A thai girlfriend

[Mali]

Dear Bud,

Not the woman I would want to date, kind of to Americanized for me. But she has great insight into the kind of lady she once was, and knows Thai culture from the days when she grew up. But Mali things may have changed a little

I am very insulted by your comment that I was too Americanized. FYI, I have always been this way since I was young. When I was in college in Thailand. I was one of many Thai students in the 70’s that demonstrated against the establishments, the corrupted government at that time, our lousy deans at the college, etc…Not only that I participated in the demonstrations, but I also sometimes was the leader of the events. The concept that Thai women are followers and if they show the sign of any intellect then they are not suitable as good mates is repugnant. At any rate, I am not in this site to look for men. I have been married for 27 years with 2 smart daughters. Fortunately, my husband who is extremely smart is confident in himself enough and is not threaten by any capable women

I happened to grow up in a family that taught me that women could be anything if they wanted to. My mom once said “we can even be good fathers if we want too.” We (my sibling and I) were taught to be self-reliance, to walk side by side with our men and if our men fail or considered not as smart in some events, we should be able to lead. My only brother was taught to be a leader and also a caring man.  Her famous quote to us was “even if you have a good husband to take good care of you. He could die before you, then what are you going to do?” My mom happened to be one of many smart Thai women who had started her business from scratch with some help from my dad. By the time she retired at 60 yrs old she was a millionaire. My parents also sent all their children (5 girls and 1 boy) to universities and me to the US for grad school; both of my parents have only 4 yrs schooling. I would say that I have come from a long line of capable female.

Both of my daughters also carry the torch forward: one with has master degree in comp. Sci. and the other with civil engineer and architect combined from top universities in the US. I am sure that our family is not the minority in Thailand. You may not have a chance to meet capable Thai women in the past. But if you are willing to look around, they are not hard to find. They are everywhere, schools, colleges, banks, hospitals, business establishments, etc…I do not know that you just stopped at a bar for a drink and got stuck there. Or you were looking for some pampering that you could not get from women in your country.

I have heard/read from farangs many times that they like Thai women because we were nicer to them than western women. We were sweet, could cook and clean well, listened to the husbands and did not demand much in return. I sometimes wonder if they were talking about wives or maids whom they could have sex with too. I have always thought that I would like to share my life with someone when I marry. It should be like an equal partner. It should not be you cook, clean and sleep with me then I will give you money or let you live in the house with me.

[D80]

Hello Mali,

Just wanna say, don't get too bothered about some comments against you here.  I, too, am a Thai woman.  Like you, I have lived in different countries (including 'the West') and I compete for scholarships and find works that allow me the freedom to do so.  And like you, I have been raised to stand on my own two feet.  Perhaps because of this, some think I have a 'western' background rather than a 'Thai' upbringing while you are seen as 'americanised'.  

I agree with many things that you have said although there are some issues that we may differ in opinion.  It's never ceased to amaze me that when I talk of capable Thai women and what I see as 'ordinary', decent Thai people, some members of the board seem to brush this aside as the 'minority in Thailand'.  This seems to also be the case with relationships.  I and my friends have perfectly good relationships with our partners (Thai and Western) without having the topic of financial security as our starting point.  For some reason, this is also a surprise for some members of the board.  It seems, from many posts here, that a 'typical' relationship with a Thai lady would have to consist of money, sexual promiscuity, dependency and lies.  I am not so green to think that these things don't exist but I don't think they are 'the norm'.

When I read Wolf's reply in this topic, I feel that it is closer to most long-termed Thai relationship I have seen (although the degree of intimacy may vary).  Is that your expereince as well?

As to Eastender,

It is true that culturally/traditionally Thai women are raised to keep their virginity until they marry.  However, from what I have seen, some Thai women may not be too strict with this belief anymore.  Having said that there are quite a few women who still firmly believe in the practice.  A friend of mine has been with her Thai boyfriend for 9 years now.  They do not have sex, just out of their own choice.  They just prefer to do so when they are married.  Many of my friends have boyfriends but do not have sex with them.  Most of them are in their 20s.  It's their choice to have sex or not to have sex (I am only talking about what I have seen).

Casual relationship with sex is possible.  Some friends of mine also choose to have these kinds of relationships.  But I have to give a word of warning here that you make it clear to the lady in question that that is what you want.  Quite often, a Thai woman will sleep with her boyfriend before marriage as a sign of devotion.  For some women, it is even used as an entrapment.  This still happens and you may want to make sure she doesn't get the wrong idea.

I also agree with mrentoul that if you are with a Thai lady in a relationship, communication is the key like in any other relationships.  Make sure you two understand each other what your relationship will involved.  If sex is to be part of the equation and the two of you agree to take part as adults, then I don't see the problem.

I would not want to judge anyone on how they choose to lead their lives sexually as long as they are all consensual adults who know the score and use protection.  But I also don't think women liberation means a woman must have sex when she has a relationship with a man.  Surely, it should mean she is able to choose whether to do so or not.  If she choose not to, then what is the problem?  Why should she be called weird?    ???

[Bud Zumwalt]

???

Mali,

Mali writes:

I have heard/read from farangs many times that they like Thai women because we were nicer to them than western women. We were sweet, could cook and clean well, listened to the husbands and did not demand much in return. I sometimes wonder if they were talking about wives or maids whom they could have sex with too. I have always thought that I would like to share my life with someone when I marry. It should be like an equal partner. It should not be you cook, clean and sleep with me then I will give you money or let you live in the house with me.

Look Mali, it is my opinion that your a really nice lady, actually your ideas are very contemporary and certainly innovated. A born leader for the women's rights movement. I am certain you have been active in America as well, for women here do not earn as much as their male counterparts. I am with you, but please to not consider me one of the stero types you just named in the above paragraph. I want a Thai wife, I am looking extensively at many different ladies before my arrival this time, perhaps one lady meeting me at the airport will be that person, she certainly is more than willing, read my post and see my situation I could use your advice, what I do not want is a maid, I want to help her do everything, Germans look for maid type wivies, I am American. I really do not care if she has a Masters in Phyics or if she has 4 years of schooling. Really I have an MBA among other related graduate degrees because I hated physics and chemistry and consider that too hard for me to understand. I want a Thai wife, who is ready to be my partner in everything, house work shared, if she has children I help with them, I never had any myself, but I would not mind beng a second dad. I can get an American woman, my last wife, second wife was a Dr. who made 6-figures, yes a woman making more than I. She was model type figure, blond and attractive to look at. But very materialistic, mechanical, only loved money. I would respect all aspects of my future Thai mate, treat her and give her equal rights and freedoms as I came from a free country where we can even make jokes about out President Bush on Saturday Night Live, try making a joke about a member of your Royal Family and see what happens. So perhaps who ever this Thai lady is I become very familar with and fnally decide too settle with, she is getting a equal partner and a guy who respects her, loves her and is not a member of the butterfly club, such as most Thai males are.

Bud

[chonabot]

Mali , when people say that Thai Women are more gentle and caring than ( most) of their Western counterparts, please don't see this as an insult.

Sure it's a generalisation and perhaps a tad patronising, but my wife is caring and gentle, more so than any Western lady I have lived with, she is also strong , independant, intelligient and very kind.

This is a trait I feel the modern lady has left behind , the modern man also , I for one am very proud to have a lovely wife , who happens to be from Thailand.

Bud , whatever happens, let us know what happens!

Chonabot

[Dutch Vader]

Dear Mali,

When I am talking about "woman in government" I do not mean woman "working for the government" but actually ministers, or even as prime minister. Or at least, women mayors (municipal executives). Now in Holland we have several female ministers in our cabinet and many female mayors. In Thailand also? I read in a book about Thailand (written by a German expat who lives their for 25 years now, his name is Gunther Ruffert, he is a building engineer): "Der Einfluss der Thai Frau im hauslichen und okonomischen Bereich is immer gross gewesen, aber in Gesellschaft, Religion und Rechtsprechung bleibt ihr ein Platz im Hintergrund". The last part translated: (...) " but in society (so also in government, which is part of society), in religion and in practicing law, her role is still minor". Is this observation from Mr. Ruffert not correct?

Or do you defend your country because (I have read this somewhere else again) "many Thai people are not used to criticism to their country and anything Thai, and can react accordingly when confronted with criticism. So ventilate criticism very carefully, especially if it has to do with the country, the King or Buddhism".

My comments are not ment as negative criticism, I only think it would be a good thing if women had the same opportunities as men, not only in Thailand, but everywhere in the world. So it is not meant as criticism on Thailand.

By the way: I do read the Bangkok post on internet and the printed edition whenever I am in Thailand.

In your answer to Kwiz you stated that you do not need to disguise here as a man, in order to be taken seriously. Are you saying that I am a woman disguising as a man? I can assure you that I am not, really! But probably you will have noticed that by now, as a result of my revelations about my relationship with a Thai former bar girl.

Greetings, DV.

[Dutch Vader]

Chonabot,

I did not slay anybody off, not Bud Zumwalt nor Eastender. When I was cynical in a reply to Bud Zumalt I was referring to YOUR statements, not his (about being woefully inadequate at life and so on; especially that one I thougth was unnecessary insulting and grieving).

I will try to explain my "gem" of information you were referring to:

Firs5: I did not state explicitly that a relationship between a Thai and a non-Thai could not have the same strength as a relationship between people of the same race. Please don't insinuate that this is a racial thing, I am not a racist.

The litlle "gem" of information I give in my first contribution was mainly the result of a bad translation. I wrote "can in no way be equalled to", where it should have been "can not be assessed in the same way" or "is not the same" or something like that. It is time now to confess that this "observation" was not mine, I got it out of a book, written bij - again - a German expat. The name of the book is "wer nicht hoeren will, muss feullen". (translated: "he who will not listen to advice must suffer for it"). This expat interviewed many couples and also Thai girls who did not have a boyfriend at that time. His conclusions were, that many Thai/non Thai couples had a relationship that he would not give the "quality label" : "real relationship". This, because there was poor communication between the 2 partners AND in many cases there was "a hidden agenda" with the Thai girl (who, in the bottom line, was in the relationship merely or primary for financial security). To this add the fact that in interviews he had with Thai girls from middle and upper class the answer to the question: "would you ever consider having a relationship with a farang" was in many cases "are you crazy? I am not a prostitute!", and the conclusion of the author was: "Although in Thai/non Thai relationships the partners are happy in many cases, funilly enough (if you consider the poor communication and the "hidden agendas"), these relationship are in no way the same as a "real" relationship". So in fact he (and I) were referring to only a very small part of the grand scala of different relationships possible, that is, the relationship between a Thai and a farang who don't speak eachothers language (have poor communication) and where the Thai girl is in the relationship primarily for the financial security.

Now I think this must give you the explanation necessary. Without this, indeed, the statement may have been way out of line.

Finally: don't think that my contributions are made with the idea that I think myself an expert on Thailand, Thai culture or Thai women. On the contrary: I still get very confused sometimes with many things my Thai girlfriend says and how she thinks. It is difficult sometimes to understand the Thai way of thinking. Some things maybe even are "to Thai to handle"! I understand that you have been living in Thailand for some 17 years. I have only lived there 1 month in a row and then about 8 times 2 or 3 weeks. But I do have eyes and ears and contemplate about what I see, hear and read.

I still feel awkward sometimes in my own relationship, so maybe the quoting wich you call "gem" was done with the hope that the conclusion of this German author would be proven wrong here, who knows...

[chonabot]

Cheers Dutch! Lets call it a truce.

No offense intended.

Look forward to your next post.

Chonabot

[Dutch Vader]

To Bud Zumwalt and Mali this one..

I agree where Bud says "give me a Thai wife rather than a Western wife, anytime" or something like that. I have the same experience, where Bud writes that with his wife who was a Dr. and earned a 6 figure income, he was not happy. Only loved money, always looking for that bigger house in a better area, and so on. This is what I meant in a former contribution that Western women have forgotten about "the little things, the hapiness these things can bring". They are just way to carreer-minded, way to materialistic, way to "not lovable nomore". Mali, this does not mean I (or, if I understand Bud here), Bud also, want a woman who is like a "maid we also can have sex with". Bud explained this already perfectly. I would like to add: ofcourse it is not about having our diner cooked and our laundry cleaned (I am perfectly able to do this myself, in fact, I still do my laundry myself many times). Must say however that the Thai kitchen is way beyond Dutch (or American) food, so I do prefer my girlfriend cooking, haha! But this is not the heart of the matter: that is, that a Thai wife indeed is more gentle, more sweet, more caring than any Western woman I know. It just gives a man a good and warm feeling if somebody looks after him, cares for him; and that feeling also arises if his wife cooks him a nice meal, rather than throwing him a raw fish, adding: "here, cook it yourself, I am not your maid; I am an emancipated woman with a degree in law and I have to be off to an important meeting now!", like a Western woman would probably do!

My opinion is that Western women have lost it somewhere along the way... they have lost the capability of giving a man the feeling of being really wanted, needed, or appreciated. For sure they have lost in many cases feminity as a whole.

A Thai wife just gives me more a feeling of being really wanted, of making a difference to her. She gives back more warmth and care and makes me feel good. A Western wife is more demanding: as if it is never "good enough". If you work for money, you have to be in the house more, because "equal rights for man and woman" (this should imply then, that a man also has to do the homework and cook, after he has been in the office for 10 hours); if you are at home more, you have to go out more to make more money; if you are gentle and caring, and show your emotions, and do the homework, you are a "pussy"; if you are not gentle and do not show your emotions, and do not the homework, then you are a "macho". It is never OK. With a Thai wife on the other hand, it does seem OK. A Thai wife simply seems to appreciate her husband way more than a Western wife! She still appreciates the man bringing home the cash and is happy with that; she "rewards" him by cooking him a nice meal when he comes home. This does not make her a maid! This simply is one of these "little things" that makes one feel good. It does sound awfully old-fashioned, I know, but I don't care.

Also Western woman don't understand no more that CHOICES have to be made. They want everything at the same time: they want children, but also want a career. So children are not allowed to affect their own career. They want their husbands to make money, but he also has to stay at home to do the homework; and so on and so forth.

This does not mean I don't appreciate a woman who studies and gets a university degree; I admire and respect that. But it is absolutely not necessary to qualify as a loving wife, make a relationship work or be happy together. I for myself don't care if my wife has only 6 years of kindergarten or a degree in physics... I respect her as a human being and am thankful for the happiness she brings!

DV.

[Dutch Vader]

Good idea Chonabot!

I'll drink to that and have one yourself too (a "Dutch treat" haha!).

[tutsiwarrior]

Whew...what incredibly long winded postings. My observation is that liaisons with former prostitutes are not advised and that falang men should expect a long and chaste courtship with a 'respectable' Thai woman in order to be happy when married. What bullshit. Most of the falangs that I know met their wives in bars and have perfectly happy marriages. It is a business proposition...I take you away from your family so that your income is missed but I will provide that to them. In return, you look after me. Adjustments are made here and there for additions to the family core group but everybody remains happy.

In my case I was able to buy a property that got them out of the tin shack over a rice paddy and into a nice house in town...further indication to my wife that I am interested in the family's general welfare and, although I can't say that my wife loves me in the western romantic sense she thinks that I am a nice man and worthy of affection and trust.

So...if you like holding hands and etc in order to demonstrate that your wife is virtuous then good for you. I'll bet that you won't get from your wife what I get from mine...all the way around...

regards

[Bud Zumwalt]

To Dutch,

I agree with Dutch, he is making more sense that anyone on this post to date. That part about a maid was just the words I took from Mali, I did not now how to box it, so I did a cut and paste. No way I think of these ladies as maids, ever. I do not want her to be subservent to me in any way shape or form. I would bend over backwards to show her the respect she deserves for being a good wife. If you love her and are grateful for all she does it is only fair. I guest part of it is some of these lovely ladies really need some help, the Thai system has left them behind, the opportunities I had as an American, not even from a rich family were just never there for them. Their marriages to a Thai are not really binding and they usually recover nothing when he leaves to make babies with another wife, which by the way happens all the time and is part of the Thai culture Mali does not talk about.

Fact is many of us do not care what they were doing to survive, the red light districts are full of nice ladies who had to do what they had to do to feed their kids and put food in their tummies, so you know what Mali maybe you need a reality check. The fact is us farangs are really feed up with the Western ladies, and we actually do respect and love Thai ladies.

To tutsiwarrior,

Well put, both you and Dutch got more sense than a Thai Americanized lady, living in America most of her life, married for so long she has lost complete touch with the reality of how men act or what they expect from ladies. But I will say Mali is a go getter, she is a leader, but so wasn't my former Dr. wife who was certainly a loser when it came to what most I needed out of life, a woman who is not demanding, not materialistically pushing her man beyond his capabilities, not ever there for him, life is too short to live it that way. Dutch knows that, so does tutsiwarrior, I Bud have realized it as well, so you know what if the woman I meet at the airport turns out to be a bar girl, but honest and caring and not giving me a scam, then she now has achieved financial stablity and found a farang as a life partner.

Bud

[kwiz117]

Hi Mali

This reply relates to your below comments.

What is there to think about a woman like me who got a scholarship to study Physics in the US? I was just a regular science teacher who was lucky enough to snag a non-competitive scholarship to study Physics in a small US university. If you think there is anything wrong or amoral about it, I would welcome any comment on this topic.

Below, is the full quote that you should have commented on.

You also have mentioned that Thai society think a girl married to a falang is a former prostitute.

Wonder what they think about Thai Man going into Massage Parlors in Thailand?

Also read the topic of “Human trafficking” in this forum. Now wonder what Thai people think about girls like “Mali” working or studying in USA.

What do you think about Thai Girls live in Falang Land?

You have interpritted differently by taking few sentences from a reply I have written to you and Dutch thinking that both of you are same.

Why I wrote above is due to the below comments from Dutch?

This I took from the original reply from Dutch.

That is, because Thai society is far more divided in social classes than, for instance, Dutch or English society; and woman from the middle-class and up (anybody with a somewhat decent job is considered middle-class) will never dream of getting involved with a farang. They would immediately be labeled prostitute by their fellow country-woman.

So, I just asked how Thai people think about a LADY like you working in another country.

If you like to comment on this then,

Without complicate things, just express your thinking of above comments. I am still interested to know.

I never asked about your profile, like the way you have stated in your reply to me. Please read the replies carefully before jumping into conclusions.

[Butterfly]

Dear Butterfly,

Yes, I did read those posts that I replied to at least twice. As I said before, I am offering a woman point of view. Sometimes when men posted their opinions here, they may not aware what effect they have on female readers. Now, Please don't tell me that I am overly sensitive. I have hoped that some of the male readers might welcome a different point of view from an old educated Thai woman who has lived in both Eastern and Western societies successfully.

I think the issue here is a problem of generation. You might be part of an older generation and some things were just "expected". I respect that. However, I think the younger generation of women in Thailand are much more westernized than this (not only bar girls) and are "expected" to sleep with boyfriends before they get married. I have yet to meet a "virgin" in Bangkok and the "sex" stories I have heard between young students are nothing short from what happens in Nana with the girls there. A lot of "good" girls have a number of boyfriends before they get married, and many do "butterfly" with multiple lovers. Nothing wrong with that. I am not even going to mention how those Thai girls coming to the West for studying act with men when they go to the schools there. Unbelievable. Even the farangs girls can't compete with so much appetite for sex.

Come on, wake up, we are in 2003

[D80]

I think some of the 'observations' of the Thai society has been pretty extreme.... exaggerated... with grey areas ignored...if I may say so....

I find most books aren't very accurate anyway, so I personally wouldn't strictly go by them.  It is true that some provide very interesting insight to Thai society.  I read these types of books with interest as they sometimes look at my country from different angles.  I don't have a problem with the criticisms as long as it is well-informed.  Unfortunately, I find that most authors seem to focus on only certain groups of Thai people.  Many seem to have misunderstood the culture and some take only the extreme view in the society and believe that to be the norm.    

It's true that Thai society is class based.  And it is true that some people in Thailand still think only prostitutes marry foreigners.  But that's not to say most people in Thailand will have such attitude.  Years and years ago when the only contact women may have with foreigners is through a bar, maybe.  But this has changed!  I have friends from the middle and upper classes and quite a few of them are still involved with foreigners without fear of being labled 'prostitutes' (NB: please don't write to me & ask to be introduced to them, I'm not a dating agency   ).  True, some imbaciles may still cling to such belief.  But that is not the norm that I find today.

Thai women today aren't also just classed as 'prostitutes' or 'virgins'.  So, it's not my intention to imply that to pursue a relationship with a Thai woman one would either have to choose the prostitutes in order to include physical intimacy or endure long courtship ritual with the 'virgin' (so-called 'good girl').  It is my intention to point out that some Thai women are still very strict with their traditional belief including not having sex before marriage while some may not.  From what I have read here it seems most people think the 'no sex before marriage' deal has all died out.  This is simply not the case!  Read any Thai message boards and you will see different attitudes to the subject (try pantip.com if you can read Thai).  This is why communication is very important between the couples.  :cool:

I don't think anyone was trying to slag off the bar girls (maybe I have missed something).  I think it is fair to point out that many foreigners come to Thailand for the nightlife (I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that) and then only see Thailand through that experience.  And like anything else, the negative experience has always been given a louder voice.  I have to admit I do get fed up sometimes when an ignorant foreigner (claiming to be an expert on Thailand) ask my husband (and never directly to me) which nightlife extablishment he's met me and whether I speak English and whether my family ask for much dowry etc etc.  Then more often than not he will proceed to bitch about how all Thai women are liars and a rip off, only ever interested in money since the last girl he met in such and such bar dares to take his money and sleep with someone else (although she is working as a prostitute and this is what she does).  All this is done while I am present.  Usually, I then have to stop my hubby from doing anything stupid to shut the guy up (or he has to stop me! hahah!)!  We have the misfortune to experience this over and over again (-this is not the norm though-most people are quite pleasant) and I wish people like these would bother to find out more about Thai society before they sprout some ill-informed criticisms.   ???

When I write about Thai women on this board, I just want to explain the sort of traditional (I'm not judging whether this is good or bad) upbringing a woman outside the bar scene may have and the sort of things expected from her family since this seems to be the subject I've been asked the most.  I only write what I have seen/experienced while fully aware other views exist and pointed this out everytime.  I am sure there are nice women working in bars as well.  However, at the same time, I can see why a relationship may be difficult to develop in a bar scene.  I think Mali was only trying to explain what she has experienced too, some of which differ from what I have seen myself... (BTW, I'm not trying to protect her-I'm sure she's capable of doing so herself.  But I really do think that she only meant to pass on what she's seen).

In my opinion, if some western men want to specifically find a Thai wife believing that Thai women are 'better' than the western ones in certain respects, then nobody's stopping them.  It's probably in their best interest to proceed with care and really learn about the ladies as individuals.  I personally wouldn't like it very much if my husband specifically set out to find a Thai wife and then pick me largely because I am Thai (and thus allegedly would have such characteristics described by many here).  I don't really agree with most criticisms towards the Western women either.... (but hey, what do I know, right?)  To be honest, I do feel a bit patronised, reading some of the comments.  But that is just my opinion and feelings and it is not meant to insult anybody in anyway.  I just have a different view to these sorts of things.

As I have said before, each to his own.   ::  And good luck to all of you searching for 'the one'.

[Mali]

Butterfly,

You might be part of an older generation and some things were just "expected"

Please stop trying to figure it out why I have different opinions from some of the men here. Please don't try to prove that I am wrong or out dated. I am 54 yrs old and still kicking. I had taught at both Thai university and College in the US for years. I am now running a small business. I go back to Thailand regularly. I read online Thai newspapers and magazines everyday. I also read Thai books. All my families are still in Thailand and they live in various part of the country. I have a very close communication with them that include young nieces and nephews. I have also a number of college friends that I write to or visits regularly there. I also have been married to a nice, smart and very progressive American for 27 yrs. We hope to take an early retirement to Thailand, taking advantage of the rate of exchange between the baht and $.  I also have a lot of friends (Asian/Caucasian couples) in the US. Admittedly that most of my Asian females with Caucasian males are more or less have advance degree like me. However, I do meet quite a few of Thai women who marry to GIs during the Vietnam War since my city has 3-4 US military bases. I also have worked with many American women and some of them become close friends of mine. I guess I am well informed enough to have some opinions of my own. All I want to accomplish in this column is to share some ideas and different points of view. I realize that I sometimes got carried away when I saw some overly generalizations or what I considered as a put down about Thailand in general.

. I have yet to meet a "virgin" in Bangkok and the "sex" stories I have heard between young students are nothing short from what happens in Nana with the girls there

I do not know where your circle of traveling is. For one to say NEVER in this case is not really scientifically prudent. Thailand has about 32 millions female and I would guess that about 1/3 can be sexually active. You may need a larger pool of samples here. Or you may have to narrow your topic to a specific area like in the soi where you live...or between soi cowboy and., or in the radius of so and so kilometers from you live, you have not met a single virgin yet. Keep trying I am sure you will come up with some interesting results eventually

[Mali]

kwiz117

I stand firm to my previous answer. I did not see any connection between Thai men went to massage parlors and me living, working or studying in the US. Either my reading skill is not good enough to understand your post or you might have to elaborate what you are trying to say. I have never worried that anyone labels me anything. I always know who I am. I had walked with my husband in Bangkok in the 80’s and got dirty look from some Thais. So if some uninformed people wanted to judge you and did not even know who you were. Why would you care?

What Thais think about a LADY like me working in the US? I do not know what they are thinking since I cannot read their minds. But judging from what they are saying to my families and to me in person, They are pretty proud of me as their native daughter who has made it here in the farang land.

[Mali]

DB80

Yeah!!!! Right on.

[Mali]

tutsworior

Please don’t get it all wrong. We are not comparing between two groups of women (bar women and non-bar women) whether which group is better wives or would have happier marriages. It would be unfair to pitch women against each other. Bar women or not have the same right in pursuing  happy marriages. What is a marriage? For some it is a business proposal as you suggested. For some is love at first sight. For some it could be mutual admirations between two people who would like to spend their lives and to grow old together. I am sure there are million reasons why people get marriage. If we could use American statistics, it would tell you that over 50% of the first marriage fail. Furthermore, sixty percents of the second time fail as well. I have not heard about the third time around yet. We should suspect that some of those reasons are not good enough to keep marriages together. As a woman, I would hope that my husband married me because he loves me and that he hopes that I would be able to walk with him side by side most of the time and ahead of him or behind him some of the time. I hope that I will be able to give or provide for the family without hurting his ego and to take what’s given with great joy.

A lot of women in the world not just Thailand marry for security reason: from Bush people in Africa thru Muslim society to curtain groups of people in America.  A lot may have to do with the concept that women are commodities of the families not as individuals. They always belong to someone: their parents when they are young, their husbands when they marry. They can be traded, sold to the highest bidders in some societies, which Thailand is sadly included. As some of you may have read about some of those bar women were sold to the pimps when they were as young as 13.

I would not be surprise if the bottom line were the power or the ability to earn money for a living. Only when women can earn enough to support themselves and their families like their male counterparts, then they shall be totally liberated. Thus, they do not need to wait for the knights on white horses to rescue them. In other words, I would say that most women would rather be the significant others than the receivers. That might be just me. Who knows?

Isn’t it funny? What women think that they are  being librated and earning their freedom. Men on the other hand think that women are no long care about them. I still remember when I was in high school in Bangkok. I went to listen to Dr. Boonluer talked about the roles of female in Thai society. It was the first time in my life then to be made aware of that Thai women are holding short end of the sticks. She said, in the past Thai women stayed home after they got married. They would take care of the house and family members, cooked and cleaned; while the husbands earned money for the families. Now a day, women worked outside the house to earn a living like their husbands then came home to cook and clean, while the men were drinking or reading newspapers waiting for the food to be served. There has been a slowly changed in this situation since then. Some men now a day do share housework and help raising kids. Furthermore, thanks to the ready-made food at the beginning of many of the large Sois, some women do get relieves.

I think American women might be in the same boat as Thai women then. However, they are more fortunate. Since some of them are really self-sufficient, they no longer have to work overly hard, meaning earn a living by working fulltime and do more share of housework as well. Unfortunately, this did not go down very well with some men. Hence, this might me one of the reasons why the divorce rate in the US is rising.

[Mali]

Bud

Well put, both you and Dutch got more sense than a Thai Americanized lady, living in America most of her life, married for so long she has lost complete touch with the reality of how men act or what they expect from ladies. But I will say Mali is a go getter, she is a leader, but so wasn't my former Dr. wife who was certainly a loser when it came to what most I needed out of life, a woman who is not demanding, not materialistically pushing her man beyond his capabilities, not ever there for him, life is too short to live it that way.

Wow, Bud, since when that one manages to stay marriage for 27 is considered disadvantage.Both my hudband and I can guarantee you that it has not been an easy task. We have had our ups and downs like many other couples. But, I think there is enough juice left between us to last another 20 years at least. I like to quote the real estate people that there are 3 things you have to consider when you are looking for a house: location, location, and location.For the marriage, IMO are: communication, communication and communication.

Shouldn't having a chance to live in other foreign lands be enrichment to one life? Now I can really say that I am understand each society to a certain degree.

I have read that some men might have hard time living with their wives who either are smarter or earning more incomes than them. Then they turn their inferiority to anger toward their surroundings including their wives. I sometimes wonder that intellectually some men may like to be with smart women who can support themselves so they do not have to carry the burden alone; but emotionally some may like to be with someone who care for them or make them feel that they are the leader there. Then when they try to have both of their expectations met in one woman, they might find that it is almost impossible.

From a woman perspective, we are just like men. We are not superman. We cannot be everything. We cannot be good doctors, lawyers, construction workers, or teachers and great chefs, nurses, psychologists at the same time. We do have our limitations. If we work outside the house, we have to deal with all the stress just like men. We have our fetish just like men. Men may want a sporty car, nice computers or top of the line home entertainment system; women may want a nice big house, fancy furniture, fancy kitchen and Lenox dishes. I guess you get the picture.

[Alberta]

Hi Kwiz117.

Well, this discussion is going the wrong way now really. First: I do not know Mali at all. And I don't understand what you mean with "suspicious" about "my profile".

Dutch:  Kwiz117 sees a conspiracy behind every well written, logically argued point. You are lucky you are not an American or it would be worse. Thanks for the well written and very informative post. I think you have captured the essense of relationships with Thai ladies. I notice that most of these ladies are much more subdued in their interactions with their foreign boyfriends when they are back in their country homes. Its a different world out there in the countryside and in the uppers classes of Thailand.

[Alberta]

I have yet to meet a "virgin" in Bangkok

One should not have to say that the implication that there are no virgin women in Bangkok because you have never met one is ludicrous.  I venture to say that you never will either!

[kwiz117]

kwiz117

I stand firm to my previous answer. I did not see any connection between Thai men went to massage parlors and me living, working or studying in the US. Either my reading skill is not good enough to understand your post or you might have to elaborate what you are trying to say. I have never worried that anyone labels me anything. I always know who I am. I had walked with my husband in Bangkok in the 80’s and got dirty look from some Thais. So if some uninformed people wanted to judge you and did not even know who you were. Why would you care?

What Thais think about a LADY like me working in the US? I do not know what they are thinking since I cannot read their minds. But judging from what they are saying to my families and to me in person, They are pretty proud of me as their native daughter who has made it here in the farang land.

Mali,

Please read my post again.

I do not want to take your personal life into this forum. [ I did not expect you to write it either]

What other people think about you is not a concern for you as well as for me. I agree 100%.

But you have generalized and expressed your personal opinion about Thai Girls, Bar Girls, Virgins in many of your replies under this topic. Do you agree?

Taking a very similar line of thinking and a flow of writing, that Dutch Guy has defined the Girls in Thailand in many different ways. So I asked from the Dutch Guy, what others think about Thai girls [like you] living and working in other countries?. Why I asked this is, he has forgotten to include that segment into his classification. Hope it is clear to you.

The mistake I did was, I included you as an example to make my question more clear to the DUTCH GUY. So lets wait until this Dutch Guy comes into this forum again and answer this question.

I still can not understand how that sentence gave any meaning to your personal life. One thing I have noted from your replies is, you have come to many conclusions without properly reading the replies others written to you. I may be not getting the meaning of what others have replied to you.

Reading your replies, I get the impression of "clashes of ideas of 2 Generations" here.

By closely associating with your nieces in Thailand or having contacts with many of your Thai Friends will not help you to understand what the young girls think and do in Thailand.

Let me put down on what basis I am saying this.

I am 28 Yrs and my GF is 23 Yrs studying in a University. I get all fresh news about her friends and also they talk about relationships with guys. Actually we have helped many of them to translate the emails they get etc..

I am also from a Buddhist Country and belongs to Asia. First, I got really supprised to see the way many girls think. I use the word many here to exclude the few Thai Girls and Ladies. But it is the actual situation here. I am not sure outside Bangkok. But inside Bangkok, it is true.

Some university girls always look out for a falang guys to hang out with for studies or to buy a new mobile phone etc. One university lecturer have said during an English Language class “The easiest way to learn English is to find a falang boyfriend”. May be he was joking. But the meaning behind that statement is actually happening in Bangkok.

Some replies say that “They have not met any Virgins” in Thailand. I also think this could be true. Reason is, whenever a girl comes and speak with a falang, with some other intention in mind, then the chances of them being not virgins could be true.

Let’s forget about virgins and falang for a while.

Have you ever been to Ramkambahang Soi 24. Closer to ABAC and Ramkamphang University. Have you seen the number of young Thai Boys and Girls living together?  This place is a just one example.

I have seen this around many Universities in Bangkok, including in one Apartment we stayed. So that is the culture in Thailand now.

I think number of falang comes into this is very negligible compared to Thai boys and Girls living together.  This is not prostitution, bar girl business etc.  May be they are living together for love or lust. I do not know. ALSO I DO NOT CARE AS WE ALSO LIVE TOGETHER IN THAILAND.    

But from what I have gathered after reading your replies, living together is also not acceptable in Thai Culture as much as prostitution, bar girls, sex shows and all other stuff happening around. Actually it is not only in Thailand, even in other Asian Countries, living together is still not acceptable.

Finally I would like to tell you by giving all due respect to your valuable thoughts, opinions and replies, what you have written here are little far from the reality.

[kwiz117]

deleted by myself..

[Bud Zumwalt]

???

To: Mali,

I think you are really nice lady, and 54 is not old considering that Asian women never age as fast as American ladies. You must still stand out as a beautiful lady, your husband must be very fortunate to have you considering what same aged American ladies look like. Certainly your well educated and well shown. I think telling us about your background is important, it is your signature, knowing ones history or profession is important in any discussion. The person putting you down for it told us his own age group and that he and his Thai girl friend were living together and college students, even what area in Bangkok, wow what a hipocrat he was. But I got to agree with him that your prespective is off, the reason is your background and generation. I am your generation but single and not in aggreement some of your views. Even single Thai ladies in their 40s think casual sex is part of what happens on a date or between two adults with chemistry. Even talked about over the email, so really Mali try to take it from the horses mouth, there are few virgins left in Thailand over the age of .. well young. The Thai ladies are not that much different from the American generations, that is one part of both societies that is almost equally the same. Sometimes just the fact that I am American and western may create a fantasy for an Asian Lady, vice versa I am crazy about them.

I have real experience with women being sold into prostitution in South Korea, you see for one year I was the US Army Captain that handled all Civil Affairs between the Korean Government and the US Army. My biggest job was the night clubs, thus 400 night clubs and over 12.000 prostitutes. I had the power to put them off limits to American GIsif the STD rate was too high at any club, if this happened they were out of business, maybe for a month, maybe forever, depending on my recommendation too the Commanding General Officer. Thus my time was spent visiting clubs, eating with the owners and yes having lots of experience with the ladies personally. I understood them, I made love with them and even better I got to know them as human beings.

Bud

PS: You all my post on marriage via email is really getting good so please Mali come over .. even an unrealistic imput would help ..

[TizMe]

More examples here of two week tourists explaining to a Thai their expert knowledge of Thailand.

Bud, I think 3 visits to Thailand and emails from how many Thai girls wanting to marry you doesn't make you an authority.

I am much more inclined to think that someone that was born into the culture would have a much better idea, even if she doesn't still live in Thailand.

You must still stand out as a beautiful lady, your husband must be very fortunate to have you considering what same aged American ladies look like.

Don't you find this remark a bit patronising? You have absolutely no idea what she looks like. She may well be beautiful, but she may not. Either way, it is unimportant, but just another example of you providing information that you have no idea about.

[taxexile]

even an unrealistic imput would help

how?

[chonabot]

Kwiz makes me laugh with his posts , he accuses people of conspiracy ( a woman pretending to be 2 people , or a man ( Mali,DV)  and when they give a reason behind their philosophy, ie Mali, he says " I didn't ask about your background"......HELLO.....mate , if you sling mud at people, don't be surprised when they try and explain their viewpoint.

If anyone takes things personally , it's you my Sri Lankan friend.

Our previous problem , in my opinion , was caused by you sending me a personal message , without any open discussion , I found the content a tad ambiguous , when I asked what you meant, your reply was flippant to say the least "No wonder you couldn't understand , forget it!" if I recall correctly.

I had to dig around to find out who the #### this was sending me messages , before posting on the thread.

I respect your opinions on the subject ( native English speakers as teachers) but your etiquette needs work.

My offer to meet you in Bangkok was turned down by yourself, I wanted to speak with you face to face, but you declined.

The world is full of people with strong opinions , when behind a keyboard.

Look forward to your " conspiracy theory" reply.

Chonabot

btw I have 2 friends from Columbo , so no accusations of Xenophobia s'il vous plait.

[Bud Zumwalt]

???

It is true I grew up in America, but things have changed since then too. Like wise things have changed in Thailand, and I believe my most recent three long visits within the last year kind of gives me a little insight into what is now going on. By the way those three were only my recent visits I have been there in the past as well, matter of fact back in the days of Nam Thailand was the only place you could go, quote "GI have good time" without fear of not waking up minus your favorite tool or having a granade cocktail in the middle of the night. Many GIs loved those Thai ladies so much back then they are still happily married to this day stateside.

Are you the same guy that married the virgin, after making a fool out of himself going around Bangkok with a chaporone. Tell me is your love life still that exciting? Or better yet, you get off by insulting people after sucking up too many happy hour beers at 9:00 AM after a swinging evening of snoring all night while your wife sleeps in the other bedroom.

Bud

[D80]

Hmm... I don't like giving my details on the net .... But I am in my 20s.... I have close friends from all age range including those from early teen (who see me as their big sisters... so I do get a lot of teenage problems) and lots of things Mali says is still true... I pointed out I disagree with her on some points (and you will see that some of my points differ from hers if you read the post) but at the same time most of her view isn't really that outdated... Thai women (and teenagers) do have sex before marriage, of course they do!  But most will not be very open about it.  Also, quite a few of the ladies won't even engage in full sexual relationship at all before they marry.    As for living together before marriage, most Thais still frown upon the idea.  Most uni students living together (bf/gf) keep that fact well away from their parents.  A mate of mine has done it himself.  An even though the couple went on to marriage, he told me it was 'bloody hard work!' having to keep so many people in the dark about the whole thing.  hehehe  ::

It's funny really when people here said Thai women will expect sex to be on the card when in a relationship.  Well, it's true that they will think about the issue.  And it's also true that 'some' of them will go for it.  But it's not true to say all of them will want to engage in the act before they marry.  Some of them do, and there's nothing wrong with that.  But quite a few of them won't.  There's nothing wrong with that either (for some reason, people seem to find it so hard to accept that some may choose not to have sex before they marry). And some of these women are willing to break up with their pursuers if they have to choose between having sex with the men and holding on to their belief.  Again, I make no moral judgment here.   ::

The reason I said it's funny is because I have a few friends in the past who ask me lots of things about Thai-farang relationship.  Some of these girls told me that although they are interested in getting to know westerner and maybe date some of them, they are reluctant to do so partly because of the 'sex' issue.  You don't have to believe me but they asked me all the time about whether it's true that farangs expect to have sex when they go out with you.  It does put some of them off that sex is so obviously 'on the card' for most westerners.  It proves to be one of the most common culture clash in my experience (And it's definitely not outdated.  Only a few months ago, a Thai friend broke up with her farang bf over the issue-she's a student here, from Thai/Chinese background, strictly traditional...sad story though.. tears and heartache all round   ).

Thai men will try to have sex with their gf most of the time too.  And some of them will break up over this while some of them will come to some sort of agreement.  But traditionally (and most girls I've been with are brought up this way-most of them middle-upperclass kids), that is the ultimate test to see whether your bf really really loves you (whether he can wait until marriage).  I'm not saying this is right, I am merely explaining what sort of environment some of the girls/women are brought up in.  So, don't shoot the messenger here.  This is what is traditionally done.  Many women won't practice it now and that's their choice.  But many will still choose to practice it.  To say Thai women don't practice this anymore is an overstatement.

Perhaps it's only certain types/groups of people that still hold this believe.  And perhaps most foreigners don't come into contact with such groups.  But I assure you, it is not out dated.  It hasn't been given a loud voice to confirm its existance, that's all.  Thai society has been changing rapidly for the past 10 years.  Granted that sex is becoming more and more liberal among Thais.  However, it's still a sensitive subject for most.  And hence, like mrentoul pointed out before, ask before you touch.  :cool:

[D80]

Are you the same guy that married the virgin, after making a fool out of himself going around Bangkok with a chaporone. Tell me is your love life still that exciting? Or better yet, you get off by insulting people after sucking up too many happy hour beers at 9:00 AM after a swinging evening of snoring all night while your wife sleeps in the other bedroom

I'm sorry, this has nothing to do with me.... although you are describing Thai tradition in courtship as making a fool of oneself-perhaps you didn't really know the reasons to it.... but what's with the harsh words???  Why is respecting your significant other's belief 'making a fool out of himself'??  Why is it so important that one has to have sex in relationship before one marries??  People can choose what they want to do, including whether or not to have sex.  Why is that such a big deal???

So far, 'freedom to have sex' as talked about by some members of the board seems to equal 'the obligation to have sex' in order not to be insulted!  If you want to have sex with a consensual adult, fine, go for it, be safe and have fun!  But if you decide not to, then what's the problem??  

Just for future reference, Wolf was the person describing the chaperone scenario which quite a few Thai relationships are conducted under.  

The chaperone thing is usually done until the man is deemed 'trustworthy' and that varies from person to person.  

Sometimes, it is just to symbolise that this girl is well loved and taken care of by her family/friends.  But most of the time, it is a process of 'assessing' the man and for friends and family to get to know him.

Not all Thais do this but some think it is a proper way of courtship.  I didn't go through that myself but some of my friends do.  

If they are all happy, why not?  It might not be your culture, but if it's theirs and some people are happy to practice it, then why make fun of them?  

 ???  ???