Tenure = Expertise

[sbk]

Not necessarily, jd. But there are also lots of other cues to watch for as well, body language etc.

Living where I do, and the way I do, I've learned to read some of these cues, but I have also learned alot of the relationships among people here. Not all, obviously, since there are just too darn many of them to follow, but I am pretty good at reading a situation among the locals. But, without language and the ability to understand what people are saying, none of the rest of the understanding will follow.

What people do and say in their own language in surroundings in which they feel totally comfortable can usually be quite different from the same person in another language and a different setting.

An example, I know a Thai man who has been ripping off farang for the 20 years that I have lived here. In english, and with foreigners, he comes across as charming, interesting, friendly and yes, even trustworthy. But, put him among the local crowd, speaking Thai and his true devious nature emerges. He still looks pretty normal, and if you couldn't understand what he was saying, you probably wouldn't know what was going on. But the truth is, he is generally disliked and very few will say more than a few words in passing to him at local events. And that also shows in body language. But, if you can't understand the language, and can't get to know people while they are behaving more naturally, how can you then also learn the subtle cues of body language? Or the complexity of their social interactions?

[highdiver]

Not necessarily, jd. But there are also lots of other cues to watch for as well, body language etc.

Living where I do, and the way I do, I've learned to read some of these cues, but I have also learned alot of the relationships among people here. Not all, obviously, since there are just too darn many of them to follow, but I am pretty good at reading a situation among the locals. But, without language and the ability to understand what people are saying, none of the rest of the understanding will follow.

What people do and say in their own language in surroundings in which they feel totally comfortable can usually be quite different from the same person in another language and a different setting.

An example, I know a Thai man who has been ripping off farang for the 20 years that I have lived here. In english, and with foreigners, he comes across as charming, interesting, friendly and yes, even trustworthy. But, put him among the local crowd, speaking Thai and his true devious nature emerges. He still looks pretty normal, and if you couldn't understand what he was saying, you probably wouldn't know what was going on. But the truth is, he is generally disliked and very few will say more than a few words in passing to him at local events. And that also shows in body language. But, if you can't understand the language, and can't get to know people while they are behaving more naturally, how can you then also learn the subtle cues of body language? Or the complexity of their social interactions?

I agree with you 100%

there is so much to understanding a culture, customs, social interactions, etc... and the first step is to have an interest and a will,, furthermore if one wishes to become a part of the community then one, in my opinion, should dedicate the time and effort to learn it.

you may not understand everything but in my opinion, its better then living in a place and being completely ignorant of your surroundings.

[jdinasia]

Not necessarily, jd. But there are also lots of other cues to watch for as well, body language etc.

Living where I do, and the way I do, I've learned to read some of these cues, but I have also learned alot of the relationships among people here. Not all, obviously, since there are just too darn many of them to follow, but I am pretty good at reading a situation among the locals. But, without language and the ability to understand what people are saying, none of the rest of the understanding will follow.

What people do and say in their own language in surroundings in which they feel totally comfortable can usually be quite different from the same person in another language and a different setting.

An example, I know a Thai man who has been ripping off farang for the 20 years that I have lived here. In english, and with foreigners, he comes across as charming, interesting, friendly and yes, even trustworthy. But, put him among the local crowd, speaking Thai and his true devious nature emerges. He still looks pretty normal, and if you couldn't understand what he was saying, you probably wouldn't know what was going on. But the truth is, he is generally disliked and very few will say more than a few words in passing to him at local events. And that also shows in body language. But, if you can't understand the language, and can't get to know people while they are behaving more naturally, how can you then also learn the subtle cues of body language? Or the complexity of their social interactions?

SBK ---

My point above was that by the vocabulary used you can tell the relative social status of the people speaking in relationship to each other. (In Thai) How one asks "do you know ___?" or respond "I don't know." tells much about the social status of the people speaking in most circumstances. This may be more true with Central Thai than with Southern Thai.

[sbk]

Perhaps, I only speak the dialect of where I live and it is a very casual affair. Formality is usually unnecessary when dealing with people you have known your entire life.

[girlx]

How long does one need to be here to earn some stripes? How much of it is time served and how much experience?

i lived in the US for the first 23 years of my life and American culture can still surprise me. i think people are always learning, and revising former opinions of people and culture wherever they are in the world. also, peoples' experiences are different based on their demographic (age? woman or man? single or attached? introvert or extrovert? etc.), where they are located in thailand, and who they are surrounded by at what time. so everyone will sum up those experiences in their own way. however, there is a definite progression from "tourist or newbie" with rose-colored glasses on, to an expat who is more realistic and has learned the basics about the culture and language. in fact there are stages that people pass through in this process (if i remember right they are fascination and worship, to anger and disillusionment, to acceptance, or something like that) and i think that progression happens over a couple of years. i find it hard to take people who have been in thailand for under a year seriously.

if you can't understand the language, and can't get to know people while they are behaving more naturally, how can you then also learn the subtle cues of body language? Or the complexity of their social interactions?

totally agree with this too, there is always so much going on under the surface in thailand, and i think people from more straightforward cultures take awhile to catch on to this. certainly knowing the language helps, but it goes even deeper than that.

Edited February 24, 2009 by girlx

[Ijustwannateach]

It seems to me that Thai people and Thai language are highly socially contextual. That means, while knowing what is being said is important, it is not sufficient. You also need to know the social relationships, hierarchy, personal histories, and immediate and distant background to the situation under scrutiny, before you could really be said to 'understand' what is going on. While to some extent this is true in all social situations, the greater contextual basis of communication here makes extended understanding more critical for comprehension than for similar situations occurring, for example, in English.

Hmm.. what kind of example could I offer? Suppose a person is asking another person for help. It would be important to know how obligated the other person was, which person was higher in the hierarchy (although this would be displayed in the language and body language), how much of an imposition such a favour might be for both persons, and possibly a whole host of factors about past relationships not only between those two individuals but also among their extended family and friends.

So, while understanding that the request is for help is at least necessary linguistically, it is not sufficient socially to really know what is going on.

Sorry, but in the case you cite .... the language being used TELLS all those factors.

Actually, it tells one of those factors, possibly, but not necessarily- the one that I already mentioned in my post. I've highlighted it for you because you appear to have missed my mention of it first time around. Knowledge of the imposition, obligation level, history of the individuals and their families and so forth- not at all obvious or necessary that that would be explicit in the language for the request. Language and culture are very complex things- language alone is not enough to get the whole story- anywhere in the world, but not least Asia or even Thailand.

[Ijustwannateach]

if you can't understand the language, and can't get to know people while they are behaving more naturally, how can you then also learn the subtle cues of body language? Or the complexity of their social interactions?

totally agree with this too, there is always so much going on under the surface in thailand, and i think people from more straightforward cultures take awhile to catch on to this. certainly knowing the language helps, but it goes even deeper than that.

Exactly.

[Mark Wolfe]

I agree that knowing the language is a good springboard. However, I am thinking of all the people I have met from the US and other places who were "expert" in triangular relations between China, Taiwan and the US. Some of these people, well-respected in their fields, cannot actually speak Mandarin. They are paid very well for their insights into these matters and yet, by most people's definition here, they don't really know dick.

I wonder if the Thai man who SBK refers to as cheating people isn't known by his deeds more than his speech.

And by the way, wouldn't it be a public service to at least imtimate who this person is?

[sbk]

Nope, I live here thanks.

And besides, wouldn't make a darn bit of difference. I've attempted to intervene in the past only to be told to mind my own business that he was a lovely guy. Most people feel they know best until they get proven otherwise.

And its all part and parcel Mark. Deeds, speech, behavior. You can't understand the one without grasping the basics of the others.

[Ijustwannateach]

I never did actually address the OP! I would say, of all the people I know- whom I would claim to be foreign 'gurus' or 'oracles' of one sort or another here in Thai-related matters- I would include most of the mods in some way or another, with a special emphasis (for a combination of language skills and longterm and current living and working in-situ mainly with Thais) on current mods SBK, Tywais, and Sabaijai and emeritus mods Samran and Ramdomchances- though I hasten to add I do not by any means know all of the current or former mods equally, so this is by no means a comprehensive list.

[Theyreallrubbish]

Funny to hear people say that if you haven't lived life in Thailand in the exact same way they have you can't call yourself an expert.

Just as funny as when I meet foreigners in bars and they start telling me all about the Thai people and what they're like and how Thailand works and they've been here 6 months and spent most of that time in a bar.

Thailand is a hierarchical society with limited and formalised interaction between the levels. The way the different levels behave and their cultures have significant differences and your experience will differ based on which level you are living in. So there are really several different Thailands. Probably the same as if you attempted to understand English culture living on a council estate as compared to living in South Kensington, except the separation is much more extreme here.

And the tourist areas have the culture of the lowest level.

Just my opinion of course based on my personal experience which has been primarily from interacting with the elite, which I freely admit means I view Thailand through that prism which gives you a separatist view of the mass of the population.

[TopperHarley]

Learning the language is a must!

You need to know what people are saying, if it's slang or not and where the words originate from.

Some guy who hangs around in bars and with bargirls is going to pickup some dreadful language...

Imagine one day he meets a thai girl from a good background, goes home to have a meal with her parents and during the meal announces the meal is "sep liderrr..." and that he "bouadd keyyy..." and needs the bathroom!....

Oh Dear!

Topper.

[sbk]

I never did actually address the OP! I would say, of all the people I know- whom I would claim to be foreign 'gurus' or 'oracles' of one sort or another here in Thai-related matters- I would include most of the mods in some way or another, with a special emphasis (for a combination of language skills and longterm and current living and working in-situ mainly with Thais) on current mods SBK, Tywais, and Sabaijai and emeritus mods Samran and Ramdomchances- though I hasten to add I do not by any means know all of the current or former mods equally, so this is by no means a comprehensive list.

Don't include me in that list IJWT. guru or oracle I am most certainly not. The longer I live here, the more I learn

[Mark Wolfe]

I might add that I am guessing that Thailand (the Thais) is the same as Taiwan (the Chinese) in that no matter how long you stay or how well you speak the language, you are ALWAYS an outsider (or as the literal Chinese for us goes: outside country person). You may be part of the "culture" but only as the dog act in a circus of monkeys.