Exodus: Expatriates Leaving Chiang Mai And Environs

[ChiangMaiFun]

Seriously - I have heard no 'exodus' in fact the opposite - more people are coming to Chiang Mai from Krung Thep. Things will always be 'churning' and some go and others arrive - things are bound to be slower business wise - there's a world downturn. Crisis? what crisis?

As for the ex-pat club it really does only cater for a 'section' of those ex-pats that live here - it's more a business networking thing than a true club - I know tons of farangs but only 2 or 3 that go AND they go for business reasons only - to sell basically (property/insurance/investments etc.). In fact there's a gap in the 'market' for a true club in Chiang Mai.

Something else that to me has become more noticeable are the amount of expats new or old that are aware of Thai Visa but that are not members and that live outside the super highway and do not come into town. Over the past few years the amount of restaurants and watering holes supermarkets, daily needs etc., out past highway 11 has risen sharply. This has added to what some people have noticed as a decline in the expat population. I can show you restaurants that are packed with expats and Thais on a daily and nightly bases along with watering holes that will have any where from 4 to 12 customers steadily from 8 AM tell 10 PM. This is on a daily bases. These people fill no need to venture into CM except when they absolutely have to.

Very good points... I am thinking of getting 'out of Dodge' myself - but I'll still be 'here' - asute observation

[mogoso]

Not realy true though is it. The greedy are still getting golden goodbye's and massive pensions whilst a lot of their innocent workers are joining unemployment queues. The greedy have their million dollar lifestyles, protected pensions and off-shore tax free lump sums - whilst their ex-employees, suppliers and secondary companies (local shops and restaurants that depended on the office staff, etc) that are lossing their houses.

By greedy I suppose those who have worked harder or smarter to get what they have obtained. Very few people get ahead in life just by working a 40 hour work week, they get by, but don't get ahead. Some of those people took their money and took a risk and started a company that succeeded, did they just 40 hours per week to get it started and keep it running or did they bust their butt working 80 plus hours per week worrying about getting product out the door and meeting payrolls and taxes, ins etc

Meanwhile you the employee spent your weekends watching the tellie and some short pants men run up and down a field complaining to your fellow watchers of the tellie how poorly the company treats you as you down another beer. they are many abusers of capitalism who do get that golden parachute without the sweat that a founder went through but most work their butts off keeping a product going out the door and payroll met.

Some of the worst abuses are to come with the carbon taxes being proposed the crony capitalism will put a dent in everyone's wallet. Big labor unions and Al Gore own the CCX and Al Gore owns a big piece of the British carbon exchange. Who is out winning Noble prizes pushing an agenda that remove money from everyone's wallet without producing a product. The power given by socialist govt's with a kickback to them from carbon traders will be of such a size as to dwarf any penny enny golden parachutes. Then you'll see greed.

[Ulysses G.]

Good post!

[Nuff Said]

Sorry, I said 'Chiang Mai' in my earlier posting, it should have read 'Chiang Mai Mail.'

This is probably the beginnig of the end for the Chiang Mai Mail. It always seems to struggle to fill its pages, as, like its sister paper in Pattaya, it doesn't risk upsetting people by venturing into the sometimes shady world of investigative journalism.

I wasn't aware that it shut down for 6 months in 2007 as I didn't live in Chiang Mai then.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Nuff Said

[gotlost]

Good post!

More like a bitter rant to me. Totally off topic.

[Ulysses G.]

Impact of Economic Distress

To each his own.

[gotlost]

Sorry, I said 'Chiang Mai' in my earlier posting, it should have read 'Chiang Mai Mail.'

This is probably the beginnig of the end for the Chiang Mai Mail. It always seems to struggle to fill its pages, as, like its sister paper in Pattaya, it doesn't risk upsetting people by venturing into the sometimes shady world of investigative journalism.

I wasn't aware that it shut down for 6 months in 2007 as I didn't live in Chiang Mai then.

Since 2006 it has had at least 4 addresses changes, maybe 6.

[Nuff Said]

Sorry, I said 'Chiang Mai' in my earlier posting, it should have read 'Chiang Mai Mail.'

This is probably the begining of the end for the Chiang Mai Mail. It always seems to struggle to fill its pages, as, like its sister paper in Pattaya, it doesn't risk upsetting people by venturing into the sometimes shadey world of investigative journalism.

I wasn't aware that it shut down for 6 months in 2007 as I didn't live in Chiang Mai then.

Since 2006 it has had at least 4 addresses changes, maybe 6.

I wasn't aware of the either.

I can't help getting the impression that if the reduction in frequency to twice mothly doesn't work financially, then it will be curtains. Downsizing will mean that the news that it does carry will be even more stale that before. With the availability of news and information on such the web and forums such as this, who needs a printed option?

I wonder why the circulation is falling. Is it more on-line readers, or are there simply fewer foreigners to actually buy the printed version?

[Ulysses G.]

It appears to be another one of Chiang Mai's many non-earning businesses that are a labor of love for the owner. My guess is that It has never sold many copies and it is easy to see that it has very few advertisers, but they distribute free copies every week to numerous locations and are free on the Internet. Who can argue with that?

There are a number of free publications about that are appreciated by those of us who read obsessively, but I don't know how most of them can make ends meet without having a big pension or personal bank account

[thaimiller]

Seriously - I have heard no 'exodus' in fact the opposite - more people are coming to Chiang Mai from Krung Thep. Things will always be 'churning' and some go and others arrive - things are bound to be slower business wise - there's a world downturn. Crisis? what crisis?

As for the ex-pat club it really does only cater for a 'section' of those ex-pats that live here - it's more a business networking thing than a true club - I know tons of farangs but only 2 or 3 that go AND they go for business reasons only - to sell basically (property/insurance/investments etc.). In fact there's a gap in the 'market' for a true club in Chiang Mai.

Something else that to me has become more noticeable are the amount of expats new or old that are aware of Thai Visa but that are not members and that live outside the super highway and do not come into town. Over the past few years the amount of restaurants and watering holes supermarkets, daily needs etc., out past highway 11 has risen sharply. This has added to what some people have noticed as a decline in the expat population. I can show you restaurants that are packed with expats and Thais on a daily and nightly bases along with watering holes that will have any where from 4 to 12 customers steadily from 8 AM tell 10 PM. This is on a daily bases. These people fill no need to venture into CM except when they absolutely have to.

Totally agree, I live out near sansai and returants such as pratties, coffee bus and bars like bamboo sansai are busy everytime I go in, im not saying thats everyday as I don't use them everyday but It seems a good chance that they are as I have no set routine and have visited them on different days. I can't see the need to go into town as I have everything I need round here.

[ChiangMaiFun]

Sorry, I said 'Chiang Mai' in my earlier posting, it should have read 'Chiang Mai Mail.'

This is probably the beginnig of the end for the Chiang Mai Mail. It always seems to struggle to fill its pages, as, like its sister paper in Pattaya, it doesn't risk upsetting people by venturing into the sometimes shady world of investigative journalism.

I wasn't aware that it shut down for 6 months in 2007 as I didn't live in Chiang Mai then.

That's one of the reasons it's so awful - it's so cringing and fauning - like a puppy dog snivelling and sniffing around it's owner waiting for a pat. It isn't a 'news'paper at all - that's the point - it doesn't seem to understand it's audiance. I'm sure it would do very well if it actually reported anything - sometimes I glance at it but I can barely do that without feeling nauseous. Not sure whether that's a reflection of the management or a reflection of the environment and culture it operates in - probably a bit of both.

Edited August 13, 2010 by ChiangMaiFun

[David006]

Economic distress must certainly have hit just about everyone in the expatriate community. If it isn't the collapsing investment portfolio and the threat of lost retirement benefits, it might be the brutal change in some currency exchange rates of recent months. Sometimes it is both!

Some people are hunkering down; others are shipping out (or being shipped out by their companies). But it is very hard to get an overall view about what's going on. So, what do you know and what do you hear? I mean to include all expatriates in the discussion and the discussion to be about all expatriates, not just the Anglo- or Eurocentric. And I don't mean to include here discussion of the illegal Burmese worker problem, which is an issue of its own.

I'll start it off:

International schools have lost a fairly considerable number of students (around 50) from the Korean community.

I have heard of repatriation of various managers of enterprises in the industrial estates south of town. Anyone have any sense of the extent?

One hears of failing businesses. True? Are the owners still around?

I am not in Thailand at the moment. I'll be back very soon though. Last year I got up to 31 baht for 1 Australian $.

Right now, it's 22.94 or something. That's a huge drop...and it must be very difficult for people reliant on $ from abroad.

I have been teaching in Australia and I know first hand that the overseas student market from Korea is way down. Korea is being hit very hard and the flow on from that will be much clearer in the next 12 months.

$A is about 28baht now.... better than its ever been except for a few weeks where it was 30+...those hardest hit are familiar with much better rates for their Euro/Pound whatever.....sad but maybe it was over inflated before?

[gotlost]

Over the past year I have noticed that any major happening or advents in Chiang Mai was reported first in the other national newspapers. If it had to do with sex the Pattaya rags broke it.

[Nuff Said]

It appears to be another one of Chiang Mai's many non-earning businesses that are a labor of love for the owner. My guess is that It has never sold many copies and it is easy to see that it has very few advertisers, but they distribute free copies every week to numerous locations and are free on the Internet. Who can argue with that?

There are a number of free publications about that are appreciated by those of us who read obsessively, but I don't know how most of them can make ends meet without having a big pension or personal bank account

Perhaps the Chiang Mai Mail is a labor of love, and the owners do it for love and not money, as I recall a statement from the owners to this effect some time ago. It attracts little classified advertising because of its B10 per word charge, while there are other local printed and on-line publications that offer free lineage advertising. Publications usually attract advertisers on the basis of the number of copies circulated, be they paid for or otherwise. It's a viscous circle. If they don't achieve the circulation figure they don't attact the advertising, and if they don't get the advertising the publication ceases to be viable.

When I was last in Chiang Mai a real estate agent told me that Citylife, which is free, had sharply reduced the number of copies available for circulation. Was this because they were genuinely printing more than were needed, or simply an economy measure? When setting up a print run, the major cost is for the first so many copies. There then comes a point where printing more costs little more than the paper and ink. This probably explains why the Chiang Mai Mail is so keen to give copies away, as they, in effect, probably cost very little to produce.

The fact that both the CM Expats Club and CM Mail have recently downsized their frequency is, in my opinion, a reflection of the fact that there must be fewer foreigners in the area to cater for. Neither will have cut back on their activities just for the sake of it.

[Chicog]

Did no-one ever pull up the Pattaya Mail and Chiang Mai Mail's website and play "spot the difference"?

[Lizard2010]

Here is a post from the Tripadvisor Chiang Mai Forum

Maybe they are also having problems getting people to go.

We are a group of both Expats and Thais who share a genuine love for Chiang Mai City are ready to help you in making your stay, whether long or short, enjoyable.

No question is too small or too hard, we’re glad to know you.

The objectives of the Chiang Mai Friends Group are

:to encourage friendship and cooperation between Thais and expats to facilitate networking of resources in support of community projects. To offer support and friendship through community services, meetings, professional contacts

:to support research leading to the improvement of Chiang Mai. All visitors welcome.

On Thursday, August 5, at an informal gathering of several Chiang Mai Friends members, there was a lively discussion on the subject of what we, as a group, should be doing to fulfil our goals as an organization. It was generally agreed that the best way to build both Farang and Thai membership would be to create Chiang Mai-based projects that gave CMF volunteers a regular opportunity to work together to provide a meaningful service to our city. Ideally the project or projects would be in central Chiang Mai, accessible via public transportation, serve the city and residents of Chiang Mai, not create visa problems for Farang volunteers, and be able to accommodate and welcome regular group efforts by CMF volunteers. The rest of the evening was spent discussing possible project sites that could meet these criteria..

Projects suggested were:

A Year Book of Perspective between Foreigner and Thais.

Children’s Home (Moon Muang Soi 7),

Lanna Wisdom, Art/Music/Games/ School projects.

Having activities like games, more local tree plantings, and joining local events as we are part of Chiang Mai City.

The *key word* should be that any activities are suited to the local values.

The points we talked about reaffirmed that the purpose of CMF is integrating foreigners and Thais as residents of the CM area. We all agreed that CMF is a unique group and should be better known in order to attract more members.

Boong has given thought to CMF working mainly with local Chiang Mai people as the majority population around us are local Thais. From Boong’s studying and questioning of the locals, they feel they are often left out of the interests of NGOs and international organizations and even the appeals of the Royal Family. They feel that their needs warrant attention as well.. We all agreed that the charm of Chiang Mai is the Chiang Mai people. So, directing our attention in a more focused way on the people of Chiang Mai, would make perfect sense for an organization like ours.

Some questions:

Can we develop concrete ideas or activities with a focus on Chiang Mai?

Another point for future discussion is CMF is not a NGO or charitable organization. How can we make this known and how will this affect our ability to serve Chiang Mai?

The evening concluded with the agreement that we should bring these ideas to the attention of the full membership via e-mail and that a discussion of them should be placed on the agenda for the August 25 meeting.

Pls find our coming meeting as the following info. Look forward to seeing you all.

Next meeting:

Time: August 25 · 5:30pm - 11:30pm

Location:

Nimman Kitchen by Kriss, Opposite Hillside 4, Huay Kaew Road Condotel 4.

Chiang Mai Friends Group : AUGUST 2010 MEETING WED 25TH @ NIMMAN KITCHEN BY KRISS, Huay Kaew Road, Opposite Hillside Plaza and

Time : Dinner 5.30-7.00 p.m. Cost 250 Baht per person.

Meeting : 7.00-8.30 p.m. costs 80 Baht per person

The speak is Roger Peter.

FIT AFTER FIFTY; ALTERNATIVES FOR STAYING IN SHAPE THROUGH THE YEARS.

Twenty years ago. Roger Peters left a successful corporate career to work another 20 years as a full time tai chi teacher and part time university professor. Five years ago, he came to Chiang Mai to study thai massage; and has been returning every year for longer and longer visits. Last year for 6 months; this year for 9 months.

Since 1975, Mr Peters has extensively studied many forms of tai chi, chi gong, yoga, massage and relaxation techniques. He has been asked to teach tai chi at some of the most exclusive spas in the world.

Technically retired,Roger still helps others become and stay fit through these and other methods. He also has over 50 years of weight training experience which he continues to practice and teach in one-on-one consultations.

In this presentation, Roger will share his personal journey through these various health enhancing practices, demonstrate a short tai chi form, and teach us a simple, fun, chi gong exercise for joint health and overall flexibility.

Please come join us for an enjoyable, informative, health- enhancing presentation.

We have monthly dinner meetings which include a social hour, speaker, and progress reports.

Pls contact Khun Paa for reservation. 053 206121 email : [email protected]

Come join us and tell us what you think of Chaing Mai and positive changes you would like to see.

Sincerely,

Randy

Any comments?

[clinique]

if foreigners or retirees cannot afford tolive in CM, they certainly cannot afford to go "home"...

is this just another whingers line..............

[dingdongrb]

Also, one could easily get by without air-con in Chiang Mai if you live in a comfortable building, where it would be almost a must have in Bangkok.

What kind of comfortable building in CM would not require aircon? Can you identify some of these buildings? Interested for our eventual move to CM.

The basics:

- Sun is kept off your walls, windows and preferably off as much of your building as possible. (Enough roof overhang, trees, etc.) Enough roof overhang also means you can keep more windows open in the rainy season; when the wind starts blowing it instantly lowers temperatures for the evening.

- The house is positioned to catch the breeze, making sure you havee enough windows that open on the right sides

- Have enough garden/greenery around the house, not cement or concrete that would heat up or reflect heat or keep warming up the area around the house.

- Main living quarters are positioned not to catch afternoon sun.

- The roof is well ventilated. (and possibly insulated)

- You need a two level house at least, this keeps downstairs cooler still.

- Big thermal mass in your walls and floors

- Ceiling fans; moving the air around comfortably gets you through hotter times of the day without aircon, or let them just turn slowly in the evening to move the air around. Probably healthier than refrigerating your home as well.

- Build the house a bit outside of downtown.. Try driving around the outskirts on a moped in the evening, you will notice a remarkable drop in temperature first when getting out of town, and then further still in particular areas (nearer to the hills) those would be prime places to locate your house.

I think that's the most basic ones. In addition to that there's more elaborate passive or active cooling that you can do that doesn't involve airconditioning.. It's interesting to google that.

These days when I come home it so cool inside you'd think the aircon has been on... (Possibly due to the nights still being cool and the soil being cool. I actually keep windows shut downstairs these days.) I think traditional Thai homes (wooden ones on stilts) are good to catch breezes, but do nothing to use coolness from the ground. And of course wood warms up and stays warm.

...and then die when you start inhaling all the smoke from the burning that goes on....

[Mathai]

Hi there,

I'm a newcomer on the forum. I've spent hours reading the WHOLE present thread.

I intend to come and setlle in CM very soon (as many others do actually).

I'm 35 years old, currently living in France.

Well, I must admit the situation in CM you all describe does not seem that great at the moment. All opinions are expressed though... Yet I find it hard to know if it's the right time to land in CM or not. Here I must give more precision about my "profile" : 35 years old, copywriter in a communication agency, graduate in languages (Fench - native-speaker - English and German) and first willing to teach in schools or university.

Some tend to discourage the newcomers as the happy days of CM are gone. Some others show more optimistic faces... So, what best advice would you give to newcomers today ? Am I a fool to think I can write new pages of my life in CM ? Is CM still a place to create one's life, reasonably and with no ambition to build any fortune ?

Btw are there any english teacher around ?

I thank you very much in advance

M.

Edited October 13, 2010 by Mathai

[gotlost]

are there any what????????? :cheesy:

[anonymouse]

are there any what????????? :cheesy:

Well if he doesn't go the English Teacher route there are plenty of bars for sale

[Mathai]

are there any what????????? :cheesy:

Great mate ! Great answer, congrats.

That's at least 1 clown in CM. It'll be fun. Really.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I left Chiang Mai.

That's why I'm posting at this ungodly hour.

Sadly I am forced to return next week. Woe is me.

[Mathai]

ok, thank you anyway.

Edited October 13, 2010 by Mathai

[CheGuava]

Btw are there any english teacher around ?

Too many. It's kind of what people do when they can't do anything else but desperately want to stay for unclear reasons.

So you should have no trouble finding one, though online courses are an option too.

Edited October 13, 2010 by CheGuava

[chaoyang]

That's no loss it's awful

While incompetence abounds in so many walks of life, it is particularly glaring when unqualified people attempt to publish a newspaper or magazine – the lousy effort is actually committed to print then handed out for all to see.

The Chiang Mai Mail is an egregious example of people with no professional journalism skills printing a series of pages, calling it a newspaper, then basking in the glory of pictures of themselves with various petty officials and business slimeballs.

Really creepy. It is no "effort of love" – it actually is an attempt to make money. The Indian-Thai owner attempted to bring the exact template to Chiang Mai from Pattaya, where he had been successful at one time because it was the first English-language "newspaper" in a place that has a less-than-discerning readership. It think there are now some halfway decent local publications in Pattaya, so I suspect his "flagship" could also be in rough waters.

The only professional newspaper in Thailand that I have seen is the Phuket Gazette – but get this amazing fact – it is actually run by experienced, professional journalists.

[sarahsbloke]

Some tend to discourage the newcomers as the happy days of CM are gone. Some others show more optimistic faces... So, what best advice would you give to newcomers today ? Am I a fool to think I can write new pages of my life in CM ? Is CM still a place to create one's life, reasonably and with no ambition to build any fortune ?

ChiangMai is a great place for a single foreigner to come and live

IF

He has enough money to keep himself and has no expectation (or need) of earning anything (locally) but pocket money.

Heaps of French speaking and English speaking people around.

Two French bars in MoonMuang Soy 2 alone.

[SadieMBeagle]

Well, I must admit the situation in CM you all describe does not seem that great at the moment. All opinions are expressed though... Yet I find it hard to know if it's the right time to land in CM or not. Here I must give more precision about my "profile" : 35 years old, copywriter in a communication agency, graduate in languages (Fench - native-speaker - English and German) and first willing to teach in schools or university.

Some tend to discourage the newcomers as the happy days of CM are gone. Some others show more optimistic faces... So, what best advice would you give to newcomers today ? Am I a fool to think I can write new pages of my life in CM ? Is CM still a place to create one's life, reasonably and with no ambition to build any fortune ?

Please know that people who post on thaivisa.com are making it sound terrible, when in fact it's not. Some people just like to complain

My "profile": I am a 34-year-old copywriter/technical writer/English teacher at a local company, and I can tell you that Chiang Mai is a glorious place to be Yes, there are jobs available, especially if you know who to talk to. And you will find out who has these jobs when you get here. There are plenty of English teachers, and they are always looking for more. There are also teachers of other languages here (Thai, German, Spanish, that I know of, and probably there are others).

Let me know if you have any more questions about living here!

M

Edited October 14, 2010 by SadieMBeagle

[SadieMBeagle]

I left Chiang Mai.

That's why I'm posting at this ungodly hour.

Sadly I am forced to return next week. Woe is me.

Pffft...whatever. I bet you're going through withdrawal and getting depressed already

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I left Chiang Mai.

That's why I'm posting at this ungodly hour.

Sadly I am forced to return next week. Woe is me.

Pffft...whatever. I bet you're going through withdrawal and getting depressed already

Not yet. I fully expected this place to be depressing to an almost criminal level, so I made sure to get some final entertainment under my belt prior to leaving Sunnybunny Airport. That should normally be enough to get me through the week. Speedy internet though. And decent wine and cheese. Zero perving opportunities of course, unless you count Camfrog.