Pad Announcement 29/2008: Conditions For New Government

[younghusband]

deleted - MiG16

[permanent_disorder]

I read it, but I also read what member SAKEOPETE wrote,

I hope you do also, and are not that bias to see the truth in it.

so did you do the double check and looked what all those book uncles and human rights liberals have to say, or do you just fingerpoint at thaksin again as proPAD defense argument.

and now change the subject an talk business.

but okay one argument you kept- free speech "Thaksin doesn't like the criticism from the news papers..."

to answer the question 'what the thaksin critics of the past do now' is the recommended read Prachathai. a good example

Prachatai is an independent, non-profit, daily web newspaper established in June 2004 to provide reliable and relevant news and information to the Thai public during an era of serious curbs on the freedom and independence of Thai news media.

http://www.prachatai.com/english/aboutus.php

a good example what PAD activist said back thoses days is Chamlong. the stupid press conference with thaksin X-sign toy and so on, remember? Chamlong defended Thaksin.

Chamlong was teacher, mentor, advisor, friend for Thaksin. he formed the leader image of thaksin. the good leader on top as role model for every citizen, that what is so bizarre in western eyes. - a chamlong concept of teaching the mass. the war on drug, Tak Bai, Krue Se Mosque. Chamlong never said a bad word. Chamlong did exactly know what was going on.

Chamlong has not a vision of a free independent human being, pluralistic thinking society. no, he think he holds the only TRUTH and everybody have to follow that and needs to be guided by a leader, appointed by "good" people.

and now? free speech is not a stronghold of PAD. various accounts of intimidation of the press we have seen, threats and slander on the stage talk, threats and even violence by the PAD guards against reporters.

or just look at point one in their new demands a crackdown on websites, publication, media, radio stations.

and for talking business. guess why old business buddy Sondhi il Lim said: "Thaksin is no saint, please do not be mistaken, but he is the best prime minister our country has ever had.”

AIS, shin corp. sale, telecommunication sector. thats busisness have not much to do with human rights. but okay have a short look into that.

the PM was conflict of interest and just give the shares to his kids and the house maid, was not really convincing, right. no question. so they sold that crap, what else they should have done?

AIS was never a monopol, there was and are also other companies around doing that business. the big point of critic from Democrats was that the Thaksin government limit the foreign investment in the telecommunication sector. okay, the thaksin cabinet raised the level of foreign ownership allowed.

human rights, freedom of expression, lower corruption or at least the business is running - just look at the shit happen with the coup and junta government.

the monthly dath toll in the south raised 50%, human rights, what is that? censorship on all levels. thailand behind cambodia and indonesia. corruption level raised up. economic grow slowed down dramatically to the worst one in the region, back to a low like in the good old Dems's days. a loser on all points, supported by PAD and Dem's for the best of thailand.

anyway, i don't trust hypocrites like the Dem's and old thaksin buddies like Sondhi and uber moralistics funsuckers like Chamlong. not in human rights questions and not in business issues. it's just a bigger pile of shit. PAD critics, the people i mentioned above, are more convincing. when everybody was in love with the new superstar leader, they not. even The Economist pointed out the flaws and the wrongs of Thaksin. a future build by PAD demands is not promising but alarming.

[Plus]

"Coup for the rich" is written by a certified communist nutcase Giles. This "academic" book wasn't accepted even by his own university.

Just look at the ridiculous title - people who came to power after the coup were paupers comparing to Thaksin and Co., who, in turn, were the richest group of Thais ever in government.

If you were trying to get a grasp on US/UK or any other western country politics, would you rely on a writings by a leader of a fringe marxist party with less than thirty followers?

Absolute rubbish.

Plus, you are, perhaps, the individual making the loudest claims to be democratic while proving, day in day out with your comments, that the opposite is, in fact, the case.

The university (where I work), with land donated from RamaV, is an outragously rich (key land) institution, and is right up there amongst the Bangkok elite. As to your comment of "paupers comparing to Thaksin and Co"; more nonsense. Look at the big land owners, mostly military types and 'old monied families' around Dusit; PAD supporters, both visible and not so.

Of course no psychiatrist has ever certified Giles as a nutcase, that is granted.

And I would like to have a look at big land owners who came to power after the coup, why don't you tell us who they are? Surayud? Sonthi the general? And what exactly Thaksin did to those land holders to warrant the coup? Did their land depreciated during his reign? Did it appreciated after the coup? Did Chula board sponsored the coup, too, and so they couldn't accept Giles book for sale?

Back in those days any list of ten richest Thai families had TRT written all over it, and they all hold plenty of land, too. It was more like a coup AGAINST the rich, and, in fact, it was - a coup against the rich robbing the country. Only idiots like Giles think that the likes of Shinawatras and Damapongs went to politics to help out the poor, that, somehow, they developed some leftist ideology to empower the masses.

Somewhere today I read someone said that Thaksin treated the poor like equal people. Yeah, haven't you seen the pictures of them prostrating on the ground and begging him for mercy? This is exactly how he treated them - as his vassals begging for protection. They didn't elect Thaksin to be their servant, they elected him to be their master, and that's what Thai patronage democracy is all about - democratically choosing the kindest despot and handing him absolute power.

>>>

In the latest PAD campaign old Thaksin buddies like CP and Thai Bev were reportedly donating to the PAD, btw.

[jasreeve17]

[Q - start]

Plus: Of course no psychiatrist has ever certified Giles as a nutcase, that is granted.

And I would like to have a look at big land owners who came to power after the coup, why don't you tell us who they are? Surayud? Sonthi the general? And what exactly Thaksin did to those land holders to warrant the coup? Did their land depreciated during his reign? Did it appreciated after the coup? Did Chula board sponsored the coup, too, and so they couldn't accept Giles book for sale?

Back in those days any list of ten richest Thai families had TRT written all over it, and they all hold plenty of land, too. It was more like a coup AGAINST the rich, and, in fact, it was - a coup against the rich robbing the country. Only idiots like Giles think that the likes of Shinawatras and Damapongs went to politics to help out the poor, that, somehow, they developed some leftist ideology to empower the masses.

Somewhere today I read someone said that Thaksin treated the poor like equal people. Yeah, haven't you seen the pictures of them prostrating on the ground and begging him for mercy? This is exactly how he treated them - as his vassals begging for protection. They didn't elect Thaksin to be their servant, they elected him to be their master, and that's what Thai patronage democracy is all about - democratically choosing the kindest despot and handing him absolute power.

>>>

In the latest PAD campaign old Thaksin buddies like CP and Thai Bev were reportedly donating to the PAD, btw

[Q - stop]

Giles has never supporter Thaksin, and he certainly never suggested that he went into politics to help the poor.

You also know, I presume, that Chula did initially stock the book before being told not too, by who? Neither you nor I know, but the army generals that took power via the coup (and were calling the shots at that time, shots like blocking websites that questioned the coup, matial law; tanks blocking the streets and stopping demos from reaching Bkk - you know, the guys that you call the good guys (insanity...) would be a decent educated guess.

As an aside; your habit of subtly changing facts / quotes / ideas to serve your purpose is ridiculous, why don't you stick to the truth and debate your viewpoints reasonably?

Anyway, to directly answer some of your points; Thaksin went into politics, I presume (rightly or wrongly?) to get money. In the process of making money, for himself, as well as doing a lot of exceptionally bad things, he actually helped poor folk - oh my God, what a crazy concept! Seemingly it was a crazy concept to the established rich folk (landowners we mentioned) who:-

1) Didn't want Thaksin stealing all the money that they were very fond of stealing themselves.

2) Didn't want to 'wake-up' the poor folk because they were worried what might happen, where Thailand may head, that the poor might want a say in politics being the majority (what another ridiculous concept - the masses wanting a say? Oh my my we can't be having that)...

3) Had no interest at all in Thaksin's wrongs - they were very often complicit. (You know the joint Sondhi / Thaksin business deals - how corrupt can you get?)

These 'elites' found it hard to counteract this new force, so when some disgruntled Thaksinites (Sondhi is a good example) decided upon a personal, ego based, vendetta against Thaksin, these 'elites' were more than pleased to jump on the bandwagon, as were other disgruntled (many rightly so) groups; Southern action groups, human-rights groups, etc. (Many hate Thaksin, his ways, his corruption - me too).

I have never, nor have people I support, suggested that Thaksin was good at all, just that by some lucky byproduct the poor benefitted, and they did. Ask them, I have on multiple occasssions, they like him cause he gave them something - standard poor Thai answers are:-

'We know he is corrupt, they all are. But he made our lives better, no other government has ever done that." Why wouldn't you vote for somebody that helps the populous, especially when the alternatives are people that have never helped the populous.

I like one of your phrases; "that's what Thai patronage democracy is all about - democratically choosing the kindest despot and handing him absolute power." Some truth there, but it's now in the past tense because the masses never had visibility, evidence or a sense of involvement - now they do - genie out of the bottle.

I'm not suggesting a return to Thaksin's corruption, or of him to politics at all.

Or, the far worse alternative of the elites taking democracy back twenty or thirty years.

I'm for increased involvement of the masses, and equal rights for all. Corruption free politics. I did hope that Abhisit was the man, now I doubt it, but he still appears to be the least bad realistic alternative. Tomorrow, he will likely be given his chance.

People that support army coups and minority groups (backed by the army) ousting an elected government, i.e. you Plus, do not understand democracy, or just donn't believe that the Thai masses deserve it. Sad.

Edited December 14, 2008 by jasreeve17

[Ulysses G.]

I'm not suggestion a return to Thaksin's corruption.

Or, the far worse alternative of the elites taking democracy back twenty or thirty years.

I'm for increased involvement of the masses, and equal rights for all. Corruption free politics. I did hope that Abhisit was the man, now I doubt it, but he still appears to be the least bad realistic alternative. Tomorrow, he will likely be given his chance.

People that support army coups and minority groups (backed by the army) ousting an elected government, i.e. you Plus, do not understand democracy, or just donn't believe that the Thai masses deserve it. Sad.

Right on dude!

[Penquin]

An unelected group dictating to the entire country obviously lead by a meglomaniac. This group is starting to make Thaksin seem like a reasonable guy

I agreed what you said... PAD is a cult and group dictating, they can do whatever they wanted which supported by big people. Feel like a communist country run by PAD now.

[siam4ever]

I'm not suggestion a return to Thaksin's corruption.

Or, the far worse alternative of the elites taking democracy back twenty or thirty years.

I'm for increased involvement of the masses, and equal rights for all. Corruption free politics. I did hope that Abhisit was the man, now I doubt it, but he still appears to be the least bad realistic alternative. Tomorrow, he will likely be given his chance.

People that support army coups and minority groups (backed by the army) ousting an elected government, i.e. you Plus, do not understand democracy, or just donn't believe that the Thai masses deserve it. Sad.

Right on dude!

Well said!

[sriracha john]

Investigators say ex- PM Somchai may be linked to October 7 Parliament deaths

BANGKOK, Dec 14 (TNA) -- Investigators empaneled to probe the violence at the gates of Thailand's Parliament on October 7 may further probe into the role of former prime minister Somchai Wongsawat as he is now being suspected of being involved in the incident.

Vicha Mahakun, a member of the Office of the National Counter Corruption Commission (NCCC), said that further questions will be addressed to Somchai about the incident after two Senators last month petitioned the committee charging that they suspected the former prime minister of being behind the suppression of the anti-government protesters of the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) that day.

Mr. Vicha chairs the committee investigating the October 7 violence in which two PAD protesters were killed and nearly 500 persons injured when police fired teargas into the demonstrators at the gates of Parliament and at Metropolitan Police Bureau headquarters.

Admitting that the investigation was already long delayed, Mr. Vicha said several senior police officers suspected of being involved in reacting to and suppressing the protest refused to cooperate. Even Bangkok's chief of police had avoided being questioned, having asked for his interviews to be postponed.

In addition to the former prime minister and the Bangkok police chief, former national police chief Pol. Gen. Patcharawat Wongsuwan and deputy Bangkok police commander are also suspected to be involved in the suppression.

[Penquin]

I just love the constructive criticism you can muster up...

I just love how some people fail to see how anti-democratic, racist, violent, murderous and Nazi-like the PAD really are.

I'd compare them to sheep, but that would be putting them a little bit too high on the evolutionary scale.

[sriracha john]

NCCC: Ex-PM Somchai may be involved in Oct 7 violence

Former PM Somchai could be involved in the violent crackdown on October 7 which left two dead and over 400 injured, according to the investigation committee under the NCCC. Investigation committee chairman Vicha Mahakun said his panel will summon Somchai and question him further after Senator Somchai Sawaengkarn and Bangkok Senator Rosana Tositrakul filed a complaint, accusing the former PM of being involved in the deadly clash between the police and People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) demonstrators on October 7. Mr Vicha said the committee was gathering new information and interrogating more witnesses, but many high-ranking police officers refused to cooperate with the investigative units. Previously, Metropolitan Police commissioner Suchart Mueankaew asked the committee to postpone the interrogation. Other important witnesses included former national police chief Patcharawat Wongsuwan and

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=135391

[Plus]

Giles has never supporter Thaksin, and he certainly never suggested that he went into politics to help the poor.

I'm too lazy to go and search for his interviews, but he gave Thaksin a lot of credit for various things and I don't remember him saying anything negative about the man in the past few years.

You also know, I presume, that Chula did initially stock the book before being told not too, by who?

I don't think the book was ever on sale there. There was an initial agreement, before the book was even written. I don't remember the exact official wording but it seemed pretty convincing. There could have been calls, too, but Chula bookstore had listed valid reasons on its own.

As an aside; your habit of subtly changing facts / quotes / ideas to serve your purpose is ridiculous, why don't you stick to the truth and debate your viewpoints reasonably?

What are you talking about? That Giles never supported Thaksin and I twisted this fact around? Ok, he never said it, but he walks and talks like a duck. Even better example - Dr Weng, he was originally one of PAD leaders, now he is one of the main cheerleaders for the reds, and by now it's obvious that the whole purpose of the red movement is to bring Thaksin back as a PM. If Weng is still denying that he is a Thaksin supporter he is in deep self denial. He started his complete course reversal with campaigning against the coup, like Giles. Giles hasn't stooped as low as Weng and threw rocks and stones at the police and graced recent Thaksin's rallies with his illustrious presense, but his analysis certainly helps Thaksin on the ideological front. Thank you very much, Giles, without you it would be so difficult to sell "Thaksin, Saviour of the Poor" legend to the westerners.

Your next points:

1) Didn't want Thaksin stealing all the money that they were very fond of stealing themselves.

>>You need to show that the unnamed elite share had diminished in some way to prove even existence of this motive. The fact is that they were ALL in on it, and they never had it that good.

2) Didn't want to 'wake-up' the poor folk because they were worried what might happen, where Thailand may head, that the poor might want a say in politics being the majority...

>>>Under Thaksin the poor were completely and effectively excluded from political process, all power was fully centralised and was firmly in Thaksin's hands. It's Giles inspired illusion that the masses had somehow woken up and became politically demanding. With Thaksin in charge there was absolutely no way of poor making any noises about their plight. For the first time in history they let the rich to do absolutely whatever they wanted. The reds still go around chanting "Let them steal! Let them steal!". Some awakening.

3) Had no interest at all in Thaksin's wrongs - they were very often complicit. (You know the joint Sondhi / Thaksin business deals - how corrupt can you get?)

>>>To deny that popular opposition to Thaksin was not driven by his unprecedented corruption is absurd. Apart from Sondhi none of the protest leaders has any business interests or hidden agenda. Elites might have jumped on the bandwagon but they didn't create it. Sondhi's personal vendetta allegation also looks implausible in the face of his continued and unwavering commitment to the cause, without any slip ups, for more than three years now.

I like one of your phrases; "that's what Thai patronage democracy is all about - democratically choosing the kindest despot and handing him absolute power." Some truth there, but it's now in the past tense because the masses never had visibility, evidence or a sense of involvement - now they do - genie out of the bottle.

Which masses are you talking about? Yellows who have just made a long list of demands for whatever government comes next, or the reds that keep on carrying Thaksin portraits? Which group, in your view, is a genie that doesn't accept power of patronage and blind bowing to the bosses anymore? Which group are the ones that demand accountability from the government? Reds or yellows?

The genie will be truly out of the bottle on the day the reds realise that the democracy wrap for their pro-Thaksin agenda has a life and value on its own.

[Vato]

<br /><b>With the Royal Decree on Thursday December 11, 2008 for the launch of an extraordinary Parliamentary session to allow the House of Representatives to select the new prime minister on Monday December 15, 2008, the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) has the following statement to make.</b><br /> <br /> The PAD wants all politicians to realize that its 193-day rally is a great sacrifice of a large group of people, some with their lives. It has been successful in blocking an amendment to the Constitution, thus allowing the corruption cases against politicians and electoral fraud cases to be deliberated by the court, resulting in the current political change.<br /> <br /> The sacrifice of the people must not be for a proxy government of the Thaksin regime to be set up, and the PAD does not want to see a mere change in the political alliance to seek benefits for a particularly political group.<br /> <br /> The PAD wants to see a resolution to the problems of politics in the past, restoration of justice for the people, and a move ahead with the people to reform politics and install new politics that will not see a recurrence of past political crisis.<br /> <br /> The PAD would like to announce its stance for the selection of the new prime minister in the extraordinary Parliamentary session as follows:<br /> <br /> Firstly, the PAD opposes any proxy prime minister from the Pheu Thai Party and any prime minister from a political party that is part of a coalition involving the Pheu Thai Party, which is a newly-established proxy political party of the Thaksin regime.<br /> <br /> Secondly, the PAD condemns threats, intimidation, negotiations, and payment to politicians for them to join the Pheu Thai in being able to form government without care to the damages to the country and the public.<br /> <br /> Finally, the PAD will monitor the change in political alliance of the old-style politics and whether it will be able to break through the political crisis, deal with the Thaksin regime, and enter the era of new politics. The PAD, as representative of the public, issues 13 conditions for the new government.<br /> <br /> 1. Speed up the lese majeste cases against Jakrapob Penkair, Weera Musikapong, websites, publications, community radio stations, and crack down on the movement that endangers the Monarchy as a priority.<br /> <br /> 2. Announce its stance of not amending the 2007 Constitution or any other law that will whitewash the crimes of politicians, that will benefit politicians' own interests, that will lessen the authority of the Monarchy or disturb the foundation of the country's Constitutional Monarchy.<br /> <br /> 3. Support good and talented people into power; prevent evil people from taking power; managing the country with transparency; and stop unacceptable politicians or state officials, those with conflicts of interest, or those with corrupt tendency to take power.<br /> <br /> 4. Speed up corruption cases to enter the judicial process and prevent direct and indirect interference into the cases. Transfer state officials who have been serving the Thaksin regime out of power, such as the director-general of the Department of Special Investigation, the director-general of the Public Relations Department, the director of the Budget Bureau, the secretary-general of the Food and Drugs Administration, etc. Seize corrupt assets to become state assets once again.<br /> <br /> For the benefit of the country, the new government should announce its stance in speeding up the Kao Kradong State Railway Authority of Thailand land violation case and the violation of public land in Satuk district of Buri Ram province. It should also cancel the rental contract for illegitimate shops at the Suvarnabhumi Airport and cancel the shows and prosecute state officials and private companies involved in the non-transparent rental of buying of airtime on the Public Relation Department's Channel 11.<br /> <br /> 5. Cancel the passport of Pol. Lt. Col. Thaksin Shinawatra, a runaway convict of the country.<br /> <br /> 6. Speed up the extradition process of Pol. Lt. Col. Thaksin Shinawatra, a runaway convict, to return to serve his jail term in Thailand immediately.<br /> <br /> 7. Announce the cancellation of the Thai-Cambodian joint communiqué that gave away Preah Vihear Temple and its surrounding areas to Cambodia and protect Thai sovereignty over its land and natural gas and oil resources in the Gulf of Thailand.<br /> <br /> 8. Speed up the eradication of a police state and transfer police officers who accuse, trick, and intimidate PAD supporters to an inactive post. Prosecute police officers involved in the killing of the people on October 7, 2008 and those who accuse the public of being traitors and terrorists, particularly Pol. Gen. Chongrak Chutanont, Pol. Lt. Gen. Suchart Muenkaew, Pol. Maj. Gen. Amnuay Nimmano, Pol. Lt. Gen. Somyos Poompanmuang, Pol. Col. Luechai Sudyod, etc. Restore justice for the police officers who have been honest and brave in protecting the people's interest through promotions in their job.<br /> <br /> 9. Speed up the cases and prosecute those implicated by the National Human Rights Commission and the Senate committees for being involved in the killing of the people, such as Somchai Wongsawat, Gen. Chavalit Yongjaiyudh, and state officials. Prosecute thugs who side with the government in hurting and killing protesters to the fullest extent.<br /> <br /> 10. Stop using state media to issue propaganda and lie to the public for the Thaksin regime, particularly the 'Truth Today' program on NBT station and its hosts. Launch a media reform to allow the public access to complete information to benefit the country and the people.<br /> <br /> 11. Cancel large-scale and non-transparent projects that will lead to the demise of the country, such as the 4,000 NGV bus rental, the construction of the new Parliament, etc.<br /> <br /> 12. Cancel the 1999 State Enterprise Bill and replace it with a state enterprise development and restructuring plan for the utmost benefit of the people. Restore privatized state enterprises as state property, especially PTT.<br /> <br /> 13. Show the stance of supporting the public in building new politics with greater public participation in politics to ensure true democracy for politics, the economy, and the society accordingly to the way of the PAD and to prevent a future political crisis.<br /> <br /> The PAD calls on politicians who are forming the new government to consider the ideologies of the people and heroes who have sacrificed for the country more than negotiations to compete for benefits by different political groups. The new government should announce its stance and follow the above conditions so as not to disappoint the people and prevent them from losing faith in the current political system.<br /> <br /> If the conditions and ideologies of the PAD are denied or ignored, it is ready to stage activities according to the situation.<br /> <br /> With deepest respect,<br /> People's Alliance for Democracy<br /> December 12, 2008<br /><br /><a href="http://www.thailandoutlook.tv/toc/ViewData.aspx?DataID=1011141" target="_blank">Link</a><br />

<br /><br /><br />

i dont see anything on that list which is unacceptable.

[pammy123]

Who the hlel do the pad represent exactly? The criminal elite

[henryalleman]

[Q - start]

Plus: Of course no psychiatrist has ever certified Giles as a nutcase, that is granted.

And I would like to have a look at big land owners who came to power after the coup, why don't you tell us who they are? Surayud? Sonthi the general? And what exactly Thaksin did to those land holders to warrant the coup? Did their land depreciated during his reign? Did it appreciated after the coup? Did Chula board sponsored the coup, too, and so they couldn't accept Giles book for sale?

Back in those days any list of ten richest Thai families had TRT written all over it, and they all hold plenty of land, too. It was more like a coup AGAINST the rich, and, in fact, it was - a coup against the rich robbing the country. Only idiots like Giles think that the likes of Shinawatras and Damapongs went to politics to help out the poor, that, somehow, they developed some leftist ideology to empower the masses.

Somewhere today I read someone said that Thaksin treated the poor like equal people. Yeah, haven't you seen the pictures of them prostrating on the ground and begging him for mercy? This is exactly how he treated them - as his vassals begging for protection. They didn't elect Thaksin to be their servant, they elected him to be their master, and that's what Thai patronage democracy is all about - democratically choosing the kindest despot and handing him absolute power.

>>>

In the latest PAD campaign old Thaksin buddies like CP and Thai Bev were reportedly donating to the PAD, btw

[Q - stop]

Giles has never supporter Thaksin, and he certainly never suggested that he went into politics to help the poor.

You also know, I presume, that Chula did initially stock the book before being told not too, by who? Neither you nor I know, but the army generals that took power via the coup (and were calling the shots at that time, shots like blocking websites that questioned the coup, matial law; tanks blocking the streets and stopping demos from reaching Bkk - you know, the guys that you call the good guys (insanity...) would be a decent educated guess.

As an aside; your habit of subtly changing facts / quotes / ideas to serve your purpose is ridiculous, why don't you stick to the truth and debate your viewpoints reasonably?

Anyway, to directly answer some of your points; Thaksin went into politics, I presume (rightly or wrongly?) to get money. In the process of making money, for himself, as well as doing a lot of exceptionally bad things, he actually helped poor folk - oh my God, what a crazy concept! Seemingly it was a crazy concept to the established rich folk (landowners we mentioned) who:-

1) Didn't want Thaksin stealing all the money that they were very fond of stealing themselves.

2) Didn't want to 'wake-up' the poor folk because they were worried what might happen, where Thailand may head, that the poor might want a say in politics being the majority (what another ridiculous concept - the masses wanting a say? Oh my my we can't be having that)...

3) Had no interest at all in Thaksin's wrongs - they were very often complicit. (You know the joint Sondhi / Thaksin business deals - how corrupt can you get?)

These 'elites' found it hard to counteract this new force, so when some disgruntled Thaksinites (Sondhi is a good example) decided upon a personal, ego based, vendetta against Thaksin, these 'elites' were more than pleased to jump on the bandwagon, as were other disgruntled (many rightly so) groups; Southern action groups, human-rights groups, etc. (Many hate Thaksin, his ways, his corruption - me too).

I have never, nor have people I support, suggested that Thaksin was good at all, just that by some lucky byproduct the poor benefitted, and they did. Ask them, I have on multiple occasssions, they like him cause he gave them something - standard poor Thai answers are:-

'We know he is corrupt, they all are. But he made our lives better, no other government has ever done that." Why wouldn't you vote for somebody that helps the populous, especially when the alternatives are people that have never helped the populous.

I like one of your phrases; "that's what Thai patronage democracy is all about - democratically choosing the kindest despot and handing him absolute power." Some truth there, but it's now in the past tense because the masses never had visibility, evidence or a sense of involvement - now they do - genie out of the bottle.

I'm not suggesting a return to Thaksin's corruption, or of him to politics at all.

Or, the far worse alternative of the elites taking democracy back twenty or thirty years.

I'm for increased involvement of the masses, and equal rights for all. Corruption free politics. I did hope that Abhisit was the man, now I doubt it, but he still appears to be the least bad realistic alternative. Tomorrow, he will likely be given his chance.

People that support army coups and minority groups (backed by the army) ousting an elected government, i.e. you Plus, do not understand democracy, or just donn't believe that the Thai masses deserve it. Sad.

can I conclude that the biggest handicap to take the power out of the hands of the rich and powerful is the lack of an Social- or Christian democratic party European style with their social organizations who cover all the social midfield, in the Thai political arena?

Those parties and their social organizations made it possible that in my country a female production worker of foreign origin could be elected as MP. This woman didn't give up her job on the production line( she still works there part time) to keep in touch with her voters. Maybe the lack of such parties and their social midfield organizations is also the reason that women are almost absent in Thai politics, or is it because Thailand is an Male macho culture that keeps out women in politic.

If I'm correct, this is also what Giles conclude, and hes correct in my opinion.

I really like to know if I stand alone with this idea

[peecee]

After reading most your comments, I wonder who's fascists and whose not.

These demands, made by a group of protesters!!!, all point in the same direction: NO MORE CORRUPTION!

Well, tell me.. what's so fascist about that?

This country has been, and still is, controled by a goverment-mafia; an organisation that is structurally stealing from its people.

Thailand is not unique though, as Haliburton comes to mind! But the Thais, the PAD have the balls to close an international airport!

Corruption is a disease and needs to be fought, no matter what the price! If not, than democracy is just a nine-letter word without meaning!

Wake up!

PAD are unelected who want governers and MPs appointed, sounds very sinister to me and any other fair minded person I would think. Their leaders should be arrested for the occupation of the airports (by supporters who were paid) but the rule of law appears to go out the window once you don a yellow shirt!

[peecee]

all you guys are just still upset about that little airport closing

if you read the list of demands they are reasonable. they simply want a transparent and non-corrupt government. is it too much to ask?

As long as it agrees with us mien furer!

[peecee]

I hate to be melodramatic but if the army does not get involved soon there could be a real problem country wide. There are reports filtering through that the red shirts have been to Udon Airport threatening unrest.

A coup is looking better every day

In any democracy the army is controlled by the government. Sorry, I should have said in any normal democracy!

The old guard just want it all their own way and stuff democracy!! This is a centuries old problem when rich landowners find out that in a democratic system they only have one vote!!!

Edited December 14, 2008 by peecee

[samgrowth]

If they want to run the government they should create a Politacal Party and run for elections as prescribed in the Thai Constitution.

Most Thais are sick of this lawlessness and PAD would be lucky to even get their own demonstrators to vote for them.

How many times must I say this. PAD is not a political party. PAD cannot buy votes.

[samgrowth]

Anyone see the program on TV just now about the Cultural Revolution in China. A case of deja vu when you see PAD. I think the only difference was that the peasants were reeducating the urban elite and not the other way around.

Good comparison. I am thinking along those lines too.

[MiG16]

let me remind everyone that all discussion of the monarchy-- direct, indirect, implied, subtle - is against forum rules.

keep that in mind please. any further discussions will mean more than the remark being deleted, but I will be forced to delete your entire post (even if there are some other interesting points) and will also involve suspension of your posting rights.

other than that, please be civil and enjoy the debate.

cheers

[samgrowth]

[deleted - MiG16]

Edited December 15, 2008 by MiG16

[Plus]

can I conclude that the biggest handicap to take the power out of the hands of the rich and powerful is the lack of an Social- or Christian democratic party European style with their social organizations who cover all the social midfield, in the Thai political arena?

You can conclude that.

There's of course Giles Socialist Worker party that has zero popular appeal.

Democrats are the closest to the Social Democrats you can get here.

On the other hand I'm not sure about taking power away from rich and powerful would accomplish anything other than a mild form of Khmer Rouge here. Forcing the rich and powerful to work for the benefit of the whole country sounds like a lot better idea to me.

[MiG16]

let me remind everyone that all discussion of the monarchy-- direct, indirect, implied, subtle - is against forum rules.

keep that in mind please. any further discussions will mean more than the remark being deleted, but I will be forced to delete your entire post (even if there are some other interesting points) and will also involve suspension of your posting rights.

other than that, please be civil and enjoy the debate.

cheers

[MyphuketLife]

I still quite don't get it.

Do you need to win a parliamentary majority to demand stop to grenade attacks on defecting MPs?

Do you need to be the biggest party in parliament to demand cancellation of Thaksin's passport or his extradition?

Do you need to be the Prime Minister to demand investigating corruption cases?

What exactly is unreasonable in those demands?

ANY government is obliged to act according to them without even asking. It's a sad state of things when these demands need to be made public and official.

Stop throwing grenades! How dare they to ask that!

If they want to change the country then form a political party. Who are they to demand changes when they are not voted by the people? Also the bombs came from within, they bombed themselves in a pathetic attempt to gain sympathy....

[Plus]

Who are they to demand changes when they are not voted by the people?

The ARE the people. It's people right, and even their duty, to demand things from the government.

I'm not even going to comment on bombing themselves theory.

[Journalist]

^And its the government's prerogative not to do as they demand.

[MyphuketLife]

PAD have broken the law on so many occasions with total impunity of course their megalomaniac hierarchy think they can now DICTATE what ever they wish.

Choose any word from the above comment that illustrates PAD intentions - no clues.

Yes they broke the law in protest against stealing, thieving, robbing, manipulating, greedy, self-serving, murderous and corrupt politicians.

The PAD broke the law to protest others that broke the law.... You don't find this ODD? What makes PAD's law breaking okay, but the same time the other law breakers bad? Both Thaksin and PAD are wrong and should be jailed. You can't have it both ways, if one law breaker should be jailed then so should all, including PAD.

[Captbill]

[sup][/sup]Many people here describe the PAD as anarchists. I prefer to call them good citizens who are devoted to their country. Why do so many think it is wrong to demand honest politicians, laws that protect citizen's rights, good government of, for and by the People, and free and honest elections?

To me, the proposals put forth by PAD are reasonable and justified, and in fact should be applied to the United States of America. Certainly corruption is as rampant in the USA as in Thailand, and the United States Bill of Rights, amendments to the Constitution, is under attack by these dishonest politicians as much as the Thai political system is. It appears that the people of Thailand are tired of the abuse and corruption and have acted.

Now, if only we in the USA could get organized enough to do the same!

[animatic]

I still quite don't get it.

Do you need to win a parliamentary majority to demand stop to grenade attacks on defecting MPs?

Do you need to be the biggest party in parliament to demand cancellation of Thaksin's passport or his extradition?

Do you need to be the Prime Minister to demand investigating corruption cases?

What exactly is unreasonable in those demands?

ANY government is obliged to act according to them without even asking. It's a sad state of things when these demands need to be made public and official.

Stop throwing grenades! How dare they to ask that!

If they want to change the country then form a political party. Who are they to demand changes when they are not voted by the people? Also the bombs came from within, they bombed themselves in a pathetic attempt to gain sympathy....

Do you actually hear yourself speak or is it a dismbodied voice?

Your dislike of PAD is so severe you can even accuse them of killing their own people.

They never needed to do that, and any halfway neutral observer could see that.

And by the way your Avatar lable "PAD fists of "peace"" shows :

Hands gripping forearms in a show of unity and strength.

it is an age old design, showing that 4 together can lift much more than one alone.

This is the same basic grip many people use to build 'human towers' at festivals

and not at all violent. It is used for moving heavy weights without ropes or pullies.

Edited December 15, 2008 by animatic

[MyphuketLife]

Who are they to demand changes when they are not voted by the people?

The ARE the people. It's people right, and even their duty, to demand things from the government.

I'm not even going to comment on bombing themselves theory.

I agree the people have a right, in fact a duty when they don't agree with the course of the government, to peacefully protest... The protests strike awareness, and hopefully bring about change, change in the politicians, change in the next voting cycle.... Those changes happen if the majority of people believe in your cause.

BUT (and this part you won't answer because you never do ).... Taking over 4 airports, government buildings, shooting at TV vans, kidnapping police, savagely beating a suspected RED shirt supporter, are NOT peaceful protests. Demanding changes with the threat of repeating said actions is not making a citizens demand, it is an attempt to hold the country at ransom.