Lost The Faith

[OriginalPoster]

To be accurate I get excatly the salary I ask for tax free.

If the company said I have to pay tax on what I ask for I wouldn't be working for them, what they do about tax is their problem, NI also is not deducted from my salary.

And if you had asked them to quote your salary offer as a gross salary instead of as a net salary, they would have offered a higher dollar amount. Same Same.

Yes, but if I was quoted a salary for say Australia of $100,000, I know I'd be paying around $40,000, or whatever the rate there is now, in tax, leaving me with $60,000. If I'm quoted a salary of $100,000 for an expat position, I can be reasonably confident that I'd get the whole lot, plus goods and services, housing, schooling, car and driver etc. You'd need to be quoted a salary of over $200,000 in Australia to be making what you'd earn in Thailand on a $100,000 one.

All that means is that you are/were able to get a higher paying job outside of Australia than inside Australia. It isn't a reduction of the taxman's cut that it making you richer, it's that your company is paying out more.

Edited March 11, 2009 by OriginalPoster

[PattayaParent]

To be accurate I get excatly the salary I ask for tax free.

If the company said I have to pay tax on what I ask for I wouldn't be working for them, what they do about tax is their problem, NI also is not deducted from my salary.

And if you had asked them to quote your salary offer as a gross salary instead of as a net salary, they would have offered a higher dollar amount. Same Same.

Yes, but if I was quoted a salary for say Australia of $100,000, I know I'd be paying around $40,000, or whatever the rate there is now, in tax, leaving me with $60,000. If I'm quoted a salary of $100,000 for an expat position, I can be reasonably confident that I'd get the whole lot, plus goods and services, housing, schooling, car and driver etc. You'd need to be quoted a salary of over $200,000 in Australia to be making what you'd earn in Thailand on a $100,000 one.

Exactly Ballpoint.

I think some people are deluding themselves into thinking that they are getting a greater salary than they are when in fact it is getting reduced by taxes and NI payments.

If that massages their egos then good for them. They could also add on the costs for visas, airtickets, medical to their salary and say that's what their 'gross' is.

I prefer to deal in the reality of what goes into my pocket at the end of the month. I don't negotiate a salary inclusive of tax, NI etc. I negotiate a tax free salary.

[OriginalPoster]

To be accurate I get excatly the salary I ask for tax free.

If the company said I have to pay tax on what I ask for I wouldn't be working for them, what they do about tax is their problem, NI also is not deducted from my salary.

And if you had asked them to quote your salary offer as a gross salary instead of as a net salary, they would have offered a higher dollar amount. Same Same.

Yes, but if I was quoted a salary for say Australia of $100,000, I know I'd be paying around $40,000, or whatever the rate there is now, in tax, leaving me with $60,000. If I'm quoted a salary of $100,000 for an expat position, I can be reasonably confident that I'd get the whole lot, plus goods and services, housing, schooling, car and driver etc. You'd need to be quoted a salary of over $200,000 in Australia to be making what you'd earn in Thailand on a $100,000 one.

Exactly Ballpoint.

I think some people are deluding themselves into thinking that they are getting a greater salary than they are when in fact it is getting reduced by taxes and NI payments.

If that massages their egos then good for them. They could also add on the costs for visas, airtickets, medical to their salary and say that's what their 'gross' is.

I prefer to deal in the reality of what goes into my pocket at the end of the month. I don't negotiate a salary inclusive of tax, NI etc. I negotiate a tax free salary.

Expat assignments with all the perks are nice, there's no question about that. They don't, in general, reduce the amount of money that the taxman gets though. Advising someone to get a job like that instead of complaining about taxes might not be bad advice, but no better than advising them to get a job that pays more money instead of complaining about taxes.

Edited March 11, 2009 by OriginalPoster

[Westerner]

You must put your 10 year old daughter first. You will take her away from her family and friends and put her in a school here where she will receive a 2nd rate education with no prospects at the end of it.

[Pakeha]

One presumes the OP's ten year old daughter benefits from a state education while he and she enjoy the security of knowing they can rely on health care, social services, welfare, police, fire and ambulance services and all the other benefits that he grumbles over paying for.

Worst comes to worst and the OP winds up unable to support himself and his daugther in Thailand and he gets back on the plane, goes home and puts his hand out...... Yeh I get it...... He's lost the faith.

My daughter does currently attend state education, although the 'voluntary donations' I get billed for are interesting.

Health care - I pay for private health care for my family whilst my tax pays for healthcare for the masses.

Social services and welfare - yes I pay taxes and other people utilise these services. No benefit for me. I pay my own superanuation.

Police - If I didn't pay taxes for the police to arrest the criminals that I am supporting through welfare I could afford my own body guard. Happy to pay for police nonetheless.

Fire - More than happy to pay taxes for this.

Ambulance - again my private insurance covers this whilst I pay taxes for people on the welfare to get this service free.

You have misunderstood my point Guesthouse. I don't have a problem paying for these services and do not grumble about paying for them. I have a problem paying for these services for other people who are sitting around drinking, smoking pot and breaking into cars and houses all day whilst I am working to support them.

I wouldn't put myself in a situation where I was unable to support myself.

Thailand is largely a user pays system. That makes sense to me.

[kiakaha]

To be accurate I get excatly the salary I ask for tax free.

If the company said I have to pay tax on what I ask for I wouldn't be working for them, what they do about tax is their problem, NI also is not deducted from my salary.

so when you do your immigration permit of stay extensions on the basis of work (your problem) , you should see the actual gross amount that your PIT(personal income tax) is paid on to arrive at your net amount received (the "tax free salary" in your universe).

unless you are working illegally in thailand without a Work permit and Tax Number....have I just called your bluff ?

[Pakeha]

You must put your 10 year old daughter first. You will take her away from her family and friends and put her in a school here where she will receive a 2nd rate education with no prospects at the end of it.

Interesting. My daughter spent the first 6 years of her life in Thailand and the last 4 here. She has more family in Thailand than in NZ.

You are right about the education being a concern for me. I would want to be in a position where she could attend a good private school in Thailand. I wouldn't want her going to a state school. But I think she would get a fine education at a good private school.

[Pakeha]

Can you really do that in NZ? Hypothetically, let's suppose I'm from NZ, drop out of college, am 22 ys old, able bodied, and wanted to do nothing except sit around and complain about the injustice of society and the conformity of my elders. How much money will the State pay me to do that?

Yes you can.

I just made one of my staff redundant and through my network found another job for her. She turned it down in favour of doing fark all. She also informed me rather than getting the unemployment benefit she was going to get the sickness benefit because it pays more. I think she'll get around $280 per week plus accomodation allowance, plus all her medical covered... So in effect I am still paying her!

[Pakeha]

My wife and I(both kiwis) moved from NZL to LOS ~ 14 years ago for work , rented out our house in NZL at the time etc....

Hi Kia Kaha. Did you secure your job prior to relocating to Thailand or did you just make the move and then secure it? I know things are quite different now to how they were 14 years ago. I'm not sure how employable I would be in Thailand... unless I became an english teacher which (no offense to anyone) doesn't really appeal to me. Also, I think it would fall into a different pay bracket to what I would expect.

In NZ and other western countries I am quite employable. Retirement is not an option

[MiG16]

bah hambug! I should move to NZ then

for the record - I personally believe in less taxes, and smaller government. governments need to move away from the creating this false idealogy that public goods can only be provided by the state. a much more effective way would be to consider private provision of the services (but in many instances still using public funds)

to the OP - if you do decide to move, good luck. you might want to ask more specific questions in the visa section, the jobs and economy section - to explore prospects and discuss ideas for what you might be able to do, and perhaps the family and children one - to find out about schooling and activities for your daughter?

[kiakaha]

ironically, NZL's government just changed from left-wing socialists to centre-right capitalists

[Maigo6]

If you don't like freeloaders, I would suggest you NOT settle in the LOS.

Did you settle in Thailand ?

Does that then mean you like freeloaders ?

[lannarebirth]

Ok wise ones. I've lost the faith. After years of making dam good money I'm thinking I was wrong. I've always been a bit of a socialist happy to give some of my good fortune to the not so fortunate. But now I've had a guts full! Should I rent the property and settle in los? I have a 10 year old daughter which is my priority of course.

Sounds like you are spewing what we call here in the US "Trump" logic. This is the logic a certain Mr. Trump, a man of considerable wealth, who claims that if he can only keep $10 million in net profit out of a $20 million in gross profits that he would rather retire from investing and work and become a greeter at Walmart for minimum wage. This is of course entirely false logic, and Mr. Trump has no intentions of changing his behavior and that he is quite cognizant that is lifestyle will be little changed from the proposed increase in his taxes, although I am sure that he is upset that some of the redistributed money will go to people of color, the number one reason white people hate welfare. But it is a bit silly for people further down the ladder to jump on Trump's bandwagon. Sort of like having to listen to some taxi driver bemoaning the estate tax. Hey look, if you have made enough money to retire than go for it. I would if I could, but don't do it for Trump's false logic.

I thought "Trump Logic" was to assemble as many gullible investors as you can, renege on your obligations to them, and retain as much of the money for yourself as you can. Repeat as necessary.

[Pakeha]

bah hambug! I should move to NZ then

It's a pretty miserable existence on that income in NZ but plenty of people seem happy to do that rather than work for a living!

Can you imagine if the average unemployed thai got that

[bertlamar]

bah hambug! I should move to NZ then

It's a pretty miserable existence on that income in NZ but plenty of people seem happy to do that rather than work for a living!

Can you imagine if the average unemployed thai got that

Actualy, a fair few work doing some basic under the table job, and thus can earn say $280 from the government, and another $100-$200 in cash jobs; not too bad and you get to work maybe 10-15 hours a week and watch Bro Town the rest of the time.

NZ taxes are out of control relative to the service that a high tax payer ends up receiving; it is user pays at the top end; education system isn't cheap unless you can get into a good state school and even then not that cheap; uni is costly.....

But there are plenty of great things about NZ. Just working there is not really one of them. That's why most Kiwis do an OE (overseas experience, work permit/visa to work in the UK is the most popular, USA/Canada/Aussie all sort of quite popular as well) and many don't return; those that do return often do so after they've made enough cash to cane their student loan and buy an overpriced villa in Herne Bay.

[Pakeha]

Actualy, a fair few work doing some basic under the table job, and thus can earn say $280 from the government, and another $100-$200 in cash jobs; not too bad and you get to work maybe 10-15 hours a week and watch Bro Town the rest of the time.

They're called criminals... Not only do they suck up our taxes but they don't even pay tax on their cash jobs.

Back to Thailand though. How many members moved to LOS when they were still closer to birth than death? Let's say under 40?

[ballpoint]

To be accurate I get excatly the salary I ask for tax free.

If the company said I have to pay tax on what I ask for I wouldn't be working for them, what they do about tax is their problem, NI also is not deducted from my salary.

so when you do your immigration permit of stay extensions on the basis of work (your problem) , you should see the actual gross amount that your PIT(personal income tax) is paid on to arrive at your net amount received (the "tax free salary" in your universe).

unless you are working illegally in thailand without a Work permit and Tax Number....have I just called your bluff ?

I see your point that it's all a question of semantics as to net or gross, but you will find very few companies in the west that will give you a pay rise to get your take home pay up to what was quoted as your salary, in effect, paying your tax for you, as is common in expat positions. After all, I really couldn't care how much my company were paying to the government, as long as I was getting the stated salary in my hand. Of course, you could then argue that if you're that valuable to your company you could be getting the net amount in the hand, but we want to keep it legal, or at least as legal as we can get away with. In that way I disagree with the OP, in that it doesn't matter to me that some of the money is being used to support bludgers, it probably would though if I were in NZ or Australia. Never mind, I can still splash them as I drive by in my SUV. In any case, here in Thailand, your taxes go towards a far more nefarious purpose, that of supporting corrupt politicians and their cronies, few of who actually pay their full taxes, if any.

I know the question wasn't asked to me, but when I was working here with a work permit, the permit of stay extensions weren't my problem too. I handed my passport in to our HR rep every year and got it back with a new one year multi entry visa. Working as a specialist in the oil industry meant that my work permit came under the DMF, with a different procedure from standard. I do know that it was costing my company more than twice as much as they were actually paying me in order to have me working here. They obviously thought it worth while, and I thought what I was getting was fair pay. I'm now semi retired, living up country, with occasional trips around SE Asia for consulting work. I no longer do any work in Thailand. No work permit any more, but still totally legal.

Edited to add: I came here in my early twenties, now in early fourties.

Edited March 11, 2009 by ballpoint

[Groongthep]

I am sure that he is upset that some of the redistributed money will go to people of color, the number one reason white people hate welfare.

Complete nonsense. Speaking for yourself perhaps.

QUOTE (byoung2 @ 2009-03-10 14:02:52)

It's the lazy young starving artists I'm sick of supporting.

You are not supporting lazy young starving artists. "Welfare" or Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF) as the program is officially called in the US requires that one have dependent children under 18 to qualify. Adults who do not support children get nothing.

[kiakaha]

Actualy, a fair few work doing some basic under the table job, and thus can earn say $280 from the government, and another $100-$200 in cash jobs; not too bad and you get to work maybe 10-15 hours a week and watch Bro Town the rest of the time.

They're called criminals... Not only do they suck up our taxes but they don't even pay tax on their cash jobs.

Back to Thailand though. How many members moved to LOS when they were still closer to birth than death? Let's say under 40?

wife and I were in our early thirties/late twentys when we moved from NZL to Thailand.

[dbrenn]

If the taxes are the problem there is a solution. Overseas expat job paying the same or more likely bit more and tax free with accommodation allowance etc etc. Plenty left for the villagers.

Tax free...really....talking from experience ?

sorry to knock you off your barstool, but.....

If you work in thailand it is a felony not to pay tax. I've been in an "expat" position for more than a decade...you have to pay PIT(personal income tax) to the revenue department. You also need your tax return records for your 1 yearly permit of stay extension.

Salary splitting is sometimes done.But, tax is still paid on the thai amount of the salary.

Too true - personal income tax in Thailand is mandatory just as it s in the western world, and if you are on a decent salary the tax rates are on a par with the west.

The OP complains about his tax money going to bludgers? Some of it does, but some is left to educate his daughter as another poster has said, as well as to provide a healthcare and social security safety net should the OP ever need one.

If he moves to Thailand, the OP needn't worry about his taxes going to bludgers, after all there are no social services worth speaking of. The OP can take solace in the knowledge that his Thai tax money goes to all those hard working politicians that drive around in luxury cars, and on all the pork barrel projects that line the pockets of those in the know

[Pakeha]

I am sure that he is upset that some of the redistributed money will go to people of color, the number one reason white people hate welfare.

Complete nonsense. Speaking for yourself perhaps.

QUOTE (byoung2 @ 2009-03-10 14:02:52)

It's the lazy young starving artists I'm sick of supporting.

You are not supporting lazy young starving artists. "Welfare" or Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF) as the program is officially called in the US requires that one have dependent children under 18 to qualify. Adults who do not support children get nothing.

The US system has nothing to do with the NZ system. I don't know where you are coming from to make this irrelevant statement.

In Nz if you are unemployed you get welfare. Full stop. You have to meet some conditions but it is available to everyone.

[PattayaParent]

To be accurate I get excatly the salary I ask for tax free.

If the company said I have to pay tax on what I ask for I wouldn't be working for them, what they do about tax is their problem, NI also is not deducted from my salary.

so when you do your immigration permit of stay extensions on the basis of work (your problem) , you should see the actual gross amount that your PIT(personal income tax) is paid on to arrive at your net amount received (the "tax free salary" in your universe).

unless you are working illegally in thailand without a Work permit and Tax Number....have I just called your bluff ?

I don't see any of that stuff, the company handle all the immigration extensions.

After all, why would they employ me to do my job, and then have me do their job for them?

Edited March 11, 2009 by PattayaParent

[flying]

wife and I were in our early thirties/late twentys when we moved from NZL to Thailand.

WOW Congrats on that I wish I were that lucky. May I ask how old or roughly how long you have been here now?

To the OP good luck & it sounds like your mind is pretty well made up.

What you said about your daughter having more family in TL & having already spent half her life in TL makes it sound pretty smooth for her.

I would not worry too much myself about educational concerns. Having raised 4 children I know for a fact the most important part of that equation is not the school.

[OriginalPoster]

To be accurate I get excatly the salary I ask for tax free.

If the company said I have to pay tax on what I ask for I wouldn't be working for them, what they do about tax is their problem, NI also is not deducted from my salary.

so when you do your immigration permit of stay extensions on the basis of work (your problem) , you should see the actual gross amount that your PIT(personal income tax) is paid on to arrive at your net amount received (the "tax free salary" in your universe).

unless you are working illegally in thailand without a Work permit and Tax Number....have I just called your bluff ?

I don't see any of that stuff, the company handle all the immigration extensions.

After all, why would they employ me to do my job, and then have me do their job for them?

For someone who makes so much money, you sure have a hard time grasping simple concepts.

[PattayaParent]

[

I don't see any of that stuff, the company handle all the immigration extensions.

After all, why would they employ me to do my job, and then have me do their job for them?

For someone who makes so much money, you sure have a hard time grasping simple concepts.

Who says I make so much money???

All I've said is that my salary is tax free, as in the simple concept of what it states in my contract is what I get in my pocket, the company takes care of all taxes, NI and immigration extensions.

Is that simple enough for you to understand?

Edit: too many nested quotes

Edited March 11, 2009 by PattayaParent

[Pakeha]

I don't see any of that stuff, the company handle all the immigration extensions.

After all, why would they employ me to do my job, and then have me do their job for them?

For someone who makes so much money, you sure have a hard time grasping simple concepts.

[PattayaParent]

<snip>

After all, I really couldn't care how much my company were paying to the government, as long as I was getting the stated salary in my hand. Of course, you could then argue that if you're that valuable to your company you could be getting the net (I assume you mean gross) amount in the hand,

I know the question wasn't asked to me, but when I was working here with a work permit, the permit of stay extensions weren't my problem too. I handed my passport in to our HR rep every year and got it back with a new one year multi entry visa.

Spot on once again Ballpoint.

I sometimes wonder what sort of companies people work for if they have to do their own EOS, WP, taxes, NI etc., or why they would work for such companies?

[OriginalPoster]

<snip>

After all, I really couldn't care how much my company were paying to the government, as long as I was getting the stated salary in my hand. Of course, you could then argue that if you're that valuable to your company you could be getting the net (I assume you mean gross) amount in the hand,

I know the question wasn't asked to me, but when I was working here with a work permit, the permit of stay extensions weren't my problem too. I handed my passport in to our HR rep every year and got it back with a new one year multi entry visa.

Spot on once again Ballpoint.

I sometimes wonder what sort of companies people work for if they have to do their own EOS, WP, taxes, NI etc., or why they would work for such companies?

All that's nice but it doesn't mean that none of your money goes to deadbeats back in your home country.

[OriginalPoster]

[

I don't see any of that stuff, the company handle all the immigration extensions.

After all, why would they employ me to do my job, and then have me do their job for them?

For someone who makes so much money, you sure have a hard time grasping simple concepts.

Who says I make so much money???

All I've said is that my salary is tax free, as in the simple concept of what it states in my contract is what I get in my pocket, the company takes care of all taxes, NI and immigration extensions.

Is that simple enough for you to understand?

Edit: too many nested quotes

Give me a break, the whole purpose of you posting this shit here can only be to let us know what a sweet deal you have as it clearly has nothing to do with telling us how to avoid taxation.

Edited March 11, 2009 by OriginalPoster

[MJo]

[

I don't see any of that stuff, the company handle all the immigration extensions.

After all, why would they employ me to do my job, and then have me do their job for them?

For someone who makes so much money, you sure have a hard time grasping simple concepts.

Who says I make so much money???

All I've said is that my salary is tax free, as in the simple concept of what it states in my contract is what I get in my pocket, the company takes care of all taxes, NI and immigration extensions.

Is that simple enough for you to understand?

Edit: too many nested quotes

Give me a break, the whole purpose of you posting this shit here can only be to let us know what a sweet deal you have as it clearly has nothing to do with telling us how to avoid taxation.

C'mon guys, simple issue of how you define "tax free". My salary is by contract "tax free" and company takes care of local taxes depending on country where i work. I do understand that there is income tax on my "thai salary" but it has nothing to do with me as i get the same in my hand regardless of the country i happen to work.

Back in my home country everything is really 100% tax free so that sorts out the problem of supporting others there. This was my point when referring "tax free" expat job. I mean all money is received in home country in hard currency and company declares the minimum salary required for extensions and pays minimal tax on that to Thai government. Much less than the "real" tax amount i would pay back home. Overall tax man loses and everyone happy

Not that many years ago there was loads of "consultants" working without WP's making 500US per day, those guys were the real tax free people until MNC's cut it off. And how about all those "i work over internet outside thailand" guys, i do not believe they pay tax ? Illegal i know...