Experience With Hi-fi / Turntable Repair In Bangkok

[Upcountry]

I'm looking for feedback from others who have had hi-fi equipment repaired at the Mr. Balance shop on the top floor of Phantip Plaza. Did you get good results or the run-around? Was the price reasonable or outlandish?

Here's my experience, so far:

On the advice of a TV member, I hauled two Thorens turntables down to Mr. Balance in Phantip Plaza for repair.

My problem is with speed. The tables do not maintain a steady speed over time. I also have trouble setting the speed in the first place with the built-in pitch control, thanks to work done by another technician. One table has a bad pulley.

I brought both tables to him because parts from one could be used in the other to make one good table. I told him this.

A couple of weeks later, he called to tell me that both tables had been fixed, the total cost of repair was B5,000.

I was quite surprised at that. But, would happily pay it if I could go home with two tables that would serve me well for a long time to come.

My main goal is to record my record collection to digital, clean them up and make CD's, as well as FLAC and MP3 versions. It's a case of "record once, listen many times." So, this is not about casual listening. Getting the speed set as accurately as possible for my old table is important.

So, I was taken aback when he had one response to what had been done to both tables to "repair" them. He said, "about the motor", which is rather vague, indicating that he really didn't know. I also asked what oil might have been used for lubrication, because this is an issue; I haven't gotten a really good answer yet from dealers and repair people yet. He derisively said, "why don't you ask the dealer?

So, I came in to check them out before paying.

After a long time testing, I had to come to the conclusion that the repairs I had asked for had not been done. The pitch control was as difficult to deal with as before, and it still seemed to 'drift" even when I took note of the speed before leaving it along for a while. But I couldn't verify this until I was sure I'd set the speed right to begin with. The proprietors assistant watched as I did this. I verified the problem with both an accurate speed tester and visual observation of the built-in turntable strobe. Later he told "Mr. Balance" that he thought I was only using my LED testing tool, not the built-in strobe.

I told him about the problems, and he said "please write the problem down on paper". I had to catch a bus back home, so I asked for his email and for his technician's number ( a customer was in the store at the time, so he gave the number to me - earlier he demurred when I asked for it over the phone). I emailed him the next day.

I called later to see if he had read the email. He hadn't, but asked me to call him in the morning, when he said he'd be talking to his technician. I did so, had to call back later because he hadn't' gotten there, and at that point he suggested that my expensive speed tester (a KAB SpeedStrobe, that accurately checks the speed regardless of power issues) was not a good thing to test with. I should be using my eyes to verify with the built-in strobe. I tried to tell him that I saw the same problem with the strobe, but I don't think he heard me.

This conversation was repeated, more or less, when I called another day to see if he had read the email. I called again today to ask for his fax number, and (before I could ask) I got an even more interesting response. He said I should bring my tone arm in (this table has a removable arm) and use my ears as well as my eyes. I tried to explain how some people might hear the pitch difference more than me, but he didn't hear that.

The message I'm getting repeatedly is that I'm being a pain (krueng jai) and a fool for expecting the table be easily set to a speed and to keep it. He tells me that he has checked it out and doesn't see the problem.

Now, I fully acknowledge that this problem is a bit subjective, and subject to how picky one is, but I'm the customer with a testing tool, and the technician is telling me to 'use my ears'.

I'm about to send a fax detailing things I had told him in person, and ask him to discuss it with his tech. Maybe there will be good news in the end, but I'm concerned that Thai culture may be getting in the way (Mr. Balance may not want to push his tech into a corner, etc.). But he is asking me to pay much more than a repair service would ask in the U.S. for work that does not seem to have been done.

It feels like the old car mechanic trick, or audio repair shops I've dealt with in the states - hold your possession ransom for demanded cash, while making excuses and other nonsense to avoid admitting that the don't have the capacity to fix the problem.

OK, TIT, of course. But I am very frustrated, because an audiophile member of this forum highly recommended this guy. That's why I went to him instead of trying to deal with language issues I've had with the Thorens dealer/official service center in Bangkok. This man speaks fairly good English in person and comes across professionally, but maybe I had a little too much faith in him. I regret using his "repair" service now, and will probably avoid buying from him too, unless things change.

That's why I am asking to hear of other's experiences. I don't want to misjudge him if there might be a better explanation. But I don't care to be "taken for a ride" either.

If I end up getting screwed, having to pay a 5k Baht ransom to get my non-repaired tables back, this should be a warning to others. If he gives me a break in the price of a failed repair, or finally gets his tech to make the necessary adjustments/repairs, then we can end this story happily and other folks can go to him with confidence.

-UC

Edited March 1, 2009 by Upcountry

[richm7]

Hi UC,

What model of Thorens turntable are they? You talk about speed control, so are they later electronic ones or what? You also talk about a bad pulley, which is a bit confusing. What's bad about the pulley? I'm not familiar with any of the older Thorens turntables with pitch control (like say Garrard or Lenco). Pitch control on Thorens is, I believe, only associated with their electronic controlled products (TD125 and up), so if you are getting speed drift and the belt is O.K. it sounds like the the frequency generated in the control circuit is drifting. The venerable TD124 does not use a belt, it is idler driven, so I assume it is not a 124. I would have thought that anything else mechanical (sticky or worn bearings or some sort of mechanical drag) would be fairly obvious. These turntables are very sturdy precision devices with an excellent reputation and I would not let one within a million miles of a Pantip Plaza butcher. I'd get your stuff off of him as quick as you possibly can and write the 5000 baht off to experience. I'm usually in Bangkok but I happen to be in the US for at least another couple of months. If you can wait a while I can both take a look at your tables and lend you a nice TD150 with a Linn arm to do your transcription to digital (dunno why you want to do that unless you intend playing CD's in the car). No charge either, just for fun. Let me know.

Richard

Edited August 3, 2009 by astral
No need to quote the entire OP. Use Fast Reply - Astral

[Upcountry]

Hi Richard,

Khun jai dee, krab! ;-)

Thanks for your response and feedback about the Phantip shop.

I didn't mention the table model since I didn't think it would matter to most folks.

Both machines are the Thorens TD 125 MKII model. Belt drive, strobe light, pitch control. The pulley (coming from the motor) on one machine is a bit wobbly, which might have an effect on the belt. I put new belts on both machines.

I appreciate your offer, as I have been thinking that I may need to ask for help like that. The number of records I need to digitize is not quite enough to justify buying a new high-end table (duck, panraya swinging!) so it's a tough call.

I've been gradually converting all my music to FLAC. I make CD's for special stuff, and MP3's for the car.

-UC

/recorde once, listen many times!

[Upcountry]

http://www.kabusa.com/strobeQ.htm

This is the precision tool I use to check the speed of my turntable. Mr. Balance questions its validity.

It may be more accurate than the table spec, but if the table's strobe also indicates trouble setting the speed correctly, and shows drift, then asking me to just "use my ears" seems churlish.

Am I wrong about this?

[richm7]

http://www.kabusa.com/strobeQ.htm

This is the precision tool I use to check the speed of my turntable. Mr. Balance questions its validity.

It may be more accurate than the table spec, but if the table's strobe also indicates trouble setting the speed correctly, and shows drift, then asking me to just "use my ears" seems churlish.

Am I wrong about this?

That tool is very good. It uses a reference oscillator to drive the lamp (LED I guess) so unlike the mains the frequency will be spot on. If your pulley has the wobbles it sounds like the motor drive shaft is bent and that will definitely result in speed instability - you probably see a harmonic of it using the KaB tool. The problem I see is that trying to straighten a bent drive shaft is not too easy; you did say you had two Thorens - is the other one also a 125? Otherwise, pending verification that the problem is "the wobbles" it is almost certainly possible to get a motor off of ebay, I would think. I'm not intimately familiar with the 125 so let me do some research on it to see what kind of motor it uses......believe it or not, I might have one. A very nice guy in a Hi-Fi shop in Sydney gave me THREE new ones once just as a result of chatting with him. Bloody amazing.

Can you hang on a couple of months? Recover those TT's from the Pantip guy. If he thinks that tool is wrong, he's an idiot.

(EDIT) Oops, sorry, I see you say they ARE both 125's. Wake up Richard!

Edited March 2, 2009 by richm7

[richm7]

I just found a copy of the service manual on the internet (isn't it wonderful!) and it seems that the motor is the standard Thorens 16 pole synchronous motor, though not clear yet whether it is 110v or 16v, they did both. I suspect 110v, so you are in luck because they are fairly commonly available (and I have one!) so if it is that bent shaft it will be easy. I took a (very) quick look at the electronics and unsurprisingly the strobe pulses are derived from the motor control frequency so I'd guess that the control board is good; just a guess, mind. Bottom line is that it seems likely to be a fairly simple fix (I thought that yesterday when I went to check the fuel level sender on my VW only to find you can't get the bugger out without removing the tank!

[Upcountry]

Thanks, richm7,

Yes, both are 125s, and like I told the shop, I really just need on working table, so the good motor/pulley should go on the best table.

I also got service stuff on the Internet, which I gave to a technical man in my town who worked on the tables for a while.

Thanks for your input about the KAB. It is indeed a ploy by the "repair man" in Phantip to try to convince me that I shouldn't so picky about speed.

-UC

Edited March 2, 2009 by Upcountry

[Upcountry]

Oh, by the way, does your TD150 have a pitch control? I looked on the Internet, can't tell for sure, but pictures of the table don't show one.

[Upcountry]

Richard, actually, found this great link for your table:

http://www.retrohifi.co.uk/thorens_150.html

You've probably already been there.

Incidentally, I want to contact KS World (last I heard, the Thorens dealer or official service provider), in Bangkok, but the number on their website is wrong, and the number from information rings forever. I guess they are not in business these days.

If anyone reading this knows how to get in touch with them, I'd appreciate the help.

-UC

[choppychugger]

Hi Upcountry,

Sorry to hear about your problems. 5,000thb seem expensive considering no major parts were changed out. Reliability of your pitch control with belt drive turntables will always be an issue, the main source of problem being the consistancy of the rubber belt for the pulley. If you say you changed them, then you are more than likely looking at your pulley or drive motor itself. I always ask for an inspection and phone call for price of repair before any work is carried out on electrical items here in Phuket - I learned the hard way with my apple comp!

If its for recording your wax collection to MP3 and the likes then I would recomend you don't throw good money after bad, and get your self a direct drive turntable along the lines of Technics/Vestax. Much more reliable.

On my first set of turntables ( belt drive with no strobe ) the only way I could accurately test the pitch control was with 2 of the same records playing. Definatley helps tune your ears in!!

May I ask what audio interface you were using from T.T to comp?

I have just ordered mine from ION (http://www.ionaudio.com/urecord) and will probally use Audacity software to fine tune the recording.

good luck with that

choppy

[Upcountry]

Thanks for your advice, Choppy.

Certainly there are issues with the belt-drive system, and the wear and tear on various parts all contribute to the lack of speed stability. The heavy platter of my table is supposed to make up for most of the natural variance in a new table.

I'm starting to think that the repair man working for Mr. Balance is convinced that what I'm complaining about is normal. But I've used this table for years, and it used to be easier to set the speed. I didn't start to get picky about the table keeping speed, though, until I started digitizing, so I can't say how it used to be. Bought both my tables used.

I'm mainly archiving to FLAC (CD's and MP3's are for specific cases). I'm even converting my CD's to FLAC since lossless digital is probably the way of the future.

Update about Mr. Balance. I faxed him and requested a detailed itemization of the work done for the 5k baht he wants. He whined about how can he list things about motors etc. Diabolical! How can he not see the wisdom of that? I'm supposed to be meek and accept everything he says without question.

I called Thorens today (the have direct line at last) and got the news that there is no official distributor or repair center in Thailand. The person I spoke to also confirmed that they have no spare parts my for table. So, if I need a new pulley, etc., I simply have to search around for another used part (that may not improve upon the old one). That's why I brought both tables to the shop - to make one good one - not to pay double to "fix" both. Makes me sick that he purposely ignored that information (didn't check with me first if there was doubt).

I'm sill confused about why he feels justified in charging such a high price. Is it because anyone who had "good" hi-fi equipment in this country is supposed to be a walking ATM too? Is it the going rate?

-UC

Edited March 2, 2009 by Upcountry

[Upcountry]

May I ask what audio interface you were using from T.T to comp?

choppy

Choppy, I record 24-bit via a USB A/D converter using Bias Peak on OS X, and clean up the audio with ClickFix in Cool Edit Pro. Then I dither to 16 with Peak again. Convoluted, but I get good results. So the weak point is the turntable at this point.

If I get another turntable, in addition to my pitch control requirement, I'd like to get one that can work with my Grado cartridges and Grado dedicated phono stage.

-UC

[richm7]

May I ask what audio interface you were using from T.T to comp?

choppy

Choppy, I record 24-bit via a USB A/D converter using Bias Peak on OS X, and clean up the audio with ClickFix in Cool Edit Pro. Then I dither to 16 with Peak again. Convoluted, but I get good results. So the weak point is the turntable at this point.

If I get another turntable, in addition to my pitch control requirement, I'd like to get one that can work with my Grado cartridges and Grado dedicated phono stage.

-UC

Hi UC - I see you are digitizing the proper way.....excellent, I hope you keep the 24/96 files after you've red-booked them as future "masters". You know, if you ever go to a centralized HD system at home you can use those high quality 24/96 masters direct, getting as near to the vinyl as you can with digital.

On the other points, no, the TD150 does not have a pitch control. Indeed, many (if not most) high end TT's these days don't, and it is a fact that some do not run spot-on, Rega being a well-known case in point. You can often tweak the speed by adjusting the motor screws but that is not an on-the-fly capability. As long as the speed is stable and within .5% of the nominal speed only musicians with perfect pitch should even notice it being slightly fast or slow.

I see choppy talks about a direct drive TT. There certainly are quite a few available but frankly, none of them are high end and I don't believe any would meet your obviously exacting standards. High quality conventional (i.e. belt driven) turntables certainly do have chunky platters (for a number of reasons) and high quality bearings but unless they have been abused they should run for many many years without discernable bearing wear or deterioration. It does worry me a bit that you have a pully problem (again, I doubt it is the pully itself, more likely the motor shaft is bent) because that suggests that maybe the TT has had a whack at sometime (perhaps during transit) which might have done other damage.

Not surprised you can't get Thorens to do anything. Those TT's are years old now so spares are difficult if not impossible to come by. I have a sneaky feeling that the TD125 also uses the same bearing as the TD150. The TD150 was a top TT of its day (about $30 when new, so you know it's day was not yesterday! The Linn Sondek, which is really just an unashamed copy of the TD150 can easily cost over $4000 if bought new).

So, I have a motor (in BKK) and I do have a bearing, but it is in the UK at my Dad's house. I need to pick it up anyway so maybe I will go via the UK on my way back to BKK. TD150's get split for parts all the time though, so I'd try to pick a bearing up on ebay IF you need one, though I really do not think the bearing is anything to do with your speed fluctuation. It COULD be drift in the oscillator in the control circuit and you'd need to have an oscilloscope to see that (or an i/f and a 'scope program on your mac) though I wouldn't mess around with that board unless you know what you're doing - it carries lethal voltages. If it is, that's an easy component replacement. My money is still on the apparently bent shaft.

The TD125 is a pretty good TT which I think is well worth fixing. I'm happy to take a look at it for you when I get back. One question I do have is that if you have two TD125's, do they both exhibit the same problem? Surely not both motor shafts are bent? As you said in your first post, it also seems to me that one good TT could be made out of two bad ones.

[richm7]

Another question - what tone arm are you using?

The Grado cartidges and phono stage will work with any half decent arm, by the way. (The phono stage doesn't care, of course!)

[Upcountry]

Thanks for all your feedback and offers to help, Richard.

Only one of my tables as a really bad pulley. The other one is okay, if maybe a little worn. However, but have the same problem(s) with speed.

1. Pitch control pot changes translate into too much of a speed change. Not sure how else to describe that. It used to be easier to fine-tune the speed. The technician who cleaned them may not have known how to calibrate it correctly. Sadly, Mr. Balance's technician didn't touch them, as far as I can tell, and Mr. Balance himself refuses to acknowledge the problem.

2. Since I can't set the speed, I can't be sure, but it seems like the speed drift is still there. I'm sure it is, because I have no evidence that anything was really done to them. I'm sure the speed change is more than spec, visually noticeable in the built-in strobe.

I read that the Linn has an outboard power supply that can be used to control the speed, but that this brand has a certain sound characteristic, coloring the music.

I also read that it might be tricky getting the Rega arm to work with the Grado.

I have an old Thorens arm (original for the table) and an SME arm (classic option for the table). I got the 2nd table (with bent pulley) as part of the deal when I bought the SME on eBay.

-UC

Edited March 3, 2009 by Upcountry

[Upcountry]

http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.m...egory_Code=TURN

I had to share this with you all. It's sounds too good to be true, because I thought I read about problems hooking up a Grado to Rega arms. But read this:

Listening Experience

We were anxious to try the Rega P3-24 turntable. It was very easy to set-up and align. We installed a Grado Gold phono cartridge because we have been delighted with its sheer musicality. Grado cartridges are said to usually hum with Regas. That is not true with the Rega P3-24. There was no humming whatsover from the new high performance motor.

The Rega P3-24 turntable and Grado Gold phono catridge turned out to be an exquisite match. The sound was liquid, detailed and colorful. It was painted on a wide soundfield of solid black canvas with detail that could be discerned about 2-3 feet inside. We could not stop listening to records, both old and new. It was an enchanting musical experience.

The Rega P3-24 turntable is a keeper!

Who could ask for a more positive declaration? That's my cartridge they're talking about.

Now, I would like to try a Rega.

UC

[raro]

interesting topic! Now which shop would you recommend? There are also a bunch of shops at Fortune Town that look quite savvy.

I have a Technics M1 (I think it was....) thatI'd like to bring back to live. Changed the needle already about a year ago but the arm tends to slide to the middle and whatever I tweak around, no avail.

[Upcountry]

Found this from the Rega site:

http://www.rega.co.uk/index2.htm

Got an email response from the contact there.

So, Thailand may have a Rega dealer now, after all. I still wonder if buying in Singapore might be cheaper, despite travel expenses, than buying in BKK with taxes, etc.

-UC