They told me exactly what they think!

[KenUdon]

I was asked to give a talk on "Being a Farang in Thailand" by my daughters school. I told them also that there were likely to be less long stay farangs in Thailand in the future due to the recent new regulations. They didn't comment much until I asked them at the end what did THEY think of farangs in Thailand.

The overall response was that there were far too many farangs in Thailand now, and they would be better off without them. One even went so far as to say that "we don't want farangs here" (Think that must have been a relative of Toxins)

If this is the future generations thinking........mmmm???

[pnustedt]

Very interesting. Just wondered - is the school in a village or a sizeable town?

Were you surprised by the response?

[singa-traz]

Did you ask "Why" ?

And how old are they ?

[kwiz117]

My personal opinions deleted by myself..

enjoy thailand

 

[KenUdon]

The school is in a large Provincial city. The "audience seemed have been gathered from several different schools in the district and the ages were from 14-18. The school I spoke at was a large (1200pupils) mixed modern school in the city.

Yes I am somewhat surprised at the response, although the young people can not fail to be influenced by the general anti farang sentiment of the Govt now. The "debate was cut short at question time, as I think the staff sensed an embarrasing situation for me.

[kwiz117]

deleted by myself..

[pnustedt]

When I first went to my wife's village in Isaan there were quite a few negative reactions, such as "why have you bought him here - they're nothing but trouble".

Apparently the only experience they had was with a farang resident married to a local girl a few years earlier - I am told that he was aggressive and violent.

It is disconcerting, but the bad behaviour of a few bad apples has such a negative effect on the opinion of Thais about farangs in general.

[singa-traz]

I'm surprised they actually responded to your questions, as well as in the way they responde ... usually, when questions are asked in group, at least of adult, I get no or a more "kriang djai" response.

Kids education is no longer what is used to be ...

[plachon]

Interesting post Ken and to tell the truth, it doesn't surprise me a great deal. I have lived in Thailand for some 7 years, but over a period of 12, and have witnessed a gradual sea-change in the attitude of ordinary Thais towards foreigners in general and farang in particular. I put it down to a wide variety of factors, but amongst the young, I'd say it is a combination of a nagging feeling that the world is not a fair place and run by the West (reinforced by globalisation), and also the point already alluded to that experiences with meeting farang (often at a distance) in their home villages has not been altogether a positive image. (We've all seen the beer swilling farang with the b/g at Songkhran and other festivals breaking all the local taboos, and it's these images that stick in the mind for most). Furthermore, the local press and media often reinforce the negative, (not helped by toxin's recent outbursts!)

One other mitigating factor, assuming you live in Udon, is it's history as a US military base and the aftertaste of the Ugly American syndrome, which can often be seen in such tangible sights, as abandoned luk kreung who only recently gained any rights and recognition in Thai society. However, I agree the trend is not good and it's up to long termers (assuming we're allowed to stay?) to create a positive image. Learning fluent Thai is the best start!

[taxexile]

spot on,plachon.

i have spent 5 out of the past ten years here and have noticed the same change in attitudes towards the west.

my wifes family are chinese thai,middle class and they  can all express themselves well in english. attitudes to westerners and what our culture represents to the thais features heavily in our conversations.the thais felt a lot of resentment and a loss of independence at the time of the baht crash in 97 or 98.

the taking over of the thai economy by the imf was a great loss of face for the country,seeing as the thais perceived the currency crash to have been brought about by foriegn speculation,their own role in the crash seems to have been downplayed somewhat.four of the family work for western multinational companies and complain incessantly that the foriegn managers have little or no understanding of thai workplace etiquette and ride roughshod over the thais,both in terms of pay and in terms of imposing rules from the head office back in the west.this being especially true of the american companies,in fact the americans come in for most of the criticism,their attitudes to smaller countries and their demands to do business their way stokes up an awful lot of bad feeling.they certainly do not play fair.what surprised me most though was the reaction to september 11th.many many thais i met were overjoyed by it,not by the triumph of islamic terrorism,but by the humiliation of america. they deserved it,they have had it coming to them,it was long overdue were the most common comments.since the currency crash here the thais feel that they have been colonised by western business and culture and there is a whole generation growing up thinking like this.some of the feeling may derive from a natural "envy" of western wealth, but i feel that some of it comes from anger,anger that if they had had the right leadership for the past 20 or 30 years then thailand would be more of a force to be reckoned with by the west,that useless government has kept them back.in shinawatr they see a powerful successful figure who can bring thailand forward and bring some pride back.if he cracks a few heads on the way,well so what.on a personal level they take us as they find us but on a larger cultural level they dont like it and they see it as being colonised by a foriegn culture.the government may play on this to gain political advantage.i think the thais feel that their culture is being diluted and they cant do anything about it.but its happening all over the world. we are all becoming american and its impossible to hold back the tide.

have a nice day y'all.

[KenUdon]

plachon and taxexile:-

Two very very good posts there. A lot of truth to what you both say I suspect. It was quite fascinating to hear the many voices that spoke of "The IMF" I was totally unprepared for such young people to know anything about this, bearing in mind that some of them must have almost been in nappies then :0

This was one area where I did try to expand the converstaion as it has been so recently in the news, but it did seem that there was no reasoning on that particular point. The IMF was to blame for all of Thailands ills, and the crisis was only due to outside influences out of Thailands control. In fact Toxin appeared to be held in great esteem, because he had managed to rid Thailand of such an "unfair" burden.

[buasaard]

Another possible reason, is that previous generations were afraid of communism (all around Thailand there were communist countries), and felt West was helping them to remain free. New generations did not have this fear, and they do not see why western countries should have a word on their country.

In addition, there is a sort of "globalisation of racism", the phrases are the same spoken by racists all over the world ("too many of them", "they come to steal our women", "they come to steal our jobs" and so on...).

Then of course , natural envy as taxexile said, makes the rest.

When they see a tourist spending for one night at hotel the equivalent of one month salary, or the luxury houses in the movies they think we are just selfish people that become rich exploiting them.

Apparently the only experience they had was with a farang resident married to a local girl a few years earlier - I am told that he was aggressive and violent.

In small villages it seems that a single farang can make a lot of damages. On the village of horigin of my wife near Lom Sak, instead I was well treated. I was a sort of strange thing for them also because I'm on a wheelchair and they never saw a "4 wheel farang".In this village there is only an old Dutchman (over 80), that seems a good man, so they don't think bad of farangs.

[Rambutan]

Nice thread this. One Thai friend said also something similar about the crash. He put it like it was all made up by the americans, a kind of scam. (People that scam alot could easily think that others  would do the same. Where would this Idea come from otherwise?)

I partly believed it in the beginning, since I was in a kind of "west is evil mood" and was also a bit ashamed for comming from the west, for the sextourism especially. But the picture changes, as you stay on you find out what is going on here. Everybody knows Thai attitudes towards money, and the ability to handle it. I believe the crash was nearly completely triggered by Thailand itself, not by some strange forces outside. But you probably know their ability of admitting mistakes as well...

I do wonder as times if people remeber what was here about 20 years ago? Yes, close to nothing. The industialisation started about 20 or 25 years ago (some oldtimers on this board probably know) with the beginning of foreign investment.More and more overseas companys started to pruduce here, and thus for the first time money flew into the country and technology as well. Roads were build, electricity was distributed, high rise buildings build and so on.

More and more companys invested here, it was a boom and Bangkok was for a period the fastest growing city in the world.

Not many countries have seen such a growt, I guess people could litararly move from the trees into the skyscraper.

So much money in such a short time, no wonder that people get the wrong impressions. Nobody ever thought of that it might stop one day, or at least slow down.

I mean they didn't lose anything really when the crash came. Without the huge investment there would be still nothing here (Maybe better, I sometimes think)

Up to this day all bigger projects are build in coorp. with some big western firm. Stuff like huge bridges and higways or public transport I mean. (Are they not able or don't they want to?)

Does really none of the Thais realise all that?

And is there no hatred of the local aristocracy, the chinese ans thai chinese "rulers" of this place? Why is all the hatred directed towards the farang? Because he looks different???

Do they honestly believe that their "rulers" will pay them a satang more per day if the economy picks up and generates a higher income for their companies?

I think many locals, especialy in the countryside, have no clue whats going on.

[singa-traz]

Everybody knows Thai attitudes towards money, and the ability to handle it. I believe the crash was nearly completely triggered by Thailand itself, not by some strange forces outside. But you probably know their ability of admitting mistakes as well...

The Baht devaluation was triggered by Foreign currency speculators.

Short Version:

---

The Baht was over-valued against the US Dollars, and this created an opportunity for the speculators.

They actively trade Thai Baht, to create a kind of panic mouvement, where everybody would sell Thai Baht for US$ ... such that the BOT would not be able to defend it ... and had to aknowledge the defacto devaluation.

---

The bad shapre of the Thai economy back in 1996/1997 definitly set the condition for such speculation ... but the Foreign players had an active role in triggering the crisis.

Btw, is SOROS still on the PNG list ? ...

Interesting compilation of articles on the topics:

- http://members.tripod.com/thanong/01302001.htm

[mattes]

Good Thread, and perhaps an applicable quote from The Nation this week:

"Thailand has come to a time when sanity no longer counts as an admirable quality.

Sopon Onkgara

The Nation "

[pantarei]

taxexile Posted on Sep. 13 2003,15:11

four of the family work for western multinational companies and complain incessantly that the managers have little or no understanding of thai workplace etiquette and ride roughshod over the thais,both in terms of pay and in terms of imposing rules from the head office back in the west.this being especially true of the american companies,in fact the americans come in for most of the criticism,their attitudes to smaller countries and their demands to do business their way stokes up an awful lot of bad feeling.they certainly do not play fair.what surprised me most though was the reaction to september 11th.many many thais i met were overjoyed by it,not by the triumph of islamic terrorism,but by the humiliation of america. they deserved it,they have had it coming to them,it was long overdue were the most common comments.

I have spent most of my career working for multinationals, both American and non-American.  Based on my experience, I am convinced that there is no difference between them.  Their modus operandi is, IMO, defined by the 3B principle: bull----, brown-nosing and back-stabbing.  Multis tend to promote individuals who have a good understanding of the “elbow etiquette” and are competent at running roughshod over their “subordinates” while svxking off their “superiors”.  As usual, there are exceptions to the norm.  

Are American multinationals the only ones that do not play fair?  Gimme a break.  At least American multis, unlike others, are forced to comply with American anti-bribery laws (do not remember the legal term).

I have Thai friends both in LOS and USA.  Two of my Thai friends work for American multis in BKK.  They have no complaints.  Both like their jobs and one of them talks about his company in superlatives.  He certainly is not trying to please me – I quit the very same company in disgust.  My points: (i) American multis are not better or worse than their foreign counterparts; (ii) multi managers’ lack of respect for technical and support personnel is not limited to Thai employees; (iii) not all Thais are treated poorly in American multis.

My Thai friends/acquaintances in the US are mostly well educated (MIT, Brown U., etc.) and could do well in LOS but for some reason chose to live in the land of their supposed oppressors.    

Following 9/11 I received several email messages from my LOS-based Thai friends/acquaintances expressing sympathy rather than joy.  Are the Thais I know two-faced ??  

we are all becoming american and its impossible to hold back the tide.

I am an American.  I do not drink Coca-Cola, Pepsi, etc., and I eat burgers and fries about 3-4 times a YEAR.  Why do so many people all over the world CHOOSE to spend money on crap such as McDonald’s burgers and Dunkin duhnuts, and imbecilic “action movies” made in Hollywood?  There are lots of uncertainties in our lives but one thing is certain - crap will be produced as long as there is sufficient demand for it.

My argument is a quintessential cliché – I have heard it zillions of times before.  What I have not heard is a rational, well-documented explanation of the “Americanization” phenomenon.  I look forward to seeing such an explanation.

BTW, in addition to crap, American contributions to the world include: telephones, air-conditioning, airplanes, computers, the internet, most of the progress in biotech, essential role in defeating nazism and bolshevism, etc., etc., etc.

PS  Are there any reliable, published data on the (1) total number of foreign (farang+non-farang) residents in LOS, (2) total number of farangs residing in LOS, (3) total number of American residents in LOS?  My uneducated guesses – (i) there are a lot more non-American farangs in LOS than Americans, (ii) there are a lot more European than American “sex tourists” in LOS.  

[plachon]

Not many countries have seen such a growt, I guess people could litararly move from the trees into the skyscraper.

Ignoring the spelling mistakes, this is the second such comment on the board in recent days. Please cut it out, or at least examine your own superior assumptions in making it. It is both racist and insulting to Thais, if you consider the meaning, and undermines your own arguments. To suggest that Thais were somehow culturally, or even morally inferior, before Western contact, is bure bigotry and highlights your own ignorance. Is money, wealth and power the only yardstick of "civilization"? and if so, let's all bow down to Uncle Sam now. If you're still not convinced of your folly, then I suggest you go read "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond.

[pantarei]

plachon Posted on Sep. 14 2003,11:59

To suggest that Thais were somehow culturally, or even morally inferior, before Western contact, is bure bigotry and highlights your own ignorance.

yes  

Is money, wealth and power the only yardstick of "civilization"? and if so, let's all bow down to Uncle Sam now.

There are several possible interpretations of this statement.  One of them implies a case of "The Pot calling the kettle black"?  surely, you did not mean that American civilization is based solely on money, wealth and power, did you? 

[enchanted]

I totally agree with plachon's point.

It is precisely this eurocentric view of the rest of the world that moulded the minds of most Thais to be anti-falang. What makes white skin people more superior than Asians? Is it because of their facility for rational thought or because without their "help", Asian economies cannot develop?  Gimme a break!

When I was reading this thread, I laugh to myself why is it that this discussion is shared only between falangs and none of the replies were from non-Falang..it's just like hens clucking about how "inferior" ducks are without any representation from the ducks themselves...

Have you Falangs pause for a while, shut those gaps and clear your mind in silence first, before asking why is it there is an anti-falang sentiment going on in Thailand among so many Thais?

Let me coin the phase "Reputation presides the person". Generalisation of the characteristics of a certain group of people may be fallacious but it always has a very strong ground for the common recurring behaviours to make others believe that they are true...I suggest if you guys are genuinely concerned about all this anti-falang hype happening in Thailand, then you shld just observe the "inappropriate" behaviours of visiting falangs to this country and for once, think like a Thai. Guess you will be able to feel how a Thai feels when you see what a Thai sees.

[Rambutan]

Not many countries have seen such a growt, I guess people could litararly move from the trees into the skyscraper.

Ignoring the spelling mistakes, this is the second such comment on the board in recent days. Please cut it out, or at least examine your own superior assumptions in making it. It is both racist and insulting to Thais, if you consider the meaning, and undermines your own arguments. To suggest that Thais were somehow culturally, or even morally inferior, before Western contact, is bure bigotry and highlights your own ignorance. Is money, wealth and power the only yardstick of "civilization"? and if so, let's all bow down to Uncle Sam now. If you're still not convinced of your folly, then I suggest you go read "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond.

I never suggested that thais are inferior in any way, did I?

But I was aware that some people might want to misunderstand that sentence.

I have genuine respect for humans in general, no matter how much money they have.

I just wanted to show what was going on in TL in the past, and I think what I wrote is simply true. It has nothing to do with racism, it is just true!

Is money, wealth and power the only yardstick of "civilization"?

Of course not, but I firmly believe that this is what the Thai aristocracy believes.

I think the industrialisation and growing "business culture" has heavily shaked Thai society and brought it out of balance.

[taxexile]

can someone tell me how to use the quote feature please

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Enchanted and Plachon

well put by you both. But alas, our one-eyed bretheren can't see the effect that those attitudes have on the Thai people.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Just hit quote....scroll down and edit out what you don't want quoted.

[taxexile]

panterei said

"Are American multinationals the only ones that do not play fair?  Gimme a break"

they are probably not the only ones that are inconsiderate to the host culture but because there are so many more american companies than those of other western countries then they will have to bear the brunt of the criticism,it comes with the territory of being Mr. Big.

and ,yes,i'm sure that there are some companies that fare better than others and forge fine and honourable relationships with their hosts.

panterei also said

"Following 9/11 I received several email messages from my LOS-based Thai friends/acquaintances expressing sympathy rather than joy.  Are the Thais I know two-faced ??"

only you can speak for the Thais that you know but my in-laws and others did not seem two-faced when they expressed sympathy for the victims and families,but said that they saw it as a kind of long overdue come-uppance for the american government, i repeat,government.(in my previous post i used the word "overjoyed", that was an inappropriate word and i apologise).

pantetei also said

.  "What I have not heard is a rational, well-documented explanation of the “Americanization” phenomenon.  I look forward to seeing such an explanation."

i cannot explain it either ,but it would make for a good thread on this forum.the american marketing industry has the enviable quality of being able to flood the world with the biggest junk and convince us all that it is highly desirable produce.they appeal to our dreams,unfortunately reality is very different.a combination of unbridled confidence,a not inconsiderable amount of bullying and some over the top dentistry probably has something to do with this ability.

panterei also claimed,

(ii) there are a lot more European than American “sex tourists” in LOS.

have you been out counting them then?

the americans can i'm sure be found satisfying their baser needs in central america or rio.why should they travel half way around the world to get it when its right on the doorstep ! and they can pay in dollars and chewing gum !

r.i.p. johnny cash.

[Guest IT Manager]

An earlier post, posed the question;

"Is money, wealth and power the only yardstick of "civilization"?"

And provided the answer

"Of course not, but I firmly believe that this is what the Thai aristocracy believes.""

In my humble opinion the view that money wealth and power are the yardsticks to a developing economy/democracy/status is not only held by the so called "aristocracy", but by virtue of trickle down (of Reagan fame), has led it to be a standard by which everything is judged.

This then leads the Thai people to see all foreigners, no matter their real wealth or lack of it to be wealthy, by comparison to western people. (I detest the word farang)..

Thailand is governed by a single wealthy Chinese and his friends. He is ruled by the buck and in fact in the last 12 months, when visiting his old alma mater, as you Americans say, said, he felt like an old Texan or something like that.

In the same visit, he described sharing with his wife a one room apartment, with a blanket to separate the games room from the living room.

This same person was given an honorary doctorate in humanities, in spite of his governments' appalling human rights record in respect not only to Westerners, but to just about anyone, who isn't adding to his coffers.

One doesn't need to work hard to realise that the University is a pay for it style, where results are based on your financial capacity, not your brain power. I have to give credit for his choice of "criminology" for his doctorate, however. Lets face it, it is indeed difficult to fail a subject at which you would likely be an expert to have achieved what you have.

Far be it from me to point out that he was a policeman, who by dint of "hard work" rose to the heady heights of wealth he has achieved, with no one questionning his astounding wealth.

Far be it from me also to point out, that he rode a tide of grassroots support saying he was for the poor, and was voted in by those same "smelly masses" at 300 baht per vote.

When the apologists turn over and say "woe is me", I promise not to stand and say I told you so. You bring the axe down on your own neck. As my son, who isn't Thai said "wake up and smell the flowers". All Thailand wants is your money, your expertise transfer, and you gone. In that order.

Thailand since 1968 has made itself the worlds bedroom, and wonders about "low class people" travelling here, to use the Thai brothels, set up for american use, but normally frequented by wealthy Thais getting off on going second after a foreigner, at half the price.

To quote my son, "dickheads, every one".

[Nam Kao]

Just hit quote....scroll down and edit out what you don't want quoted.

sweet

[taxexile]

not so sweet cos it does'nt work.

please post more detailed instructions for the computer illiterate amongst us !!

[Rambutan]

If you want to use the quote feature which is in the reply form, than you have to 1. copy the text you want and then

                               2. hit the quote button

                               3. now paste the text

                               4. hit the quote button a second time

                               5. done. Now you can go ahead and

                                   write your stuff.

                               

The other features work similarly. The textpiece must be enclosed between those tags.

[TizMe]

It's easier to just click the that you see above the message that you want to quote. Then scroll down and edit out what you don't want quoted.

[Alberta]

Any decent, well brought up, and reasonably educated Thai man or women who had the misfortune to walk along Silom in the vicinity of Pat Pong during the evening, or along Nana and Sukhumvit between Sois 3 and 33 any time of the day or night, or even at places like the Grand Palace, would understandably develop an immediate life long dislike of foreigners. I have been exposed to tourists in most countries of the world and I have never much liked what I saw of these people anywhere. I believe that they are only tolerated because of the money they bring into the country and otherwise most residents in countries where there are a lot of tourists would just as soon that they were not there - and from what I have seen and heard that certainly applies to Thailand. Regretably it seems that people are on their worst behaviour when they travel outside their own country.