Financial Crisis

[ronz28]

Germany is a solid economy in Europe but it is far behind the US and China in terms of GDP of the world so I suspect key economic decisions will continue to need to be coordinated among the economic leaders rather than a single conductor that represents a relatively small portion of the world GDP..

http://en.wikipedia....(PPP)_estimates

With a coordinated approach, there is the advantage of many different perspectives to problems and solutions with checks and balances on authority, but the disadvantage of delayed action due to the bottlenecks caused by some that refuse to compromise to move ahead for the good of all. So a conductor would preclude many bottlenecks but who would trust him with little or no checks and balances?

To break the bottlenecks, just have to have agree that majority rules and have some accepted rules with consequences that all must comply with, when economic decisions are accepted by a given percent who agree. This way no one country or a couple can hold the rest hostage to economic decline for their own benefit. The problem participants are held accountable and compelled to take corrective action on a timely basis but may choose among options available to solve their issues that best fits their circumstances and their people can accept as long as it solves the issues.

Edited December 1, 2011 by ronz28

[lannarebirth]

'That begs the question why the US would join forces with the ECB and the Bank of China to rescue Europe.'

'this time Russia is not battling the US over who can and will own Europe. This time it is China and the US.'

Ah... China to the rescue .. what about privatising some European Assets -If Germany sold a stake in her Autobahn's to China - The Chinese could erect toll booths or .. (sentry boxes) every 10 kms or so to collect the interest ...

It may have something to do with all the derivatives American banks are holding that insure the European banks do not become insolvent. Once again American banks pretend to take the risk, receive the reward and the US taxpayer become the defacto counterparty.

Edited December 1, 2011 by lannarebirth

[Naam]

'That begs the question why the US would join forces with the ECB and the Bank of China to rescue Europe.'

'this time Russia is not battling the US over who can and will own Europe. This time it is China and the US.'

Ah... China to the rescue .. what about privatising some European Assets -If Germany sold a stake in her Autobahn's to China - The Chinese could erect toll booths or .. (sentry boxes) every 10 kms or so to collect the interest ...

It may have something to do with all the derivatives American banks are holding that insure the European banks do not become insolvent. Once again American banks pretend to take the risk, receive the reward and the US taxpayer become the defacto counterparty.

that is definitely one of the reasons. but one should not underestimate the importance of a healthy Europe for the economies of China as well as the U.S.

[Naam]

Germany is a solid economy in Europe but it is far behind the US and China in terms of GDP of the world so I suspect key economic decisions will continue to need to be coordinated among the economic leaders rather than a single conductor that represents a relatively small portion of the world GDP..

Ronz,

the importance of a country's individual GDP is totally irrelevant for it's importance as far as international/global trade relations are concerned.

en détail: the GDP generated by a hamburger flipper in Boise, Idaho or that of a Panda bear keeper in a Shanghai zoo or the waitresses serving beer mugs at the München Oktoberfest is for the afore-mentioned or any other countries as irrelevant as are the tits of a nun who vowed eternal celibacy.

important is only the production of goods and services exchanged between countries. may i [not so] humbly remind you that until last year Germany was for years world champion in exporting goods? it lost the title in 2010 to China which exported 2½% more and it looks like that 2011 is again a year for Germany to be champion.

p.s. that GDP is nothing but rubbish is one of my most favoured topics

interesting to read a related comment:

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,5100928,00.html

[lannarebirth]

'That begs the question why the US would join forces with the ECB and the Bank of China to rescue Europe.'

'this time Russia is not battling the US over who can and will own Europe. This time it is China and the US.'

Ah... China to the rescue .. what about privatising some European Assets -If Germany sold a stake in her Autobahn's to China - The Chinese could erect toll booths or .. (sentry boxes) every 10 kms or so to collect the interest ...

It may have something to do with all the derivatives American banks are holding that insure the European banks do not become insolvent. Once again American banks pretend to take the risk, receive the reward and the US taxpayer become the defacto counterparty.

that is definitely one of the reasons. but one should not underestimate the importance of a healthy Europe for the economies of China as well as the U.S.

You'd really have to be an insanely contrarian investor to think the $USD Index looks very good here. Still, it's got that gap at 87....

Edited December 1, 2011 by lannarebirth

[churchill]

The United states of Europe coming soon ...

European debt crisis: Euro zone facing make-up-or-break-up choice

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/european-debt-crisis-euro-zone-facing-make-up-or-break-up-choice/2011/11/30/gIQAuriAEO_story.html

[elliss]

Germany is a solid economy in Europe

germany is the only solid economy in the EU.

and for that reason should be given complete control of the euro zone .

lead by example .

[Naam]

germany is the only solid economy in the EU.

and for that reason should be given complete control of the euro zone .

lead by example .

due to its past nearly impossible when viewed from a psychological perspective.

[fletchsmile]

Ronz,

the importance of a country's individual GDP is totally irrelevant for it's importance as far as international/global trade relations are concerned.

en détail: the GDP generated by a hamburger flipper in Boise, Idaho or that of a Panda bear keeper in a Shanghai zoo or the waitresses serving beer mugs at the München Oktoberfest is for the afore-mentioned or any other countries as irrelevant as are the tits of a nun who vowed eternal celibacy.

important is only the production of goods and services exchanged between countries. may i [not so] humbly remind you that until last year Germany was for years world champion in exporting goods? it lost the title in 2010 to China which exported 2½% more and it looks like that 2011 is again a year for Germany to be champion.

p.s. that GDP is nothing but rubbish is one of my most favoured topics

interesting to read a related comment:

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,5100928,00.html

Not really. I think the Chinese are clever enough to see the links between GDP, imports/exports and international trade.

If GDP was indeed irrelevant as you say, that would mean that you are saying a country's GDP could trend to zero and the import/export balance wouldn't be affected. As a net exporter, the Chinese are sharp enough to realise that if the US domestic economy and GDP are screwed, there will be less demand for their Chinese products to be exported, as very few people from the US would have the money to buy from them. In addition the Chinese aren't helping out, due to the goodness of their heart. They know that if the US domestic economy is obliterated, there will be fewer people to buy their Chinese exports, and fewer revenues (and taxes) generated by US to pay the debts it owes to people including China:)

Edited December 1, 2011 by fletchsmile

[elliss]

European debt crisis, deepens daily.

BBC NEWS

the chairman of THE BANK OF ENGLAND, mervyn king ,

has given a stern warning to the banks , and the people of the UK

to prepare for worst case senarios brought about by the worsening

of the euro zone crisis .

IMO , not if the euro collapses , but when .

i think the german prime minster ,being in a NO WIN situation ,

will be stepping down sooner than later .

[Naam]

If GDP was indeed irrelevant as you say, that would mean that you are saying a country's GDP could trend to zero and the import/export balance wouldn't be affected.

that's an incorrect interpretation of my opinion which was addressing

View Postronz28 said:

Germany is a solid economy in Europe but it is far behind the US and China in terms of GDP of the world so I suspect key economic decisions will continue to need to be coordinated among the economic leaders rather than a single conductor that represents a relatively small portion of the world GDP.

but i insist that GDP, as it is commonly regarded, quoted and used as a basis for various extrapolations, is in many cases not only irrelevant but misleading rubbish. excellent examples are "GDP / debt ratio" or "GDP per capita".

[midas]

Zimbabwe Aligns With Yuan

http://weldonhoeppner.wordpress.com/2011/12/01/another-nail-in-the-world-reserve-currencys-coffin-zimbabwe-bashes-us-dollar-aligns-with-yuan/

[Naam]

Zimbabwe Aligns With Yuan

[churchill]

Nigel Farage - Major Banks Teetering on the Edge of Collapse

“As the Italian credit rating started to slip, the Brussels bosses and the German Chancellor said, ‘He’s (Berlusconi has) got to go and we want our man in charge.’ And so Mr. Mario Monti, who was a European Commissioner for ten years, one of the architects of the euro when it was introduced, a man who wasn’t even in the Italian Parliament, has been put in charge and is now the Prime Minister of Italy.”

“He has chosen his cabinet to run Italy and would you believe not a single member of the Italian cabinet is an accountable, elected politician. Democracy has been hijacked, thrown away, in the name of preserving the euro. And I mean, frankly, this is how dictatorships start. I mean this is absolutely terrifying.

What Brussels and the German Chancellor are doing is they are declaring a state of emergency and suspending liberties, rights and democracy. I think it is absolutely horrifying.”

“Frankly, Barrosso, van Rompuy, all of them are just inept and weak. It’s something I’ve sort of teased them about over the years. But because of this vacuum of leadership, Merkel has stepped into the role and she is now the boss. I mean there is no question about that. We now have a German dominated Europe, which ironically was the very thing we were told the European project would stop.

But in economic terms what she is saying is we the German people are not prepared to go on throwing hundreds of billions of euros at bailing out countries that we consider to be fiscally incompetent. But to stay in the euro they (indebted countries) have to accept the austerity packages that are being put to them. I think the result of this German policy is that it’s going to drive some of those countries into a total depression.”

http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/KWN_DailyWeb/Entries/2011/12/2_Nigel_Farage_-_Major_Banks_Teetering_on_the_Edge_of_Collapse.html

[fletchsmile]

'That begs the question why the US would join forces with the ECB and the Bank of China to rescue Europe.'

'this time Russia is not battling the US over who can and will own Europe. This time it is China and the US.'

Ah... China to the rescue .. what about privatising some European Assets -If Germany sold a stake in her Autobahn's to China - The Chinese could erect toll booths or .. (sentry boxes) every 10 kms or so to collect the interest ...

It may have something to do with all the derivatives American banks are holding that insure the European banks do not become insolvent. Once again American banks pretend to take the risk, receive the reward and the US taxpayer become the defacto counterparty.

that is definitely one of the reasons. but one should not underestimate the importance of a healthy Europe for the economies of China as well as the U.S.

I'd say there'd be several reasons including those we might be aware of including perhaps above and possibly some that are hidden at this stage.

The facilities will provide liquidity rather than solvency measures. If a bank is currently insolvent it won't aid their case. However, it may hopefully prevent scenarios where a lack of liquidity leads to a bank defaulting on obligations due to lack of liquidity/ funding even though they have sufficient capital. Given the nature of the interbank market it is too big for any one central bank to have a meaningful effect acting alone.

From a US perspective including the systemic risk to the global banking system, this also happens to be another way of providing dollars to the world - albeit at cheap funding costs. Given the US desire to maintain its position as the leading currency in the world and the world's main reserve currency, one might also say its not in their interests for people to develop alternatives to the dollar. Countries around the world are looking for alternatives, the US doesn't necessarily want to give them additional excuses to do so, by having the dollar funding market dry up.

Also for most banks globally their main funding tends to be in local currency and then in USD. Hence USD funding and access to USD swap markets is essential for virtually every country in the banking world.

Edited December 2, 2011 by fletchsmile

[eriksen]

I am ok with cutting whatever waste but please focus on the trillions of dollars for these long drawn out wars that far exceed duration of World War II even though we are far more efficient now.

http://costofwar.com/en/

And then there is the continuing costs to support veterans, etc. that doesn't stop when the war stops. Better for countries to maintain peace with the rest of the planet and just take out the Hitlers and Bin Ladens.

+1

It all seems so obvious doesn't it?

And it is not like we are the only ones that see it so.....

The question begs who is being enriched by these things? Is it more of the same?

Lobbyist or contract companies selling products to get billions in contracts?

Lining the pockets of those that push for them?

Or is it that we as a country are now so unproductive that the government see the military

as the only viable employment source?

Has to be one of the above IMO because where is the real threat?

Who has the air forces & navies to be a real threat that require this kind of continual deficit spending

on the military industrial complex?

I don't believe the US mainland has been invaded in 200 years so I doubt it has anything to do with defense

not invaded but they made their point..

[johnnybgood]

Thanks for all the interesting stuff gays -- I have been following this TV thread since the beginning, also the Times , Finacial Times and the Daily Telegraph.

Always on the brink of some calamity, it's like a soap that keeps the viewer on the hook each week.....

.

Nothing has happened --- normal people (sheeple) only talk and rant in forums whilst their present and future diposible income gets eroded.

"Bankers" , "technocrats", "civil servants", "they" this and "they" that....

Where do these people in charge live ? What is there names? Where do they go for a beer?

Violence is the only way and these people are the very ones that would say violence solves nothing .

Well it worked for me when bullied at school !!

[midas]

things are not look good for Gerald Celente regarding the chances of him getting his money back

based on the experiences of this customer....................

MF Global customer ..." My entire account is missing " !!!

A $50 million account woosh... gone just like that !

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/02/us-mfglobal-missing-account-idUSTRE7B12AD20111202?feedType=RSS&feedName=businessNews&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&dlvrit=56943

Edited December 3, 2011 by midas

[flying]

the new thread deals with a lot of things, except with a financial crisis. and... for the record: a second financial crisis does not exist. we are still facing the one which started a few years ago.

That is the truth of it.

But I guess many do not understand or they think of it in term of total collapse only.

So since they think the total collapse did not occur in 08 then all was well since.

Now they hear of total collapse threatening yet again & they assume it is caused by a new reasons

Funny how kicking the can down the road & making the problem bigger is confused with it was repaired & a new one now raises its ugly head....

All I keep thinking is the past 3 years of slow decent has been a gift for prepping.

Yet I did not see so many doing so.

[churchill]

things are not look good for Gerald Celente regarding the chances of him getting his money back

based on the experiences of this customer....................

MF Global customer ..." My entire account is missing " !!!

A $50 million account woosh... gone just like that !

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/02/us-mfglobal-missing-account-idUSTRE7B12AD20111202?feedType=RSS&feedName=businessNews&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&dlvrit=56943

Ann Barnhardt: The Entire Futures/Options Market Has Been Destroyed by the MF Global Collapse

http://www.financialsense.com/financial-sense-newshour/guest-expert/2011/12/01/ann-barnhardt/entire-futures-options-market-destroyed-by-mf-global-collapse

[midas]

things are not look good for Gerald Celente regarding the chances of him getting his money back

based on the experiences of this customer....................

MF Global customer ..." My entire account is missing " !!!

A $50 million account woosh... gone just like that !

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/02/us-mfglobal-missing-account-idUSTRE7B12AD20111202?feedType=RSS&feedName=businessNews&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&dlvrit=56943

Ann Barnhardt: The Entire Futures/Options Market Has Been Destroyed by the MF Global Collapse

http://www.financialsense.com/financial-sense-newshour/guest-expert/2011/12/01/ann-barnhardt/entire-futures-options-market-destroyed-by-mf-global-collapse

Yes churchill and bearing in mind Joe Biden looks up to this guy....God help us all!

here he is Joe Biden saying Jon Corzine was the first one the White House called regarding advice on the economy

[midas]

Ann Barnhardt: The Entire Futures/Options Market Has Been Destroyed by the MF Global Collapse

WOW churchill

it can't be a good thing for someone so close to the White House to be accused in this way

" How could those customer funds be “missing”. They aren’t missing. They were stolen. They were stolen by Jon Corzine and his cadre of associates at MF Global. So yes, again, to your listeners who may not fully appreciate the gravity of this, this has never, ever happened before "

It's getting grubbier by the day isn't it?

[midas]

Ann Barnhardt: The Entire Futures/Options Market Has Been Destroyed by the MF Global Collapse

WOW churchill

it can't be a good thing for someone so close to the White House to be accused in this way

" How could those customer funds be “missing”. They aren’t missing. They were stolen. They were stolen by Jon Corzine and his cadre of associates at MF Global. So yes, again, to your listeners who may not fully appreciate the gravity of this, this has never, ever happened before "

It's getting grubbier by the day isn't it?

" And you know what the cherry on top of the sundae of all this is? And this is what blows my mind—the bankruptcy trustee, right now, as this is being recorded on the 30th of November. The bankruptcy trustee is still allowing MF Global to trade proprietarily for itself, for the company proper."

:cheesy:

" It is unbelievable. The rule of law is dead in this country. "

fletchsmile if this isn't the reason to have all your worldly possessions under the bed in the form of

shiny gold ingots, cans of beans, guns and bullets ...........then nothing is

Edited December 3, 2011 by midas

[Naam]

Ann Barnhardt: The Entire Futures/Options Market Has Been Destroyed by the MF Global Collapse

that's indeed horrible!

[lannarebirth]

Ann Barnhardt: The Entire Futures/Options Market Has Been Destroyed by the MF Global Collapse

that's indeed horrible!

Bit of a biased interview, but she was absolutely right about what the role of the exchange is and if the CME is not fulfilling that role, that is indeed worrying. Also, I tend to agree with her about the character of some of these finacial titans. Her one sided political bias (as both sides are equally repugnant) and racial remarks were unnecessary.

Edited December 3, 2011 by lannarebirth

[fletchsmile]

Ann Barnhardt: The Entire Futures/Options Market Has Been Destroyed by the MF Global Collapse

WOW churchill

it can't be a good thing for someone so close to the White House to be accused in this way

" How could those customer funds be “missing”. They aren’t missing. They were stolen. They were stolen by Jon Corzine and his cadre of associates at MF Global. So yes, again, to your listeners who may not fully appreciate the gravity of this, this has never, ever happened before "

It's getting grubbier by the day isn't it?

" And you know what the cherry on top of the sundae of all this is? And this is what blows my mind—the bankruptcy trustee, right now, as this is being recorded on the 30th of November. The bankruptcy trustee is still allowing MF Global to trade proprietarily for itself, for the company proper."

:cheesy:

" It is unbelievable. The rule of law is dead in this country. "

fletchsmile if this isn't the reason to have all your worldly possessions under the bed in the form of

shiny gold ingots, cans of beans, guns and bullets ...........then nothing is

A few years back, I'd have said "unbelievable". Unfortunately these things are getting more and more believable and more and more commonplace. I see it more as a reason to avoid the US financial system unless you have to use it. The whole US financial system looks like a stack of dominoes, and not just the banks. The repercussions on the wider economy and life there in general could be horrendous, when all the sh8t hits the fan, instead of just a smattering here and there.

Hopefully they can find enough circuit break points to stop everything crumbling. Euro block as a whole doesn't look much better, although some individual countries are healthy. UK is a bit of a mess, but at least it doesn't look like the whole system break down. They had their shock adjustments 4 decades back. US is biggest and highest, with hardest and furthest to fall.

Meanwhile here in Thailand, the banks are reasonably well insulated from all the global liquidity and credit issues. There'd be problems, but I wouldn't see a total system collapse here.

BTW Glad to see people are diversifying away from just gold... beans? excellent choice

[midas]

Portugal Is Latest Country To Go "MF Global", Raid Pensions Funds To Delay Fiscal Death

Portugal raids pension funds to meet deficit targets

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8932687/Portugal-raids-pension-funds-to-meet-deficit-targets.html

" Portugal said it had informed the EU and IMF and assured them it would be a “one-off”

Bartender just give me one more just one more

Edited December 4, 2011 by midas

[churchill]

Germany seems stuck in a rut ...

German finance minister details debt fund plan before EU summit

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/03/us-eurozone-germany-idUSTRE7B20FF20111203

is this the way ....

Currency swaps – the beginning of a 'solution'?

http://www.goldmoney.com/gold-research/alasdair-macleod/currency-swaps-the-beginning-of-a-solution.html?gmrefcode=gata

[Naam]

Money-creation that cannot be stopped has only one logical outcome: the complete debasement of the currency. This is good for gold and silver. Furthermore the first two days’ delivery notices on Comex for the December gold contract total a massive 50 tonnes, indicating the futures market is also set up for a bear squeeze from lack of physical.

any child is aware of that but most stupid investors are still keeping massive amounts of fiat money / fiat paper and massively worthless digits on the banks' screens as well as in their spreadsheets instead of massively investing in gold thus driving up the price in a massive way to make the goldbugs happily and massively shouting WE TOLD YOU SO!

[ronz28]

Jim Puplava is a perma gold bug and always has interesting sensational reasons like those cited by Ann Barnhardt to be in gold regardless of whether or not its ready to roll over or go parabolic.

The MF Global situation is very troubling and I am amazed it continues to go on without return of the cash accounts to clients. However, I don't see a one billion $ unresolved fraud killing trillions of dollars of market activity and life will go on.

I think, science and businessmen will continue to advance our economy by finding ways to reduce/avoid costs such as:

Through cheap clean energy from sources like cold fusion such as the Rossi invention and others like the newest claim from Australia

http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/12/new-extraordinary-claims-of-nuclear.html

Much cleaner/cheaper natural gas fracking techniques http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericagies/2011/11/30/can-no-water-fracking-quiet-critics/

New nanoparticle electrodes for batteries that survived 40,000 cycles of charging and discharging, after which it could still be charged to more than 80 percent of its original charge capacity. For comparison, the average lithium ion battery can handle about 400 charge/discharge cycles before it deteriorates too much to be of practical use. Stanford researchers have used nanoparticles of a copper compound to develop a high-power battery electrode that is so inexpensive to make, so efficient and so durable that it could be used to build batteries big enough for economical large-scale energy storage on the electrical grid – something researchers have sought for years. http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal/v2/n11/full/ncomms1563.html

So if humans were static and never improving Puplava might be right and we should all hide out in gold forever but I think everything is dynamic and Gold is just another capital market with cycles that must be timed and constantly compared with other opportunities. I would never short gold but its up a lot now and hitting its short term down trend line now so its a little risky. The US and other economies are improving so the effects of the financial crisis appears to be less currently yet still require solutions.