Tourist Found Dead On Koh Phangan

[grantbkk]

So he killed her to show he wasn't a bad person??Sounds like he is seriously messed up in the head.Poor woman.

In the Thai psyche, there is a thin line between appearing normal and going beserk.

"Saving face" here can take precedence over everything else. If you get in close and mix with Thai folk, you'll find that threats of murder are not a rarity. A significant segment of Thais can sling death threats for things that might appear almost trivial to westerners - especially things that can be construed as demeaning.

One of my neighbors had an inspector come to the front gate of his house - looking for a thief. Right away, the both men realized it was mistaken identity. The inspector turned to leave, but the neighbor shouted death threats at him for the next five minutes.

Another neighbor couldn't figure out how to put soiled pampers in a trash can with a lid - to keep dogs out. His farang neighbor (me) mentioned it a few times (new sets of soiled pampers were found strewn all across my lawn every morning for a week). The neighbor shouted death threats at me.

.......such is a part of the real underbelly of Thai folks.

IMHO It would be best for us not to get into any type of confrontation with a Thai. It is normal for a Thai to make death threats but they often do not follow through. The Thais, like many other people, keep a lot of their rage bottled up and show no signs of violence until it is too late. Many of us could become a victim of violence without warning over a minor disagreement. Like most developing countries a recognized vocation here is "hitman". Someone who becomes upset at one of us simply has to front a few thousand Baht to put a contract in play. I guess the upside of being a farang is that it cost several times the amount it takes to kill another Thai. I do not get much satisfaction from that.

[oevna]

i know other KPG expats tend to disagree, but this mentality among a lot of the Thais there is nothing new.

I am not a resident of Ko Phangan so I don't have much insight into the local culture (I have only visited there once, a few years ago). However, speaking for Thais in general, I have known a lot of Thai people, and even lived with some of them for several months at a time. Obviously, this is not the same as living with people for years, but I feel like I got a fairly good sense for the temperament of the people around me. I have never once herd any of them make death threats. I have seen them get into heated arguments where feelings were hurt, but it didn't escalate to violence. I am aware that there are dangerous people in Thailand, as there are in every country. But I did not get the feeling that ordinary Thai people were dangerous.

As for the mentality of Thais thinking that this murder case is nothing new, I would say that while many of them may be resigned to accepting it as just the way things are in Thailand, they don't condone it. They are just aware that the police usually don't have the motivation or ability to do anything to effectively deter it (criminals in any country will take advantage of a situation where there is poor law enforcement). The majority of the people that I lived near seemed like normal folks who are not malicious.

I live in the US, and there are plenty of very dangerous places here that I would never go, as well as violent and dangerous people. But because I have lived here for long enough to know where to avoid and how to recognize the signs of stereotypically dangerous people, I feel safe living here. However, when I have friends visiting from overseas, I am very aware that they don't have this natural sense for how to recognize dangerous places in the US, so I would never think to just let them out on their own before they know how to stay safe.

I think that there are similarities in Thailand with respect to expats who live in Thailand. We as relative newcomers don't always have a natural sense for the danger signs in Thai society, the way Thais do. So some foreigners find themselves in dangerous situations in Thailand more often than they would back home. This obviously does not justify any crimes that they may may fall victim to, but it may explain the increased incidence of them among otherwise street-savvy people.

[lazyguy]

I am a Koh Phangan resident since 5 years and I can say that the mentality between southern Thais and Thais living in Central Thailand and in the North is different. The southern mentality is - as it is in any other country the same on this planet - much more controlled by emotions. I believe this is a result of the individual amount of sun which each single region receives. In addition Thai mentality is an explosive mixture which is fundamentally based on personal pride and honor. Why is Thai mentality an explosive mixture? Because of the "mai bock" thing. "Don´t speak! Particularly: Don´t speak bad! Do not criticize!" Means do not to bother anybody with your negative personal issues. Thus: swallow it and thats what the younger generations have to do and learned to do. By a certain time after smiling and bewaring face all the time inner pressure needs ventilation and then a small nuisance - whatever it could be - is enough that somewhere someones fuses plug off and someone else gets seriously injured or killed - mostly in the heat of the moment.

This also happens in the western world but not at a comparable ratio as western education does not allow us easily to attack one physically out of emotional hurt. The emotional barrier for feeling ready to do comparable things like what happened here again is in Thailand lower than in the western world. In fact Thailand is under the top ten countries with the highest murder rate in the world. I believe that a big number of killings in Thailand are caused by emotional rejection, unanswered emotions or one has found out that he/she got betrayed by their partner. The answer of why Thai people can potentially turn quicker to emotionally controlled violation is given by the combination of nationwide low quality school education and social integration of the individual.

what makes me worry is that this crime did not happen in the heat of the moment but was premeditated carried out by the culprit.

The KPG scene of expats is shocked. the murder of Astrid is theme no.1 here at the moment and I guess some farang ladies who are together with a Thai man might review their relationship carefully in order to make sure that emotionally controlled violence won´t be an issue at all. I know more examples of healthy relationships between Thai women and farang men rather than the other way around. last way out for anybody: run away now!

Living a peaceful life on Koh Phangan means to live a low profile life. As a foreign resident you should never give Thais a reason for being jealous about you - never in material things nor in emotional issues. Do not get frequently involved in KPG night life as Haad Rin, the red light girlie bar zone and the Baan Tai road are the places where the most people die weather by accident or being victim of violence. it makes me very sad that Astrids attempts to get involved into Thai culture and society has cost her life.

My condolences to her family and friends.

Rest in peace, Astrid

[george]

Update:

Thai man confesses to strangling German woman tourist

SURAT THANI: -- A suspect in murdering a German woman tourist on a tourist-oriented island in the province, famous for its full moon parties, confessed to committing the crime, according to a senior police officer.

Pol. Lt-Gen. Santarn Chayanon, Commissioner of Provincial Police Region 8, on Monday announced the arrest of 29-year-old Tiwat Kasemchoke, a Thai male who confessed to killing the 45-year-old German victim on Phangan Island.

Mr. Tiwat, a tattoo artist, admitted that he had strangled Ms. Anstril An Anssad Chavaner to death on Sunday.

According to the suspect, his motive behind the murder was his fury after the victim, whom he said had a close relationship with Mr. Tiwat for over a year, often felt jealous when he talked to other female tourists.

He said he regretted his wrongdoing and apologised to Phangan residents that his action tarnished the image of this tourist island.

Phangan Island has a reputation as a paradise for backpackers, travellers and tourists who love the so-called full moon party held on the beach every month.

-- TNA 2009-01-13

[george]

Thai tattoo artists faces pre-mediated murder charge over German tourist's killing

Surat Thani: -- Police have pressed a pre-mediated murder charge against a Thai man, who strangled a female foreigner on Ko Phangan Saturday night.

Self-confessed murderer Tiwat Kasemchoke is now in police detention.

"This is a blatant crime that hurts Thailand's image," Police superintendent Colonel Charoon Uchuparp said Tuesday.

He heads the Ko Phangan Police Station.

Tiwat, a tattoo artist, apologised to Ko Phangan locals and other people for damaging Thailand's reputation.

"I am ready to face the consequences of my own actions," he said.

Tiwat has already confessed that he killed Astrid Al-Assaad Schachmer on a beach because he did not want her to continue dangling around him.

The German tourist had stayed on Koh Phangan an island famous for full moon parties since December 10 last year.

-- The Nation 2009-01-13

[Boo]

Hmm, makes an apology to the KPG people but no mention of remorse for the murder or apology to his victims family. F**ked up.

[Stephen Cleary]

Amazing how quickly the cops in Thailand can bring someone to justice so quickly if they actually try. Incredibly swift catch and confession.

If the killer were a cop he could simply have said he accidently strangled her - did it out of anger, in self-defense and he would have gotten bail..... for a year or so, before finally having the case dropped due to lack of evidence.

[sbk]

According to the Thai language papers, he is a native of Phuket, not Koh Phangan, so not sure why he'd be apologizing to a community he has no involvement with? I attend a fair number of local (and by local I mean native Koh Phangan people) events, from Thong Sala to Hadrin and can't say that I have ever met this guy or seen him before, same goes for my husband, and our staff (all local people).

Regardless, I do hope that this confession is a real one and not forced as this has been known to happen. I know alot of the women in Thong Sala were quite concerned with the fact that a murderer was wandering around loose.

[sbk]

Tattoo artist charged with premediated murder

By By Suwannee Bantisak

The Nation

Surat Thani

Published on January 14, 2009

Tattoo artist charged with premediated murder

Police have pressed a charge of premeditated murder against a Thai man following the strangulation a female foreigner on Ko Pha-ngan on Saturday night.

Tiwat Kasempok ,whom police say has confessed to the killing, is now in police detention.

"This is a blatant crime that hurts Thailand's image," Police Superintendent Colonel Charoon Uchuparp said yesterday. He heads the Ko Pha-ngan police station.

Charoon said Tiwat, a tattoo artist, apologised to Ko Pha-ngan locals and other people for damaging Thailand's reputation. "I am ready to face the consequences of my own actions," he reportedly said.

Charoon said Tiwat had confessed to the killing of Astrid Al-Assaad Schachmer on a beach because he did not want her to continue hanging around him.

The German tourist had stayed on Koh Pha-ngan - an island famous for full moon parties - since December 10 last year.

Tiwat told police the woman tried to start a romantic relationship with him and often threw a jealous rage when seeing him with other women.

"I had told her several times that I've had no romantic interest in her but she did not listen," he said, "Her persistency made me annoyed and angry".

Tiwat is divorced with two young children, now living with their paternal grandparents in Phuket.

The victim was also a divorcee. Her ex-husband is a tattoo artist in Germany.

According to police, Tiwat said he felt so restless after killing the German woman that he phoned his mother to talk about it.

Provincial Police Region 8 commissioner Lt General Santharn Chayanont said yesterday additional safety measures must be introduced to the island.

"There should be more patrols in secluded spots after 7pm," he said, "We have to ensure that tourists are safe".

Source: The Nation

[mssabai]

Violence is a much bigger part of many thai people's lives than it is farangs people's. It is only when these two cultures mix that farangs see the extent of it...much of it is kept from weterner's eyes...but it is there all the same. Phangan is not the most violent place in Thailand by a long stretch, it is just one of the only places where there an awful lot of thais and foreigners mixing, therefore the violence is more evident to the western media. There is a large young population of thai men, but these men are not any different to thai men from anywhere else.

This guy is a one off though...this is not the same as a drunken bar brawl. Just because there are fights on Koh Phangan etc, doesn't mean that everyone is capable of something like this. There are fights and 'shows of power' in very city in the UK on saturday night but it doesn't mean that all these men are also women murderers. I come from a very smart city in England where a rapist terrorised the city for 10 years. That did not mean that all the residents of my city were rapists.

[DonGato]

How sad...

Like if Thailand's tourism image wasn't hurt bad enough...

[AceofproZ]

It is very saddening to hear this, and worrying

There is no reason for them to do this, tourists are the bread and butter of Surat Thani.

I have planned to drive to Koh Pha Ngan/ Koh Samui from Singapore but im now thinking about it as the safety issue concerns me :X

[Scott]

Personally, I would be more scared of the drive than the island.

[msdt]

So very sad..

Condolances to her family and friends.

I do hope they find the killer/killers but that is perhaps to much to ask for..

When they find the killers, how often is it in fact the real killer and not just someone they get to admit to a crime they did not do?

Just to make it look good, i mean and for the tourists to see that they actually can find criminals.

Girlx:

Did they really say "mai pen rai" to a crime like the one you mentioned about your friends mother?????

That is so sick!

Then, what does it take to make them do their job properly?

Is it lack of incompetence and knowledge or lack of resources??

Honestly, I would really like to know.

I remember when we lived in Lamai a few years back. There was a man being killed at a hotel nearby.

So many people was running in and out of that hotelroom touching his body, his things, the glass doors, etc... so when the forensics finally came from Suratthani all evidence were ruined. They said it was suicide but everyone knows that he could not have comitted suicide by strangeling himself (unless he hung himself which they say he didn´t) and then put a seveneleven plastic bag over your head afterwards. The cleaning lady found him laying on the bed with a plastic bag on his head.

The autonom nervalsystem just doesn´t work like that that is basic biology for heavens sake!

So weird..

Take care.

/comehome

My friend and boss Samm pitts was murdered a few years ago on Koh phagan. I dont even think there was an investigation. Myself and a few other instructors got questioned but that was it. we never really did find out what happened. I left the island a short while after that having spent 3 years there. Such a dodgy place, even if you do have your wits about you.

[msdt]

I am a Koh Phangan resident since 5 years and I can say that the mentality between southern Thais and Thais living in Central Thailand and in the North is different. The southern mentality is - as it is in any other country the same on this planet - much more controlled by emotions. I believe this is a result of the individual amount of sun which each single region receives. In addition Thai mentality is an explosive mixture which is fundamentally based on personal pride and honor. Why is Thai mentality an explosive mixture? Because of the "mai bock" thing. "Don´t speak! Particularly: Don´t speak bad! Do not criticize!" Means do not to bother anybody with your negative personal issues. Thus: swallow it and thats what the younger generations have to do and learned to do. By a certain time after smiling and bewaring face all the time inner pressure needs ventilation and then a small nuisance - whatever it could be - is enough that somewhere someones fuses plug off and someone else gets seriously injured or killed - mostly in the heat of the moment.

This also happens in the western world but not at a comparable ratio as western education does not allow us easily to attack one physically out of emotional hurt. The emotional barrier for feeling ready to do comparable things like what happened here again is in Thailand lower than in the western world. In fact Thailand is under the top ten countries with the highest murder rate in the world. I believe that a big number of killings in Thailand are caused by emotional rejection, unanswered emotions or one has found out that he/she got betrayed by their partner. The answer of why Thai people can potentially turn quicker to emotionally controlled violation is given by the combination of nationwide low quality school education and social integration of the individual.

what makes me worry is that this crime did not happen in the heat of the moment but was premeditated carried out by the culprit.

The KPG scene of expats is shocked. the murder of Astrid is theme no.1 here at the moment and I guess some farang ladies who are together with a Thai man might review their relationship carefully in order to make sure that emotionally controlled violence won´t be an issue at all. I know more examples of healthy relationships between Thai women and farang men rather than the other way around. last way out for anybody: run away now!

Living a peaceful life on Koh Phangan means to live a low profile life. As a foreign resident you should never give Thais a reason for being jealous about you - never in material things nor in emotional issues. Do not get frequently involved in KPG night life as Haad Rin, the red light girlie bar zone and the Baan Tai road are the places where the most people die weather by accident or being victim of violence. it makes me very sad that Astrids attempts to get involved into Thai culture and society has cost her life.

My condolences to her family and friends.

Rest in peace, Astrid

I cant agree with you more. Keep a low profile and smile alot. Stay away from Drop In Bar and full moon parties.

[Johpa]

I believe this is a result of the individual amount of sun which each single region receives. In addition Thai mentality is an explosive mixture which is fundamentally based on personal pride and honor. Why is Thai mentality an explosive mixture? Because of the "mai bock" thing. "Don´t speak! Particularly: Don´t speak bad! Do not criticize!" Means do not to bother anybody with your negative personal issues. Thus: swallow it and thats what the younger generations have to do and learned to do.

Are you Egyptian and thus believe that the ancient sun god Ra controls our destiny?

Sad as this tragedy is to the family and friends of the deceased, so too is the sad state of understanding of Thai culture here by many of the posters.

The "mai bock thing"?!????

Seriously, you folks need to get a better grasp of both Thai culture and the Thai language. May I suggest becoming less lazy and read some of the more penetrating analysis on the subject from authors such as Niels Muldar and less on the tourist oriented literature such as the Mai Pen Rai series.

[girlx]

really... why don't you enlighten us all with your interpretation of thai culture and language then?

[Jimjim]

According to the Thai language papers, he is a native of Phuket, not Koh Phangan, so not sure why he'd be apologizing to a community he has no involvement with?

So, if you live somewhere you cannot have any involvement with the community because you are not originally from there? You cannot feel a part of a community that you were not born into just because you happened to move there and not be born there? I think you get the picture. Use that thing behind your eyes.

[ballpoint]

I believe this is a result of the individual amount of sun which each single region receives. In addition Thai mentality is an explosive mixture which is fundamentally based on personal pride and honor. Why is Thai mentality an explosive mixture? Because of the "mai bock" thing. "Don´t speak! Particularly: Don´t speak bad! Do not criticize!" Means do not to bother anybody with your negative personal issues. Thus: swallow it and thats what the younger generations have to do and learned to do.

Are you Egyptian and thus believe that the ancient sun god Ra controls our destiny?

Sad as this tragedy is to the family and friends of the deceased, so too is the sad state of understanding of Thai culture here by many of the posters.

The "mai bock thing"?!????

Seriously, you folks need to get a better grasp of both Thai culture and the Thai language. May I suggest becoming less lazy and read some of the more penetrating analysis on the subject from authors such as Niels Muldar and less on the tourist oriented literature such as the Mai Pen Rai series.

Stop being lazy and read a book on Thai culture written by a Farang? How about actually taking the time to learn to speak and read Thai and then going out and making your own conclusions?

[sbk]

According to the Thai language papers, he is a native of Phuket, not Koh Phangan, so not sure why he'd be apologizing to a community he has no involvement with?

So, if you live somewhere you cannot have any involvement with the community because you are not originally from there? You cannot feel a part of a community that you were not born into just because you happened to move there and not be born there? I think you get the picture. Use that thing behind your eyes.

Selective reading is a wonderful thing isn't it? Did you actually read the rest of my post?

Shall I reiterate then, to make it clearer? I am involved in the local community, as is my husband and my staff. And none of us recall ever seeing him at any local community events.

[wayfarer108]

i know other KPG expats tend to disagree, but this mentality among a lot of the Thais there is nothing new.

I am not a resident of Ko Phangan so I don't have much insight into the local culture (I have only visited there once, a few years ago). However, speaking for Thais in general, I have known a lot of Thai people, and even lived with some of them for several months at a time. Obviously, this is not the same as living with people for years, but I feel like I got a fairly good sense for the temperament of the people around me. I have never once herd any of them make death threats. I have seen them get into heated arguments where feelings were hurt, but it didn't escalate to violence. I am aware that there are dangerous people in Thailand, as there are in every country. But I did not get the feeling that ordinary Thai people were dangerous.

As for the mentality of Thais thinking that this murder case is nothing new, I would say that while many of them may be resigned to accepting it as just the way things are in Thailand, they don't condone it. They are just aware that the police usually don't have the motivation or ability to do anything to effectively deter it (criminals in any country will take advantage of a situation where there is poor law enforcement). The majority of the people that I lived near seemed like normal folks who are not malicious.

I live in the US, and there are plenty of very dangerous places here that I would never go, as well as violent and dangerous people. But because I have lived here for long enough to know where to avoid and how to recognize the signs of stereotypically dangerous people, I feel safe living here. However, when I have friends visiting from overseas, I am very aware that they don't have this natural sense for how to recognize dangerous places in the US, so I would never think to just let them out on their own before they know how to stay safe.

I think that there are similarities in Thailand with respect to expats who live in Thailand. We as relative newcomers don't always have a natural sense for the danger signs in Thai society, the way Thais do. So some foreigners find themselves in dangerous situations in Thailand more often than they would back home. This obviously does not justify any crimes that they may may fall victim to, but it may explain the increased incidence of them among otherwise street-savvy people.

Well said. Thais are no more liable to commit murder than any other nationality. It seems whenever there is a widely publicised murder or other crime reported in Thailand, redneck expats are quick to see it as 'typical Thai'. Rather typical <deleted> uttered by the 'superior' farang.

Edited January 21, 2009 by wayfarer108

[ballpoint]

Why is it that on the tee-shirt stealing thread a large number of posters are saying "no way would a swede do that, the confession must have been coerced, even if they did do it they must have been immigrants, not pure Swedes..." Yet a lot of posts on this thread are saying "he confessed therefore he's guilty, execute the murderer, it's what you'd expect from a Thai..." Racism? Lack of understanding? Not wanting to understand? Or just plain ignorance?

[FatherF]

Why is it that on the tee-shirt stealing thread a large number of posters are saying "no way would a swede do that, the confession must have been coerced, even if they did do it they must have been immigrants, not pure Swedes..." Yet a lot of posts on this thread are saying "he confessed therefore he's guilty, execute the murderer, it's what you'd expect from a Thai..." Racism? Lack of understanding? Not wanting to understand? Or just plain ignorance?

I think, possibly all of the above!

FF

[Johpa]

really... why don't you enlighten us all with your interpretation of thai culture and language then?

I did attempt to spread some enlightenment in my post by suggesting one read Mulder's book on Thai culture. Muldar explores issues of power and the concept of "face" in depth, subject that are far too complex for quick postings. Muldar's original edition published back in the early 1980s, was the survival bible for an earlier generation of ex-pats, to which I am connected, and it is having read that book that saved my life when my life was threatened by an upset Thai who I had unknowingly caused to lose face. I would imagine that it is even more important for western women getting involved with Thai men to have such an understanding of how Thais perceive power and face.

As for the language issue, I have never heard of the "mai bok" aspect of Thai culture. To my ear, mai bok is normally associated with the past tense as in "khao mai bok", as in "she didn't say". Now we might be able to argue that Thai culture has aspects of "mai pen rai", or "jai yen", or "kreng jai", or a closer phrase to which the OP was leaning one might argue that Thai culture prefers a stance of "mai phuut dii kwaa". But to my ear and in my experience, talking about a "mai bok" culture sounds to me a Farang speaking bar boy Thai.

[Johpa]

Stop being lazy and read a book on Thai culture written by a Farang? How about actually taking the time to learn to speak and read Thai and then going out and making your own conclusions?

Yes, well after nearly 30 years of speaking and reading Thai and living amongst Thai people both in Thailand and abroad, I have indeed come to my own conclusions which I stated in my post, and that, in my perhaps not quite so humble opinion, is that many posters here do not understand Thai culture very well. And then there are those, such as the poster who believes that exposure to the sun has a direct impact upon cultural behavior thus attempting to perhaps resurrect an earlier form of religious expression that I have a hard time accepting.

[Jimjim]

Just because you never run across him at "community" events, SBK, doesn't mean he wasn't involved in some part in the community. To be involved in that community I don't think it's necessary to have been seen by you, is all I meant. I think we are thinking of different definitions of community. Nevermind.

[animatic]

So he killed her to show he wasn't a bad person??Sounds like he is seriously messed up in the head.Poor woman.

Would be deranged, out of his mind, f_ckhead a proper term?

I still have the gut feeling that there is more to the story...

Sorry for this lady...and her relatives....!

Humiliation = Face = Honor amoungst your circle of friends etc.

~Sounds pretty 'Face' related to me.

Lose of face and add alcohol, with romantic rejection...

is not a good combo with Thai males by most all reports....

RIP Ms Astrid. You deserved better.

[rdsiam]

There is no excuse for killing anybody. RIP Astrid.

What makes me react are certain agressive and vindicative posts here.

Read this news: "A 29 year old Thai woman has killed a 46 year old Farang for continuoulsly humiliating and stalking her"

What is your first reaction? And the second reaction? Didn't you try to find some extenuating circumstances to explain what may have pushed her to this horrible act?

Now, why this 29yo guy could not benefit from extenuating circumstances or at least a bit of understanding as would have the Thai lady in the example above? Because we are in a patriarchic, machistic society maybe? And we want to keep it? Modern civilized society has created over centuries laws that takes into account fair elements in a situation. I wish the court will consider them.

The German Lady had 46 years of, hopefully, a happy and fun life, with no judgment on her activities in Thailand or wherever. The guy, at 29, has now his life ruined forever.

If I pray, I will pray for Astrid, and for the guy. And before this I will pray and act as much as I can that exploitation of wo/man by wo/man stops!