Exodus: Expatriates Leaving Chiang Mai And Environs

[cardinalblue]

Economic distress must certainly have hit just about everyone in the expatriate community. If it isn't the collapsing investment portfolio and the threat of lost retirement benefits, it might be the brutal change in some currency exchange rates of recent months. Sometimes it is both!

Some people are hunkering down; others are shipping out (or being shipped out by their companies). But it is very hard to get an overall view about what's going on. So, what do you know and what do you hear? I mean to include all expatriates in the discussion and the discussion to be about all expatriates, not just the Anglo- or Eurocentric. And I don't mean to include here discussion of the illegal Burmese worker problem, which is an issue of its own.

I'll start it off:

International schools have lost a fairly considerable number of students (around 50) from the Korean community.

I have heard of repatriation of various managers of enterprises in the industrial estates south of town. Anyone have any sense of the extent?

One hears of failing businesses. True? Are the owners still around?

Can certainly vouch for what you've heard about the reduction of expat staff numbers on the Lamphun Industrial Estates, I know of at least 10 myself and I suspect the actual figure is many times that number although companies are reluctant to go into details. The loss of these people is obviously due to reductions in demand brought about by the global recession and bearing in mind that most authorities seem to now believe that this is going to be with us for some time then this trend to reduce expat staff is likely to continue if not actually increase. If that's true then it follows that the numbers enrolled at the International Schools will also decrease leading in-turn to staff lay-offs.

When I first arrived in Chiangmai in 1979, foreigners were comparatively rare and I can't remember anybody who came here to actually retire; that phenomena seemed to begin in the mid to late 90's and continued apace right up to last year when economic reality kicked in. Thailand can be cheap but it can also be very expensive. If you live like a Thai then it's quite possible to live on less that 20,000 Baht a month but if you want a western lifestyle then you need plenty of money and the sky's the limit. The fact is that most expats don't live like Thais nor do they want to, hence the strain on their purse strings right now. WinnieTheKhwai has it in one when he writes "I think this topic would be equally if not more appropriate on a UK (for example) forum, as that's where the misery originates, not Thailand which is the same as ever. If money is a problem now then mistakes were made when calculating retirement needs and income." It is those very mistakes I think that will see a very large number of expats returning to their own countries. Incidentally I've seen the Baht range between 27 and 90 Baht to the Pound Sterling; it's just that many retirees only came here after the '97 crash and subsequent devaluation so I think they may have got a rather false impression.

From a personal point of view for the last 20 years I've been selling things in the UK that I export from here. This year I'll be exporting the least ever which means fewer orders for my suppliers; the high value of the baht is one thing but the main problem is reduced demand. Fortunately my wife, a Thai, has a good job and a high salary here in Thailand but for how long, who can say. We own houses in Thailand and the UK so could choose to live in either country without financial strain but I think the thing that will ultimately decide where we reside will not be money but more likely politics. Am I alone?

Your self and WinnieTheKhwai both make the same mistake.

You both assume it is all about money and employment. I have a friend who is on a waiting list for a retirement home in Canada. there is not a lot of options for some of the older people here. I belong to the expat club here in Chiang Mai and they were recently asking if people with some time to spare could visit a elderly lonely person. I don't really know about the rest of Thailand but I do know of one place that would pass for a retirement home here in Chiang Mai. I have heard talk of some people interested in starting another one. The average age of the expats is going up and two such places is not enough answers for that problem. It can only get worse. And yes I know you can hire some one but that is not a answer for every one. You will note I say answers becouse I am sure there are other solutions out there.:jap:

I have no figures for it but I do believe part of the exodus has some thing to do with the opinions some Thais have and there willingness to shove them down your throat with violent means.

Pleae define "retirement home"?

CB

[jayjay0]

Economic distress must certainly have hit just about everyone in the expatriate community. If it isn't the collapsing investment portfolio and the threat of lost retirement benefits, it might be the brutal change in some currency exchange rates of recent months. Sometimes it is both!

Some people are hunkering down; others are shipping out (or being shipped out by their companies). But it is very hard to get an overall view about what's going on. So, what do you know and what do you hear? I mean to include all expatriates in the discussion and the discussion to be about all expatriates, not just the Anglo- or Eurocentric. And I don't mean to include here discussion of the illegal Burmese worker problem, which is an issue of its own.

I'll start it off:

International schools have lost a fairly considerable number of students (around 50) from the Korean community.

I have heard of repatriation of various managers of enterprises in the industrial estates south of town. Anyone have any sense of the extent?

One hears of failing businesses. True? Are the owners still around?

Can certainly vouch for what you've heard about the reduction of expat staff numbers on the Lamphun Industrial Estates, I know of at least 10 myself and I suspect the actual figure is many times that number although companies are reluctant to go into details. The loss of these people is obviously due to reductions in demand brought about by the global recession and bearing in mind that most authorities seem to now believe that this is going to be with us for some time then this trend to reduce expat staff is likely to continue if not actually increase. If that's true then it follows that the numbers enrolled at the International Schools will also decrease leading in-turn to staff lay-offs.

When I first arrived in Chiangmai in 1979, foreigners were comparatively rare and I can't remember anybody who came here to actually retire; that phenomena seemed to begin in the mid to late 90's and continued apace right up to last year when economic reality kicked in. Thailand can be cheap but it can also be very expensive. If you live like a Thai then it's quite possible to live on less that 20,000 Baht a month but if you want a western lifestyle then you need plenty of money and the sky's the limit. The fact is that most expats don't live like Thais nor do they want to, hence the strain on their purse strings right now. WinnieTheKhwai has it in one when he writes "I think this topic would be equally if not more appropriate on a UK (for example) forum, as that's where the misery originates, not Thailand which is the same as ever. If money is a problem now then mistakes were made when calculating retirement needs and income." It is those very mistakes I think that will see a very large number of expats returning to their own countries. Incidentally I've seen the Baht range between 27 and 90 Baht to the Pound Sterling; it's just that many retirees only came here after the '97 crash and subsequent devaluation so I think they may have got a rather false impression.

From a personal point of view for the last 20 years I've been selling things in the UK that I export from here. This year I'll be exporting the least ever which means fewer orders for my suppliers; the high value of the baht is one thing but the main problem is reduced demand. Fortunately my wife, a Thai, has a good job and a high salary here in Thailand but for how long, who can say. We own houses in Thailand and the UK so could choose to live in either country without financial strain but I think the thing that will ultimately decide where we reside will not be money but more likely politics. Am I alone?

Your self and WinnieTheKhwai both make the same mistake.

You both assume it is all about money and employment. I have a friend who is on a waiting list for a retirement home in Canada. there is not a lot of options for some of the older people here. I belong to the expat club here in Chiang Mai and they were recently asking if people with some time to spare could visit a elderly lonely person. I don't really know about the rest of Thailand but I do know of one place that would pass for a retirement home here in Chiang Mai. I have heard talk of some people interested in starting another one. The average age of the expats is going up and two such places is not enough answers for that problem. It can only get worse. And yes I know you can hire some one but that is not a answer for every one. You will note I say answers becouse I am sure there are other solutions out there.:jap:

I have no figures for it but I do believe part of the exodus has some thing to do with the opinions some Thais have and there willingness to shove them down your throat with violent means.

Pleae define "retirement home"?

CB

That is a tough one.

They can vary in function. The one thing they have in common is they are for older people not retiree's all though the clients are retiree's. A young retiree would not be allowed in them.

In general they have staff able to react to a medical emergency. Your every day needs are met living needs that is. Most of them will have activities for the older people. In general you are interacting with mainly people your own age and it is at hand not a special event across town. Not every ones cup of tea but very attractive to some.

I was sorry to see this point ignored there is more to it and it would have been interesting to see some different points of view. I in no way have all the information on it.

[cardinalblue]

I think the term 'retirement home" evolved over the years when somewhere the nursing home came into being as people started living longer and thus more medical care/attention. It is an intersting term though not sure it really fits the Thai culture which is not as segregated by age as ours are...

I do know in Calif and the west coast there are many called retirement communities where age (and money/halves of the world) is the only criteria to live there. Usually these can be quite small like carmel valley manor (a few hundred) to quite large like Rossmoor ( 7,500 inhabitants). The main draws are security, common ground maintenance, social clubs and activities, golf courses, swimming pools, tennis courts, and health care which is a biggie....

There will be a need for more places like Dok Gardens (a skilled nursing facility) as the western population ages requiring medical and personal care. As to whether an aging western/ex-pat population wants a 'retiremnet home" type venue remains to be seen.

This concept which i endorse runs counter to how the thai society is set up. Usually ex-pats want to integrate into a foreign culture not to be isolated from it which is how retirement communities function back home...My guess is if you are weathy enough to live in these western retirement communities, one will do so and not look overseas for retirement usually for economic advantages...

That said, still might be enough of a demand for a small type retirement venue. That is, of course, the guy outlives his younger Thai partner

CB

[jayjay0]

I think the term 'retirement home" evolved over the years when somewhere the nursing home came into being as people started living longer and thus more medical care/attention. It is an intersting term though not sure it really fits the Thai culture which is not as segregated by age as ours are...

I do know in Calif and the west coast there are many called retirement communities where age (and money/halves of the world) is the only criteria to live there. Usually these can be quite small like carmel valley manor (a few hundred) to quite large like Rossmoor ( 7,500 inhabitants). The main draws are security, common ground maintenance, social clubs and activities, golf courses, swimming pools, tennis courts, and health care which is a biggie....

There will be a need for more places like Dok Gardens (a skilled nursing facility) as the western population ages requiring medical and personal care. As to whether an aging western/ex-pat population wants a 'retiremnet home" type venue remains to be seen.

This concept which i endorse runs counter to how the thai society is set up. Usually ex-pats want to integrate into a foreign culture not to be isolated from it which is how retirement communities function back home...My guess is if you are weathy enough to live in these western retirement communities, one will do so and not look overseas for retirement usually for economic advantages...

That said, still might be enough of a demand for a small type retirement venue. That is, of course, the guy outlives his younger Thai partner

CB

Not sure where you live but here in Chiang Mai we have a facility that some what fits into the retirement home and medical facility. It is new and sponsored by a church It has been in existence for over 100 years most of the early times was related to care for lepers. If you are interested [just for information] the web is mckeanhosp.org/home. It is a interesting place We had a resident at the hotel I live in go out there while he recovered from Surgery. I went out to visit him and was impressed. It is on over 50 acres and has a hospital that I did not bother to go see. Supposedly all though small It is not old and run down. The wing he stayed in had 4 rooms and the doors at each end of the hall could be locked for the Alzheimer people. 12 rooms you can rent for 24,000 all inclusive. Worth a look if for just no other reason just information.

[cardinalblue]

I think the term 'retirement home" evolved over the years when somewhere the nursing home came into being as people started living longer and thus more medical care/attention. It is an intersting term though not sure it really fits the Thai culture which is not as segregated by age as ours are...

I do know in Calif and the west coast there are many called retirement communities where age (and money/halves of the world) is the only criteria to live there. Usually these can be quite small like carmel valley manor (a few hundred) to quite large like Rossmoor ( 7,500 inhabitants). The main draws are security, common ground maintenance, social clubs and activities, golf courses, swimming pools, tennis courts, and health care which is a biggie....

There will be a need for more places like Dok Gardens (a skilled nursing facility) as the western population ages requiring medical and personal care. As to whether an aging western/ex-pat population wants a 'retiremnet home" type venue remains to be seen.

This concept which i endorse runs counter to how the thai society is set up. Usually ex-pats want to integrate into a foreign culture not to be isolated from it which is how retirement communities function back home...My guess is if you are weathy enough to live in these western retirement communities, one will do so and not look overseas for retirement usually for economic advantages...

That said, still might be enough of a demand for a small type retirement venue. That is, of course, the guy outlives his younger Thai partner

CB

Not sure where you live but here in Chiang Mai we have a facility that some what fits into the retirement home and medical facility. It is new and sponsored by a church It has been in existence for over 100 years most of the early times was related to care for lepers. If you are interested [just for information] the web is mckeanhosp.org/home. It is a interesting place We had a resident at the hotel I live in go out there while he recovered from Surgery. I went out to visit him and was impressed. It is on over 50 acres and has a hospital that I did not bother to go see. Supposedly all though small It is not old and run down. The wing he stayed in had 4 rooms and the doors at each end of the hall could be locked for the Alzheimer people. 12 rooms you can rent for 24,000 all inclusive. Worth a look if for just no other reason just information.

In my previous post, I believe I mentioned Dok Kaew Gardens which is the place you are making reference to. I really don't view that place as a retirement home but more in the context of a nursing facility or long-term facility. It might not even meet the defintion of a Skilled Nursing Facility b/c the concept is so new to Thailand. This is a brand new place which just opened so it is a real canary to see if there is a demand out there and they do a good job of marketing. Yes, the original foundation is 100+ years with Cristian roots (McKlean hosp and rehab) and am guessing that is funding this enterprise. In my eyes, there is a much more need for this type of facility than a retirement community. In one foreigner's view, Chiang Mai can be looked as a somewhat retirement community in general.

I do think there is a business opportunity for this type of facility but only appealing to a small distinct market. I call them post-retirement as their need is driven by health care and their limited ability to be mobile/take care of themselves and becoming less independent with each passing day..As a kid, we used to call these places "being put out to pasture" and the severity of the place could be measured how bad the urine stench permeating the hallways...I think the image of nursing homes is better today than yesteryear...

CB

[jayjay0]

cardinablue

"In my previous post, I believe I mentioned Dok Kaew Gardens which is the place you are making reference to. I really don't view that place as a retirement home but more in the context of a nursing facility or long-term facility. It might not even meet the defintion of a Skilled Nursing Facility b/c the concept is so new to Thailand. This is a brand new place which just opened so it is a real canary to see if there is a demand out there and they do a good job of marketing. Yes, the original foundation is 100+ years with Cristian roots (McKlean hosp and rehab) and am guessing that is funding this enterprise. In my eyes, there is a much more need for this type of facility than a retirement community. In one foreigner's view, Chiang Mai can be looked as a somewhat retirement community in general.

I do think there is a business opportunity for this type of facility but only appealing to a small distinct market. I call them post-retirement as their need is driven by health care and their limited ability to be mobile/take care of themselves and becoming less independent with each passing day..As a kid, we used to call these places "being put out to pasture" and the severity of the place could be measured how bad the urine stench permeating the hallways...I think the image of nursing homes is better today than yesteryear..."

I didn't know it is known as Dok Kaew gardens. Makes no difference. I agree it is not exactly a retirement home all though I am told you can rent one of the rooms for a all in price and not be disabled. At any rate I can see the call for more of these type facilities. The expat community if not growing now will and they are getting older. Being a expat does not give you the family that the Thais have. So some of the elderly people will be looking for just such a place. I don't really see a huge demand for them but I do see where the use of more of them could develop. The person who I went to visit went home to a daughter who was willing to take care of him.

I believe that as time passes some body will come up with some thing. I all ready know of two people looking in to it. They have both been out to McKeen and feel that is not what they want. Time will tell and as I mentioned at the start I personally know one person on a waiting list in Canada to get into a retirement home. Thank you for the origanal thinking.

[F4UCorsair]

Perhaps a little off topic, but it could be seen to be relevant?? What are current interest rates ofered by Thai banks?

Just interested because I would look at transferring 30% of what I have at a favourable exchange rate (when that occurs, and right now at almost THB29 = AUD1 seems it may be right). Interest rates of 5%+ woould be similar to what I get in Australia, but still not the dividend that many companies are paying on shares. It is spreading the risk though.

Reference the previous post, jayjay0 said "and the severity of the place could be measured how bad the urine stench permeating the hallways...I think the image of nursing homes is better today than yesteryear..."

There's a joke about that; What's 50 feet long and smells of urine?? A line dance at a retirement home.

What a shame it's going to get us all.

Edited July 30, 2010 by F4UCorsair

[sabaijai]

I wonder if some expats move from one part of Thailand to another to save money? There are many cheaper places than Chiang Mai in Thailand, for example. I just got back from Nong Khai, which appears to be less expensive, judging from the rents friends there are paying. Food also cheaper, beer at local bars ditto.

I'm back and forth between Bangkok and Chiang Mai, with homes in both cities. My apartment in Bkk is considered a real bargain for Bangkok but would fetch only about half the rent if it were in Chiang Mai. That seems to apply pretty much across the board - rents about 50% higher in Bangkok compared with CM.

Re food, if you're talking about Thai restaurants, the food in Bangkok is generally cheaper - and of much better quality, in general IMO - than the Thai food in Chiang Mai. Western food, on the other hand, is more expensive. Ditto bars.

Public transport is generally cheaper in Bangkok, if you look at buses vs red songthaews, or even metered taxis vs red songthaews, when estimated door to door. Nightlife is more expensive in Bkk than in Chiang Mai. Then again, by comparison nightlife in CM is almost nil. But I can't imagine that anyone would choose Bkk over Chiang Mai for cheap living, retirement, etc. Bangkok is for big-city people who like meeting folks of the same ilk, and for people who prefer a more varied and lively arts and entertainment scene. And if you're looking for work or for business deals, Bangkok is where the money is.

That leaves a lot of choices around Thailand for everyone else.

[CaptHaddock]

I'm back and forth between Bangkok and Chiang Mai, with homes in both cities. My apartment in Bkk is considered a real bargain for Bangkok but would fetch only about half the rent if it were in Chiang Mai. That seems to apply pretty much across the board - rents about 50% higher in Bangkok compared with CM.

Not so handy with the math, eh?  If the CM apartment fetches half the rent of the BKK apartment, then the BKK apart is 100% more then the CM, not 50%.

[Ulysses G.]

He is handy with just about everything else. SJ speaks Thai like a Thai and is accomplished at just about everything he does. However, he is not always right about restaurants, so should not get too swelled a head.

[NaChampain]

He is handy with just about everything else. SJ speaks Thai like a Thai and is accomplished at just about everything he does. However, he is not always right about restaurants, so should not get too swelled a head.

Great post. The variety of off subject posts are great.

[Ulysses G.]

Brown-nosing the mods is always on topic!

[harrry]

He did not say if the bookshops were better than in Bangkok

[ChiangMaiFun]

We should do a survey of what budget people are living on here - if I knew how to insert one of those survey things I would. I knoiw some farangs living on very low incomes here - 20,000 or so and others who need 140,000 so the range is vast.

[Thakkar]

We should do a survey of what budget people are living on here - if I knew how to insert one of those survey things I would. I knoiw some farangs living on very low incomes here - 20,000 or so and others who need 140,000 so the range is vast.

Wouldn't be a very meaningful survey as too many variations in lifestyle:

Married/single

Bar scene/no bar scene

love Thai food/hate Thai food

Kids? How many? What kind of school?

Living in city or in the sticks?

Driving a big SUV or managing with a bicycle?

Edited August 1, 2010 by Thakkar

[ChiangMaiFun]

We should do a survey of what budget people are living on here - if I knew how to insert one of those survey things I would. I knoiw some farangs living on very low incomes here - 20,000 or so and others who need 140,000 so the range is vast.

Wouldn't be a very meaningful survey as too many variations in lifestyle:

Married/single

Bar scene/no bar scene

love Thai food/hate Thai food

Kids? How many? What kind of school?

Living in city or in the sticks?

Driving a big SUV or managing with a bicycle?

I take your point but those are lifestyle choices - it would still be interesting to know what the range was - forget about whether they have kids or not - their choice - but it would be interesting to know what people are living on here - I guess if we could incorporate all your points it would be more accurate but a long survey!

I'm thinking 40,000 to 50,000 would be the average retirement income - maybe 70,000?

[Thakkar]

We should do a survey of what budget people are living on here - if I knew how to insert one of those survey things I would. I knoiw some farangs living on very low incomes here - 20,000 or so and others who need 140,000 so the range is vast.

Wouldn't be a very meaningful survey as too many variations in lifestyle:

Married/single

Bar scene/no bar scene

love Thai food/hate Thai food

Kids? How many? What kind of school?

Living in city or in the sticks?

Driving a big SUV or managing with a bicycle?

I take your point but those are lifestyle choices - it would still be interesting to know what the range was - forget about whether they have kids or not - their choice - but it would be interesting to know what people are living on here - I guess if we could incorporate all your points it would be more accurate but a long survey!

I'm thinking 40,000 to 50,000 would be the average retirement income - maybe 70,000?

Like you, I think it would certainly be interesting to know how other expats live. Sadly, on the internet everyone's either a brilliant investor/software whiz/sh*ts gold bricks, earns millions and spends 500k a month or has proudly gone native and lives happily on 10k/month.

Still, for what it's worth, and if it helps, here's what I've gleaned from talking to people who aren't prone to BS: between 30k/month to120k. The most common number I hear is 60k, but that obviously reflects my circle of acquaintances. And this is for Chiangmai.

[NaChampain]

We should do a survey of what budget people are living on here - if I knew how to insert one of those survey things I would. I knoiw some farangs living on very low incomes here - 20,000 or so and others who need 140,000 so the range is vast.

Wouldn't be a very meaningful survey as too many variations in lifestyle:

Married/single

Bar scene/no bar scene

love Thai food/hate Thai food

Kids? How many? What kind of school?

Living in city or in the sticks?

Driving a big SUV or managing with a bicycle?

I take your point but those are lifestyle choices - it would still be interesting to know what the range was - forget about whether they have kids or not - their choice - but it would be interesting to know what people are living on here - I guess if we could incorporate all your points it would be more accurate but a long survey!

I'm thinking 40,000 to 50,000 would be the average retirement income - maybe 70,000?

And People come and go. Life is impermanent all over the world. I am trying to scrape by on my budget, but I have found a great way to make extra income - Buy a lot of books at Bookazine, Asia books, B2S and then resell them at the various 2hand bookstores in CNX - great way to make money Well, anyhow I have seen comments about these 2hand bookstores, but have never actually been to one - Is it great and would it make an expatriate stay or run away from Thailand. That's the question I am pondering right now. Not to go off topic....

[Sparkles]

We should do a survey of what budget people are living on here - if I knew how to insert one of those survey things I would. I knoiw some farangs living on very low incomes here - 20,000 or so and others who need 140,000 so the range is vast.

Wouldn't be a very meaningful survey as too many variations in lifestyle:

Married/single

Bar scene/no bar scene

love Thai food/hate Thai food

Kids? How many? What kind of school?

Living in city or in the sticks?

Driving a big SUV or managing with a bicycle?

I take your point but those are lifestyle choices - it would still be interesting to know what the range was - forget about whether they have kids or not - their choice - but it would be interesting to know what people are living on here - I guess if we could incorporate all your points it would be more accurate but a long survey!

I'm thinking 40,000 to 50,000 would be the average retirement income - maybe 70,000?

For retired Australians living here and relying purely on income from the aged pension you are looking at around 35,000 baht a month depending on the fortunes of the constantly fluctuating Oz dollar.

[ChiangMaiFun]

We should do a survey of what budget people are living on here - if I knew how to insert one of those survey things I would. I knoiw some farangs living on very low incomes here - 20,000 or so and others who need 140,000 so the range is vast.

Wouldn't be a very meaningful survey as too many variations in lifestyle:

Married/single

Bar scene/no bar scene

love Thai food/hate Thai food

Kids? How many? What kind of school?

Living in city or in the sticks?

Driving a big SUV or managing with a bicycle?

I take your point but those are lifestyle choices - it would still be interesting to know what the range was - forget about whether they have kids or not - their choice - but it would be interesting to know what people are living on here - I guess if we could incorporate all your points it would be more accurate but a long survey!

I'm thinking 40,000 to 50,000 would be the average retirement income - maybe 70,000?

Like you, I think it would certainly be interesting to know how other expats live. Sadly, on the internet everyone's either a brilliant investor/software whiz/sh*ts gold bricks, earns millions and spends 500k a month or has proudly gone native and lives happily on 10k/month.

Still, for what it's worth, and if it helps, here's what I've gleaned from talking to people who aren't prone to BS: between 30k/month to120k. The most common number I hear is 60k, but that obviously reflects my circle of acquaintances. And this is for Chiangmai.

yes about 60,000 seems the norm - that's my budget with no rent to pay in CM

[Thakkar]

Chiangmaifun said:

We should do a survey of what budget people are living on here - if I knew how to insert one of those survey things I would. I knoiw some farangs living on very low incomes here - 20,000 or so and others who need 140,000 so the range is vast.

Wouldn't be a very meaningful survey as too many variations in lifestyle:

Married/single

Bar scene/no bar scene

love Thai food/hate Thai food

Kids? How many? What kind of school?

Living in city or in the sticks?

Driving a big SUV or managing with a bicycle?

I take your point but those are lifestyle choices - it would still be interesting to know what the range was - forget about whether they have kids or not - their choice - but it would be interesting to know what people are living on here - I guess if we could incorporate all your points it would be more accurate but a long survey!

I'm thinking 40,000 to 50,000 would be the average retirement income - maybe 70,000?

Like you, I think it would certainly be interesting to know how other expats live. Sadly, on the internet everyone's either a brilliant investor/software whiz/sh*ts gold bricks, earns millions and spends 500k a month or has proudly gone native and lives happily on 10k/month.

Still, for what it's worth, and if it helps, here's what I've gleaned from talking to people who aren't prone to BS: between 30k/month to120k. The most common number I hear is 60k, but that obviously reflects my circle of acquaintances. And this is for Chiangmai.

yes about 60,000 seems the norm - that's my budget with no rent to pay in CM

Then it seems you 'qualify' to join my circle of acquaintances

60k excluding rent would comfortably cover living, driving, utilities, eating out, groceries, good health insurance and incidentals plus a little left over for a couple of short in-country holidays a year + one one out country asian holiday.

[sabaijai]

I'm back and forth between Bangkok and Chiang Mai, with homes in both cities. My apartment in Bkk is considered a real bargain for Bangkok but would fetch only about half the rent if it were in Chiang Mai. That seems to apply pretty much across the board - rents about 50% higher in Bangkok compared with CM.

Not so handy with the math, eh? If the CM apartment fetches half the rent of the BKK apartment, then the BKK apart is 100% more then the CM, not 50%.

I suck at math, but isn't what I wrote clear? Probably not. What I meant was, if the apt I occupy in Bangkok were in Chiang Mai, it would cost half as much (50%) as it does in Bangkok. If it cost 100% less, it would be free, right?

Am I still off? Very possible.

UG I appreciate the compliments! But I'm pretty good on restaurants or at least I know what I like.

[OriginalPoster]

I'm back and forth between Bangkok and Chiang Mai, with homes in both cities. My apartment in Bkk is considered a real bargain for Bangkok but would fetch only about half the rent if it were in Chiang Mai. That seems to apply pretty much across the board - rents about 50% higher in Bangkok compared with CM.

Not so handy with the math, eh? If the CM apartment fetches half the rent of the BKK apartment, then the BKK apart is 100% more then the CM, not 50%.

I suck at math, but isn't what I wrote clear? Probably not. What I meant was, if the apt I occupy in Bangkok were in Chiang Mai, it would cost half as much (50%) as it does in Bangkok. If it cost 100% less, it would be free, right?

Am I still off? Very possible.

In that case, I believe the way the math works out is that the apartment in Chiang Mai costs 50% less than the price of a Bangkok apartment and the Bangkok apartment costs 100% more than the the price of the Chiang Mai apartment.

Edited August 4, 2010 by OriginalPoster

[WinnieTheKhwai]

LOL, correct. Though I think rents in BKK can really go WAY high, if you're only paying double (100% more if you will ) then you're indeed doing very well.

Overall I'm happy to see everyone gets by on a reasonable amount of money. I feel a little less poor now.

[ChiangMaiFun]

I'm back and forth between Bangkok and Chiang Mai, with homes in both cities. My apartment in Bkk is considered a real bargain for Bangkok but would fetch only about half the rent if it were in Chiang Mai. That seems to apply pretty much across the board - rents about 50% higher in Bangkok compared with CM.

Not so handy with the math, eh? If the CM apartment fetches half the rent of the BKK apartment, then the BKK apart is 100% more then the CM, not 50%.

I suck at math, but isn't what I wrote clear? Probably not. What I meant was, if the apt I occupy in Bangkok were in Chiang Mai, it would cost half as much (50%) as it does in Bangkok. If it cost 100% less, it would be free, right?

Am I still off? Very possible.

UG I appreciate the compliments! But I'm pretty good on restaurants or at least I know what I like.

I've never heard of this kind of logic I must confess... so it means if I could buy a car in BKK for 100,000 for 50,000 in CM it's free?

[thaimiller]

On an average month, I live on about 30-40k THB, I earn quite a bit more than that but why spend it for spending sake. I try to save as much as I can as you never know when things can turn.

[jayjay0]

On an average month, I live on about 30-40k THB, I earn quite a bit more than that but why spend it for spending sake. I try to save as much as I can as you never know when things can turn.

[/quote

I try to get by on 50,000 Baht a month my income is much higher but I save it for holidays. Less than 100,000 Mine is a fixed income. That would be interesting to see how many are working how many are retired how many plan on making Thailand there home. I thinkl that question was asked on another survey by Blinky Bill.

To the people who answered 60,000 that is the minimum requirement for a retirement visa. Unless you are married to a Thai then I am told it is only 40,000

It would be interesting to see the figures but as has been pointed out open to different interpretations.

[jayjay0]

Here is the chart from Blinnie's unofficial pole. What struck me was the high percentage that do not plan on seeing there days out here in Thailand. I wonder how many of them have a country picked out to do that in and how many are planning on going home. With that being there plan would they be truly an expat. Or just a tourist with a long time frame. Just wondering.

How old are you?

1. Under 20 yrs (0 votes [0.00%]) Percentage of vote: 0.00%
2. 20 - 25 yrs (3 votes [1.58%]) Percentage of vote: 1.58%
3. 26 - 30 yrs (15 votes [7.89%]) Percentage of vote: 7.89%
4. 31 - 35 yrs (19 votes [10.00%]) Percentage of vote: 10.00%
5. 36 - 40 yrs (25 votes [13.16%]) Percentage of vote: 13.16%
6. 41 - 45 yrs (13 votes [6.84%]) Percentage of vote: 6.84%
7. 46 - 50 yrs (21 votes [11.05%]) Percentage of vote: 11.05%
8. 51 - 60 yrs (42 votes [22.11%]) Percentage of vote: 22.11%
9. 61 - 70 yrs (46 votes [24.21%]) Percentage of vote: 24.21%
10. 71 - 80 yrs (4 votes [2.11%]) Percentage of vote: 2.11%
11. 80+ yrs (2 votes [1.05%]) Percentage of vote: 1.05%

How long have you been in Chiang Mai?

1. Less than 1 year (32 votes [16.84%]) Percentage of vote: 16.84%
2. 1 - 3 yrs (38 votes [20.00%]) Percentage of vote: 20.00%
3. 1 - 5 yrs (39 votes [20.53%]) Percentage of vote: 20.53%
4. 1 - 10 yrs (43 votes [22.63%]) Percentage of vote: 22.63%
5. 1 - 15 yrs (14 votes [7.37%]) Percentage of vote: 7.37%
6. 1 - 20 yrs (10 votes [5.26%]) Percentage of vote: 5.26%
7. 1 - 25 yrs (7 votes [3.68%]) Percentage of vote: 3.68%
8. 1 - 30 yrs (3 votes [1.58%]) Percentage of vote: 1.58%
9. 1 - 35 yrs (1 votes [0.53%]) Percentage of vote: 0.53%
10. More than 35 yrs (3 votes [1.58%]) Percentage of vote: 1.58%

Did you come to Thailand to see your days out?

1. Yes (72 votes [37.89%]) Percentage of vote: 37.89%
2. No (118 votes [62.11%]) Percentage of vote: 62.11%

Vote

[Nuff Said]

Aagainst the trend by the looks of things, I will be returning to live in Chiang Mai in the not too distant future.

I left Thailand for pastures new early last year, but haven't settled, and will be returning 'home' as soon as possible. Thailand may not be perfect, but its not that bad after all.

Thank god I did not sell my condo. With the strength of the Baht and the weakness of the Euro it would have cost me considerabely more if I had to buy a similar place at todays exchange rates, and that's without taking transfer fees etc into acount.

Edited August 6, 2010 by Nuff Said

[Berkshire]

Thailand may not be perfect, but its not that bad after all.

And therein lies the truth that many expats have yet to grasp.