Is Thailand Really Ready For Democracy?

[HamSabai]

In my opinion, in a country like Thailand, where relations between peoples are all based on their social rank in the society, it is simply impossible and pure utopia to believe that a legit democratic system could work.

It seems widely accepted here, that depending on where you stand on the pyramid of social status, that was given to you when you was born, you are "inferior" or "superior" to other peoples. And thus, stand "under" or "over" theses peoples.

So in that case, how can rich peoples from Bangkok , understand and accept the fact that their voice in an election as the exact same weight than the one from poorer peoples with darker skin from Isaan for example.

What do you guys think about that?

[Tyree D.]

sounds just like America. Thailand IS a democracy on record and the examples you mentioned.

[NaiGreg]

Almost.

[Moonrakers]

I think that the current news events answers the OP's question.

[HamSabai]

sounds just like America. Thailand IS a democracy on record and the examples you mentioned.

Great!!! Maybe you could develop a little, because people on the forum are not in your head and probably didn't understood what you meant.

[HamSabai]

Almost.

Another great piece of argumentation... I fully agree with you

[Tyree D.]

sounds just like America. Thailand IS a democracy on record and the examples you mentioned.

Great!!! Maybe you could develop a little, because people on the forum are not in your head and probably didn't understood what you meant.

rich vs. poor...inferior vs. superior...skin differences...everything you mentioned. This is the same in America. Thailand the past 17 years has been as much of a democracy as the USA has ever been. The only difference is the gov't controls the military in the US. That's why you've never seen in America what happened in LOS in 2006 or Burma/Myanmar 1988 on (military kicking out democratically elected government).

Edited November 26, 2008 by Tyree D.

[eleison]

sounds just like America. Thailand IS a democracy on record and the examples you mentioned.

Great!!! Maybe you could develop a little, because people on the forum are not in your head and probably didn't understood what you meant.

rich vs. poor...inferior vs. superior...skin differences...everything you mentioned. This is the same in America. Thailand the past 17 years has been as much of a democracy as the USA has ever been. The only difference is the gov't controls the military in the US. That's why you've never seen in America what happened in LOS in 2006 or Burma/Myanmar 1988 on (military kicking out democratically elected government).

Wrong.. Take for example, Obama. Even though I did not vote for him and do not support him, Obama is now going to be president of the USA. He's pretty dark skinned. However, I would never go against the will of the "people" by protesting an election just because my "side" lost...

Thailand is not ready for democracy. Violence should not be allowed to "nullify" elections.

[jdinasia]

I thought I remembered the OP saying he was through with Thailand some posts ago .....

When I first moved here a close friend of mine (from an influential/rich Sino-Thai family) said to me that Thailand was not ready for US style democracy, and I was offended by the idea! He had just returned from getting a PhD in applied mathematics in the USA. Not too many years after that Thaksin got elected for the second time! He was the first PM to finish out a term and he was elected to a second term and I KNEW my friend was correct. Thaksin had already torn down most of the checks and balances that a democracy needs to exist and flourish. He was suing anybody that dared speak out against him and wiping out the power of the courts and the NCCC etc. When his party TRT had gotten such an overwhelming command over parliament that they could not be censured he went hog wild and changed laws etc just to make his already large fortune into a really impressive amount of money! He managed to arrange his "war on drugs" complete with as many deaths as you would expect in a REAL war!

When his party was found guilty of rigging elections and disbanded I held out hope that a real democracy could develop. It didn't, instead he funded a proxy party that the EC has since found guilty of election rigging again! When he was convicted of abuse of power I thought ! Hey! Finally! he'll have to get out of politics and will even serve a couple of years in jail! When he slammed the UK for canceling his visa he put the final nail in the coffin of a real democratic movement in Thailand for some time to come! he showed in that speech that he did not understand democracy even though he had held the highest democratic office in Thailand!

[NanLaew]

Any nation that openly embraces feudalism and patronage cannot realistically engage democracy in the same breath.

[dumball]

Maybe everybody should just go back to their Moo-ban and start all over , including an attitude towards foreigners , that used to be an endearing factor of why expats came here . My thoughts any way .

[kiakaha]

In my opinion, in a country like Thailand, where relations between peoples are all based on their social rank in the society, it is simply impossible and pure utopia to believe that a legit democratic system could work.

It seems widely accepted here, that depending on where you stand on the pyramid of social status, that was given to you when you was born, you are "inferior" or "superior" to other peoples. And thus, stand "under" or "over" theses peoples.

So in that case, how can rich peoples from Bangkok , understand and accept the fact that their voice in an election as the exact same weight than the one from poorer peoples with darker skin from Isaan for example.

What do you guys think about that?

Thailand is suited to an absolute benevolent monarchy. The current structure and dynamic of society is a relic of this system. Trying to retro-fit a democratic system into a non-egalitarian society is, as history has proven, an exercise in futility.

Edited November 26, 2008 by kiakaha

[Lizard]

In my opinion, in a country like Thailand, where relations between peoples are all based on their social rank in the society, it is simply impossible and pure utopia to believe that a legit democratic system could work.

It seems widely accepted here, that depending on where you stand on the pyramid of social status, that was given to you when you was born, you are "inferior" or "superior" to other peoples. And thus, stand "under" or "over" theses peoples.

So in that case, how can rich peoples from Bangkok , understand and accept the fact that their voice in an election as the exact same weight than the one from poorer peoples with darker skin from Isaan for example.

What do you guys think about that?

I surely hope so, but the way this situation is heading, I

[Dakhar]

this country is going to be so poor if it keeps heading down this road any form of leadership will be welcomed.

[Carib]

sounds just like America. Thailand IS a democracy on record and the examples you mentioned.

Great!!! Maybe you could develop a little, because people on the forum are not in your head and probably didn't understood what you meant.

rich vs. poor...inferior vs. superior...skin differences...everything you mentioned. This is the same in America. Thailand the past 17 years has been as much of a democracy as the USA has ever been. The only difference is the gov't controls the military in the US. That's why you've never seen in America what happened in LOS in 2006 or Burma/Myanmar 1988 on (military kicking out democratically elected government).

Wrong.. Take for example, Obama. Even though I did not vote for him and do not support him, Obama is now going to be president of the USA. He's pretty dark skinned. However, I would never go against the will of the "people" by protesting an election just because my "side" lost...

Thailand is not ready for democracy. Violence should not be allowed to "nullify" elections.

Hmm, I can remember the national guard been called to the scene, to keep the democratic thinking citizens apart during the last elections in the US .

And people do have short memories, look at all the clowns which have been elected and the scandals they caused. Even impeachment procedures have been a part of history, but that is all OK because it is " western democracy".

And don't say that it was all some time ago.. because the last bozo lied through his teeth about just almost everything, and guess what, he is still in the seat. So much for democracy western style. Don't want to elaborate any further, but please don't say that western democracy is better. Because it is not.

The same mistakes Thailand makes, are made by the ooooh sooo valued democracies of some great nations too, and are still made every day.

Yes it is true that what happens now like in Thailand would have been stopped, but that is because some western democracies have become police states. People don't even notice anymore, they are used to it .

Even after a hurricane the first things you see are armed national guards in the streets coming to "help" . It says something about the the democratic atmosphere...

Don't make things look better than they really are. The west is not really all that much civilised, we just advertise better.

[dumball]

Carib , it would take more than your latest splurge to convince me that western democracies are any where near similar to that attempted by Thailand , and what is all this police state nonsense about ?

[Dakhar]

Carib,

What every your are smoking, you really should stop.

[Digitalman]

This is a great question, and as much as I love Thailand, there are too many issues within this society to realistically expect such a system to work, or really even be understood by the people. Someone made a point about the open acceptance of feudalism and patronage in this society, and along with this issue there are many more that must be looked at as the symptoms of a sick society. This society lacks a broad understanding of, and a subsequent love for, Justice and Virtue. Granted there are redeeming values within this culture that help to maintain ultimate order but sooner or later, something is going to give.

I cannot predict the future for Thailand, but I can tell that this society is not progressing towards Justice; I mean the classical conception of Justice, Justice that goes beyond law and order straight to the heart of individual people.

I feel that once one of the last remaining unifying forces in Thailand passes away this country will have an identity crisis on its hands.. I just wish that said person could be nobel and do what is right for this country but then again I don't believe in those establishments...

Hey if all else fails sabai sabai right? Good god... Consistency, reason and logic, Justice and Virtue, to what else is government aimed?

[Tyree D.]

sounds just like America. Thailand IS a democracy on record and the examples you mentioned.

Great!!! Maybe you could develop a little, because people on the forum are not in your head and probably didn't understood what you meant.

rich vs. poor...inferior vs. superior...skin differences...everything you mentioned. This is the same in America. Thailand the past 17 years has been as much of a democracy as the USA has ever been. The only difference is the gov't controls the military in the US. That's why you've never seen in America what happened in LOS in 2006 or Burma/Myanmar 1988 on (military kicking out democratically elected government).

Wrong.. Take for example, Obama. Even though I did not vote for him and do not support him, Obama is now going to be president of the USA. He's pretty dark skinned. However, I would never go against the will of the "people" by protesting an election just because my "side" lost...

Thailand is not ready for democracy. Violence should not be allowed to "nullify" elections.

Hmm, I can remember the national guard been called to the scene, to keep the democratic thinking citizens apart during the last elections in the US .

And people do have short memories, look at all the clowns which have been elected and the scandals they caused. Even impeachment procedures have been a part of history, but that is all OK because it is " western democracy".

And don't say that it was all some time ago.. because the last bozo lied through his teeth about just almost everything, and guess what, he is still in the seat. So much for democracy western style. Don't want to elaborate any further, but please don't say that western democracy is better. Because it is not.

The same mistakes Thailand makes, are made by the ooooh sooo valued democracies of some great nations too, and are still made every day.

Yes it is true that what happens now like in Thailand would have been stopped, but that is because some western democracies have become police states. People don't even notice anymore, they are used to it .

Even after a hurricane the first things you see are armed national guards in the streets coming to "help" . It says something about the the democratic atmosphere...

Don't make things look better than they really are. The west is not really all that much civilised, we just advertise better.

This poster gave a better explaination than mine. Plus to the earlier guy, why did you have to bring up Obama and explain how you do not support him? This is self-contradictory. So you are saying just because America elected a "dark looking guy"(in your own words), that is an example that America is a true democracy that does not have a light vs. dark issue like Thailand? Maybe America is also a true democracy because the guy elected before him was the "village idiot" (supposedly Nostradamus' words )

Plus, how can any of you say Thailand is not ready for democracy? Because the majority are poor farmers that got paid 100 baht to vote a certain way then the military kicked the guy out? Democracy will work anywhere if done right and not if a constitution is redrafted twice a decade.

Edited November 27, 2008 by Tyree D.

[Geekfreaklover]

I think the question should not be "is Thailand ready for democracy?" ... But how well she is suited to Democracy. Todays events and recent past history would suggest - Not very well.

But the country must perserve with democracy. Any alternative is a step backwards.

Thailand is a democratic state and has a "freeish" press. The cabinet is elected by the Thai people. The problem I think, is one, mainly of class difference and education. A poorly educated person would rather have 500 BT today then 1000 BT next year.

The PPP have representatives in every province and in the north east, every village. If a local couple are getting married, a PPP representative will donate money. I have spoken to Many Issaners who claim that before Thaksin they were poor, now their life is different. They have the 30 BT medical scheme, new hospitals, new schools, 1M BT funding per rural village. They can borrow from land to expand business. Before Thakins they had none of this. If you explain to them that Thaksin was taking money from the country for himself their response would be - "How does that affect me?" - They do not seem to understand the big picture, which comes down to the poor education system in rural districts.

The PAD understand the system is currupt. But they are the minority. In democratic society the majority should win.

Thailand needs to perserve with democracy and improve rural education.

Not easily done!

[ham]

In my opinion, in a country like Thailand, where relations between peoples are all based on their social rank in the society, it is simply impossible and pure utopia to believe that a legit democratic system could work.

It seems widely accepted here, that depending on where you stand on the pyramid of social status, that was given to you when you was born, you are "inferior" or "superior" to other peoples. And thus, stand "under" or "over" theses peoples.

So in that case, how can rich peoples from Bangkok , understand and accept the fact that their voice in an election as the exact same weight than the one from poorer peoples with darker skin from Isaan for example.

What do you guys think about that?

Of coarse the Thais are ready for democracy! Why not? They do (practice) it since many years somehow. And they did a big progress in the lat 10-20 years. Therefore we see those pictures in TV and in the Press, about the struggle between PPP and PAD. PPP (red) is unlucky because they can not escape the Thaskin Clan and cut off with those guys. And PAD is very dangerous indeed, because behind that yellow color which should make us believe they are "Royals" and the red ones not, are in fact on the way to try to establish a monarchist, military dictatorship with the idea that uneducated people should NOT vote!! Read their statements! Educate yourself! Watch that picture that went around the world, with that criminal who is shooting in the mass with somebody holding a picture of the King. Do you really think this guy will get punished for that? Of coarse we can't read about this here in LOS. But the truth is very scaring, if you have the understanding what’s really going on here. The old elite scares about the new and intellectual middle class elite who knows about real democracy. PAD is finally, if you see inside them as an organization, a far right wing movement and absolutely dangerous for Thailand and YOUR Business! They are "the wolf in the sheep’s clothing". The old structure is the real enemy of the democracy! Why you think nobody takes measurements at those airports!!!!

The entire power and money guy's scaring to loose their "money-pots" which Thaksin with the PPP statred to distribute as far as to the poor people with some very progressive ideas. He just thought he had to fill his pocket too, which was his mistake and what he pay’s for right now. This is democracy! I guess if the red ones find a way out of the Thaksin Clan they could be really successful in Thailand.

[eleison]

sounds just like America. Thailand IS a democracy on record and the examples you mentioned.

Great!!! Maybe you could develop a little, because people on the forum are not in your head and probably didn't understood what you meant.

rich vs. poor...inferior vs. superior...skin differences...everything you mentioned. This is the same in America. Thailand the past 17 years has been as much of a democracy as the USA has ever been. The only difference is the gov't controls the military in the US. That's why you've never seen in America what happened in LOS in 2006 or Burma/Myanmar 1988 on (military kicking out democratically elected government).

Wrong.. Take for example, Obama. Even though I did not vote for him and do not support him, Obama is now going to be president of the USA. He's pretty dark skinned. However, I would never go against the will of the "people" by protesting an election just because my "side" lost...

Thailand is not ready for democracy. Violence should not be allowed to "nullify" elections.

Hmm, I can remember the national guard been called to the scene, to keep the democratic thinking citizens apart during the last elections in the US .

And people do have short memories, look at all the clowns which have been elected and the scandals they caused. Even impeachment procedures have been a part of history, but that is all OK because it is " western democracy".

And don't say that it was all some time ago.. because the last bozo lied through his teeth about just almost everything, and guess what, he is still in the seat. So much for democracy western style. Don't want to elaborate any further, but please don't say that western democracy is better. Because it is not.

The same mistakes Thailand makes, are made by the ooooh sooo valued democracies of some great nations too, and are still made every day.

Yes it is true that what happens now like in Thailand would have been stopped, but that is because some western democracies have become police states. People don't even notice anymore, they are used to it .

Even after a hurricane the first things you see are armed national guards in the streets coming to "help" . It says something about the the democratic atmosphere...

Don't make things look better than they really are. The west is not really all that much civilised, we just advertise better.

This poster gave a better explanation than mine. Plus to the earlier guy, why did you have to bring up Obama and explain how you do not support him? This is self-contradictory. So you are saying just because America elected a "dark looking guy"(in your own words), that is an example that America is a true democracy that does not have a light vs. dark issue like Thailand? Maybe America is also a true democracy because the guy elected before him was the "village idiot" (supposedly Nostradamus' words )

Plus, how can any of you say Thailand is not ready for democracy? Because the majority are poor farmers that got paid 100 baht to vote a certain way then the military kicked the guy out? Democracy will work anywhere if done right and not if a constitution is redrafted twice a decade.

I bring up Obama because for many white Americans, he is the "devil". However, these same people will ultimately support him even thought they did not vote for him because he is the president elect. Take for instance when international leaders came to US soil and bad mouthed the "previous president" Bush. While some people in the United States hated Bush, they we were willing to support him by standing up and saying that as president of the United States, it is unbecoming of a foreign leader to come to the States on the invitation of American leaders only to ultimately make fun and ridicule Bush on US soil. www.voanews.com/english/archive/2006-09/2006-09-21-voa78.cfm

Now think about it. Who is considered the Devil by some portion of the Thai country? If he won an election and international election monitors found no real wrong doing that would affect the results, what would happen in thailand? What would happen in the US? This is the real point. In the "better" democracy people move on even if their "perfect" candidate lost -- lamenting and disrupting society because their "perfect" candidate lost is undemocratic. If a group of people didn't like the result, they wait until the next election. Maybe the next time, they will be able to sway their fellow citizens to their way of thinking.. to vote for their "perfect" candidate.

I'm not sure why someone brought up the US national guard. As far as I know they help people. I don't think there has ever been a shotting by national guard people during hurricanes.. nor has there been any national guard "coups'.. .. or any military coups in the history of the United States. Compared to other societies and compared to history, power transitions in the US have been relatively peaceful. But then in the US, Americans try to consider other Americans as equals.. but as mentioned by another poster, Thai's ..... not so much....

Edited November 27, 2008 by eleison

[wamberal]

I'm not sure why someone brought up the US national guard. As far as I know they help people. I don't think there has ever been a shotting by national guard people during hurricanes.. nor has there been any national guard "coups'.. .. or any military coups in the history of the United States. Compared to other societies and compared to history, power transitions in the US have been relatively peaceful. But then in the US, Americans try to consider other Americans as equals.. but as mentioned by another poster, Thai's ..... not so much....

What about the Kent State massacre, when unarmed student protestors were shot down in cold blood by the national guard?

As for Americans treating each other as equals, this is a very recent phenomenon, as a cursory study of American history will attest - particularly with respect to slavery, and segregation. Come to think of it, there were some pretty ugly outbursts against Obama and his "Arab" name, his associations with "terrorists", and the desirability of his being killed at a number of the McCain/Palin rallies.

[ham]

Carib,

What every your are smoking, you really should stop.

not correct because his staement is quite right, so he better say where he get his good dope froom

[Groongthep]

What about the Kent State massacre, when unarmed student protestors were shot down in cold blood by the national guard?

The Kent State shootings where 4 students were killed during a university campus demonstration was indeed a tragedy. Let's not forget though that immediately afterwards, the shootings where soundly condemned by the overwhelming majority of Americans, including many usually conservative ones. It was also 38 years ago. Since that time the National Guard has done nothing short of a magnificent job of providing aid during floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, blizzards, forest fires and all sorts of other natural and man made disaters. To condemn the entire National Guard system over one tragic mistake by one nutzo commander 38 years ago is grossly unfair.

Edited November 27, 2008 by Groongthep

[Tyree D.]

You made your point. I still stand by my second post where none of this current mess would have happened if the Thai PM was commander-in-cheif of the military.

But you can look at the current mess as a "removal from office". He did something impeacheable but he should've have have a congressional vote (which the majority of America was against when it happened to Clinton). Democracy does work in it's purist form, even if the vote is "wrong".

Speaking of which...FYI, I was in Thailand in 2005 during the reelection. Thaksin was the first PM ever reelected and the first to get a majority vote. I was living in Chiang Rai's bar district. They were all for him. I would reply, "But he made you close at one and made your girls claim they are 20". They had a blank faces but still supported him. He was also the only candidate I saw campaign. I didn't know anyone else running until the last week besides Mcachon. And there were about 125 candidates.

I left Thailand in April 2006 when Thaksin announced his resignation. I saw the tail beginning of protests. Apparantly he took to long to leave so there was a coup in September.

Edited November 29, 2008 by sbk

[wayfarer108]

Thaksin was not the first PM elected by majority vote. Every PM chosen by an elected government has taken office via majority vote of the dominant parties.

Edited November 29, 2008 by sbk

[wayfarer108]

Thailand already is a democracy, of a sort. All existing democratic systems are imperfect, it's only a matter of degree.

[wamberal]

What about the Kent State massacre, when unarmed student protestors were shot down in cold blood by the national guard?

The Kent State shootings where 4 students were killed during a university campus demonstration was indeed a tragedy. Let's not forget though that immediately afterwards, the shootings where soundly condemned by the overwhelming majority of Americans, including many usually conservative ones. It was also 38 years ago. Since that time the National Guard has done nothing short of a magnificent job of providing aid during floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, blizzards, forest fires and all sorts of other natural and man made disaters. To condemn the entire National Guard system over one tragic mistake by one nutzo commander 38 years ago is grossly unfair.

Facts are facts. 38 years is not a very long time, in the scheme of things. Lots of fairly recent American history - particularly the active disenfranchisement of black voters - speaks volumes for the health of democracy in the "Land of the Free". Not to mention the "hanging chads" affair only one Presidential election ago. Plus the almost routine use, or threat, or assassination in American civil life.

[Tyree D.]

Thaksin was not the first PM elected by majority vote. Every PM chosen by an elected government has taken office via majority vote of the dominant parties.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong with cited sources. Thailand has had PMs since the late 60s. 1992 was the first election where citizens could vote for them. Thaksin won with 49% in 2001 and in 2005 he was the first to be reelected and won with over 50% of the vote.

sources: Thai Society class in 1999; a 2005 Thaksin biography and the 2004-06 experience.

Edited November 29, 2008 by sbk