Something Eek Said In Another Thread.

[GrahamF]

"You know are in Thailand when some Western men look at you with contempt, purely because you are a white Western female (sorry, but thats true). (But, at the same time, i know some really lovely Western men who are real gentlemen..and have had some nice simple interactions, such as men holding open a door for me. Always return the gesture with a smile and a thank you. )." Quote from Eeek in another thread

During my trips to Thailand when I have seen white women, I have never thought of them with contempt, what I have wondered though is life "tougher" for them than a white guys. How are they treated by the Thais? How are they treated by other ex-pats? What unique things does an ex-pat lady face here?

I really hope that no one know one finds this question offensive, I have always been curious. My gut tells me that the ladies would probably face more challenges in Thailand than men, call me a chauvanist if you will, and I think highly of them.

[britmaveric]

Seen contempt from western ladies equally as much as western me. At the end of the day who cares, those who show contempt - they are the ones who have a problem.

[SiamSuzi]

I'll chime in here because this topic has been on my mind lately. I can't speak for everyone else, but I've had a pretty difficult time. I came here a number of years ago with my boyfriend and had such a lovely time that I've returned, only this time on my own. My experience this time has been often terrible. I attribute it to the fact that there is not a white man at my side that people are busy catering to. I experience the occasional look of contempt from other farang. I suspect that they are idiots who truly believe that all Thai women are sweet little flowers compared to farang women. They are probably spending all their money on whores.

I am also the target con artists trying to scam me out of my money. At times it's terribly difficult to catch a taxi anywhere because I insist on using the meter. The drivers assume that because I'm young, Western, and blonde, that I'm a dumbass and will believe when they say that 450 baht is a good deal because there's "so much traffic" or it's "so far away". Obviously I know better and refuse, yet they will lie and try to pursuade me out of my wallet until they haven't any breath left to lie with. Sometimes I have to try 5 or 6 times before I can get a taxi that will just use the damned meter. I also have to pay attention to the route they are taking because sometimes they will attempt to take the "long" way to jack up the meter. The **** even have the nerve to act like they don't understand English when I object, though they were understanding English just fine during our casual conversation that THEY struck up only moments before. This type of crap applies not only to taxi drivers, but in a long list of other circumstances as well.

I am also treated like a piece of shit by so many Thai women. Whether it's the**** behind the counter at the 7-11 that I stopped frequenting because she rips items out of my hand, throws them in a bag and then throws the bag at me, or the ****who step right in front of me while I've been waiting in a long line at stores, or girls who simply roll their eyes as I walk by minding my own business, etc., the list goes on.

Maybe I'm too polite, but that's beginning to change because I'm actually getting sick of this place. In many ways, I can't wait to get back home to the country that treats me fairly, or at least when they treat me like shit it's for some reason other than the color of my skin.

I thought I loved this country, but now I see that the only reason people were being so nice on my last visit is because they were trying to get the money they assumed that my white boyfriend had plenty of. Now that I'm solo, there's no one who's presence keeps the hounds at bay.

Seriously, every day here I spend part of it enjoying the pleasant things that make it unique, and part of it in disgust by the people who make it vile and nasty.

I admit, I'm in a bad mood right now. But it's not because I woke up that way, it's because of the people who rained on what would have otherwise been a sunny day.

[canincm]

I'm in Chiang Mai, and I don't feel the negative vibes so much... though I do get some pretty crazy prices from the songthaew drivers!

[eek]

Oh my..what can of worms did i potentially open!

Agree with what Brit says. Plus generally the kind of men (or women) who would be like that, are not the kind of people I would have any interaction with.

I can only speak for myself, not other women (and bare with me..its late for me and im sleepy..so i may waffle more than usual). All i know is I love my life in Thailand. I can leave any time that i want, its my choice to be here. My partner is Thai and my interactions with Thai have rarely left me feeling anything but positive. Maybe its the area i live? I have no idea. I find CM for the most part full of nice people. Usually the ones who may give the 'evil eye' are a certain kind of western expat (i guess add an S to that to get a better picture..sorry to say, but I do get that impression..)or some western tourists. Whatever their reasons are im not quite sure..negative associations? ..maybe that is an interesting point in itself. Even on this board I read quite a few negative cliches about western women. Sad really, but what can one do? Occasionally I have lost my patience and had a rant on TV when some member has gone ott on the Western Woman bashing..but mostly I cant be bothered.

Ok..this next bit im trying to word careful so as not to "bait" or cause offense.. I also seems to me that some western men think women dont have a good time here. Maybe because some feel their status (and ego) is elevated due to having pretty girls interested in them (which may not have happened quite so much in the west), so they develop this notion that no western man will be interested any more in western women (or even factor in that many western women, myself included, love and enjoy the company of Thai men, and often do happily settle down with a Thai man).

Also, i think women can have it easier in the sense that others dont label them as easily as western men. I remember one sweet man telling me over a coffee how he is fed up that people assume because he is a single man here, he must be some kind of sexpat. Women (I believe) would not get the same hassle. Nor has any taxi driver in bangkok asked me if i want to go see a "show" or whatever, which im sure may get annoying for many men.

Hmm..im right..im definitely waffling...will think more clearly about this one later

Edited March 7, 2009 by eek

[eek]

I'll chime in here because this topic has been on my mind lately. I can't speak for everyone else, but I've had a pretty difficult time. I came here a number of years ago with my boyfriend and had such a lovely time that I've returned, only this time on my own. My experience this time has been often terrible. I attribute it to the fact that there is not a white man at my side that people are busy catering to. I experience the occasional look of contempt from other farang. I suspect that they are idiots who truly believe that all Thai women are sweet little flowers compared to farang women. They are probably spending all their money on whores.

*snipped*

I admit, I'm in a bad mood right now. But it's not because I woke up that way, it's because of the people who rained on what would have otherwise been a sunny day.

Oh wow...im a bit lost for words..

Sorry your experience has been so negative. When I first arrived in Thailand, i also did so alone..but apart from one or two not great experiences, my own experiences have been positive..certainly nothing like yours. Then again, sounds like you have been living in Bangkok (right?), which I have spent only a short time in (and didnt like the feel much). I wouldnt write off all of Thailand and Thai people based on a large city like that. If you can, might be worth trying out a new place to stay (or at least visit).

[kenai]

I admit, I'm in a bad mood right now. But it's not because I woke up that way, it's because of the people who rained on what would have otherwise been a sunny day.

SiamSuzi I hope your having a better day.

Im not a woman but I can relate a bit to your experiences. My first trip to thailand I spent 5 days alone in BKK waiting for a friend from the US to meet me there. By about day 4 I had had enough. For me it was the cab drivers constantly trying to push massage parlors onto me. As well as petty schemers - I tried to resort to tuk-tuks but that wasnt always an option and many of them had the same intentions just cant talk and drive as well in a tuk-tuk. Traveling alone is harder because you cant vent and let off steam by talking about and sharing the experience with someone. You might have laughed about some of it if you had experienced it with a friend.

I found it interesting you experienced the line-cut as well. Ive had this happen twice in the last month. The second time my wife was standing with me and she saw it plain as day as well. Both times it was a high school aged girl cutting. A few days ago my wife had it happen to her in a 7-11. I thought it was happening to me - due to being farang but my wife is thai. She was pissed to get cut in front of as well. The only thing I can think is a scooter driving mentality when it comes to lines but im still trying to figure it out. My wife is equally confused with it.

Im not sure where you have been or where your planning to go, but for me BKK just isnt the real Thailand. If your experiencing most of this there I say go north. And dont let a few people get you down. Its not perfect here or there, just enjoy the experience of it all. My thoughts -

[redfish44]

I'll chime in here because this topic has been on my mind lately. I can't speak for everyone else, but I've had a pretty difficult time....

...I admit, I'm in a bad mood right now. But it's not because I woke up that way, it's because of the people who rained on what would have otherwise been a sunny day.

Fabulous last line to a very stressed post there SiamSuzi - wish I could write so well when so annoyed.

I can relate to the cab thing in Bangers, Phuket and Krabi, and everynow and then even get it on Lanta, but I just walk off.

Although I did have a nasty encounter with an idiot cabbie from the airport in Krabi (never use the taxi service from the lady in the blue shirt - I was tired an jetlagged, bad call). The driver thought he'd take me for a ride - not realising I knew my way around. He refused to believe I knew what I was talking about, so I called my boyfriend and put the cabbie on the phone to him thinking he's sort him out, but the phone died. So I told the driver to go another 50m and take himself to the local police station around the corner, and what do you know I ended up getting to go where I wanted to be after all.

My Thai teacher on Lanta (Thai local girl) says the taxi drivers are even rude to her and her friends and say nasty stuff to them too if they don't want a taxi or say its too much (in Thai and they all speak Thai), so don't take the cab thing personally.

If you get really fed up/stressed with the taxi situation, head to a big hotel, take a few minutes to chill in the lobby then ask the concierge to call you a metered taxi. There will probably be a call out fee, but I use this one as a last resort in many cities world over.

I definitely think it is tougher in Bangkok (is that where you are SiamSuzi?) than elsewhere in Thailand, but you can't really judge many countries on their biggest city.

[redfish44]

In response to the original post and topic:

I have been visiting Thailand since 98 when I first came here by myself, young and as green as anything. I had very few problems then as a young single female. Thais were more suprised and curious as to why I was by myself, especially out of the big cities. The only thing that ever threatened me in the country areas were bloody huge buffalo that were less than impressed with my wanderings.

I got dumped by a bus in a dodgy part of Surat Thani at midnight once, and everyone seemed to be transfixed by me with "what the..." expressions on their faces as I wandered around looking for food and somehwere to sleep - I had no problems at all and ended up feeling quite safe as there were so many wondering who I was and what I was doing, all trying to be helpful in spite of a total language barrier.

The only place I ever had a problem was ChinaTown in Bangkok - not Thai at all really.

I discovered later this is one of the easiest countries in the world to travel and relax as a single female, of any age. The fact that Thais respect personal space is a biggie, and always a shock for me when I get back to Europe and Africa and find that missing.

No one has ever tried to touch or grab me here, and very rarely do locals ever try to chat me up. I like that as a single girl people will smile but leave you alone, in peace - doesn't happen in France.

As a single chick I was completely unaware of the sex tourism stuff until a male friend pointed it out in Koh Samui 10 years ago, and only then I noticed that he got treated completely different to me. I often got offered a lift home on a motorcycle while I was walking back from a place I had been (cluelessly) having a beer - from one of the local girls or lady boys I'd seen earlier in the evening.

Female friends on Lanta have told me of taxi drivers and passing motorists pulling up and giving them free lifts during heavy rains or hot weather.

I delight in the fact no one has ever tried to sell me porn, as opposed to male friends who often have to struggle through offers of it when trying and purchase electrical/computer stuff.

As a female, I feel less like a piece of meat than I do in western countries, and I feel the Thais I know here see more of your personality (or heart - jai) than your looks, which is nice (especially if you look like you've been dragged through a paddock backwards).

I love the lack of blatant T&A in general programming on Thai TV (although as a result I now get completely shocked by most tv commercials if I go back to Australia).

I also thank God that Thailand is one of the few countries on this earth that does not consider butt crack a fashion accessory (that put me off social occasions in Aus a few years ago).

As a female I seem to have more interaction with local women and kids, and get invited to all sorts of random community and family type things than I think the average foreign guy would. I think it is possibly easier to be a foreign female here than male, unless perhaps you are dealing with bureaucracy.

[redfish44]

...I found it interesting you experienced the line-cut as well. Ive had this happen twice in the last month. The second time my wife was standing with me and she saw it plain as day as well. Both times it was a high school aged girl cutting. A few days ago my wife had it happen to her in a 7-11. I thought it was happening to me - due to being farang but my wife is thai. She was pissed to get cut in front of as well. The only thing I can think is a scooter driving mentality when it comes to lines but im still trying to figure it out. My wife is equally confused with it....

The cutting in line thing and not getting served thing is new in recent years I think.

It happens to me at one particular 7-11 on Lanta only; I have decided they are just rude lazy cows, so try not to go there. They will serve all Thais who enter the store before me, although the other Thais don't cut in line - the woman asks them to hand their things over me to be scanned and they stand there looking embarassed. Mind you, only one of them will be serving - with a scowl, the other 2 will be painting fingernails and talking on a mobile phone.

I think in general it is one of those sign-of-the-times things, as seems to be mostly spoilt brats that do it in Bangkok. Unfortunately there are a lot of them now in recent years, and I fear Bangkok maybe going down the path that Singapore and Australia have gone in recent years: the one with the moral slide.

I had an awful experience last time I was in Bangkok: suffering from jet lag and exhaustion, some dodgy electrical cable running over uneven flooring near Paragon got the better of me and I tripped and fell, landing quite hurt and shocked. A number of teenagers actually stepped over me while I was lying on the ground. Eventually an old lady of about 80+ came to my rescue and helped me to my feet. I burst into tears as another group of stampeding squawking teenagers almost pushed me back down, so the old lady helped me down the stairs. She was the only person who seemed to notice I existed. I don't know who she was but I love her.

Let me show my age and yearn for yesteryear - when SE Asia was a bastion of good manners in public, friendly customer service, filled with neatly dressed, cute, quiet and well-behaved school children who used to give up their seats on public transport for anyone older than them.

[GrahamF]

Some interesting comments here. I have to agree with eek when talking about some single males being looked at as sexpats, many times when I am alone I get the touts and cab drivers trying to get me to go somewhere and it does get annoying. Redfish, I see your point that women may have an easier time with the locals but maybe not so with the bureaucrats.

As far as rude teenagers, they seem to be everywhere in the world these days!

Suzi, I think maybe after reading some of the comments, other than bonzor's (read ahole), you might be able to get some perspective. You may want to try a different part of Thailand.

I'm looking forward to reading some more. Thanks for all the info so far!

[Pakeha]

Seriously, every day here I spend part of it enjoying the pleasant things that make it unique, and part of it in disgust by the people who make it vile and nasty.

I admit, I'm in a bad mood right now. But it's not because I woke up that way, it's because of the people who rained on what would have otherwise been a sunny day.

"Maybe I'm too polite..."

Ahh, From the sounds of things I don't think this would be the reason.

Hope your stay gets better

[sbk]

Maybe I live in a different Thailand, maybe I get treated differently because I speak Thai, maybe I get treated differently because I don't walk around with a negative attitude and a chip on my shoulder.

But I rarely if ever get rude or nasty stares by western men when in Bangkok (and rarely here by the now growing population of western men moving onto the island). I smile and am friendly and get the same in return, from both western and Thai men and women. In fact, some of my closest friends are western men who live in Thailand. (**edit, except for one grumpy old farang guy in the Tesco Lotus in town, but I still smiled at him, maybe it will make him feel like a jerk for being rude and grumpy )

The line cutting thing has been the norm of bad behavior as long as I have lived in Asia, the Chinese make the Thais look like rank amateurs in comparison. Learn how to say, in Thai, "there is a queue, and its behind me" and you will find that it generally works most of the time. And yes, it is almost always younger Thai women (even the Thai women complain to me about it).

Taxis are a universal problem for everybody, not just women. If you can't get one to turn on the meter, then get another one, I sincerely doubt it has anything to do with being a western woman and more to do with just being a foreigner in general. I had a taxi at the airport that wanted to charge off the meter and I told him to turn it on, in Thai. More than once. He did finally, when he realized I wasn't going to relent. But then he drove like a madman down the expressway so perhaps I should have just paid off the meter. If I'd wanted a rollercoaster ride i would have gone to the amusement park.

As for rude service clerks, I get those sometimes too, everyone does, but I always smile and say thank you and then the next time I see them I usually get good service. If I don't, it hasn't hurt me any and not walking around pissed off about rude service has done wonders for my blood pressure.

Try lightening up a little, try seeing the positive side of things (because, as redfish has pointed out, those are ample) instead of the negative and you may just find that you are enjoying yourself more.

A smile works wonders anywhere you go.

[Ave]

"You know are in Thailand when some Western men look at you with contempt, purely because you are a white Western female (sorry, but thats true). (But, at the same time, i know some really lovely Western men who are real gentlemen..and have had some nice simple interactions, such as men holding open a door for me. Always return the gesture with a smile and a thank you. )." Quote from Eeek in another thread

During my trips to Thailand when I have seen white women, I have never thought of them with contempt, what I have wondered though is life "tougher" for them than a white guys. How are they treated by the Thais? How are they treated by other ex-pats? What unique things does an ex-pat lady face here?

I really hope that no one know one finds this question offensive, I have always been curious. My gut tells me that the ladies would probably face more challenges in Thailand than men, call me a chauvanist if you will, and I think highly of them.

My experience in Thailand has been a real mix. I had good days and bad ones too. I have learnt from both. But I don't remember receiving bad vibes from western men at all. On the contrary, I 've given and received support from them in different circumstances. I now have several male farang friends who lead their own happy and sometimes less happy lives with a Thai partner, just like me.

I can say the same as others in regards to being ripped off and so on. The places where people are less polite are usually the big cities and areas with a high concentration of farang. That happens in other places too: Costa del Sol, Rome, Istanbul, London...! It's just the code of behaviour that changes. The rip off is always there.

I've had to come to terms with the fact that the impact of what happens to me depends on how prepared I am to face challenges, the way I perceive other people's choices and how easily I adapt to new environments. Of course by going to live in Pattaya I immediately thought that I wouldn't be treated as nicely as I was in Nongkhai or Chiang Mai for example. All these farang men will find me like an intruder spying on them or something.

I had to assume that it was going to be a real challenge so that I would be prepared and not get hurt easily. I have been living in a male western-female isarn dominated city for almost three years now, and though I'd rather live somewhere cleaner and quieter I don't mind it at all. I have to say that because of my indifference or rather tolerance and understanding towards other farang 's reasons for being in the same place as me has made me less of a threat or a target. By being casually friendly, after cracking a few jokes with their ladies, relating to each other and dropping our preconceptions becomes an easy thing to do.

It's quite natural to see the look of contempt usually coming from newbies in particular areas of Thailand, a bit like me the first time I went to Pattaya . It is fascinating to observe how similar our initial reactions to unfamiliar situations can be when they involve people from our continent doing their own things in a different part of the world..

[SiamSuzi]

Wow, I totally logged on today to try to see if I could erase my last post because I felt that I had written while upset from having had a bad day (I'd also, though I didn't mention it at the time, had just come close to losing my life from a car running a stop light and coming within inches of smearing my brain all over the pavement). I really thought I'd be logging on today to find responses full of people flaming me for my frank comments. I was quite suprised to see that others have had similar experiences as I was beginning to wonder if I was just imagining things. In any case, I do want to follow up and say that having had a night's rest, I do feel better and hopefully today will be more positive. It's true that there are a lot of very nice things about this country and I hope to find ways to focus on those and let the negative things roll off my shoulder like water. Thank you everyone for not responding harshly with me. It truly has touched me just to know that I'm not alone in my struggles. I wish everyone a beautiful day today.

[eek]

It can be very good to vent off steam!

Again, just wish to say, if you are in Bangkok and not enjoying it, maybe take a look around at other places in Thailand.

Have a lovely day too SiamSuzi.

[Patsycat]

An oflatta reading - but true

[Goinghomesoon]

I find the 'tude' often comes from men on holidays, rather than guys that live here. I come in contact everyday with both expat foreigners and tourists. By and large any negative comments I hear are from tourists, the ones who only see what a great place this is for guys looking for a 'certain type of holiday'. The worst service I have ever had from Thais have been in places with lots of tourists, like Phuket. I must make it to SBK's neck of the woods one day to see what it's like there!

[sbk]

rapidly turning into everywhere else ghs.

the local community is still strong but I wonder for how long.

[patklang]

sorry to here you have had a bad day suzie.My assumptions are you lived in Bangkok,not very friendly.

Maybe thats how foreign tourists feel about London as its the same shit hole as Bangkok.

[neverdie]

I always say, "Women, you can't live with them, you can't live with them".

Colour or creed has nothing to do with it.

Edited March 8, 2009 by neverdie

[Pakeha]

When I'm in BKK and it's getting the better of me I shoot to Kanchanaburi for a couple of nights and all the madness fades away. So close too.

Edit: did you edit my last post sbk? I know you hate the full quotes oops..

Edited March 8, 2009 by byoung2

[kat]

Wow, I totally logged on today to try to see if I could erase my last post because I felt that I had written while upset from having had a bad day (I'd also, though I didn't mention it at the time, had just come close to losing my life from a car running a stop light and coming within inches of smearing my brain all over the pavement). I really thought I'd be logging on today to find responses full of people flaming me for my frank comments. I was quite suprised to see that others have had similar experiences as I was beginning to wonder if I was just imagining things. In any case, I do want to follow up and say that having had a night's rest, I do feel better and hopefully today will be more positive. It's true that there are a lot of very nice things about this country and I hope to find ways to focus on those and let the negative things roll off my shoulder like water. Thank you everyone for not responding harshly with me. It truly has touched me just to know that I'm not alone in my struggles. I wish everyone a beautiful day today.

Hey SiamSuzi

I lived in Bangkok for 4 years, and your comments were not off the mark. Of course, there are positives, like anywhere else, just as there are negatives, but some of the negatives of LOS are really hard to stomach on a continual basis. It is only natural that you would want to go somewhere and vent. When you post honest comments, you help others who may have had similar experiences but don't feel comforatable enough to post.

Thanks for you post. The only thing I want to add is that there are some really sweet vendors and counterpeople and waitresses in Bangkok, but you have to be a regular. Find those places and spend your money with them.

[F1fanatic]

I must be oblivious to all the contemptuous looks from Western men - they're obviously going 'whoosh' over my head!

ALL of the Western men I've met (in a social situation) have been v friendly and happy to chat with a woman from their own culture.

I've also found the Thais v friendly (why would they have a problem with a Western woman??) and often home in on me to start a conversation. For the cynics out there, I'm not talking about only when they think they can make money out of me - I've noticed that when I'm walking my dogs on the beach early in the morning if I meet a Thai, they nearly always say 'hello (or sawadi) and more often than not start a conversation.

SBK is absolutely right about a smile being met with another smile, and (unlike Westerners at home), the thai's don't think you're mad, they appreciate it and love to talk to you!

[Groongthep]

Wow, I totally logged on today to try to see if I could erase my last post because I felt that I had written while upset from having had a bad day (I'd also, though I didn't mention it at the time, had just come close to losing my life from a car running a stop light and coming within inches of smearing my brain all over the pavement). I really thought I'd be logging on today to find responses full of people flaming me for my frank comments. I was quite suprised to see that others have had similar experiences as I was beginning to wonder if I was just imagining things. In any case, I do want to follow up and say that having had a night's rest, I do feel better and hopefully today will be more positive. It's true that there are a lot of very nice things about this country and I hope to find ways to focus on those and let the negative things roll off my shoulder like water. Thank you everyone for not responding harshly with me. It truly has touched me just to know that I'm not alone in my struggles. I wish everyone a beautiful day today.

Glad to see you're in a better mood now Suzi. Most of the things you described in your OP don't just happen to women. I too have days when I suffer from Thailand burn-out and I have been coming here for over 20 years. Normally I'm over it in a day. Overall, I always come back to the realization that the good things here outweigh the bad. Hope you have a good day today.

Edited March 8, 2009 by Groongthep

[Nampeung]

[GrahamF]

Great post, NOT.

[patklang]

The place needs more farang women,as you brighten the place up.I love going shopping at Carefore and seeing many farang women there,and always wonder what work they do or have they got farang/thai bf/husbands.Maybe i should ask???

Some very attractive women too,and even my gf says wow she sexy lady lol

[canincm]

Apart from the stares, what kind of rude comments do you get, specifically? I mean, I *do* get the odd "Learn how to drive!!!", but generally...

[girlx]

i agree with those who say it might just be that you are in BKK... BKK is ok as a newbie tourist but i absolutely hate it for living in- things are much more laid back and less pretentious etc. in other areas of thailand. that said, there are ok places in BKK too... believe it or not i find the most interesting and friendly people (both Thai and foreign) tend to be in the Banglamphu area. go sit at Ricky's coffeeshop on Phra Athit Rd., or have a drink in the evening at Adhere the 13th (blues bar) around Samsen soi 3 or thereabouts. my favorite unpretentious place to dance is DDM club, near Sanam Luang (just off Phra Athit)... and the Thamassat university area (Ta Prajan) is nice for food and hanging around meeting students. get away from Sukhumwit and the touristy areas like Siam and things get better.

Edited March 9, 2009 by girlx