Dismay At Proposed Cabinet

[astral]

I suspect the Massage Industry is competitive so she will bring valuable skills to the table.

Or at least she will know how to massage the figures.............

[geriatrickid]

It seems to me that the new cabinet is certainly no better than the 2 that preceded them under the alleged Thaksin toadies and in some cases, is significantly worse. This then begs the question, where are all the members of TV that were roundly condemning previous cabinet formulas now that ministers have been selected of dubious qualifications? Convenient absences? In denial? At the end of the day, this cabinet will certainly not respond to the needs of the vast majority of the population, so, hopefully it gets flushed quickly.

If you pretend to "know it all", why don't you step forward, send an e-mail to the democrats or directly to Abhisit and give him a helping hand, show him which politicians are clean, and which ones he should "employ", wich position they should fill in, you know and don't just blame verbally people here in the forum, simply airing their point of view!

Go ahead, the world needs genuine heroes!

If you know better, do better!

Seems I hit a nerve didn't I. I do not pretend to know it all. Rather, I was merely holding up the mirror so that you could see that the ridiculed warts of the previous cabinets are now described as beauty marks for this cabinet. Yes, some people have at least been consistent. However, the most vociferous critics of the previous cabinet, especially those that rode the high horse of morality accusing previous ministers of corruption and incompetence now make excuses for this cabinet. It's not so much the cabinet that is disturbing but the administrative changes in key ministries. If you do not find it curious that the chief policeman that allegedly let the airport nonsense take place was reinstated then nothing I could say would cause you to see that this cabinet as anything but wholesome. As for your suggestion that I call up the PM and offer advice, I surely would, but I am unaware of any Thai official ever taking into consideration local farang views, so it would be a first.

[Gravelrash]

It seems to me that the new cabinet is certainly no better than the 2 that preceded them under the alleged Thaksin toadies and in some cases, is significantly worse. This then begs the question, where are all the members of TV that were roundly condemning previous cabinet formulas now that ministers have been selected of dubious qualifications? Convenient absences? In denial? At the end of the day, this cabinet will certainly not respond to the needs of the vast majority of the population, so, hopefully it gets flushed quickly.

If you pretend to "know it all", why don't you step forward, send an e-mail to the democrats or directly to Abhisit and give him a helping hand, show him which politicians are clean, and which ones he should "employ", wich position they should fill in, you know and don't just blame verbally people here in the forum, simply airing their point of view!

Go ahead, the world needs genuine heroes!

If you know better, do better!

The government maneuvered situations to have a defacto coup. Their constant complaint was corruption. As such after finally taking office it is up to them to prove their claim to being clean, despite a long history of corruption and cutting deals with minority parties to form government.

It is hardly the posters job to form a cabinet, so wherein lies the rational for this utterly absurd post?

[Gravelrash]

If you don't mind I kindly advise you to read the novel "The 3 kingdom by Luo Guanzhong" and some books from Sun Tzu, maybe after that you will understand a litle bit more about politics

i really like it if somebody recommend some books. that makes it also more clear from what kind of political camp, from what political corner someones arguments are coming from.

but your books now seems to be a little bit exotic, can you explain more why a study of ""The 3 kingdom by Luo Guanzhong" and some books from Sun Tzu" would help us to understand a little bit more about politics?

If you read this books you will understand

Also add

The Prince by Machiavelli.

Benjamin Franklin: An American Life by Walter Issacson.

John Adams by David McCullough

Uses and abuses of power in the political arena.

And not just in Americas or Italy.

Why not toss in Von Clausewitz "On War" to round it off. Well, some important pieces of literature here, and it impresses the hel_l out of me that they can be cited. What particular sections did you think had the most relevance to the current political situation and which excerpts will you be posting so as to share your political insights as to the Democrats current strategy with the rest of us here?

[Gravelrash]

What's wrong with the Cabinet?

Korn is a Finance Minister, working together with exCP exec - certainly better than spa operator Surapong or Suchart who started his job by trying to intimidate the Bank of Thailand, copmletely out of line.

Inerior went to Newin's boy - surely they had election control in mind, Newin's MPs must not be allowed to lose to Phue Thai to keep the coalition going.

Kosit, the Foreign Minister, is a career diplomat, unlike Noppadon (a newbie who single handedly created Preah Vihear crisis) or the other guy who had absolutely no clue about his responsibilities. You can argue that his airport closure comments were inappropriate, but it's his job to overcome the impression that PAD were a bunch of terrorists. He's not obliged to comply with Thaivisa members views or present some alternative reality where Democrats and PAD are politically poles apart. He might tone it down a bit, but he has to convince foreigners that PAD protests were important part of democratic developement one way or another.

There are a couple of bad apples in the Cabinet, but they are flanked by knowledgeable and capable deputies from Democrat party, they won't inflict too much damage.

Oevrall Abhisit's cabinet is miles better than Samak's, and it's likely to work rather than indulge in endless street battles.

Oh Plus, lets just leave alone what is wrong with the cabinet, I just couldn't be bothered.

Now...Samak had to indulge in street battles with who? PAD/Democrats per chance?

The Democrats certainly will not be indulging in street battles with the same who now will they?

So...a governmnet that doesn't have to battle the PAD/Democrats is a governmnet that is credible? Now obviously the only one that doesn't have to fight the PAD/Democrats is...the Democrats?

I think I will need a few beers to try and wrestle the logic in this one.

[Plus]

The logic is very simple - Democrats were put in power only because PPP's street battles had too many casualties to let it go on. NOT because Democrats are clean or super capable or massively popular. The military, the alleged conspirators, don't really give a <deleted> who the Prime Minister is, it doesn't matter to them. It's the gradual descent into civil war that forced them to take political role again, not PPP's incompetence or corruption.

If there was a credible leader among smaller coalition parties they would have pushed for him instead of controversial Abhisit - because now we have a prospect or Reds picking up where PAD has left off.

And there lies Abhisit's main problem - he was "given" the position because there was no one else, he didn't really "win" it, so he has little clout and he has to prove that he can lead the coalition, not just be carried by political currents, and his political weakness will be fully exploited by Reds to call for fresh elections.

Unfortunately Thailand has a serious crisis of leadership, Abhisit at least has a well known name, unlike that dude from Phue Thai who is not even an MP. Come to think of it, Abhisit is the closest to a proper leader we can get, the only "bright" spot in the sea of Thai politics. Certainly not as convincing as Thaksin, but still miles ahead of anyone else.

[brahmburgers]

Let's give Abhisit a fair amount of time to prove his worth. Similar to Obama, though with a different set of challenges, he's taking over a ship of state with manifold flaws. He can't be expected to fix them all. He's already made a pledge to improve education, which the previous 4 administrations (including Thaksin's) haven't had any gumption to do. Indeed, the 3 previous administrations (since Thaksin) have spent most of their calories trying avoid doing any real governing.

Abhisit's role, as much as anything else, is to restore a sense of self-worth to Thai people in general. Similar to one of the roles of the monarchy, an effective PM inspires citizens to aspire to develop the best of their potential - as individuals and collectively.

[tig28]

I did note your earlier points tig, but it was the one above which I disagreed with.

I am also not sure how much "final say" Aphasit had in the make up of his cabinet. It may well have been a case of accept him, or her, or whoever, or we [insert your coalition partner of choice] will not join the coalition - and we all know what that would have meant.

I doubt there is any politician, be they in Oz, LOS or another place, who would be principled enough to reject the opportunity to become PM by rejecting (relatively) minor demands by potential coalition partners.

But as you correctly point out, coalition fighting in Oz was generally based on the Nats polling badly, and the Lib back benchers questioning why a Nat should have their snout in the trough ahead of an ambitious (and perhaps more talented) Lib.

Hi JACK

Disagree with .... not a problem .... you may be right. My belief is that politics is generally dominated by individuals I would be loathe to have marry into my family ....or even entrust with my valuables....... but also amongst them are men of character & conviction --- some of immense intelligence who are great assets to their country.

Consider: A sitting Liberal PM who in a deadlocked cabinet cast his deciding vote against himself as he refused to lead such a divided government.

An aspiring Labor candidate for PM who risked party endorsement by refusing to lead a Labor Day march that included Jack Halfpenny.

The longest serving politician in Australia"s history --- who would never--ever--back down from what he believed in - despite threats --political--financial and physical. In his political career Sen. Jim Keefe survived and won minds as a man of extreme principal. A man to emulate. I regret that I only knew him in the last half of his career. (I never worked for him.)

There really are many more.

I wish I had similar stories about coalition battles --- but I do not. Despite this JACK ... I stand by my comments to HENRY .... Men like those above would never consider selling their soul just to achieve momentary power --- it would be beneath them. If success could not be achieved correctly --- they would pass.

The current PM faced decision time --- he decided to go along with the demands of his minor partners -- no one forced him--- he decided this was a price he was prepared to pay. No excuses as was suggested.

I doubt there is any potential coalition partner who would risk the opportunity to leave the wilderness and become a (smaller than hoped) member of the government by holding out for (relatively) minor demands.

All the best for the New Year to all.

[animatic]

If you don't mind I kindly advise you to read the novel "The 3 kingdom by Luo Guanzhong" and some books from Sun Tzu, maybe after that you will understand a litle bit more about politics

i really like it if somebody recommend some books. that makes it also more clear from what kind of political camp, from what political corner someones arguments are coming from.

but your books now seems to be a little bit exotic, can you explain more why a study of ""The 3 kingdom by Luo Guanzhong" and some books from Sun Tzu" would help us to understand a little bit more about politics?

If you read this books you will understand

Also add

The Prince by Machiavelli.

Benjamin Franklin: An American Life by Walter Issacson.

John Adams by David McCullough

Uses and abuses of power in the political arena.

And not just in Americas or Italy.

Why not toss in Von Clausewitz "On War" to round it off. Well, some important pieces of literature here, and it impresses the hel_l out of me that they can be cited. What particular sections did you think had the most relevance to the current political situation and which excerpts will you be posting so as to share your political insights as to the Democrats current strategy with the rest of us here?

Dang I forgot Von Clausewitz... it's been awhile. Thanks good addition.

I am glad you like some of my references to 'real politic' and history.

The infighting of the 1st 3 US Presidential elections/administrations comes to mind,

and the concurrent references to Jefferson and his bargening abilities.

Adams was reluctant, but rode heard on a miasma of competing interisist.

I see Adams some what like an aged Abhisit.

And Franklin's days in Paris trying to get french support for another peoples revolution.

Sadly I can not find verbatim quotes at the moment. I have moved house in the last year,

and the rooms expecting book shelves for the books are not completed. And they are still boxed.

I'll note a variety of books also have 'acoustic qualities', not just literary,

so are planned for a room needing good sonic qualities, yet to be walled up.

Andrew Jackson (ref. below), is notable for the distaff moralities of the day

actually causing changes in the cabinet and VP.

The Christmas gift list this year included:

Eleanor of Aquitaine: A Life, by Alison Weir

{ book-ending Queen Isabela by Alison Weir (ye olde english Yawowapa}

(follow on the The Calamitous 14th Century, 'story of Engurand D'Coucy');

American Lion: Andrew Jackson in the White House by Jon Meacham; (excellent)

The Black Swan: The Impact of the Highly Improbable by Nassim Nicholas Taleb;

This later fits so well in to days unexpected times...

What we expect, based on our past HINDSIGHT of modified memories of what we observed,

but misinterpreted at the time, can lead us to in turn misinterpret current events and/or ignore

pertinent datum within, till we screw the shit and the pooch hits da fan... To mangle a metaphor.

Mind bending. I am re-reading it at the moment. Taleb actually can quote Karl Popper properly.

And a bit of nautical history:

Flying Cloud: The True Story of America's Most Famous Clipper Ship and the Woman Who Guided Her David W. Shaw

America's Victory: The Heroic Story of a Team of Ordinary Americans-- and How They Won the Greatest Yacht Race Ever

And a Junie B first grader too.

Black Swan should be followed on by Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace.

and/or a Louis deBerniers...

Who was recently impugning the positive aspects of eclecticism?

Oh yes P_D of course.

Drat, literally literary topic drift...

Edited December 27, 2008 by animatic

[animatic]

It timed out during an edit.

The infighting of the 1st 3 US Presidential elections/administrations comes to mind,

Yes, Washington was easily elected, but hated the weasel dance of the job.

Should add the concurrent references to Jefferson and his bargening abilities.

Adams was reluctant in the job, but rode herd on a miasma of competing interests.

The dirty politics of that day is certainly of a par with todays.

just less blatant than ~Thai 'cash for seats'. I see Adams some what like an aged Abhisit.

He and Jefferson were noted owners of two of the finest libraries of their day, though they barely got along.

Incompatabilities of style , while both had solid substance about them.

Franklin's days in Paris trying to get French support for another 'peoples revolution'.

And general in fighting with appointed twits and political fools, and sometime Jefferson.

In all cases there were political appointees and well connected fools as spanners in the works,

that these great minds had to contend with regularly.

Edited December 27, 2008 by animatic

[baht&sold]

Some want red, some want yellow but MOST probably want GREEN as in go forward already

Edited December 27, 2008 by baht&sold

[brahmburgers]

Some want red, some want yellow but MOST probably want GREEN as in go forward already

How about 'green' for giving more than lip service to the environment?!

Most Thai peoples' sense of husbandry for plants and animals doesn't extend past their dogs, chickens, farm animals, teak plantations or muddy fish ponds. Abhisit would gain a gold star by his name in my book if he backed programs to instill a deeper appreciation among Thais for real environmental issues- - not just concepts, but day to day activity. Some suggestions:

>>> not burn plastic in burn piles,

>>> deal with trash responsibly at outdoor activities

>>> crack down more severely on poachers

>>> plant trees, and start a 'grandfather tree' program nationwide that instills a greater appreciation for large trees. It would offer certification and be competitive - from one tambon to another.

>>> have environmental centers throughout Thailand - especially geared toward schoolkids - with activities, nature walks, craft projects (with recycled items), competitions, sports, etc. - also teach about alternative energy.

>>> develop a program to have methane generating vats within villages (cost: a few thousand baht each) - to enable folks to make their own cooking and/or water heating fuel for nearly free. The LPG people wouldn't like it, but so be it.

>>> develop programs to encourage budding inventors - particularly geared to environmental projects.

....the list could go on.

As it stands, Thailand is not green. There are no wild mammals (other than a few field mice and some rats) in 99% of Thailand. After every outdoor event in Thailand, the grounds are strewn with paper and plastic. ...and such.

[animatic]

'Green' would be good here, and LONG overdue.

[Plus]

Some want red, some want yellow but MOST probably want GREEN as in go forward already

You mean Green as a mix of blue (Dems color) with yellow PAD? It's as green as it gets now. Reds feel left out, though.

[Plus]

There's this interesting article in the Nation today:

"Pheu Thai plans image make-over in bid to win more public acceptance"

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/12/28...cs_30092001.php

It contains this interesing passsage:

"... working group agreed that party MPs should play roles outside Parliament as well, regularly visiting their constituents in a bid to create a better understanding of the party and to boost its popularity.

He said, however, that MPs would not be informed about every important party decision."

<deleted>?

MPs would not be informed of important party decisions?

What kind of decisions that might be?

>>>>

Phue Thai has unveiled the list of topics they are going to raise in parliament during policy debate.

They want to grill Abhisit on military service issue, I hope he can say enough in his defence to make them look like clutching at the straws.

They also want to talk about two ministers giving instructions to provincial governors before policy announcement in the parliament. I don't know how much traction they can get with this, seems like a trivial matter to me. The grounds for objection is trivial, not the orders themselves, they were about monitoring red shirts movements and possibly blocking their routes to Bangkok.

If reds stick to this game plan they'd damage their image even further - it's time to propose solutions, not time to look for problems. The country needs working government, not another excuse to kick it out. The general feeling, even among the PPP supporters, is reported to be "give Dems a chance".

Edited December 28, 2008 by Plus

[Siripon]

Watch the rise of Newin's group over the next year. Somsak Thepsutin, the de facto leader of the Poomjai Thai party and Pradit Patraprasit, the Secretary-General of the Ruamjai Chart Pattana party have constantly tried to persuade Newin's group to join them and hence increase their bargaining power.

It's almost certain now that Newin's group will join the Poomjai Thai party, resulting in nearly 40 members; when the former members of Matchima Thai party are added, they'll be the second biggest party in the government.

Running the Interior,Communication and Commerce ministries also gives the leading lights a chance to produce results and achievements that will surely attract some politicians from other parties. By the time of the next election I expect the Poomjai party to have 70 to 80 MPs, this number will ensure that are invited to join whoever forms the next government.

[Old Man River]

Watch the rise of Newin's group over the next year. Somsak Thepsutin, the de facto leader of the Poomjai Thai party and Pradit Patraprasit, the Secretary-General of the Ruamjai Chart Pattana party have constantly tried to persuade Newin's group to join them and hence increase their bargaining power.

It's almost certain now that Newin's group will join the Poomjai Thai party, resulting in nearly 40 members; when the former members of Matchima Thai party are added, they'll be the second biggest party in the government.

Running the Interior,Communication and Commerce ministries also gives the leading lights a chance to produce results and achievements that will surely attract some politicians from other parties. By the time of the next election I expect the Poomjai party to have 70 to 80 MPs, this number will ensure that are invited to join whoever forms the next government.

How do you see the party leadership between Somsak and Newin playing out (i.e. do you see a power play ultimately taking place?).

[permanent_disorder]

If reds stick to this game plan they'd damage their image even further - it's time to propose solutions, not time to look for problems. The country needs working government, not another excuse to kick it out. The general feeling, even among the PPP supporters, is reported to be "give Dems a chance".

reports about the 'general feeling'? have you more of this kind of reports?

and for the sake of a "undamaged image" of the dem's government, the opposition should just shut up?

[Samuian]

It seems to me that the new cabinet is certainly no better than the 2 that preceded them under the alleged Thaksin toadies and in some cases, is significantly worse. This then begs the question, where are all the members of TV that were roundly condemning previous cabinet formulas now that ministers have been selected of dubious qualifications? Convenient absences? In denial? At the end of the day, this cabinet will certainly not respond to the needs of the vast majority of the population, so, hopefully it gets flushed quickly.

If you pretend to "know it all", why don't you step forward, send an e-mail to the democrats or directly to Abhisit and give him a helping hand, show him which politicians are clean, and which ones he should "employ", wich position they should fill in, you know and don't just blame verbally people here in the forum, simply airing their point of view!

Go ahead, the world needs genuine heroes!

If you know better, do better!

Seems I hit a nerve didn't I. I do not pretend to know it all. Rather, I was merely holding up the mirror so that you could see that the ridiculed warts of the previous cabinets are now described as beauty marks for this cabinet. Yes, some people have at least been consistent. However, the most vociferous critics of the previous cabinet, especially those that rode the high horse of morality accusing previous ministers of corruption and incompetence now make excuses for this cabinet. It's not so much the cabinet that is disturbing but the administrative changes in key ministries. If you do not find it curious that the chief policeman that allegedly let the airport nonsense take place was reinstated then nothing I could say would cause you to see that this cabinet as anything but wholesome. As for your suggestion that I call up the PM and offer advice, I surely would, but I am unaware of any Thai official ever taking into consideration local farang views, so it would be a first.

So give it a try, make it better, you have witnessed the majority building, the hot deals, this is Thailand as you say yourself no farang will ever have an open ear, but still this doesn't mean that "of them" nobody is as smart as many farangs here claim to be.

It's the way things have been, for a long time and been consolidated to help to line the pockets of the ones in political office.

Everyone sober enough must have known that what follows will have to be "a deal with the devil", here are things as given, not as wished!

That is why I came up with the suggestion: "Go ahead show them, how to make it better"!

I know it will be used by the opponents of what has happened and how things have been handled, again and again to seek to ridicule the existing, newly formed government.

But have a close look whom you ridicule, or better the idea behind it all!

The Police-Chief has been reinstated because... the now FM claimed the occupation was "Fun"and apologized for it... and, and, and come on, give them a break and some much needed time!

And don't wobble, by now the "redshirts" are out there to claim "Democracy" and this newly Government to step down, if this will have to happen, as this would bethe "democratical rightful", Oh' dear Thailand, then a new government will be formed and the vicious spiral will go on and on and on in the name of "Democracy"!

Hope I could make a point here somewhere, this is not the UK neither Australia or the US, this is Thailand....... with it's very own, unique Situation and there are forces who know, and are working on it... at least I am convinced that this is so!

Everything will be done to not let this happen, because most of the "grass root big Boys" will lose their grip and with them the "Overlords", NOT the "Elites in Bangkok", they have their own business to take care of!

Maybe you can remember the issue when it was tried to take power out of the hands of the "Puu Yai Ban" and reduce the Influence of the "Kemnan"?

It is known for quite some time that here are the root causes of who makes it and who won't - no matter what policy, they only need someone to put a word in - done!

This is the problem, the same applies for people obviously unfit for office, but because they are some key players with influence, without serving their interests, nothing will be accomplished - that why they had to go for the "deal with the devil"...

How to change a running system, that has been running on greasing for such a long time, in a mere two weeks, some over expectations here maybe??

The person accused of being a "mamasan", well prejudice, a great target to point fingers at, isn't it?

But maybe she is very worthy for the position she is in... maybe give 'em a break and some time!

[JimsKnight]

The gene pool of available minds in the political sphere

is too small to support many great thinkers, so those that CAN think,

get unavoidably hamstrung with those that can't for organizational reasons.

She maybe a pimp, but I would say she knows how businesses run.

Posiedon is one of the big zoot operations with a international clientel.

Many who like a more discrete rest stop. I'll give her some points for

political horse trading to get in this far.

If I compare her to Chalerm...

hmmm she smells more roses. A little.

Yes no doubt to farangs it seems madness, but TIT.

Defo 100% agree, the squares, prudes and puritans in the opposition have a bee in their bonnet as it is and *oh* how its soooo earth shattering that a Cabinet minister is connected to an entertainment establishment

Poseidon wouldn't even be open if it wasn't for the patronage in the first place folks

Good on the PM for making a brave choice and a fresh change from the usual dinosaurs fossils in thai politics