Pairing ไว้ With A Verb

[kokesaat]

I’m having difficultly understanding the use of ไว้ when included with a verb, perhaps a fresh explanation will help me see the light.

For example, in the sentence, ผมจอดรถไว้ที่ตลาด, my understanding is that the ไว้ serves to show that you parked and left your vehicle at the market. It also seems to show that the action happened in the past. A friend of mine said, if I didn’t include the ไว้, she’d understand what I was trying to say (parking the vehicle), but wouldn’t understand when the action occurred, whereas, adding the ไว้ tells her the action has already taken place. She added, if I said, ผมจะจอดรถที่ตลาด, she’d understand that I was “intending to park my vehicle at the market” and that the ไว้ in this case was optional (she said preferable, but optional).

What’s the difference in meaning between the following two sentences?

เมล็ดที่เขาปลูกไม่งอกขึ้นมา

เมล็ดที่เขาปลูกไว้ไม่งอกขึ้นมา

My only grammar reference for this is in Thai Reference Grammar by Higbie and Thinsan, p. 104, but that reference merely says ไว้ or ทิ้งไว้ are included to show that an object is being left or kept in a place or that something is being kept in mind.

Can anyone provide another source of info or other examples that might make it easier to understand the role of ไว้ in the sentences?

Thanks

[mangkorn]

It can also reinforce the verb, e.g. ปลอดภัยไว้ก่อน - "Safety First"

Or it can refer to something expected to occur soon, e.g., ไว้เจอกัน - "See you"

ไว้ is a pretty versatile word.

[tgeezer]

It can also reinforce the verb, e.g. ปลอดภัยไว้ก่อน - "Safety First"

Or it can refer to something expected to occur soon, e.g., ไว้เจอกัน - "See you"

ไว้ is a pretty versatile word.

The answer to the difference is one has ไว้ and one doesn't. It doesn't matter whether you use it or not. It is a verb meaning to put in place something akin to วาง. นำนีัไว้บนโต๊ะ

Used after a verb it adds completness เก็บไว้ in the above examples it is a short version ปลอดภัยเอาไว้ก่อน เอาไว้เจิอกัน(วันหน้า) the verb is often dropped in everyday speech.

[DavidHouston]

I’m having difficultly understanding the use of ไว้ when included with a verb, perhaps a fresh explanation will help me see the light.

For example, in the sentence, ผมจอดรถไว้ที่ตลาด, my understanding is that the ไว้ serves to show that you parked and left your vehicle at the market. It also seems to show that the action happened in the past. A friend of mine said, if I didn’t include the ไว้, she’d understand what I was trying to say (parking the vehicle), but wouldn’t understand when the action occurred, whereas, adding the ไว้ tells her the action has already taken place. She added, if I said, ผมจะจอดรถที่ตลาด, she’d understand that I was “intending to park my vehicle at the market” and that the ไว้ in this case was optional (she said preferable, but optional).

What’s the difference in meaning between the following two sentences?

เมล็ดที่เขาปลูกไม่งอกขึ้นมา

เมล็ดที่เขาปลูกไว้ไม่งอกขึ้นมา

My only grammar reference for this is in Thai Reference Grammar by Higbie and Thinsan, p. 104, but that reference merely says ไว้ or ทิ้งไว้ are included to show that an object is being left or kept in a place or that something is being kept in mind.

Can anyone provide another source of info or other examples that might make it easier to understand the role of ไว้ in the sentences?

Thanks

See "Thai An Essential Grammar" by David Smyth, page 72, Section 5.7.10. He says, in part,

"The verb ไว้ occurs after a verb of action, or verb phrase, to convey the idea that the action is being done for future use or reference."

This statement is followed by five examples.

[mangkorn]

The answer to the difference is one has ไว้ and one doesn't. It doesn't matter whether you use it or not.

Huh?

[Jay_Jay]

There is a difference in the meaning ...

When I teach the word 'ไว้' I have people close their eyes and extend their arms out in front of them - then imagine the verb or thing that they want to talk about is a tangible thing sitting in their hands - then they place it ไว้ up on a shelf in the knowledge that they'd come back to it / it was only up there temporarily.

While the meanings ไว้ can give can go a lot broader and deeper than that, it works as a good starting point to get students starting to use it properly.

จอดรถไว้

ฝากเงินไว้

ฝากน้องไว้

เก็บตังค์ไว้

อยู่เลนซ้ายไว้

เก็บปากไว้กินข้าว

ไว้คุยกัน

ฯลฯ

Edited February 14, 2009 by Jay_Jay

[5tash]

This is quite a common construction using the verb ไว้;

ทนไม่ไว้แล้ว - can't withstand/tolerate it any longer.

Often shortened to ไม่ไว้แล้ว

[Jay_Jay]

I think that might actually be -

ทนไม่ไหว - ไหว meaning to withstand

[5tash]

Yes, you are correct Jay_Jay, it should be ไหว.

I actually Googled "ทนไม่ไว้แล้ว" before posting and got a load of hits, so I assumed it was correct. I shouldn't have assumed.

Thanks also to David for pointing out my error.

[Groongthep]

When I teach the word 'ไว้' I have people close their eyes and extend their arms out in front of them - then imagine the verb or thing that they want to talk about is a tangible thing sitting in their hands - then they place it ไว้ up on a shelf in the knowledge that they'd come back to it / it was only up there temporarily.

Excellent helpful explaination by Jay-Jay.

Here are a couple of examples of how it is used used in everyday conversation:

1.) You've just walked into a hotel and tell the receptionist you have reserved a room already.

ผมจองห้องไว้แล้วครับ

2.) Two days later you ask the receptionist if you can leave a bag with them for awhile while you make a short trip upcountry intending to return soon.

ขอฝากกระเป๋าไว้ที่นี่ได้ไหมครับ?

As Jay-Jay explained ไว้ conveys the idea in the first example that the reservation was made in the past with the intention of being used in the near future. Likewise with leaving the bag; Using ไว้ gives the impression that it is being left at reception with the intent of being reclaimed when you return from your short trip.

Edited February 14, 2009 by Groongthep

[tgeezer]

The answer to the difference is one has ไว้ and one doesn't. It doesn't matter whether you use it or not.

Huh?

Why you keep saying 'Huh' twice now! Trying to wind me up?

Better to explain the difference yourself. All that is needed is to translate: ไว้ ก. บางทีใช้ประกอบท้ายกริยาบางคำเพื่อให้ความสมบูณ์หรือหนักแน่นยิ่งขึ้น then translate เอานี่ไปปลูกไว้ and เอานี่ไปปูก into English, off you go!

oh you will need this : ปลูก ก. เอาต้นไม้หรือเมลด หน่อ หัว เป็นต้น ใส่ลงในดินเพื่อให้งอกหรือให้เจริญเตืบโต

[kokesaat]

ขอบคุณที่ความช่วยเหลือและความคิด

[kokesaat]

There is a difference in the meaning ...

When I teach the word 'ไว้' I have people close their eyes and extend their arms out in front of them - then imagine the verb or thing that they want to talk about is a tangible thing sitting in their hands - then they place it ไว้ up on a shelf in the knowledge that they'd come back to it / it was only up there temporarily.

While the meanings ไว้ can give can go a lot broader and deeper than that, it works as a good starting point to get students starting to use it properly.

จอดรถไว้

ฝากเงินไว้

ฝากน้องไว้

เก็บตังค์ไว้

อยู่เลนซ้ายไว้

เก็บปากไว้กินข้าว

ไว้คุยกัน

ฯลฯ

I used your examples during my Thai class today. I thought I had the translation down pretty well for all of them, including the เก็บปากไว้กินข้าว which I couldn't quite figure out.....เก็บไว้..meaning 'to put away'. My teacher clarified it by saying it's a strong way of saying 'Zip it!' as in 'Shut up'.

Thanks again for your examples.

[tgeezer]

There is a difference in the meaning ...

When I teach the word 'ไว้' I have people close their eyes and extend their arms out in front of them - then imagine the verb or thing that they want to talk about is a tangible thing sitting in their hands - then they place it ไว้ up on a shelf in the knowledge that they'd come back to it / it was only up there temporarily.

While the meanings ไว้ can give can go a lot broader and deeper than that, it works as a good starting point to get students starting to use it properly.

จอดรถไว้

ฝากเงินไว้

ฝากน้องไว้

เก็บตังค์ไว้

อยู่เลนซ้ายไว้

เก็บปากไว้กินข้าว

ไว้คุยกัน

ฯลฯ

I used your examples during my Thai class today. I thought I had the translation down pretty well for all of them, including the เก็บปากไว้กินข้าว which I couldn't quite figure out.....เก็บไว้..meaning 'to put away'. My teacher clarified it by saying it's a strong way of saying 'Zip it!' as in 'Shut up'.

Thanks again for your examples.

I talked about it to one of my golf partners, they are a different generation and don't disagree, but thought that คนไช้ อาจจะก่ลาวว่า "ทำไว้แล้ว" โดยแสดงว่าเขาทำดี The definition is in the dictionary used to be an adverb meaning roughly 'value added' or 'completed well', and could be used as a verb meaning เก็บ if the subject was known ie. Q.ของใช้อยู่ที่ไหน A.ไว้ในหีบ It doesn't matter what it is really since its position is irregular. It is largely meaningless it would appear from those examples but does add euphony.

[tgeezer]

Why you keep saying 'Huh' twice now! Trying to wind me up?

Better to explain the difference yourself. All that is needed is to translate: ไว้ ก. บางทีใช้ประกอบท้ายกริยาบางคำเพื่อให้ความสมบูณ์หรือหนักแน่นยิ่งขึ้น then translate เอานี่ไปปลูกไว้ and เอานี่ไปปูก into English, off you go!

oh you will need this : ปลูก ก. เอาต้นไม้หรือเมลด หน่อ หัว เป็นต้น ใส่ลงในดินเพื่อให้งอกหรือให้เจริญเตืบโต

I suppose we should file this in the too difficult bin.