'Ruling out the foreigner'

[keestha]

Fully agree with what has been pointed out before, that those who if the proposed new law would take effect wouldn’t qualify for a regular one year visa extension anymore, could still stay in Thailand using one year multiple entry visas issued abroad.

It cannot be denied though that the trend is to make it more difficult for no so moneyed foreigners to stay permanently in this country, so one can wonder how long these multiple entry visas will remain relatively easily available.  

One more thing: in how far can be counted on the “grandfather clause principle”, can working, retired or married foreigners who already at least once have obtained a one year extension keep on getting yearly extensions if they meet the requirements as stated in the old law, if the new law would take effect?  There must be precedents showing how consequently the grandfather clause principle is being applied under Thai law. Legal experts, please shine your lights on this if you didn’t become too tired wrestling yourselves through this thread.

[dclaryjr]

    Maybe in a few years I'll look back and say it was a big mistake and I should have listed to those people on the Thai Forum, but for now I believe it's the right thing to do. I believe in my dream and none of the posts here are going to discourage me.

    Good luck to all, follow your dreams and do the best you can

Howard  

 

Good luck, Howard!  I have a house being built in the Khao Yai area (Phupimarn) right now but living in it full time is still 5 years or more down the road.  Sure hope it doesn't turn out I've built a nice weekend retreat for my inlaws!  

Dave

Corpus Christi, TX

[dclaryjr]

(hopefully our Col.

in CM made a mistake when he said "and") Income Levels.

That word AND is the real killer in this. I have no problem meeting the annual requirement with my military pension and U. S. social security (unless the exchange rate REALLY tanks).  However keeping that much money in the bank would be a killer.

Dave Clary

Corpus Christi, Tx

[jonwilly]

As I have said several times before - It gives great discretion to the Officers who can then favourably consider those in their eyes who are Respectable/ Respectful applicants.

And give a Thumbs down to Loud Mouthed / Arrogant / Rule Quoters.

Roger

How true. Judgeing from the response of sum members of this board we can see something of the problems had with sum overseas residents.

i do wonder about the original interview. was it held in Thai and translated or was the conversation in English or a mix of Thai/English?

All sources of potential problems.

jon

[DaveYo]

I agree with you Dr. PP.  Time to take a rest.  Believe me I am not rambling here but, what the heck, I think everybody has the shakes and pose many questions that concern each their own.

As to the two questions I posted, I think that is important to think about because sooner or later we will be asked.

:blues:

[BillD]

Can someone explain how to open a bank account in Thailand if I was to consider to retire here.I understand I would require a work permit to open the account but as I have retire I would not have a permit.

Thanks

BillD

[Sunbelt Asia]

Can someone explain how to open a bank account in Thailand if I was to consider to retire here.I understand I would require a work permit to open the account but as I have retire I would not have a permit.

Bill, we have helped hundreds of people in your situation. Simply open a savings account...no work permit needed. Be sure to ask for a Tor Tor Som when your funds are transferred from overseas. If you need an introduction to a bank in Thailand, our firm will be happy to help with no charge to you.

[tutsiwarrior]

For what it's worth, my view is that the new immigration laws will cause a considerable disturbance not just for falangs, their families and businesses but for Thais that will also be affected. Falangs are a big business in Thailand and if the disaffected were to pack up and leave a lot of locals, Toxin's gang included would see their incomes contract. Asians like to put on a big display whenever there appears to be a problem with current policy...someone must have thought that the present law was either 'soft on terrorism' for which we have the American government to blame, or that by not following the example of outrageously corrupt governments like Indonesia where immigration is a huge industry poor Thai civil servants will not receive their due from the resource. Let's face it...a few well placed baht here and there will ensure that a person's status quo will not be disturbed regardless of cage rattling from the critters.

Rather than pulling up stakes and unleashing barbs at the obvious villains I suggest we follow Dr PP's advice and wait and see. For whatever legislation His Majesty may sign there can also be another one to reverse it.

In the worse case it would be a matter of transfering all ownership of property and businesses to one's Thai wife and to settle for a perpetual 90 day tourist visa with the required exit if one did not want to tie up lots of cash with the new banking requirements. Presently with a 'non-imm-o' visa the exit is required anyway.

Forgive me if I missed something from this considerably long winded thread.

(plachon...duck husbandry is looking more attractive all the time...)

[TRIPxCORE]

Let's face it...a few well placed baht here and there will ensure that a person's status quo will not be disturbed regardless of cage rattling from the critters.

Regarding this issue, can anyone share experiences of times when they have "greased the palms" (bribed) Thai officials.  I have never done it in Thailand before and would like some parameters to know if I need to partake in the activity.  Must it be very discreet and passed to them quickly and quietly?  Do you fold some bills in your palm and shake their hand to pass it off?  Tell me any monetary numbers you have forked over to help out your causes.  As this might have to become a common practice for us soon, we should start to spread some info about it.

[plachon]

This thread has zig-zagged all over the place and people's replies have reflected (not surprisingly), their own individual doubts and fears as to how they will be affected. however, make no mistake that many people will be affected when these new regulations are implemented (and I believe the source is high enough to suggest they will), that making advance preparation and contingency plans is prudent, to say the least. If that means postponing buying that house or bringing over a pile of capital 'til after next year, then I would say that could be wise. And if this impacts measurably on the property market in certain popular areas, then that would be a good signal to at least local authorities, that overseas potential reseidents do make a difference. however, for the scattered and statistically insignificant spouses of Thais up-country are affected and gradually pull-out as a result, then unfortunately, we're not numerous enough to make a big enough difference to more than a few immediately around us. It's just a sad, economic fact of life, that the racist and elitist law-makers can afford to ignore us. But Pattaya, Chiang Mai Phuket, and a few other localities are  something different and it is these areas that will be the litmus test of future events.

So, you you're coming round to ducks eventually are you Tutsi. don't say you haven't been warned!

[tutsiwarrior]

tripxcore...I'm not suggesting that you should approach your objective with cash in hand...better to make inquiries or hire a lawyer for this purpose. Major-general so-and-so at the local immigration office if he saw you comin' wouldn't then be satisfied until he had the shoes off your feet. No doubt when the new rules kick in there will be all sorts of ways to circumvent...that's what they want and will be waiting for your proposals with the usual big smile. Pay a lawyer for this purpose that has a bigger smile than the general's.

But...lets not cave in...desperate falangs with loads of money to spend will help to institutionalise the greater corruption that shall surely result from this business. I see it as a short term measure to take the load off until things stabilise.

'oh...sometimes I might get drunk

walk like a DUCK and smell like a skunk...'

plachon...was Bob Dylan trying to tell us something?

[Whiplash]

Quote (dr_Pat_Pong @ Sep. 06 2003,07:59)

I think the money or income are an either or item, and that will all be revealed soon. I think the Chiang Mai guy went off at the mouth and showed his bias against farang ( I'd guess he was more alluding to the non compliant people...ie is the 30 day border hoppers ) The ranting won't change any minds it is too offensive.

--------------------

Well,  earlier this week I went to the Imm. Office here in ChiangMai about getting a 1 year marriage visa, I dont have the required money in my Thai bank account, but I have a letter of income certified both by my Embassy and the Foreign affairs office in BKK, it certifies that I have an income just over 600k bht, though its per year my embassy did a typo and it says I have that amount every month.. hehe, i'm not complaining.. it got the right stamps on it..

But that letter was not enough.. I have to show the 250k amount in the bank before anything could be done.. high income or not..  so when you can't show the whole requested amount in the bank the talk of a combination of bank assets end income would suffice was wishful thinking as I'm concerned.

[Aitit]

I find the headline is good for heating up minds, that makes people( like me) reading quickly, instead of carefully.

It made me overlooking the line that these NEWS is for the ONE YEAR VISA ONLY.

On page 11 of this mega-thread, George brought some light back into my life, no, I don't have to splitt up with my family,

I just continue with my one year multible entry B , leaving Thailand every 3 months, that's not to bad, or?

So you worried fathers, whats the problem, why are you not able to care for your families any more , because of the new proposed law?

Don't get me wrong, I think the new ideas are quite strong, and if the Thinktank in BKK could reconsider them, that will be highly appreciated, but it's not that the foreigners are kicked out of the country, right?

Many strong words against Thais and Thailand did not need to be spoken out, if the above would have been considered well.

Was it so difficult to understand what the DR.said ?

George, is it possible to get a link to the new proposals where they are written in thai?

I'd love to show it to Thai friends, but not in that english.

???

[george]

On page 11 of this mega-thread, George brought some light back into my life, no, I don't have to splitt up with my family,

I just continue with my one year multible entry B , leaving Thailand every 3 months, that's not to bad, or?

Right! If you don't qualify for yearly extensions, just go for the Non-Immigrant visa with multiple entries. Valid for 12+3 months (nearly 15 months) with border runs every 90 days.

The easiest way to get it is in the UK, US and Australia. Sad to say, can be hopless to obtain in neigboring Asian countries.

[Aitit]

Never had any problems since 5 years I get my Non Immigrant B Visa, multible entrys, from Penang.

The last 2 times with express service, even at the same day.

Back to the topic:

Goerge, I still would like to know, where I can get this new law proposals in thai language?

[george]

where I can get this new law proposals in thai language?

For the time beeing we only have it in the English translation.

[Axel]

165 replies! Most of them spontaneous and a bit negative. As farang we are not making the rules, so just let's have a look and see what's really in finally. Thailand is not better and not worse on immigration rules than most other countries, I know. Just an example, try to work and live in Switzerland. Next to impossible. Buy or build a house there? Even a guy like Michael Schumacher was at his first location refused by "people's vote". I lived myself (and worked) in Japan, in Hong Kong, Taiwan. Try to get a work permit or a long stay visa. I don't want to bother you with the details. Thailand wants to make some rules. OK fine! Read them and find your way through. Go down to the immigration office (I hate it but in person is the best) and you usually get what you want. If you cannot get it, there are other ways. (I did for ten years visa runs in another country) At the end, knowing Thailand, I believe you are still as much welcome as today.

[Larry]

Connecting the dots......

Isn't it interested that the new visa rule announcement comes just before the campaign to sell Thailand Privilege Cards for one million baht each!

I am willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that the way around the new draconian regs will go through the Thailand Privilege Cards and its "fast track" visa processing.

I just hope we will not have to pay a million baht just to get the status quo!

Maybe I am cynical...but what else do you expect from a former NY lawyer.

[pschef]

Multiple entry one 12 + 3 has been the way I have been getting my visa for 3 years, I get it in Penang. I did have a one year extention in 1998 plus a work permit last year now expired, Im back on a new 12 + 3. I wonder if I would be eligible for the granddad clause? almost in LOS for six years, been married for 12 and have one child. I enjoy my trips to Penang, but it will be more expensive now I beleive. Hiked from 1.000  to 5,000 Baht, still more easy than going through all that red tape. :cool:

[lopburi3]

Hiked from 1.000  to 5,000 Baht, still more easy than going through all that red tape.

When younger I thought the same.  But there really is no red tape after the first extension.  And even then it is only copies of passport pages/id card/home register/landing card/bank passbook/letter and your wife to sign paperwork with a short interview.  Takes less than an hour for most, even with a wait in queue.  You have to return a few weeks later to get final stamp but that only takes 5 minutes.  Following years only require copies of new passport pages/bank passbook and letter from bank (and the wife to say how good you are).  A lot less total time than the Penang trip.  Keep those trips up (alone?) and someone might suspect another reason.

[pschef]

I agree Lopburi, but if you cant meet this income requirement what to do? I have money in the Thai bank, my income however at the moment is nil. I work a little bit part time Teacher, that cant be declared. I guess you know why, my pension is a long way off. Even then I doubt it would be 40.000, so my only way is penang. Its only once every 15 months, so I hardly think that would raise eyebrows? 90 day walkover to Burma only 2 hours from my home, can pick up some cheap items over there too. Dont get me wrong I had intended to extend this time, but now I must think twice ???

[MaiChai]

Can I just make one point. There was a reasonably well founded rumour going around recently that they may be doing away with one year visas, eg the non imm 'o' multiple entry. Remember these rumours often become reality (things get leaked before being officially released). This would really plug the loop hole allowing those who do not wish to show money at the bank being able to stay for 90 days at a time, doing visa runs, and the yearly trip abroad to get a new visa. Thus, this would make it impossible to stay without showing the sufficient funds, and would make the tourist visa route difficult with a limit on the number of consecutive stays you can make. What I am saying is this would prevent poorer foreigners from staying, and re enforced the Thai view that they only want rich foreigners. This is really ugly, and I feel sorry for the hardship it would create between families. So suggest holding fire on making any plans to move to Thailand until the full picture has unfolded. One thing is certain, many changes are underway.

What I don't understand is what is the motivation for making these changes? What is the underlying reason?

[pschef]

Why would they have bothered to just put the price of that visa up to 5000 if the intend to abolish it? its a bit of a contradiction. I really hope this post is wrong, a rumour from where I ask???

[MaiChai]

pschef, you are too quick for me! These fees were agreed some time back (3 years ago?), but were put on hold. I'm not trying to stir up trouble, I'm just saying be careful.

[lopburi3]

I agree Lopburi, but if you cant meet this income requirement what to do?

Misunderstood.  You are doing the right thing.  Just did not want anyone who has the qualifications to feel that the "red tape" is excessive.  The requirements may be hard to meet but the paperwork is not that great; and the paperwork is what I assume when red tape is mentioned.

[Artisi]

Why would they have bothered to just put the price of that visa up to 5000 if the intend to abolish it? its a bit of a contradiction. I really hope this post is wrong, a rumour from where I ask???

Not to mention the fee of  Bht 95700 for a residence permit if married to a Thai or Bht 191400 if not married to a Thai.

To any normal clear thinking logical person this doesn't make any sense at all to increase visa / residency fee's out of all proportion and then on the other hand probably exclude most of the people eligible and who would be forced to pay these new amount by wanting unrealistic bank balances and monthly incomes. But this is Thailand, and it doesn't have to make sense as it is probably being organised by two different Government departments who at best don't talk with each other or who are arch rivals in the control of foreigners - but who cares what the other is going - from what I've seen in my few years here the short answer is  --nobody --.  Just push ahead with somebody's bright ideas and let someone else suffer the consequences later.

So, lets wait and see - this is this week and who knows what next week will bring - maybe banning foreigners from having sex with Thai's - this removes one problem - within 1 year it will reduce the number of people able to claim support of children as a reason to stay in Thailand

[plachon]

What I am saying is this would prevent poorer foreigners from staying, and re enforced the Thai view that they only want rich foreigners. This is really ugly, and I feel sorry for the hardship it would create between families.

What I don't understand is what is the motivation for making these changes? What is the underlying reason?

I think you know the underlying reason already MaiChai. It's been stated enough by plenty of folks these past few weeks.

But it's not only families that may be forced to upsticks as a result of these changes, if and when implemented. I know an elderly American gentlemen, living in the Isaan hinterland for the past 9 years, who practices a form of self-sufficiency called "permaculture". Totally peacefully, he consumes little, grows most of what he eats and practices the King's philosophy 100 %. The PM would hate this, as he's not adding much to  the cash economy and is not bringing in large amounts of loot, even though he's soaking up lots of other people's CO2 with all the trees he's planted. Thing is, will he be allowed to stay under the new criteria? He has a retirement visa, so satisfies the present immigration rules, but I fear he may be ruled out if the crossbar changes height. Just one more potential example of an "undesirable" in the new order.

[ChiangMaiThai]

When people try to put Thailand's new trend in immigration laws in perspective by giving examples of other countries where visa requirements are tough, I think they may be forgeting an important point. When a foreigner stays long term in a country like the US, Switzerland, Australia etc. there is a very real risk of him becoming a burden to the country. He may take jobs away from the local people. He may be entitled to benefits at the expense of the local taxpayers. In this sense, it would be expected that these countries would have tough immigration laws for those wanting to stay long term.

But in my mind, Thailand is a totally different story. What jobs does the foreigner pose a threat to here? What benefits does the foreigner get at the Thai taxpayers expense? What harm is done?

I am not saying it is my God given right to stay in Thailand. It is not my country and I don't make the rules. I am saying that I do not understand the logic behind tougher immigration laws which may prevent a number of foreigners from staying long term. Tourism is obviously an important component of the economy here. So why not also promote 'extended tourism' and actually cater to the foreigner who wishes to stay long term? Of course do the background checks. make sure he his not a terrorist, but forget about requiring 40,000 baht a month income. At the most, require they prove they have a plane ticket home should they run out of money. Can anyone explain to me the negative implications of doing so and how Thailand benefits or protects itself by making stricter immigration laws based on financial means?

[Dah fahrang]

A lot of hysteria here. Perpsective needed.

The reference in the article was to "foreigners".

My understanding of a foreigner goes beyong the definition of farang (a description reserved exclusivelyfor white, Caucasian foreigners) to include all the thousands upon thousands of non-farang living in Thailand, openly abusing marriage rules, residence rules or just plainly in the country illegally.

Gentlemen, this thread really has become parochial and totally  introvert. There is a bigger picture here, which goes beyond the immediacy of the relatively small and insignificant farang (in the true sense of the word) population. Some of that bigger picture is alluded to in earlier, less hysterical postings.

Those of you with Thai partners need only ask your spouse how many people they hear of who are duped into dubious marriages of convenience, (pretend marriages to foreigners of EVERY description) or how many Burmese, Bangladeshi, Indian, Kampuchean there are living and working in their home districts illegally. These are whom any change in rules really targets. Of course, if the net catches 'farang' who too, indulge in sailing close to wind, or openly abuse the system, then fair cop! (No pun intended).

Tam cha cha! Ma'i jai ron!

[pschef]

Hey Guys N’ Gals a new twist on this subject, my friend a retired man farang living in Thailand for the last 20 years. He went to Mae Sai today; he went to make his regular visit for a stamp. He also wanted o do a walk over to buy a few bits and pieces, he was refused by immigration. He was told yes you can go, but you must pay 1000 Baht visa fee. Then when you return, you will be classified as a normal tourist. That means you must start all your extension procedure again. He inquired about other travelers; he was informed all walk over must now pay the 1000 Baht visa fee.

What does this mean, even people with 12+3 non O must pay this fee?

It seems we are not so well informed after all this talk, I wonder can anyone tell us the full facts.

???