'Ruling out the foreigner'

[ChiangMaiThai]

Someone else posted this:

i made the decision about staying here and family and got legally married and did everything the right way

Foreigners who marry a Thai and live in Thailand will

have to meet new income requirements, according to the article:

The foreign husband must have not less than 400,000b in the bank and earnings of at least 40,000b per month.

The poster complains that he'll have to find 1000 baht a day to stay here. Let's look at that another way: in your home country, would your government allow a foreigner to marry a citizen of the country and settle down, without any income requirement? How would you feel about it if it did?

Even if the foreigner was allowed in automatically upon marriage, what would happen to the foreigner's right to stay in the event the marriage broke down?

Nothing is for free, especially citizenship in desirable countries.

mrentoul. Your logic is astounding. Do you have no compassion? No one is asking for citizenship. If a farang is married to a Thai woman and has a child, how can he be barred from living with them simply because he does not have 400,000 baht in the bank and does not make 40,000 baht a month?

How many Thais make 40,000 Baht a month???!!!! Especially if one makes the concience choice of wanting to live a simple life in the countryside with one's family. This can be done easily on 10,000 baht a month or so. So you are saying you agree with this law that this person who chooses to lead a simple life, not merely in the persuit of material wealth, should  be denied the right to live with his family? Obviously, you have plenty of money and can never envision yourself in such a situation, which allows you to hold such views.

Yes, there should be some basic financial requirement. But it should be based on Thai standards. In this respects, 40,000 baht a month is ridiculous.

[mrvietnam2001]

Money talks, B/S walks. Take the money for a walk and watch the B/S stop.

Or not!

Hahahaha then it isn't worth the trouble.

Mr Vietnam

[ChiangMaiThai]

The poster complains that he'll have to find 1000 baht a day to stay here. Let's look at that another way: in your home country, would your government allow a foreigner to marry a citizen of the country and settle down, without any income requirement? How would you feel about it if it did?

mrentoul...The difference is......at my home country, the foreigner would be entitled (Wrongly) to all the state benefits and support that they would need to carry on living there,- at the expense of the Uk taxpayer. That is NOT the case in Thailand. There is absolutely NO danger of a foreigner becoming a burden to the taxpayer of Thailand, because there are no benefits to receive. They would have no choice if they ran out of money, but to leave. So....What's the problem?

Well said Ken. mrentoul and other supporters of these laws have yet to explain what harm the long stay foreigner is to the country. Say he 'only' spends 20,000 baht a month. How is this a burden to Thailand and its people? It is a small contribution and does add up. The farnag is a burden to no one and as ken said, if money runs out, he will go home. Mrentoul and Thaksin, I can not comprehend your logic.

[mrentoul]

surely when you look at the bigger picture, thousands of people like me, we surely represent more good than harm. Do we not?

Sure you do. But in the government's view you'd be contributing even more if you were in full-time work and offering skills in short supply; if you were an investor; or a short-stay tourist.

I am lucky to have skills that an employer here wants. Otherwise I'd be out the door. I know that, and that's why it's a privilege being here. By contrast, some posters here are carrying on as if they own the place. Yet what do they offer, apart from a modest income?

Personally, I can't imagine giving up my career in the West for the sake of an easy lifestyle here or anywhere else; it's just not worth it. I realise there are some long-stay westerners here who have made that very choice, but in doing so they must have known their position here was tenuous. This is someone else's land; your right to own property is limited, and you can't vote.

I am sure many westerners ask themselves whether the price of getting lost in Thailand is really worth it. If these measures come to pass a few more might be tempted to ask: What am I doing here? Why am I here?

Westerners are in an even more precarious position if they are here on short-term visas designed for tourists. Border hops, visa runs, fake visa stamps; is this really a dignified way to go? I don't think so.

[pschef]

[mrentoul. Your logic is astounding. Do you have no compassion? No one is asking for citizenship. If a farang is married to a Thai woman and has a child, how can he be barred from living with them simply because he does not have 400,000 baht in the bank and does not make 40,000 baht a month?

How many Thais make 40,000 Baht a month???!!!! Especially if one makes the concience choice of wanting to live a simple life in the countryside with one's family. This can be done easily on 10,000 baht a month or so. So you are saying you agree with this law that this person who chooses to lead a simple life, not merely in the persuit of material wealth, should  be denied the right to live with his family? Obviously, you have plenty of money and can never envision yourself in such a situation, which allows you to hold such views.

Yes, there should be some basic financial requirement. But it should be based on Thai standards. In this respects, 40,000 baht a month is ridiculous.

Like many other members post, I just wonder why the Thai Rak Thai are targeting not only long stay farrang  but their own people ( our Thai spouses and children ) they should change the name to Thai Rak Rich? I personally have invested my life savings in house etc. I hoped one day to retire here; it now looks like my dream has burst. These new rules could break apart my family. I would be grateful if everyone could contact the media in which ever way they can, maybe the Thai Rak Rich party will reconsider us normal guys?

[mrvietnam2001]

mrentoul, I think that some folks don't appreciate your brutal "honesty".

Ain't that a shame. Whahahahahaha.

I think you're "off" on a few issues, but you're right more than "off". I look at things as a real Libertarian and so it shows accordingly.

Rgrds

Mr Vietnam

[mrentoul]

You’ll find there are many legal strategies to live and work here. Every person’s case is different.

That's from Sunbelt. Creative people will find ways around the new curbs. Need to stay here on medical grounds? Get a friendly doctor to sign something saying you do. Easy.

Westerners who have lived here for years on 90-day visas are no stranger to such wheezes. So what's the problem?

mrentoul, I think that some folks don't appreciate your brutal "honesty".

I agree. I wonder why it is that people on this board are panicking, but people at ajarn.com and nanaplaza.com are not. Perhaps it's because they've seen it all before.

If a farang is married to a Thai woman and has a child, how can he be barred from living with them simply because he does not have 400,000 baht in the bank and does not make 40,000 baht a month?

You agree the government should set a financial requirement; your own post says so, though you reckon B40,000 a month is too much and it should be set by ''Thai standards''.

What - less than B10,000 a month? That's virtually free. And if it's not free, and in fact represents a big slice of what you're bringing to the arrangement, then you're not creating much value, are you?

You're living here by virtue of a marriage contract, plus a few baht in the bank. You get to live in the country of your choice as a de-facto citizen, as someone put it in another post. What is the Thai government getting out of the deal?

[parryhandy]

what im saying is the rules are now being changed and lifetime decisions made under the old rules count for nothing. this would certainly not be the case in the west.events that took place before the new rules would be allowed to stand.i understand thailand may have problems with drug dealers , criminals etc from the west but you will find that these sort of people will not be affected by these rules at all.these people will have money.

please tell me mrentoul why i or my wife need to earn 1000+ baht a day when most families in our neighbourhood earn about 200 a day.we are both law abiding caring people that do no harm to anybody.

i just hope some ridiculous law change shafts you one day then you might lose that im alright jack mentality that most people here seem to have."it will never happen to me "its ok then.

[mrvietnam2001]

what im saying is the rules are now being changed and lifetime decisions made under the old rules count for nothing. this would certainly not be the case in the west.events that took place before the new rules would be allowed to stand.i understand thailand may have problems with drug dealers , criminals etc from the west but you will find that these sort of people will not be affected by these rules at all.these people will have money.

please tell me mrentoul why i or my wife need to earn 1000+ baht a day when most families in our neighbourhood earn about 200 a day.we are both law abiding caring people that do no harm to anybody.

i just hope some ridiculous law change shafts you one day then you might lose that im alright jack mentality that most people here seem to have."it will never happen to me "its ok then.

why i or my wife need to earn 1000+ baht a day

25 bucks a day is a hardship huh?

25 bucks a day.

Mr Vietnam

[parryhandy]

What is the Thai government getting out of the deal?

well i think youve hit the nail on the head there.the diferent mentality between western govns and thai leaders.the thai govn serves its own self interests and what effects it has on its people it is indifferent to at best.

a friend in the village has a house in engalnd but doesnt wish to move his family there. hes just used the last of his savings to build a house here. he bought the franchise for a school shop for his wife and this earns them enough to live on but not 40000 a month.hes shafted now all his dreams are in tatters same as mine.

[mrentoul]

Thank-you, Vietnam. Well said.

As for this:

i just hope some ridiculous law change shafts you one day

That's not very nice!

would certainly not be the case in the west.events that took place before the new rules would be allowed to stand.

You may have a point there.

[pschef]

If a farang is married to a Thai woman and has a child, how can he be barred from living with them simply because he does not have 400,000 baht in the bank and does not make 40,000 baht a month?

(also this is a contradiction in terms, how can we earn this money per month when many of us cannot get work permits?)

I agree if you are on retirement, but I for example have 10 more years before my pension is payable. Okay let me work legally for this 40 grand no problem with that ???

[Maigo6]

Parry i feel for you.

Is it not possible to try to make some arrangements like you going to work in your country for say half a year and staying with your family the other half, many Thai guys work overseas where they can get better money, they have to leave thier families for a while usually 2 years at a time, but they go for the money. I dont know your situation, i just feel a bit sorry for you, anyway dont worry about it too much, the law is not in yet, things change, maybe your situation will change.

Dont feel so bad about things, always a solution somewhere.

Dont worry too much about some of the pisstaking posts, i reckon a lot of the guys that post on this forum could not find Thailand on a map of South-east Asia.

Hope you get sorted out mate.

cheers

[parryhandy]

Parry i feel for you.

Is it not possible to try to make some arrangements like you going to work in your country for say half a year and staying with your family the other half, many Thai guys work overseas where they can get better money, they have to leave thier families for a while usually 2 years at a time, but they go for the money. I dont know your situation, i just feel a bit sorry for you, anyway dont worry about it too much, the law is not in yet, things change, maybe your situation will change.

Dont feel so bad about things, always a solution somewhere.

dont worry about me ill survive.its the thai people i feel for who have nothing. yes i am not stupid and realize one day i will have to work overseas anyway but this should be a descision me and my wife make when needed not because we are forced too.

mrentoul i think your only looking at this from a foreign perspective . what about my wifes rights.she has married me and we have a family and this is not a problem legally only to be told that it is now unless you are financially secure by western standards.i know i have no vote or rights etc but she does.

[JT65]

Parry i feel for you.

I dont know your situation, i just feel a bit sorry for you, anyway dont worry about it too much, the law is not in yet, things change, maybe your situation will change.

Dont feel so bad about things, always a solution somewhere.

Dont worry too much about some of the pisstaking posts, i reckon a lot of the guys that post on this forum could not find Thailand on a map of South-east Asia.

Hope you get sorted out mate.

cheers

Parry

I would listen to this advice. The rules are not law yet and things may change. Remember it is Thailand and things change very quickly. Furthermore I have not seen any of this leaked information in any other significant newspaper. It really is a bit early to be fretting over the whole thing.

One thing that I am surprised no one has brought up is that this does effect a lot of Thai people and we all know thai's are very creative in getting around their own laws.  Loopholes will exist and methods available for you to stay. I personally dont think that the Thai Government is trying to finish Husbands of thai wives especially with kids. Time will tell but their is no point freaking out at this early stage.  Lets see if it is published in the Bangkok Post or the Nation.  Interesting that this leaked info has been leaked to a small foreign pulication in Northern Thailand.

[mrentoul]

what about my wifes rights.she has married me and we have a family and this is not a problem legally only to be told that it is now unless you are financially secure by western standards.i know i have no vote or rights etc but she does.

I agree that a grandfather clause would be fairer.

Loopholes will exist and methods available for you to stay. I personally dont think that the Thai Government is trying to finish Husbands of thai wives especially with kids.

As I said above, creative people will find ways around the rules, and as this poster says, these things change every five minutes anyway.

[kb]

one thing im not sure of is that if the business is set up now under the 2 million baht LTD scheme will it be required to inject the new millions later into the business or is it not retrospective

ALSO AUSTRALIANS NOTE that there have been high level talks regarding the FTA between Australia and Thailand and guess what the thais are asking for "less restrictions on thai business visa" see http://www.bangkokpost.com/Business/05Sep2003_biz75.html

Surprise Surprise Surprise - so when the OZ government agrees and signs it off i hope they realise that the thais are about the jack up the price and conditions.

maybe they are just getting parity with OZ costs?

So contact the chamber of commerce and protest in case the OZ powers that be were a little " to happy" when this was being agreed to

thai OZ FTA :laugh:

[kb]

Australians (and others) email here to protest

[email protected]

i have sent the newspaper artical and expect the ol politician one two soft shoe

[george]

Gentlemen, Chai Yen Yen!

If we don't qualify for one-year visa extensions in-country, we still can live here with a visa run every year, and a border run every 90 days *).

*) Obtain Non-O or B Multi entry every 15 month at farang friendly consulates abroad with a minimum of documentation.

Why need to visit Suan Pluh for one year extensions, when you can have a generous muiltiple entry visa issued abroad?? If you have a multi it's a pleasure to visit Laos, Cambodia, Burma or Malaysia once in a while (4 times a year).

Stop whining! See the opportunities.

We will not be happy living in another country than LOS ! Forget Malaysia, PI or Rio. There are no alternatives, and Farangland does not appell to us.   ???

[Khun Larry]

Can someone please clarify the current requirement of depositing 800,000 baht Thai bank.

My question is (assuming no monthly income) is 800,000 baht required to be deposited each year OR does the balance need to be 800,000 when you renew your anual visa?

In one case you will need to transfer 800,000 per year. In the second case you will just need to top off the account (if you spend less than 800,000)

Thanks  ???

[Nam Kao]

Say you have 200,000USD in a US bank.

The new criteria is you need 40,000 / month income.

Would this satisfy the monthly requirement to get a 1 year

non immigrant 0 (I am married to a thai).

Does the 40,000 have to come from a job?

Thanks for any help.

Nam

[parryhandy]

If we don't qualify for one-year visa extensions in-country, we still can live here with a visa run every year, and a border run every 90 days *).

george wake up i think youll find these alternatives will be limited  thats the whole point of them to stop that.i would say that they will let you do so many then say right you must leave for say 3 months mimimum. unless you buy the prevalige card then you can do what you want.

i currently get a married person with child visa 90days.from what i read into it these wont even exsist or if they do i wont be able too continuously renew them.tell me im wrong please.

[Roger13]

Can someone please clarify the current requirement of depositing 800,000 baht Thai bank.

Khun Larry,

You only need to top up.

You do not have to send each year

Roger

[george]

Can someone please clarify the current requirement of depositing 800,000 baht Thai bank.

My question is (assuming no monthly income) is 800,000 baht required to be deposited each year OR does the balance need to be 800,000 when you renew your anual visa?

In one case you will need to transfer 800,000 per year. In the second case you will just need to top off the account (if you spend less than 800,000)

It must be 800,000 Baht in the account, verified by bank letter and copy of bank book, one week before you make your application. It can be almost zero the rest of the year.

Top up or not, the TOTAL amount must be 800K.

[molarman]

to parryhandy and others in the same position

i dont think that your position here will be compromised should the new regs. become law; my feeling is that these regs. are not aimed at people like yourselves.

i feel that stable family relationships will not be broken up,and that the rules will be applied with discretion, like almost everything else in thailand.

now might be the time for you and your family to get to know the local immigration officers.they can be surprisingly helpful.

my views in my earlier post may be middle class, i make no excuses for my upbringing, but my views do not extend to breaking up families or imposing impossible financial demands on them.my position in this country will also be made difficult by all this and i have recently invested a substantial amount to purchase a piece of land here but my thai wife tells me that there is nothing to worry about, (the cynical amongst you may say that there is certainly nothing for her to worry about), there are ways around most obstacles and upsets in life and that necessity is the mother of invention, as the thais prove to us on a daily basis.

i'm sorry to say  but your posts sound negative and bitter,lighten up,i dont think you would be asked to leave.

[ahddub]

dr_Pat_Pong,

Certainly the vast majority of these threads are emotional venting without deliberation of the letter of the proposals.  But would you agree that a possible cause of this venting may be, prior to PM Thaksin's government cleanup, due to past experiences of "stringency" of immigration rules by local immigration administrators?

Upon deliberation, one might have the opinion that the proposed rules might indeed be reasonable.  But who's to say that these might not be strictly enforced to local advantage?

For example, what constitutes Income?  Besides actual employment or a retirement program, would a fixed income portfolio (foreign based) suffice?  Or how about a personal "annuity", i.e., bringing in 40,000 baht per month from overseas savings?  How would you prove/document this?  I may have missed it but I didn't read that one could maintain 400,000 in the bank plus an additional 480,000 baht (40,000 per month of the duration of the visa).  The specificity of the terms of the proposal doesn't seem to allow for more flexible interpretation of the spirit of the rules.  The latitude for strict interpretation of the letter of the rules can lead to a deprivation of the freedom to manage one's own finances.

Might this lead to some former practices of a small minority of administrators' expectations of "greasing the wheels"?

I would hope that the Thai authorities might interpret the wild ravings of these replies as a need to more clearly communicate the spirit of the proposed rules.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I think the money or income are an either or item, and that will all be revealed soon. I think the Chiang Mai guy went off at the mouth and showed his bias against farang ( I'd guess he was more alluding to the non compliant people...ie is the 30 day border hoppers ) The ranting won't change any minds it is too offensive.

Income from any source that is provable will suffice. Written evidence from source needs an Embassy chop for Immigration

[samuisam]

Please be aware you must file a 'tor tor' 3 or 5 with BOT, when placing big money from overseas into a thai bank, or they will not let you remove it from the country.

[fox]

Hi Samuisam,

Please kindly give me more info on your "tot tor 3 " or 5 with Bot. What is it ? . Thanking you in advance. :cool:

[ChiangMaiThai]

surely when you look at the bigger picture, thousands of people like me, we surely represent more good than harm. Do we not?

Sure you do. But in the government's view you'd be contributing even more if you were in full-time work and offering skills in short supply; if you were an investor; or a short-stay tourist.

I am lucky to have skills that an employer here wants. Otherwise I'd be out the door. I know that, and that's why it's a privilege being here. By contrast, some posters here are carrying on as if they own the place. Yet what do they offer, apart from a modest income?

Personally, I can't imagine giving up my career in the West for the sake of an easy lifestyle here or anywhere else; it's just not worth it. I realise there are some long-stay westerners here who have made that very choice, but in doing so they must have known their position here was tenuous. This is someone else's land; your right to own property is limited, and you can't vote.

I am sure many westerners ask themselves whether the price of getting lost in Thailand is really worth it. If these measures come to pass a few more might be tempted to ask: What am I doing here? Why am I here?

Westerners are in an even more precarious position if they are here on short-term visas designed for tourists. Border hops, visa runs, fake visa stamps; is this really a dignified way to go? I don't think so.

Of course the government would see us as contributing more if we were a major inestor or working in the IT industry or what not. Nevertheless, my point is that we are doing no harm and do contribute some degree to the economy. We receive no benefits at the cost of Thai taxpayers. So once again mrentoul, how is a farang married to a thai with say only 20,000 baht a month income and 100,000 baht in savings such a burden to thailand that he should be denied the right to live with his loved ones?

Sure there should be some financial minimum. Maybe prove you can buy a plane ticket home should you run out of money and prove you can take care of the necceseties of your family. If you've been anywhere outside of Bangkok and the major cities, you know that this doesn't amount to 40,000 baht a month.

As far as your views regarding the farang who has given up his career in the West and is lost in Thailand, they are just your views. I know dozens of people who can't comprehend why you would choose to spend most of your time in an office, held down by a career while life passes you by. And that is of course just their views.

At the end of the day it is clear that if you have money, no matter what your other qualities, you are welcomed with opened arms here. if you do not, even if you have a family here, you are not welcome. I will make a note.