Red-shirted People Raid Santi Asoke Branch In Chiang Mai

[sbk]

Off topic posts have been deleted. Lets do try to keep this within the realm of the topic and adult discussion, thanks.

[bunnaag]

Because is there a greater sign of lowlife than hit a monk whit clappers who are feet. .

Technically they are not monks, just keep that in mind.

As has already been mentioned, they are not recognised by the Thai Sangha.

They can be described as 'a movement'.

You mean in this case its perfectly allright to hit them.

[jdinasia]

Because is there a greater sign of lowlife than hit a monk whit clappers who are feet. .

Technically they are not monks, just keep that in mind.

As has already been mentioned, they are not recognised by the Thai Sangha.

They can be described as 'a movement'.

Wrong ... They are monks. They are just not part of the Thai Sangha. What you are saying would be akin to saying that this or that Christian group does not have priests because they are not Catholic. Tibetan tradition monks as well as those of the Chinese sects are also recognized as monks.

Non Thai Sangha monks are not open to censure by the Thai Sangha (Just like The Pope has no ability to censure Anglicans etc)

They can be described as a sect in any of the four major sections of the definition from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sect

[mc2]

Because is there a greater sign of lowlife than hit a monk whit clappers who are feet. .

Technically they are not monks, just keep that in mind.

As has already been mentioned, they are not recognised by the Thai Sangha.

They can be described as 'a movement'.

Wrong ... They are monks. They are just not part of the Thai Sangha. What you are saying would be akin to saying that this or that Christian group does not have priests because they are not Catholic. Tibetan tradition monks as well as those of the Chinese sects are also recognized as monks.

Non Thai Sangha monks are not open to censure by the Thai Sangha (Just like The Pope has no ability to censure Anglicans etc)

They can be described as a sect in any of the four major sections of the definition from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sect

Wrong. the leader was a Samanen. A samanen can't ordain monks. Therefore they are not monks. Dont back up your nonsense with silly dictionary references. Next!

[mc2]

Because is there a greater sign of lowlife than hit a monk whit clappers who are feet. .

Technically they are not monks, just keep that in mind.

As has already been mentioned, they are not recognised by the Thai Sangha.

They can be described as 'a movement'.

You mean in this case its perfectly allright to hit them.

nope

[jdinasia]

Sorry .. but you are wrong

IF they were still part of the Thai Sangha what you say MIGHT be true. Since they are not, you are wrong.

Edited January 25, 2009 by jdinasia

[mc2]

Sorry .. but you are wrong

IF they were still part of the Thai Sangha what you say MIGHT be true. Since they are not, you are wrong.

I never heard such nonsense before in my life.

[wolfmanjack]

I am all for cheap prices, but those original charges were amazingly cheap compared to many other countries. Don't get me wrong, I rather pay next to nothing too, but I rather have the visa easily and legally available for a reasonable price, than having pay bribes to get it like in the old days.

The visas I agree, but permanent residency is expensive. Also compared to other countries.

And more difficult to get.

[cmsally]

If my sources are correct , then the reason Chamlong came to Chiang Mai, was in fact to open a new site/branch of the Santi Asoke. This is on some land (heard about 100 acres) near Pha Phe (or Pha Mieng - or maybe both) somewhere off the Mae Taeng to Pai road. They already have another site in the same area, not sure if this is adjacent or a new site completely.

It seems Father Christmas was very generous this year to Mr. Chamlong but there maybe a slight slip up in that some of this land should be in the boundaries of a national park. Do I see a case of deja vu here ?

It would be rather embarassing to the Democrats if this turned out to be the case.

[jdinasia]

Sorry .. but you are wrong

IF they were still part of the Thai Sangha what you say MIGHT be true. Since they are not, you are wrong.

I never heard such nonsense before in my life.

Then you might wish to actually learn something about the topic

Santi Asoke (although a bit unorthodox in many ways, and very fundamentalist in many other ways) is a legitimate Buddhist sect.

[plachon]

We now have the bizarre scenario where the red shirts (who are seen as anti establishment) are battling the Santi Asoke who are also anti establishment (need to read their history back by about 20yrs).

So what do we have the Red Army vs the Dharma Army?

As usual a smokescreen of deflection, just one of many layers on the onion.

Hardly a very even "battleground", when the Reds use violence against women, children and monks to achieve their aims, while the Santi Asoke side use non-violent means and turn the other cheek to their attackers. This has been the case from this Chiang Mai attack to the bombs lobbed by Reds on top of sleeping people camped out in Bangkok. However, using peaceful resistance will win out in the end I'm sure and the battle was won from the moment the Reds decided to use violence against the so-called Dhamma Army.

[henryalleman]

I never see written so much nonsense as in this comments.

They are no monks because they are not recognized by the Thai Buddhist Sangha. Knowing that the Thai Buddhist Sangha is allied with the political powers in Thailand in their mutual benefit.

The most important thing is. Are they following the preachings and teachings of Lord Buddha?

is the way they practise Buddhism in contradiction with the teachings and preaches of Lord Buddha?

If the first answer is positive and the second negative there are entitled to call themmselves monks.

But there is noi reason what so ever that renegades a

[Journalist]

Does it actually matter if they are monks or lay people? Why argue about it? (particularly with simpering smileys)

....there they were having a quiet saturday afternoon, when in rushes Chamlong, shouting, 'don't tell them i'm here, don't tell them i'm here'

Followed 10 minutes later by a bunch of yobboes who then start beating their heads in with sharpened, razor wire-wrapped, foot-clappers

[jdinasia]

Why discuss it? Because to diminish the monks at Santi Asoke is an attempt to diminish the nature of the crime. Simple as that.

"They weren't monks" is absolutely diminishing the crime in Thailand.

[Crushdepth]

This all highlights what is so drastically wrong with the Red Shirt side.

They allow NO dissenting talk if they can stop it.

I have heard yellow shorts called fascists many times,

but what is called violence, occuring infrequently, from their side,

pales in comparison with the other side's frequent stronger tactics

vs anyone disagreeing at ANY time.

I agree. Raiding a monastary and abusing monks? How low can they go?

[henryalleman]

I never see written so much nonsense as in this comments.

They are no monks because they are not recognized by the Thai Buddhist Sangha. Knowing that the Thai Buddhist Sangha is allied with the political powers in Thailand in their mutual benefit.

The most important thing is. Are they following the preachings and teachings of Lord Buddha?

is the way they practise Buddhism in contradiction with the teachings and preaches of Lord Buddha?

If the first answer is positive and the second negative there are entitled to call themmselves monks.

But there is noi reason what so ever that renegades a

But there is no reason what so ever to condone or minimize the despicable behaviour of low lives who attacked them.

BTW Buddhism practised in Thailand is a mixture of Buddhism and the old tradition of Animism.

Can any one give me a teaching or preaching of Lord Buddha where he asked to wear Amulets or building golden statues of his image or building temples. Come on lets call a spade a spade

Buddhism is big business in Thailand, and has not much to do anymore with the real teachings of Lord Buddha.

An old European story go's as well in Thailand.

"Once the cardinal went to the King and said

Your majesty lets make a deal,

You keep them poor and I will keep them ignorant and obedient

in both our benefit.

And this my friends is exactly how Buddhism works in Thailand.

Just look to the meaning of the colours in the Thai national flag

BTW this go's for every organised religion in the world.

[Journalist]

Why discuss it? Because to diminish the monks at Santi Asoke is an attempt to diminish the nature of the crime. Simple as that.

"They weren't monks" is absolutely diminishing the crime in Thailand.

So in the Thai criminal statute book, how much more severe are the penalties for beating or murdering a monk than for a lay person?

[JacknDanny]

Does it actually matter if they are monks or lay people? Why argue about it? (particularly with simpering smileys)

....there they were having a quiet saturday afternoon, when in rushes Chamlong, shouting, 'don't tell them i'm here, don't tell them i'm here'

Followed 10 minutes later by a bunch of yobboes who then start beating their heads in with sharpened, razor wire-wrapped, foot-clappers

Hmmm, so thats how it went down

Was this witnessed by yourself, or did it come from another reliable source of yours?

I heard the BBC are looking for new journalists. Sounds like its just up your street.

[mc2]

Sorry .. but you are wrong

IF they were still part of the Thai Sangha what you say MIGHT be true. Since they are not, you are wrong.

I never heard such nonsense before in my life.

Then you might wish to actually learn something about the topic

Santi Asoke (although a bit unorthodox in many ways, and very fundamentalist in many other ways) is a legitimate Buddhist sect.

but the leader is not a monk. The head monk that ordained him revoked his monk status. Does he accept his authority or not ? either way he loses because if he accepts the head monks authority then he must accept the revokation, if he doesnt accept his authority then by implication he doesnt accept his own ordination as legitimate. Also he has broke a critical rule causing him to lose monk status. That rule relates to boasting about spiritual attainments. That particular rule is of such serious concequence for a monk it is classed along with murder and sex.

Edited January 25, 2009 by mc2

[mc2]

The most important thing is. Are they following the preachings and teachings of Lord Buddha?

is the way they practise Buddhism in contradiction with the teachings and preaches of Lord Buddha?

If the first answer is positive and the second negative there are entitled to call themmselves monks.

by that logic, any old joe and mary can call themselves 'monks' if they practice the teachings etc as you state.

nope. its a bit more complex than that im afraid.

[jayjayjayjay]

jbowman/josky

I don't think MOST Thais are too well versed in the Santi Asoke movement but in many instances the government has not been too kind to them. (They are a strict vegetarian movement that ordains female monks and is led by a controversial leader .. they are not a part of the Thai sangha and their dogma is not strictly orthodox though they certainly present it as such.) They are an interesting group, I have studied at Pathom Asoke for a weekend retreat and found them very interesting!

In most countries you would call this a cult. By what they do and how they have shown themselves in public, looks pretty close to the truth.........

Edited January 26, 2009 by jayjayjayjay

[jayjayjayjay]

Shut up and leave or we will give you a beating or worse.

I'm sorry to have questioned your jugement Sir. You are right about everything!

hah ha aha hahaah aha------------------------------ yup! like your style UG

[Plus]

If Santi Asoke or Yellow Shirts are attacked by Red Shirts, my compassion has limits, and the same counts for Red Shirts attacked by PAD.

Never happened.

Red shirt guy who was killed was in a armed group attacking PAD camp, not the other way around.

Reds attacked PAD rallies on numeorous occasions, now they attack temples as well.

Does it actually matter if they are monks or lay people?

... or cockroaches?

As long as they are yellow it's ok, huh?

[TAWP]

What is a 'foot clapper' anyway?

Is it a metre long and made of cast iron with nails sticking out of it? Or is it a small fluffy pillow?

You really don't know? Not much of a journalist, eh?

[Xangsamhua]

Does it actually matter if they are monks or lay people? Why argue about it? (particularly with simpering smileys)

....there they were having a quiet saturday afternoon, when in rushes Chamlong, shouting, 'don't tell them i'm here, don't tell them i'm here'

Followed 10 minutes later by a bunch of yobboes who then start beating their heads in with sharpened, razor wire-wrapped, foot-clappers

Chamlong wasn't there. He didn't go. It was all Keystone Cops with foot clappers.

[Dap]

Oh, I think the red-shirts will be around for a while.

Red, Yellow, Brown ... there will always be one of them "around". Really too bad, but it is the nature of man.

[jdinasia]

jbowman/josky

I don't think MOST Thais are too well versed in the Santi Asoke movement but in many instances the government has not been too kind to them. (They are a strict vegetarian movement that ordains female monks and is led by a controversial leader .. they are not a part of the Thai sangha and their dogma is not strictly orthodox though they certainly present it as such.) They are an interesting group, I have studied at Pathom Asoke for a weekend retreat and found them very interesting!

In most countries you would call this a cult. By what they do and how they have shown themselves in public, looks pretty close to the truth.........

Please .. tell us all about your intimate knowledge of Santi Asoke (No most countries wouldn't call them a cult ... but feel free to see what I have written about them in the past

[jdinasia]

Sorry .. but you are wrong

IF they were still part of the Thai Sangha what you say MIGHT be true. Since they are not, you are wrong.

I never heard such nonsense before in my life.

Then you might wish to actually learn something about the topic

Santi Asoke (although a bit unorthodox in many ways, and very fundamentalist in many other ways) is a legitimate Buddhist sect.

but the leader is not a monk. The head monk that ordained him revoked his monk status. Does he accept his authority or not ? either way he loses because if he accepts the head monks authority then he must accept the revokation, if he doesnt accept his authority then by implication he doesnt accept his own ordination as legitimate. Also he has broke a critical rule causing him to lose monk status. That rule relates to boasting about spiritual attainments. That particular rule is of such serious concequence for a monk it is classed along with murder and sex.

Feel free to keep doing some reading

Your knowledge of a schism or sectarian religions and theologies seems to be missing.

Can I self ordain? Sure ... does it have any merit? It does under some circumstances.

Does it make the slightest difference in this discussion? NO .. unless you have knowledge about which monk was attacked and who his preceptor was ... (not to mention all the other factors)

[mc2]

Sorry .. but you are wrong

IF they were still part of the Thai Sangha what you say MIGHT be true. Since they are not, you are wrong.

I never heard such nonsense before in my life.

Then you might wish to actually learn something about the topic

Santi Asoke (although a bit unorthodox in many ways, and very fundamentalist in many other ways) is a legitimate Buddhist sect.

but the leader is not a monk. The head monk that ordained him revoked his monk status. Does he accept his authority or not ? either way he loses because if he accepts the head monks authority then he must accept the revokation, if he doesnt accept his authority then by implication he doesnt accept his own ordination as legitimate. Also he has broke a critical rule causing him to lose monk status. That rule relates to boasting about spiritual attainments. That particular rule is of such serious concequence for a monk it is classed along with murder and sex.

Feel free to keep doing some reading

Your knowledge of a schism or sectarian religions and theologies seems to be missing.

Can I self ordain? Sure ... does it have any merit? It does under some circumstances.

Does it make the slightest difference in this discussion? NO .. unless you have knowledge about which monk was attacked and who his preceptor was ... (not to mention all the other factors)

well that was a bizarre, mysterious post.

so lets suppose an average joe buys some monk robes, 'self ordains' himself, then goes around saying he is a reincarnation of some Buddha, flaunts and breaks the rules, plays his part in effecting a schism in the Sangha, then expects to be given the same level of respect as other 'real' monks ?

when faced with the hand clappers, the 'monks' did the right thing be remaining equananimous, to their credit. I respect that.

[mc2]

jbowman/josky

I don't think MOST Thais are too well versed in the Santi Asoke movement but in many instances the government has not been too kind to them. (They are a strict vegetarian movement that ordains female monks and is led by a controversial leader .. they are not a part of the Thai sangha and their dogma is not strictly orthodox though they certainly present it as such.) They are an interesting group, I have studied at Pathom Asoke for a weekend retreat and found them very interesting!

In most countries you would call this a cult. By what they do and how they have shown themselves in public, looks pretty close to the truth.........

Please .. tell us all about your intimate knowledge of Santi Asoke (No most countries wouldn't call them a cult ... but feel free to see what I have written about them in the past

why would he want to waste his time doing that ? most of what you have written is nonsense.