ยุทธการยิงหน้าถ้ำ

[DavidHouston]

From Matichon Online:

"อาจจะมีความเคลื่อนไหวอะไรบ้างอย่างเป็นพิเศษ ที่คนของพรรคเพื่อไทยมีความถนัด รวมไปถึงเช้าวันที่ 15 ธ.ค. ก่อนโหวตเลือกนายกฯ อาจมียุทธการยิงหน้าถ้ำ เพื่อแย่งชิงส.ส.ในการโหวตให้กับฝ่ายตัวเอง"

"Perhaps there will be some changes due to special circumstances; (doing) this is what some of those who are affiliated with the Phua Thai party are particularly adept. In addition, on the morning of December 15th before the vote for the Prime Minister there may be “ a tactic of shooting into the mouth of the cave” in order to capture some of the representatives to support (Phua Thai’s) own candidate."

Anyone have any thoughts on the metaphor "to shoot at the mouth of the cave". Is this, perhaps, a description of cowardly behavior that, instead of pursuing one's prey into its lair, a hunter stands outside and shoots into the cave? Just guessing here. In any event, please explain the metaphor and provide a spiffy English equivalent.

Any help? Thanks.

[kriswillems]

Just a guess,

ยุทธการยิงหน้าถ้ำ

I think หน้าถ้ำ means in front of the cave

the word ยิง is normally followed by the weapon you shoot with, not by the target.

So, I think ยุทธการยิง just means "battle" here.

The cave sounds to me as the place were the decision is made.

The battle in front of the cave might refer to the last minute activities done to make people change their mind (just before entering the cave).

In my country some politicians and hanging around the election offices and trying to do their best to smile as nice as possible or shake hands of people they barely know. Maybe this is also an example of battle in front of the cave.

In Thailand some gifts/money might change hands at such a moment.

Edited December 13, 2008 by kriswillems

[mangkorn]

Interesting observations, Kris. If true, could it be the political equivalent of "back-room deals"? (or, "smoke-filled rooms?")

[kriswillems]

I am just guessing, but I think they want to say it is a last minute battle. This is also supported by the fact they say "in the morning, before the vote". I don't know these 2 English expressions, but it feels like these 2 expressions don't express the "time" aspect.

This metaphor (as I understand it) sounds very specific (the cave is the place were the election is taking place), I don't know if it can be used in other circumstances than an election.

Edited December 13, 2008 by kriswillems

[mangkorn]

Maybe, but if money is changing hands, it would seem to be more of a deal ("payoff," or whatever) than a battle.

In this particular case, my guess is that money is the only thing that could win it for Pheua Thai at this stage of the game. (They're talking about as much as 50 million baht each, for MPs to bolt from the new Newin-Democrat bloc.)

Political deals (including those involving payoffs) are usually made at the last minute ("eleventh hour?).

Edited December 13, 2008 by mangkorn

[kriswillems]

Well, the article doesn't talk about money, but everyone knows how things work in Thailand. So, we agree on that.

But the writer didn't express this by using the words "the battle in front of the cave". I don't see how the word ยุทธการยิง could be related to corruption, but I am not sure, because I only know the word ยุทธการ (battle) and not this word. However, some things don't need to be written to be understood. I think everyone knows there will be some money changing hands in this battle.

Everything I said is based on the fact the cave would be the election office/place. I am really not sure this is the correct interpretation. I would like to hear the opinion of others too.

Edited December 13, 2008 by kriswillems

[mangkorn]

Well, the article doesn't talk about money, but everyone knows how things work in Thailand. So, we agree on that.

Not only Thailand. Pretty much every country in the world, no?

[mangkorn]

But the writer didn't express this by using the words "the battle in front of the cave". I don't see how the word ยุทธการยิง could be related to corruption, but I am not sure, because I only know the word ยุทธการ (battle) and not this word. However, some things don't need to be written to be understood. I think everyone knows there will be some money changing hands in this battle.

Everything I said is based on the fact the cave would be the election office/place. I am really not sure this is the correct interpretation. I would like to hear the opinion of others too.

Your translation of ยุทธการ is correct, but it's a metaphor. The writer's term "battle" is typical of political speech: politicians always employ war metaphors (and, believe me, political journalists love to repeat them, or make up most of them on their own, to dizzying and absurd effect); what we're trying to understand is the meaning of this one, in the particular context - and David requested, and to "provide a spiffy English equivalent."

I'm not exactly certain what the writer means, either, although it seems clear that the cave he refers to is the halls (and backrooms) of Parliament, where it will be a selection, not really an election. For the Pheua Thai, it's a last stand - a battle, if you will - but these kinds of "battles" are fought in many ways.

I would like to hear other opinions as well.

Edited December 13, 2008 by mangkorn

[yoot]

There is another saying which relate to this one, that is คืนหมาหอน.

คืนหมาหอน refers to the night before having the vote.

ยุทธการยิงหน้าถ้ำ - ยุทธการ in this saying menas strategy. It's the strategy to get the votes by offering money to any voters who support the opposed party in exchange to vote for their party in the morning before the vote, like Kriswillems explained in his post. It's like hunting. If you want to get your prey and you know where it is, the last chance you could get it, is waiting for it in front of the cave and shoot it before it gets into the cave.

[tgeezer]

There is another saying which relate to this one, that is คืนหมาหอน.

คืนหมาหอน refers to the night before having the vote.

ยุทธการยิงหน้าถ้ำ - ยุทธการ in this saying menas strategy. It's the strategy to get the votes by offering money to any voters who support the opposed party in exchange to vote for their party in the morning before the vote, like Kriswillems explained in his post. It's like hunting. If you want to get your prey and you know where it is, the last chance you could get it, is waiting for it in front of the cave and shoot it before it gets into the cave.

We call that the 'eleventh hour' The last possible moment, eleventh hour negotiations.

[DavidHouston]

Thank you so much, Kris, Mangkorn, Khun Yoot, and Geezer. The following is from Wikipedia. I appreciate any corrections you can make to my translation.

คืนหมาหอน หมายถึง คืนสุดท้ายก่อนวันเลือกตั้งมีความสำคัญในแง่ว่าเป็นคืนที่จะมีการทุจริตการเลือกตั้งสูงมาก

“The night of the howling dog” refers to the importance of the final night before an election because it is the period of greatest electoral dishonesty.

โดยเฉพาะการตระเวนตามบ้านเรือนทุกหลังคาเรือนเพื่อซื้อเสียงครั้งสุดท้าย

This is the final period during which (party hacks) roam among the village households to buy votes.

โดยเป็นการจ่ายเงินที่หวังผลกำไรสูงมาก เพราะหากประเมินแล้วว่าคะแนนตนยังไม่ถึงเป้าหมายที่ตั้งไว้ หรือเสียงที่ซื้อไปก่อนหน้านี้ถูกซื้อไปด้วยเงินที่สูงกว่า ก็จะต้องรีบซื้อเสียงหรือแจกเงินเพิ่ม

(This is the period) during which payment (for votes) is believed to be of the greatest potential benefit because if (the party) has determined that its voting basis is not reached its established goal or the number of votes which it has already purchased have has been superseded by (someone else) for a higher amount, (the party) must hurry out and buy more votes or pass out even more money.

. . . การแจกเงินซื้อเสียงที่จะมีอิทธิพลต่อผู้ไปลงคะแนนนั้น หากทำในวันใกล้เลือกตั้งมากที่สุดก็อาจช่วยให้เป็นที่จดจำได้ง่ายด้วย

. . . Giving out money and vote buying in order to have the greatest influence on the voting public will be assured if such activity is conducted on the day closest to the election day because the voters can most easily remember (whom to vote for this close to the election).

เนื่องจากปฏิบัติการดังกล่าวกระทำในเวลากลางคืนด้วยลักษณะหลบ ๆ ซ่อน ๆ และมีพิรุธ สุนัขเฝ้าบ้านจึงพากันเห่าหอนเกรียวกราว คืนนั้นจึงเรียก "คืนหมาหอน"

Because this activity is done in the middle of the night in a evasive, secret, and suspicious manner, the watchdogs in (the villagers’) homes are likely to howl loudly. That is the reason it is called “the night of the howling dogs.”

http://th.wikipedia.org/wiki/คื...;อน

[mangkorn]

I believe หมาหอน has even been turned into a slang verb for "to vote," (i.e., sell your vote).

On election day in rural areas, one may hear people call out to each other: ไปหมาหอนรึยัง

[mangkorn]

We call that the 'eleventh hour' The last possible moment, eleventh hour negotiations.

See post #5

[tgeezer]

Just a guess,

ยุทธการยิงหน้าถ้ำ

"I think หน้าถ้ำ means in front of the cave

the word ยิง is normally followed by the weapon you shoot with, not by the target.

So, I think ยุทธการยิง just means "battle" here."

Q.

Anybody want to discuss this? I looked up ยิง and it means: to fire a projectile, หน้าถ้ำ modifies ยิง There is no object. How do you say shoot someone? ปืน modifies ยิง again no object, means to shoot a gun. Does there need to be another verb ตี perhaps, to make it transitive?

For general interest: "ยิงปืนนัดเดียวได้นกสองตัว" the same as "Kill two birds with one stone."

Edited December 15, 2008 by tgeezer

[meadish_sweetball]

I looked up ยิง and it means: to fire a projectile, หน้าถ้ำ modifies ยิง There is no object. How do you say shoot someone? ปืน modifies ยิง again no object, means to shoot a gun. Does there need to be another verb ตี perhaps, to make it transitive?

For general interest: "ยิงปืนนัดเดียวได้นกสองตัว" the same as "Kill two birds with one stone."

How do you say shoot someone?

I have been taught it is ยิงถูก [object], but this is from academia so while probably formally correct it may not be what people actually say.

[tgeezer]

I looked up ยิง and it means: to fire a projectile, หน้าถ้ำ modifies ยิง There is no object. How do you say shoot someone? ปืน modifies ยิง again no object, means to shoot a gun. Does there need to be another verb ตี perhaps, to make it transitive?

For general interest: "ยิงปืนนัดเดียวได้นกสองตัว" the same as "Kill two birds with one stone."

How do you say shoot someone?

I have been taught it is ยิงถูก [object], but this is from academia so while probably formally correct it may not be what people actually say.

Thank you for answering. I am being pedantic as always but I believe that in order to break the rules you aught to know what they are. I suppose all languages are similar I know that ยิงกวาง ยิงปืน are not the same although they say shoot a dear and shoot a gun, the gun however lives on whereas the dear gets cooked. The definition of ยิง does include อาวุธ so maybe this is the get out word, if you are using a weapon then it is either defined คำขยาย ปืน or the object กวาง in the case of confusion 'shoot the gun from his hand', that case would need amplification.

Edited December 21, 2008 by tgeezer

[DavidHouston]

There is also the "ลั่น" series of terms:

ลั่น [V] shoot; fire; pull the trigger; discharge

Syn. ยิง

Sample:กระสุนทุกนัดที่ลั่นออกจากปากกระบอกปืน ย่อมมีมนุษย์เป็นผู้อยู่หลังพานท้ายปืน

"For every bullet that is fired from a gun, there is a person behind the stock." [Perhaps, "Guns don't kill; people do."]

ลั่นนก [V] to pull the trigger

ลั่นไก [V] to pull the trigger

From the RID,

ลั่น . . . .ยิง เช่น ลั่นธนู ลั่นปืน; ปริออกแตกออกเป็นทางยาวและมีเสียงดัง . . .

. . . to shoot, for example, to shoot an arrow, to shoot a gun; to burst straight out and make a loud noise.

ลั่นไก ก. เหนี่ยวไกปืนให้นกสับลงที่แก๊ป, ลั่นนก ก็ว่า.

. . . . to pull the trigger of a gun so that the flint strikes the cap; the term ลั่นนก is also used.

[Could it be that the word "ยิง" was meant originally to take the object of the victim of the shooting, where as the verb "ลั่น" was to take the object as the instrument of the shooting, i.e., a bow or a gun?]

Edited December 21, 2008 by DavidHouston

[tgeezer]

There is also the "ลั่น" series of terms:

ลั่น [V] shoot; fire; pull the trigger; discharge

Syn. ยิง

Sample:กระสุนทุกนัดที่ลั่นออกจากปากกระบอกปืน ย่อมมีมนุษย์เป็นผู้อยู่หลังพานท้ายปืน

"For every bullet that is fired from a gun, there is a person behind the stock." [Perhaps, "Guns don't kill; people do."]

ลั่นนก [V] to pull the trigger

ลั่นไก [V] to pull the trigger

From the RID,

ลั่น . . . .ยิง เช่น ลั่นธนู ลั่นปืน; ปริออกแตกออกเป็นทางยาวและมีเสียงดัง . . .

. . . to shoot, for example, to shoot an arrow, to shoot a gun; to burst straight out and make a loud noise.

ลั่นไก ก. เหนี่ยวไกปืนให้นกสับลงที่แก๊ป, ลั่นนก ก็ว่า.

. . . . to pull the trigger of a gun so that the flint strikes the cap; the term ลั่นนก is also used.

[Could it be that the word "ยิง" was meant originally to take the object of the victim of the shooting, where as the verb "ลั่น" was to take the object as the instrument of the shooting, i.e., a bow or a gun?]

I think that the English definition is a little too specialized, I even checked Lexitron and it doesn't say shoot, sway or similar in fact, but I am just using vibrate or tremble or 'Move away and return', 'back and forth' as I wrote in my mail. A trigger when pulled does this.

[tgeezer]

There is also the "ลั่น" series of terms:

ลั่น [V] shoot; fire; pull the trigger; discharge

Syn. ยิง

Sample:กระสุนทุกนัดที่ลั่นออกจากปากกระบอกปืน ย่อมมีมนุษย์เป็นผู้อยู่หลังพานท้ายปืน

"For every bullet that is fired from a gun, there is a person behind the stock." [Perhaps, "Guns don't kill; people do."]

ลั่นนก [V] to pull the trigger

ลั่นไก [V] to pull the trigger

From the RID,

ลั่น . . . .ยิง เช่น ลั่นธนู ลั่นปืน; ปริออกแตกออกเป็นทางยาวและมีเสียงดัง . . .

. . . to shoot, for example, to shoot an arrow, to shoot a gun; to burst straight out and make a loud noise.

ลั่นไก ก. เหนี่ยวไกปืนให้นกสับลงที่แก๊ป, ลั่นนก ก็ว่า.

. . . . to pull the trigger of a gun so that the flint strikes the cap; the term ลั่นนก is also used.

[Could it be that the word "ยิง" was meant originally to take the object of the victim of the shooting, where as the verb "ลั่น" was to take the object as the instrument of the shooting, i.e., a bow or a gun?]

I think that the English definition is a little too specialized, I even checked Lexitron and it doesn't say shoot, sway or similar in fact, but I am just using vibrate or tremble or 'Move away and return', 'back and forth' as I wrote in my mail. A trigger when pulled does this.

สั่น for ลั่น oops! also if you ever find a golf ball with Oops! written on it, it is mine. Language is not my only problem.

I have looked up ลั่น and it says as a คำวีเศษณ์ เสียงดัง For the verb and after ยิง the new dictionary adds ลั่นปืน ลั่นธนู but then seems to have a visual element to it in addition to the sound, refers to flowers blooming, fish traps springing, neither of which would be very noisey but need not put anyone off the scent if you visualize a slow motion film of a flower blooming a sort of pop. A very good example in the dictionary is แก้วใส่น้ำร้อนลั่น that makes crack the noise and in 'slo mo' it looks very like a bloom bursting out. Anyway I think that it means fire or shoot, but I think that ยิง has to be first choice because it actually says weapon. So I think that you are right, ยิงคน ลั่นปืน Which ever we just go out and say what we like if someone knows better they will tell us. Seen a lot of new words today I wonder how many of them I will remember.

Edited December 21, 2008 by tgeezer