Proposed Solution To Problems

[torrenova]

Thanks for all the help guys over the few threads I've put up. If I have read it correctly, here's what I propose getting someone to do. Please check me where necessary and correct me if I falter.

Sod the original meter. It is 5/15 though the current house has 15/45.

I propose to get the electric people to change this to 15/45 unless I need more ? Any idea to cost. The missus has Bt4000 in her head from somewhere ????

Sod the original wiring, fuse box (breaker or whatever) and sockets.

I propose to get a decent box, higher quality wiring from the street and an grounding rod wired to this new box. From that box, run high quality wiring to everywhere necessary and install new 3 pin earthed sockets. Effectively ripping out everything that is currently in place except the lighting ring mains which I presume will be ok. They can be wired into this new box.

Re plaster and fix where necessary etc. etc.

Aircon

I am looking for one which will put heat out as well. If I cannot find one here in Thailand, could I just get one from somewhere else (just the outlet box) and have the local boys fix it up for the aircon ? I am presuming that the heating element is purely that, an electric heating element like grandma's old 3 bar fire ? Please advise and correct here.

Water heater

Have this installed so that it can provide hot water to 2 outlets, namely the shower head and through the wall to the kitchen sink (all within 1m runs). I would therefore need a heater which was high power (5/6kw or so due to very cold water).

I need advice on this, make etc. and whether there is a difference between heaters which can do this and ones that cannot turn on with water pressure.

Thanks again for all your help. Beers all round if you're near me or I'm near you. Feel free to criticise or advise, that's what I'm asking help for.

[Crossy]

Sod the original meter. It is 5/15 though the current house has 15/45.

I propose to get the electric people to change this to 15/45 unless I need more ? Any idea to cost. The missus has Bt4000 in her head from somewhere ???? Sounds like a plan, a 15/45 should do the trick, no idea of the cost. You may have to replace the wiring from the meter to your distribution box depending upon the current size.

Sod the original wiring, fuse box (breaker or whatever) and sockets.

I propose to get a decent box, higher quality wiring from the street and an grounding rod wired to this new box. From that box, run high quality wiring to everywhere necessary and install new 3 pin earthed sockets. Effectively ripping out everything that is currently in place except the lighting ring mains which I presume will be ok. They can be wired into this new box. Yes, although if your existing wiring is in good condition you can save some cash by running a single green earth wire from each outlet, assuming of course that you can get it into the conduit.

Aircon

I am looking for one which will put heat out as well. If I cannot find one here in Thailand, could I just get one from somewhere else (just the outlet box) and have the local boys fix it up for the aircon ? I am presuming that the heating element is purely that, an electric heating element like grandma's old 3 bar fire ? Please advise and correct here. Actually they are a bit cleverer than just a plain heater, in heat mode they pump heat from outside (aircon in reverse), they use less electricity than a heater of equivalent capacity, very green. You will however, need to buy the complete system rather than a just the indoor unit.

Water heater

Have this installed so that it can provide hot water to 2 outlets, namely the shower head and through the wall to the kitchen sink (all within 1m runs). I would therefore need a heater which was high power (5/6kw or so due to very cold water). I need advice on this, make etc. and whether there is a difference between heaters which can do this and ones that cannot turn on with water pressure. You really need a heater defined as 'multipoint', make a sketch of what you want to do and show it to the heater shop to ensure you get what you need.

Don't forget to install a Saf-T-Cut for additional protection. If you've not already looked there are diagrams here http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/Consumer.html

Edited December 3, 2008 by Crossy

[dotcom]

50 liter Hot Water heater "Ariston" About 4000 watt. Works well for Bangkok. Buy 70 liter if water supply is really cold. With this you can take a shower like back home (great volume with no restricton).

[dotcom]

Tell us if existing wiring is "on the wall" or "in the wall"

[torrenova]

Got some pictures coming in an hour or so. I'll post up.

[torrenova]

50 liter Hot Water heater "Ariston" About 4000 watt. Works well for Bangkok. Buy 70 liter if water supply is really cold. With this you can take a shower like back home (great volume with no restricton).

I put a Heatrae Sadia 300 litre in a flat in London a few years ago. 3 elements, needed some serious rewiring and it's own "box" but great for virtual unlimited hot water.

http://www.heatraesadia.com/hs/heatraes.nsf

I would consider the suggestion here but no space unfortunately. I would not do the same again as I did in London but I would put heaters at every outlet or room outlet to only heat the water which was used.

[dotcom]

Ok. "Instant" water heaters are available - from the same 2 manufacturers Ariston & Siebel Eltron - not hand showers but cold in hot out that have to be fed to a mixer. Home Pro stock them.

Still going to need a dedicated circuit & heavy duty wiring & breaker.

[dotcom]

This is one of America's leaders in instant hot water. heat only what you use (on-the-fly).

Rinnai

[torrenova]

OK, here are some pictures.

The meter is 5/15 so we'll need to change it. I don't know what the wire is to the house. There is some pole going into the ground at the concrete pole which holds up the electric cables and runs up to where the electric wires are, could that be a grounding ? If so, would it already run into the house ?

Some sockets have recessed wiring, others have wiring on the wall, just recessed at the socket.

I've pictures the bathroom and current cold shower. I want that to be hot water and also feed through the wall it is on to the kitchen on the other side of the wall. Can I put in a pull push mixer combined on off as most decent showers have and have the heater working on demand as water is turned on ?

Thanks again folks and please let me know if I've missed anything you need to know to advise further. Much appreciated.

[Crossy]

OK, here are some pictures.

The meter is 5/15 so we'll need to change it. I don't know what the wire is to the house. There is some pole going into the ground at the concrete pole which holds up the electric cables and runs up to where the electric wires are, could that be a grounding ? If so, would it already run into the house ?

Some sockets have recessed wiring, others have wiring on the wall, just recessed at the socket.

I've pictures the bathroom and current cold shower. I want that to be hot water and also feed through the wall it is on to the kitchen on the other side of the wall. Can I put in a pull push mixer combined on off as most decent showers have and have the heater working on demand as water is turned on ?

Thanks again folks and please let me know if I've missed anything you need to know to advise further. Much appreciated.

Great piccies

OK. The thing at the bottom of your electric pole is part of a MEN system, it is NOT, that's NOT to be used as your house ground, insert your own ground stake.

The outlets you picture are three pin, they 'should' already be grounded, the only way to tell is to open them up (power off please) and look at the wiring, if they have a black (live), white (neutral) and green (ground) wire you're already half way there. You also need to verify if there's already a ground in your distribution box, you'll need to take the lid off, power off but it can still bite, don't touch anything just take photos (easier than describing what you see). That little dizzy board has two spare spaces, one for your aircon and one for the water heater, good to go for now

You will need to upgrade the 'main switch' when you upgrade the meter, it would be wise to use one with a built-in ELCB (Saf-T-Cut), if you don't you should get your man to install a separate one.

If you use a multipoint heater you should be able to do exactly what you want with the shower

Edited December 4, 2008 by Crossy

[torrenova]

Cheers Crossy.

OK, I see the sockets are 3 pin, must have been daydreaming about our current house which is definitely 2 pin. Not sure I'm comfortable about taking the "little dizzy board" apart though !

So we stick an aircon in (still looking for one which can give out heat as well) and run some decent cable from it to the little box ? What cable ?

For the heater, we get it put in and run some cable that is powerful enough (how much for say 6 or 7kw ? again, to the box.

Now can this box handle all that ?

You've thrown me completely (well 90%) with your comment "You will need to upgrade the 'main switch' when you upgrade the meter, it would be wise to use one with a built-in ELCB (Saf-T-Cut), if you don't you should get your man to install a separate one."

I see a main switch sticker in the box and the flick on / off. Presumably this has some rating at which it "blows" and trips out. Are you saying to uprate that to some 5cm x 1cm thing which has this "ELCB (Saf-T-Cut)" in it or are we taking about something completely different ? I'm confused by your statement to get a separate one. Googled it but no pictures to help me out.

Lastly (for now !) I think someone said we'd have to upgrade the wiring from the mains to the box. Would that be done as standard when we get the electric people to change it to 15/45 ? If not, what do I need to make sure they put int, or I have put in ?

Thanks again all.

[dotcom]

Nope - the power company is merely gonna swap out the meter. The wiring downstream is up to you.

I would guess you need 10 to 12 mm wire from load center to hot water heater.

When Crossy talks about a "switch" bear in mind every switch & breaker has it's load rating clearly marked.

You will now need a MINIMUM of a 62 amp main switch. This is used to de-energize the load center. You will need a MINIMUM of a 60 amp Safety-Cut.

Plan on running 16 mm wire from meter to load center.

[Crossy]

So we stick an aircon in (still looking for one which can give out heat as well) and run some decent cable from it to the little box ? What cable ? Aircon should have 4mm² cable and a 25A breaker, this should handle pretty well anything you'll be installing.

For the heater, we get it put in and run some cable that is powerful enough (how much for say 6 or 7kw ? again, to the box. A 7kW heater will need 10mm² cable and a 40A breaker (6mm² with 32A would just do it but is right on the line at 7kW)

Now can this box handle all that ? The box is good for total load of 100A (it says on the label)

You've thrown me completely (well 90%) with your comment "You will need to upgrade the 'main switch' when you upgrade the meter, it would be wise to use one with a built-in ELCB (Saf-T-Cut), if you don't you should get your man to install a separate one." Sorry for the confusion, a popular device here is an external unit labeled as Saf-T-Cut, the box is mainly air and does no more than the units that fit in your distribution box (see next paragraph). A Saf-T-Cut / RCD / RCCB / ELCB / GFI are all actually the same device.

I see a main switch sticker in the box and the flick on / off. Presumably this has some rating at which it "blows" and trips out. Are you saying to uprate that to some 5cm x 1cm thing which has this "ELCB (Saf-T-Cut)" in it or are we taking about something completely different ? I'm confused by your statement to get a separate one. Googled it but no pictures to help me out. OK, you need to replace the breaker labeled 'main switch' with a 63A combined MCB / RCD, it looks something like this.

Lastly (for now !) I think someone said we'd have to upgrade the wiring from the mains to the box. Would that be done as standard when we get the electric people to change it to 15/45 ? If not, what do I need to make sure they put int, or I have put in ? With a 63A incoming breaker you need at least 16mm² cable. The existing cable will be marked, check what you have before doing anything new. As Dotcom notes the cable from the meter to the house is your problem, also MEA/PEA won't change the meter if you cable is too small for the load.

Edited December 5, 2008 by Crossy

[torrenova]

Am I right in thinking that this

is just a different 5cm x 1cm thing that replaces the main switch in the box ?

Edited December 5, 2008 by torrenova

[Crossy]

Am I right in thinking that this

is just a different 5cm x 1cm thing that replaces the main switch in the box ?

Yes

Take the current one out, put this in. Your electrician will ought to know what it is and how to install

It's actually double width (like the current one) not 5x1 cm.

[torrenova]

Your electrician will ought to know what it is and how to install

It's actually double width (like the current one) not 5x1 cm.

Right on the button there Crossy

If I thought the fools competent enough I would not have to ask the generosity and kindness of my fellow TV members !

You should have seen the clown who came to look at the floor this morning (village idiot my missus spoke to). Wanted to put paper on the concrete to level it out before laying the tiles ! Result: heated argument with missus over his loss of face when I told her we would not be employing him !

[torrenova]

Once again thanks for all your help but can someone just guide me through this one.

The multipoint heaters I have identified are the following:

Panasonic DH-6GM1T (2.5/3.5/6.0kw) http://panasonic.co.th/web/pid/2389

Panasonic DH-8BM1T (4.5/6.0/8.0kw) http://panasonic.co.th/web/Pid/4912

Panasonic DH-10BM1T (6.0/7.5/10.0kw) http://panasonic.co.th/web/Pid/2390

My gut feeling is just to go with the larger of the three but I would be grateful if one of you could run through the wiring and fuse / breaker requirements for each and have a look at the earlier details of my system to see whether it can cope with such a high load.

Also, I know the 5/15 meter has to go but could the 15/45 meter take the 10kw model or would we have to go up further again to what I believe is the 30/100. Also, anyone know the rough costs of changing a 5/15 to a 15/45 or 30/100 ?

Then, where can I get an idea of how powerful an aircon I need for about a 12sqm room ? I've seen some but they talk about the USA generally. I don't know the size we need but I suspect you get a little bigger than you need just in case ? Then what wiring is needed for a system of XYZ power consumption ?

Finally, what wiring is needed gievn that a 10kw can be accommodated, to link to the outside supply ? I don't want to screw up at that final hurdle !

Thanks again.

[Crossy]

Panasonic DH-6GM1T (2.5/3.5/6.0kw) http://panasonic.co.th/web/pid/2389 6mm² cable 30A breaker

Panasonic DH-8BM1T (4.5/6.0/8.0kw) http://panasonic.co.th/web/Pid/4912 10mm² cable 40A breaker

Panasonic DH-10BM1T (6.0/7.5/10.0kw) http://panasonic.co.th/web/Pid/2390 16mm² cable 50A breaker

Note that these sizes take account of some de-rating for the high ambient temperature in sunny Thailand.

My gut feeling is just to go with the larger of the three but I would be grateful if one of you could run through the wiring and fuse / breaker requirements for each and have a look at the earlier details of my system to see whether it can cope with such a high load. Personally I'd go with the 8kW unit unless you like scalding Niagra Falls type showers that is

Also, I know the 5/15 meter has to go but could the 15/45 meter take the 10kw model or would we have to go up further again to what I believe is the 30/100. Also, anyone know the rough costs of changing a 5/15 to a 15/45 or 30/100 ? For anything over 8kW I would really be looking at the 30/100 meter, the 15/45 will be right on the line at 10kW although water heaters are not a constant load so there should be no real issues.

Then, where can I get an idea of how powerful an aircon I need for about a 12sqm room ? I've seen some but they talk about the USA generally. I don't know the size we need but I suspect you get a little bigger than you need just in case ? Then what wiring is needed for a system of XYZ power consumption ? Quick-and-dirty aircon sizing chart here http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Air-Consitio...rt-t185082.html for your 12m² room it would suggest a 9000BTU unit, wire it with 4mm² cable and a 20A breaker (2.5mm² would actually be OK but again we should future-proof the installation)

Finally, what wiring is needed given that a 10kw can be accommodated, to link to the outside supply ? I don't want to screw up at that final hurdle ! A 15/45 meter will be fused at 63A and will need at least 16mm² meter tails, for the 30/100 you'll have to pull 25mm² tails (may be wise to pull 25mm² anyway in case you want to upgrade later).

Thanks again.

Edited December 17, 2008 by Crossy

[longball53098]

I don't remember where I read this but a general rule of thumb for sizing an aircon is to use the number 750 multiply your room size in square meters by it.

So in the case of your 12sqm room times 750 equals 9000 btu unit

[torrenova]

Again thanks to all who have helped.

However, there is a stand off with the electrician over the breaker for the 10kw shower. Told the silly git I wanted 16mm wire (he wanted to put in 2*6mm - <deleted> ?) but now he is trying t convince the missus that a 50A breaker for the 10kw shower will have us dead !

I trust you guys and have gone with the excellent stuff Crossy has advised but I don't have the reasons why a 50A ?

I'm googling now but if anyone picks this up and can assist, please do.

Cheers again.

[torrenova]

Answering my own post, google brought back physics 101 and a triangle with volts / amps / watts. Thus, at maximum load, a 10,000w heater at 240v will draw 41.67 amps. At 220v, slightly higher at 45.45 amps.

However, the guys, who has no mathematical idea, says 30A is ok or there is no guarantee. The missus trusts me but has the disadvantage of too often believing Somchais !

When put to the test, he cannot find anything in the documentation (when I asked him) to say use 30A.

TIT

[Crossy]

However, there is a stand off with the electrician over the breaker for the 10kw shower. Told the silly git I wanted 16mm wire (he wanted to put in 2*6mm - <deleted> ?) but now he is trying t convince the missus that a 50A breaker for the 10kw shower will have us dead !

Hmmm 10kW at 220V is 45A or thereabouts so a 50A breaker is the correct one, 16mm cable is also correct (10mm is good for 40A so may have just be ok as you'd rarely run the heater at full power for any length of time).

What breaker does he want to fit? What breaker is recommended in the instructions for the heater (good way to convince your man).

Simple sums:-

Volts x Amps = Watts (for a resistive load like a water heater).

=>

Watts / Volts = Amps

=>

10,000 / 220 = 45.454545454545454545454545454545

6mm is good for 32A and @ 45A would have certainly have got pretty warm.

Let him fit the breaker he wants to and run the heater at full power for a few minutes, if it drops out ask him why

EDIT Just saw your post, a 30A breaker will likely drop when loaded at 45A, let him install it then test.

Edited January 25, 2009 by Crossy

[Crossy]

Looking at the trip characteristics of a regular 30A MCB. A 50% overload will likely lead to a trip within 30 minutes so you may find that it works just fine as the heater is an intermittent load.

[dotcom]

Crossy. Considering what he has told us regarding water heater - is 16 mm wire from street pole to load center sufficient? He's already pushing his power meter pretty hard with this one appliance.

I have a full 100 amp system with 35mm2 mains.

Torrenova may want to consider that too.

2) The only heater/air con units I have seen are window mount units. (not split units) although a heat pump system would have it too.

Edited January 25, 2009 by dotcom

[Crossy]

Dotty.

Yes he is pushing his supply pretty hard but a 15/45 is the largest generally available (30/100 is only available in certain areas). As i noted in Post #18

For anything over 8kW I would really be looking at the 30/100 meter, the 15/45 will be right on the line at 10kW although water heaters are not a constant load so there should be no real issues.

The 15/45 should be fused at 63A, 16mm² is good for 80A or so in a single core open field situation (meter tails), even when de-rated for a 40C ambient it would still be OK particularly considering the heater will be an intermittent load. Personally I'd use 25mm² to future proof the system (normal practice in the UK).

I have definately seen split unit heat/cool units (not in Thailand) so they do exist.

Edited January 25, 2009 by Crossy

[loong]

Water heater

Have this installed so that it can provide hot water to 2 outlets, namely the shower head and through the wall to the kitchen sink (all within 1m runs). I would therefore need a heater which was high power (5/6kw or so due to very cold water). I need advice on this, make etc. and whether there is a difference between heaters which can do this and ones that cannot turn on with water pressure. You really need a heater defined as 'multipoint', make a sketch of what you want to do and show it to the heater shop to ensure you get what you need.

I'm not sure if the Panasonic you have linked to is suitable for 2 outlets as it stands.

An instant water heater has the stopvalve on the inlet side, not the outlet. Residual heat in the unit will continue to expand the water after you close the valve. This is why you sometimes see the outlet dripping after you switch off. If you have the stopvalve on the outlet side of the unit you will require either long pipe runs or an expansion vessel

[Crossy]

I'm not sure if the Panasonic you have linked to is suitable for 2 outlets as it stands.

An instant water heater has the stopvalve on the inlet side, not the outlet. Residual heat in the unit will continue to expand the water after you close the valve. This is why you sometimes see the outlet dripping after you switch off. If you have the stopvalve on the outlet side of the unit you will require either long pipe runs or an expansion vessel

It's definately described as a multipoint so will be no problem with multiple outlets, we must assume it has the necessary expansion gubbins built in

You are correct the heaters with a stop on the inlet are suitable only for a single outlet / shower.

[dotcom]

An instant water heater has the stopvalve on the inlet side, not the outlet. Residual heat in the unit will continue to expand the water after you close the valve. This is why you sometimes see the outlet dripping after you switch off. If you have the stopvalve on the outlet side of the unit you will require either long pipe runs or an expansion vessel

Or an over pressure relief valve such as comes standard with all Ariston hot water tanks. Goes on the inlet side.

Edited January 25, 2009 by dotcom

[loong]

An instant water heater has the stopvalve on the inlet side, not the outlet. Residual heat in the unit will continue to expand the water after you close the valve. This is why you sometimes see the outlet dripping after you switch off. If you have the stopvalve on the outlet side of the unit you will require either long pipe runs or an expansion vessel

Or an over pressure relief valve such as comes standard with all Ariston hot water tanks. Goes on the inlet side.

Thanks for the info............. I was talking about instant water heaters before, but in this case is an unvented water heater? and although I cannot fathom too much information from the photo that you show - it appears to be a sealed system (Unvented) water heater that incorporates a pressure relief valve. That's good so far.............BUT..........should the system over pressurise I see no way of discharging safely. If that "safety" valve operates, anyone in the vicinity could be scalded by super pressurised steam. The discharge should be carried away by additional pipeworkto where it can drain safely.

Edited January 25, 2009 by loong

[torrenova]

Cheers guys for wading in again on my behalf.

Plumber has made a hash of things as the wall wasn't chased out enough to allow the pipes to fit and then be plastered over. But, he's back tomorrow. Won't get any more cash but has to work twice. Stupid Thai (il)logic !

Sparky has put in the 16mm cabling from the heater unit (yes, it is multipoint) but has put no breaker or Saf-T-Cut. He could only find a 40A STC so gave up (again TIT). Didn't put in any breaker as he wants 30A and I need 50A. I'll have to source both tomorrow and get him to install.

Wiring from the mains is 10/12mm he says. Seems to understand why I want 25mm but I have to speak (read pay) the electric office who presumably will want their fatted calf to change the wiring or oversee him doing it. Whatever !

In the end, there is progress and perhaps light at the end of the tunnel. Perhaps. Hopefully ! Maybe

New beds arriving today instead of 27th so a good thing and bad thing at the same time. All I have to do is pay for a party and then bugger off and not attend as the MIL will not share the same airspace as me. And I her as well. Perhaps this will lighten that but I doubt and honestly don't care.

Now I have to source the parts in the boonies tomorrow ! Home Mart (only largish store) close today for Chinese New Year (thought I'd left Hong Kong ?).

Thanks again guys and I'll report back on the outcome. or not if the 50A fries me at the first attempt.

PS

It is grounded with it's own grounding rod so there is hope !