??!?

[Denim]

........

Quite frankly I don't think there is any free speech in Thailand at all regarding many subjects, and this would just be another nail in the coffin.

..............

it's laughable, people under the circumstances given, here in the Kingdom of Thailand, all the mudslinging going on, people are concerned about "freedom of speech" if there is a thread to have a few web pages shut down, which do have some questionable content.

especially this content, does concern a certain taboo....now the dems become the target... I scratch my head, really...

Glad you're not worried. Last year they blocked You Tube for several months. I guess you figure its o.k. if they block Thai Visa for allowing political threads ?

[cmsally]

it's laughable, people under the circumstances given, here in the Kingdom of Thailand, all the mudslinging going on, people are concerned about "freedom of speech" if there is a thread to have a few web pages shut down, which do have some questionable content.

gee, you're right... censorship is ok then...?!????!??!?

Maybe take 2 minutes to think about a certain Aust. man who is at this moment still sitting in jail.

Taboos are not really the issue here , it is the freedom to merely receive information and talk about things.

Everyone should have the right to access information and make their own decisions. Everyone should have the freedom to talk and rationalise those decisions. You will always have some people "on the edge" traversing that grey area between what is acceptable to some and not to others. Hats off to them , they are the ones that the preserve the freedom of speech for others not so bold.

[jasreeve17]

It's hard to defend such outdated 'laws'; power, power, power...

So, Abhisit is the new modern Western educated face of Thai politics? Oh dear, the debts are being paid already...

Freedom of speech is the fundamental to democracy and equality. Groups that clamp down on freedom of speech cannot, and should not, be truested / respected. Poor guy, (maybe a tad silly too) I hope he gets out soon and this new proposal is trashed.

[Bangyai]

it's laughable, people under the circumstances given, here in the Kingdom of Thailand, all the mudslinging going on, people are concerned about "freedom of speech" if there is a thread to have a few web pages shut down, which do have some questionable content.

gee, you're right... censorship is ok then...?!????!??!?

Maybe take 2 minutes to think about a certain Aust. man who is at this moment still sitting in jail.

Taboos are not really the issue here , it is the freedom to merely receive information and talk about things.

Everyone should have the right to access information and make their own decisions. Everyone should have the freedom to talk and rationalise those decisions. You will always have some people "on the edge" traversing that grey area between what is acceptable to some and not to others. Hats off to them , they are the ones that the preserve the freedom of speech for others not so bold.

Considering the crime of the Australian man still sitting in jail and the fact that he has been refused bail it is all the more galling to see Sondhi Limongkul roaming free.??? Double standards ??? Sondhi was sentanced to three years in jail and a 300,000 baht fine for LM crimes but it is seemingly o.k. because he is fighting the controlers fight. I have tried to find a news clipping that confirms this sentance has been overturned but have not been successful.In fact the article in the Bangkok Post that reported Sondhis sentance , states that the court refused to suspend the sentance ?

So what do the democrats have to say about Sondhi crossing the line that they have drawn. Nothing at all. Its o.k for friends to do it but don't try it if you're not a fan of the democrats.

[Ricardo]

as a foreigner have sex with a local women in Yemen or Nigeria.

I have never been to Yemen, but I am returning to Nigeria tomorrow night on a short business trip. I am not fond of the place at all, but sexual repression is not one of its bad points. Like most of equatorial Africa, promiscuity is the rule rather than the exception to it. This can have its own health consequences, but regardless, a foreigner having sex with a local in Nigeria would not turn a head there.

Having spent I couple of years living & working in the Yemen Arab Republic, I would suspect that there would be no problem, provided the foreigner and the local woman were married. The same rule would apply equally to any local man, who had sex with a local woman, in this fairly Moslem country. Unmarried sitting-in-the-same-room would be vigourously discouraged, on the grounds of immorality, in both cases !

Re the thread-topic, sooner or later freedom of speech has to be introduced into Thailand, along with media-freedom. The Democrats should start thinking about how to achieve this in a measured fashion, rather than assuming that Thai governments will always be able to achieve thought-control, through the courts. They can not !

[sriracha john]

Sondhi was sentanced to three years in jail and a 300,000 baht fine for LM crimes but it is seemingly o.k. because he is fighting the controlers fight. I have tried to find a news clipping that confirms this sentance has been overturned but have not been successful.

You probably didn't find an article confirming his sentence was overturned because he was never sentenced to 3 years for LM in the first place.

As for the Australian, perhaps the fact that the original and follow-up thread about him are both closed is an indication that it is not a suitable subject to pontificate about.

Edited December 9, 2008 by sriracha john

[Bangyai]

Sondhi was sentanced to three years in jail and a 300,000 baht fine for LM crimes but it is seemingly o.k. because he is fighting the controlers fight. I have tried to find a news clipping that confirms this sentance has been overturned but have not been successful.

You probably didn't find an article confirming his sentence was overturned because he was never sentenced to 3 years for LM in the first place.

Thats strange then SJ ??? Why then , did the Bangkok Post run a story saying that the criminal court had sentanced Sondhi to 3 years. It wasn't April fools day ??

http://www.bangkokpost.com/election2007/26..._261207_04.html

And please mods, don't delete this.

[sriracha john]

Sondhi was sentanced to three years in jail and a 300,000 baht fine for LM crimes but it is seemingly o.k. because he is fighting the controlers fight. I have tried to find a news clipping that confirms this sentance has been overturned but have not been successful.

You probably didn't find an article confirming his sentence was overturned because he was never sentenced to 3 years for LM in the first place.

Thats strange then SJ ??? Why then , did the Bangkok Post run a story saying that the criminal court had sentanced Sondhi to 3 years. It wasn't April fools day ??

http://www.bangkokpost.com/election2007/26..._261207_04.html

And please mods, don't delete this.

Do you understand that he was not charged with LM as you said he was and I said he wasn't and that which is shown by your article link?

The mods might consider closing this thread as it's a duplicate thread of the original thread discussing this topic and it was closed.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Thailand-Bui...-o-t219811.html

This thread also duplicates the the topic discussed in another closed thread:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Aussie-Refus...74.html&hl=

that's why this earned the moniker....

The Duplicate and Closed Thread thread...

Edited December 10, 2008 by sriracha john

[Pierrot]

The mods might consider closing this thread as ....

Call to the administrators of this forum.

On numerous occasions, SJ has acted as he was part of the moderator team and made direct threat to posters.

Please clarify.

Is SJ part of the moderator team? Then it would be nice to give some "color" to his title so everybody will be aware of his status. If not, please remind him he's "one of us" and his pontifical remarks are not welcomed.

Thank you.

[Colonel_Mustard]

it's laughable, people under the circumstances given, here in the Kingdom of Thailand, all the mudslinging going on, people are concerned about "freedom of speech" if there is a thread to have a few web pages shut down, which do have some questionable content.

gee, you're right... censorship is ok then...?!????!??!?

I'm sure he'd be raging against it if it was the TRT/PPP or the like proposing it. As it is the 'democrats' of course he'll think it's ok.

[Colonel_Mustard]

The mods might consider closing this thread as ....

Call to the administrators of this forum.

On numerous occasions, SJ has acted as he was part of the moderator team and made direct threat to posters.

Please clarify.

Is SJ part of the moderator team? Then it would be nice to give some "color" to his title so everybody will be aware of his status. If not, please remind him he's "one of us" and his pontifical remarks are not welcomed.

Thank you.

He does seem more than a tad keen on requesting the closure of threads that don't suit his political agenda. I'm sure if the thread was condemming Thaksin, he'd be quite happy for it to remain.

[sriracha john]

And please mods, don't delete this.

The mods might consider closing this thread as ....

Call to the administrators of this forum.

On numerous occasions, SJ has acted as he was part of the moderator team and made direct threat to posters.

Please clarify.

Is SJ part of the moderator team? Then it would be nice to give some "color" to his title so everybody will be aware of his status. If not, please remind him he's "one of us" and his pontifical remarks are not welcomed.

I've never claimed to be a mod. I made a suggestion to the mods, same as the post I was quoting (re-inserted above).

Anyone with posting privileges enjoys the same ability, even you with your post.

[sriracha john]

The mods might consider closing this thread as ....

Call to the administrators of this forum.

On numerous occasions, SJ has acted as he was part of the moderator team and made direct threat to posters.

Please clarify.

Is SJ part of the moderator team? Then it would be nice to give some "color" to his title so everybody will be aware of his status. If not, please remind him he's "one of us" and his pontifical remarks are not welcomed.

Thank you.

He does seem more than a tad keen on requesting the closure of threads that don't suit his political agenda. I'm sure if the thread was condemming Thaksin, he'd be quite happy for it to remain.

I'm keen on closing duplicate threads that pre-exist or were closed in accordance with thaivisa protocol or forum rules.

It helps to cut down on the duplication and allows the forum to run smoother.... which you probably don't care about. It is, however, how the forum (not me) has decided to run things and that is evidenced by the number of closed, duplicate threads on a whole range of topics.

[Siripon]

Presumably any members found guilty of insulting the mods is also guilty of LM- lese moderator!

[h90]

........

Quite frankly I don't think there is any free speech in Thailand at all regarding many subjects, and this would just be another nail in the coffin.

..............

Well there are taboos, do's AND dont's - anywhere on this planet!

as a foreigner have sex with a local women in Yemen or Nigeria.

Go to pakistan on any market place and tell them that the prophet was a ....!

Or to now Mekka/Saudi Arabia and sell to the people on haj pork and make sure you bring a dog and some cans of beer...!

go to Germanyor Austria, we put an english guy in jail for question some parts of the official history deny the holocaust!

or wear some Nazi insignia, you can easily sport on pattayas beach road...

to England and occupy the runway of stanstedt airfield.

make a movie in the Netherlands which is critical of the Qur'an.

draw some cartoons about Islam figures and have them published...

it's laughable, people under the circumstances given, here in the Kingdom of Thailand, all the mudslinging going on, people are concerned about "freedom of speech" if there is a thread to have a few web pages shut down, which do have some questionable content.

especially this content, does concern a certain taboo....now the dems become the target... I scratch my head, really...

I am against any cencsor....but the next is people coming with some child abuse pages....have to agree that this must not be allowed, than some nazis promote killing jews....OK that must not be allowed......and at the end you are trapped to agree with cencsorship....

[cmsally]

Sondhi was sentanced to three years in jail and a 300,000 baht fine for LM crimes but it is seemingly o.k. because he is fighting the controlers fight. I have tried to find a news clipping that confirms this sentance has been overturned but have not been successful.

You probably didn't find an article confirming his sentence was overturned because he was never sentenced to 3 years for LM in the first place.

Thats strange then SJ ??? Why then , did the Bangkok Post run a story saying that the criminal court had sentanced Sondhi to 3 years. It wasn't April fools day ??

http://www.bangkokpost.com/election2007/26..._261207_04.html

And please mods, don't delete this.

Do you understand that he was not charged with LM as you said he was and I said he wasn't and that which is shown by your article link?

The mods might consider closing this thread as it's a duplicate thread of the original thread discussing this topic and it was closed.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Thailand-Bui...-o-t219811.html

This thread also duplicates the the topic discussed in another closed thread:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Aussie-Refus...74.html&hl=

that's why this earned the moniker....

The Duplicate and Closed Thread thread...

If you don't want to participate in a certain discussion. Then it is really quite easy; you just ignore the topic.

Why the need to stamp on other peoples' points of view.

Lots of threads are duplicated in some one way or another, why the need to seek censorship for others?

Back to topic, it will be interesting to see how much the Democrats have tied themselves to censorship and the concentration of bureaucratic power. It will be a fight over appearance and substance. However sooner or later mutton dressed as lamb really does appear to look as mutton.

One thing that disturbs me though is the number of foreigners that appear to accept or agree with issues of censorship. Most of us only have to look a generation or two back to find ancestors that fought and gave their lives for issues such as freedom and right of speech. How on earth did this produce people who are more than happy to be quiet or see others made to be quiet.

How long can appearance tie together the lack of substance. Logically sooner or later it all comes tumbling down, much like a social version of the current credit crisis. The fact that some people wish to keep mending and increasing the strings that tie it together is difficult for me to fathom.

Maybe they are people that have never liked hearing the truth and to them it is a type of security blanket.

[sriracha john]

Sondhi was sentanced to three years in jail and a 300,000 baht fine for LM crimes but it is seemingly o.k. because he is fighting the controlers fight. I have tried to find a news clipping that confirms this sentance has been overturned but have not been successful.

You probably didn't find an article confirming his sentence was overturned because he was never sentenced to 3 years for LM in the first place.

Thats strange then SJ ??? Why then , did the Bangkok Post run a story saying that the criminal court had sentanced Sondhi to 3 years. It wasn't April fools day ??

http://www.bangkokpost.com/election2007/26..._261207_04.html

And please mods, don't delete this.

Do you understand that he was not charged with LM as you said he was and I said he wasn't and that which is shown by your article link?

The mods might consider closing this thread as it's a duplicate thread of the original thread discussing this topic and it was closed.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Thailand-Bui...-o-t219811.html

This thread also duplicates the the topic discussed in another closed thread:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Aussie-Refus...74.html&hl=

that's why this earned the moniker....

The Duplicate and Closed Thread thread...

If you don't want to participate in a certain discussion. Then it is really quite easy; you just ignore the topic.

Why the need to stamp on other peoples' points of view.

Lots of threads are duplicated in some one way or another, why the need to seek censorship for others?

I'm not "seeking censorship"... I am seeking the elimination of duplication and compliance with how the forum has chosen to do things.

The mods themselves have posted, while closing a duplicate thread, to request people not to start them... and to check news clippings forum or other related forums first before posting news-related topics, etc. but that requires members' cooperation with conforming themselves to their guidelines, which is becoming a quite evident problem on the forum.

There's a plethora of good, legitimate reasons why they've chosen this way to run things and I happen to agree with it.

Nobody is "stamping out other people's points of view"... they just don't want it spread across several same, same threads. It's not rocket science or agendas or other imagined conspiracies.

Edited December 10, 2008 by sriracha john

[bonobo]

I am against any cencsor....but the next is people coming with some child abuse pages....have to agree that this must not be allowed, than some nazis promote killing jews....OK that must not be allowed......and at the end you are trapped to agree with cencsorship....

Herein lies the crux of the matter. Most Westerners advocate "free speech" and decry censorship. But yes, aren't child porngraphy, racial hate websites, websites which explain how to construct biological weapons, terrorist websites which give instructions to terrorist cells for an upcoming attack. etc., all really examples of free speech? By shutting down these websites, aren't we really closing off free speech?

I don't think many people have any problem with governments closing down extreme websites like these, and most people do not think free speech extends to protecting this type of material. But where is the line over which free speech is violated? Or more accurately, over which line is it no longer Ok to violate free speech?

This is a tough question, and different cultures and groups will have differing opinions as to what is and what isn't protected by the concept of free speech.

Edited December 10, 2008 by bonobo

[Bangyai]

I'm not "seeking censorship"... I am seeking the elimination of duplication and compliance with how the forum has chosen to do things.

The mods themselves have posted, while closing a duplicate thread, to request people not to start them... and to check news clippings forum or other related forums first before posting news-related topics, etc. but that requires members' cooperation with conforming themselves to their guidelines, which is becoming a quite evident problem on the forum.

There's a plethora of good, legitimate reasons why they've chosen this way to run things and I happen to agree with it.

Nobody is "stamping out other people's points of view"... they just don't want it spread across several same, same threads. It's not rocket science or agendas or other imagined conspiracies.

Well, I take note on why your thread was stopped and heed the mods warning. As to thread duplication I agree there are valid reasons why it is frowned on. But if there is to be one thread on a subject it would be nice if the title of the thread were impartial.I started a topic entitled ' DAAD to meet at Rajamangala Stadium ' which I think you'll agree is an unbiased title. It was closed in favour of ' Thaksin Begs Forgiveness '....not so even handed .

You seem a bit upset at the continued presence of this topic. I find this strange as your topic was indeed similar in content which leads me to assume that you find it worthy of discussion . So you should be pleased that you can still discuss it here.?

I participated in your thread as I found it interesting. If I were to find fault in it it would be that it seemed to be trying to give the impression that it was only the Somchai govournment that was in favour of internet legistlation which clearly is not the case.

When the PPP came to power the army already had its own secret Task Force monitering internet traffic and was willing to prosecute anyone it thought infringed on the law.

IMO , as bad is things are ,there is a lot more freedom of speech now then say 20 - 30 years ago . Legistlation against the open discussion of topics that everyone has an interest in , Thai and Falang , would be a step backward for Thailand, whoever proposes it.

[Bangyai]

There's a plethora of good, legitimate reasons why they've chosen this way to run things and I happen to agree with it.

BTW, I like this word. Last time I heard it was here :

[TAWP]

I am against any cencsor....but the next is people coming with some child abuse pages....have to agree that this must not be allowed, than some nazis promote killing jews....OK that must not be allowed......and at the end you are trapped to agree with cencsorship....

Herein lies the crux of the matter. Most Westerners advocate "free speech" and decry censorship. But yes, aren't child porngraphy, racial hate websites, websites which explain how to construct biological weapons, terrorist websites which give instructions to terrorist cells for an upcoming attack. etc., all really examples of free speech? By shutting down these websites, aren't we really closing off free speech?

I don't think many people have any problem with governments closing down extreme websites like these, and most people do not think free speech extends to protecting this type of material. But where is the line over which free speech is violated? Or more accurately, over which line is it no longer Ok to violate free speech?

This is a tough question, and different cultures and groups will have differing opinions as to what is and what isn't protected by the concept of free speech.

No, it's very clear and one cannot have different concept of what free speech is. One can have different ideas what level of censorship that is 'alright'.

And most people accept too much since they think it doesn't affect them.

And CP has been used in Europe to implement draconian censorship rules. That alone tells you that you can never give the government a finger - they will take your whole hand.

Well, you can give them the finger...