Traffic Chaos In Bangkok As Protesters Close Main Roads

[sriracha john]

Ok, I am tired now of replying to simplistic posts....

There's yet another canned, overworked response.

some people just dwell on trivia and picking apart the bits of posts they don; tlike like the oysters form a chicken... That is not debating, that is bone picking.

Dwelling on trivia like outlandish, some might even say trollish, claims? Ask mc2 sometime about his "phD [sic] in Thai cultural studies" that he tried to put over in an attempt to legitimize his expertise.

Debunking that BS was a Thaivisa Classic. I'm surprised he still shows his face around here.

No doubt going for the "with time, no will remember" stratagem.

Edited April 10, 2009 by sriracha john

[eldar1]

I think I did say at least ten times now for the hard of understanding, I am not recommending Thaksin, I am recommending a step forward to true democracy and freedom of speech via an immediate and fair election...

Hmm i carefully read those sentences right below your instructions to read carefully and you are saying that while you are not pro-thaksin you do support him and his movement because they temporarily align with your goals and have enough support to maybe pull it off. I just don't see how you can separate the 2, at what point do you stop supporting the reds then? right after they overthrow the government but before they install thaksin back into power? the thing is that by supporting them you are helping in their end goal which happens to be diametrically opposite of your stated goal of reform. Or are you hoping that the red mob will make the government step down, call elections and then have thaksin or TRT not contest them?

*edit, had to snip most of the conversion because of the maximum nested quotes rule

Edited April 10, 2009 by eldar1

[ovenman]

No doubt going for the "with time, no will remember" stratagem.

Shades of The Gobbledygooker.

[madi]

Why is it any farang care?

It is none of their business.

You are all just visitors here in case you did not know it.

You cannot vote.

You cannot own property.

No one gives a rat's what you think about their politics here in Thailand.

The Reds and Yellows both agree on these things.

Party

Enjoy

But leave the politics to Thais when in Thailand.

[rainman]

Wow, you guys are still at it. We probably all agree on this:

PAD will come back if Thaksin comes to power and the UDD aren't going away while Abhisit is in power.

So where does Thailand go from here?

[edwardmoulton]

Ok, I am tired now of replying to simplistic posts....

There's yet another canned, overworked response.

some people just dwell on trivia and picking apart the bits of posts they don; tlike like the oysters form a chicken... That is not debating, that is bone picking.

Dwelling on trivia like outlandish, some might even say trollish, claims? Ask mc2 sometime about his "phD [sic] in Thai cultural studies" that he tried to put over in an attempt to legitimize his expertise.

What 'trivia like outlandish, some might even say trollish, claims' - you must be a very sad person indeed if you feel that my claims were that. I am a regular person who met Abhisit because a I (amongst hundreds of others) went to a couple of the dinners for Oxford and Cambridge alumni in BKK and spoke to him each time, I have a wife and family here and a business.... Oooh, so strange and outlandish... Now I am going for that beer after my outlandish attempts to fix the water pump to the house finally succeeded and I was able to take a shower. Yes, I live in a house too and we have water now.... Shocker! Get a life...

[edwardmoulton]

Why is it any farang care?

It is none of their business.

You are all just visitors here in case you did not know it.

You cannot vote.

You cannot own property.

No one gives a rat's what you think about their politics here in Thailand.

The Reds and Yellows both agree on these things.

Party

Enjoy

But leave the politics to Thais when in Thailand.

Spoken like a true Thai. You get honorary MTTT status... We should all just stop caring, taking any interest at all and become brainless retards like most Thais.... Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

[rainman]

Why is it any farang care?

May as well start telling Thais to stop caring how many goals Liverpool or Arsenal score.

[edwardmoulton]

I think I did say at least ten times now for the hard of understanding, I am not recommending Thaksin, I am recommending a step forward to true democracy and freedom of speech via an immediate and fair election...

Hmm i carefully read those sentences right below your instructions to read carefully and you are saying that while you are not pro-thaksin you do support him and his movement because they temporarily align with your goals and have enough support to maybe pull it off. I just don't see how you can separate the 2, at what point do you stop supporting the reds then? right after they overthrow the government but before they install thaksin back into power? the thing is that by supporting them you are helping in their end goal which happens to be diametrically opposite of your stated goal of reform. Or are you hoping that the red mob will make the government step down, call elections and then have thaksin or TRT not contest them?

*edit, had to snip most of the conversion because of the maximum nested quotes rule

Fair point and well reasoned for a change here. My hope (maybe somewhat naively) is that the government is overthrown, a quick election is called but the deal for the government to step down is that Thaksin cannot stand for election and a new face takes the helm as leader of coalition but this time with a properly elected government and most importantly the constitution is reformed and certain parties do not influence politics as written into the constitution. Something like that... Now I am off out.... Thanks for keeping me interested though!

Edited April 10, 2009 by edwardmoulton

[edwardmoulton]

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/04/11...cs_30100243.php

Exactly... Goodnight.

[chrislarsson]

If Abhisit really has the backing of the majority of Thais, he should have nothing to fear by calling for new elections.

There is something going on other than politics in Thailand. It is amazing to me how many people forget the economy. New elections is exactly what this country does not need now.

Elections may be expensive. But using people power to change government every three months can hardly be cheaper.

[IMA_FARANG]

If Abhisit really has the backing of the majority of Thais, he should have nothing to fear by calling for new elections.

There is something going on other than politics in Thailand. It is amazing to me how many people forget the economy. New elections is exactly what this country does not need now.

Elections may be expensive. But using people power to change government every three months can hardly be cheaper.

Elections won't solve the problem.

The country is so nearly divided politically 50-50 that elections won't resolve the problem.

Both sides think they are right, and don't want to accept any compromise with the other side.

Elections are not going to change anything because any government can not enforce a decision both sides will accept.

I don't like the idea, but an Army Coup and a dissolution of all political parties, with a 3 year hiatus on all political activity might do the trick.

But that would only be if there was a Thai army officer who was willing to put the interests of Thailand and it's people below his own interest.

Such a person could enforce his own decisions, reform the government to serve all Thais, and not just the wealthy.

Then having done that, just walk away, and leave it.

So far, I don't see any Thai politicians or Army officers available who would be willing to do that.

So I think the chance is just about nil.

Just my humble opinion.

[chrislarsson]

If Abhisit really has the backing of the majority of Thais, he should have nothing to fear by calling for new elections.

There is something going on other than politics in Thailand. It is amazing to me how many people forget the economy. New elections is exactly what this country does not need now.

Elections may be expensive. But using people power to change government every three months can hardly be cheaper.

Elections won't solve the problem.

The country is so nearly divided politically 50-50 that elections won't resolve the problem.

Both sides think they are right, and don't want to accept any compromise with the other side.

Elections are not going to change anything because any government can not enforce a decision both sides will accept.

I don't like the idea, but an Army Coup and a dissolution of all political parties, with a 3 year hiatus on all political activity might do the trick.

But that would only be if there was a Thai army officer who was willing to put the interests of Thailand and it's people below his own interest.

Such a person could enforce his own decisions, reform the government to serve all Thais, and not just the wealthy.

Then having done that, just walk away, and leave it.

So far, I don't see any Thai politicians or Army officers available who would be willing to do that.

So I think the chance is just about nil.

Just my humble opinion.

Many elections in the West are also closely divided into 50-50. The problem seems to be that the interest of Bangkok and the rural areas are divided.

The army already did take over and then held election. I can't see why 3 years would be so different to 1. And you pretty much have an army appointed government now anyway.

The only way to solve the he long run is to start closing the income gap. You can not have one part of the country with enormous economic development, and leaving other parts behind with none. Will the army do anything about that?

[henryalleman]

Yes, I am British but I do understand the system as we also have had coalitions in the UK too. It is pretty simple. If there is no faith in a government (motion of no confidence in the UK, censure here etc), the government calls an election, it does not allow the other parties to get together to make a new government. Never... If a leader of a party steps down or is forced down as with Samak, then a new leader of the party takes his place.... So either way, an election is needed as you cannot tell me that the yellow shirts forcing Somchai out and we then get a new PM in the form of Abhisit who no-one ahs ever voted for is right... that would be like Abhisit stepping down now and Thaksin is declared the new PM with out an election!...

Oh yeah, and when was the last coalition government in the UK? You had during WW1 and WW2 National Unity governments including all parties. This you can hardly call and coalition government in the real sense. And in the UK you have the system that the winner takes it all and that's one of the reasons that the Liberal party is virtually blocked from power.

BTW how many coalition governments the UK had since WW2?

Your comments show clearly that you only familiar with the Anglo-Saxon political system and not with the latin system of Continenal Europe and a great other part of the world;

[coxhoedave]

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

[henryalleman]

I might be wrong, but even if the opposition parties join together (well this doesnt happen, individual politicians would still be members of that party unless they switched parties) the PM would still be PM, what happens is the opposition get enough members to out vote the government on any issues, the government can in fact continue but it would be pointless, at this point they will call an election. this is why its important in the UK to win enough seats to outvote the opposition parties and to make sure your own party politicians toe the line and vote for your side.

If the opposition parties do end up with more votes they still can not form a government, only the party winning most seats at an election can form the government, if the winning party don't have a majority over the opposition parties then its important to form coalitions, however the opposition forming coalitions will still not bring them into power

As i wrote in a previous comment, you are talking about the Anglo-Saxon system. The Latin system is totally different. So is the Thai system who is based on the Latin system.

You are comparing apples and pears.

[bulmercke]

Spot the difference.

[redscouse]

I might be wrong, but even if the opposition parties join together (well this doesnt happen, individual politicians would still be members of that party unless they switched parties) the PM would still be PM, what happens is the opposition get enough members to out vote the government on any issues, the government can in fact continue but it would be pointless, at this point they will call an election. this is why its important in the UK to win enough seats to outvote the opposition parties and to make sure your own party politicians toe the line and vote for your side.

If the opposition parties do end up with more votes they still can not form a government, only the party winning most seats at an election can form the government, if the winning party don't have a majority over the opposition parties then its important to form coalitions, however the opposition forming coalitions will still not bring them into power

As i wrote in a previous comment, you are talking about the Anglo-Saxon system. The Latin system is totally different. So is the Thai system who is based on the Latin system.

You are comparing apples and pears.

I am not comparing, you raised the Uk system and I am sure there are posters here who don't know how it works, so I explained it, at no time did I try to make any comparisons

[redscouse]

Spot the difference.

The top one is less wooden and has more control

[redscouse]

They can win and I hope they will win,

All I see here from the detractors of the red movement are criticism and jokes about Thaksin. I NEVER EVER see any positive recommendation for the Abhisit yellow government.

Could that be because there is nothing good to say about it?

Abhisit is smart and cool but unproven and singularly lacking in any charisma. He is no leader which is why he has chosen to 'caretake' for the real power behind, the military and others we cannot name here.

He is surrounded by a team of halfwits - Kasit (no need to even comment on him as the whole world knows he is a helpless retard who has made enemies of everyone), Suthep (who has failed at every step of his tenure and now cannot even organise security), and Korn (who has no grasp of basic economics let alone macro economics to lead Thailand out of trouble, just borrows to curry favour and lies all the time about the recession) and others who receive no limelight so I assume they are powerless.

And please remember that these are just the mouthpieces for a lot more sinister controlling powers behind that can basically do whatever they want and are turning Thailand into a police state rapidly.

On the other hand you have a movement led by Thaksin. Sure he and his family stole billions but he also made billions for Thailand and himself because he is a strong leader and a shrewd businessman. In his time he repaid the national debts, opened Thailand to external trade and tried to break the old guard which has always kept Thailand back. He tried to give at least some power to the people too... The people were not unhappy with him, the rich elite were because they were threatened by him.

Even if you do not wish to see Thaksin back in power, ask yourself if you want Thailand to stay in the dark ages ruled but he handful of rich families and military who bend the rules to their ends, twist the law to promote corruption and have no interest at all in doing anything for the people other than keeping them as modern day slaves.

You do not have to be pro-Thaksin or even a socialist to want change, you simply have to be pro-democracy and pro-reform in a country that is LONG over due for some of that. Put down the red shirts and look forward to many more years of corruption, military force and injustice with no freedom of speech and a population kept down. Go for it!

[henryalleman]

Lets call a spade a spade.

The red shirts failed completely to organize a mass demonstration, and they did not succeeded any of their goals or targets

First they announced 1 million people, they could hardly get 100 000 and even that number came down rapidly after a few hours.

They proclaimed that they will demonstrate all over the country, also this failed.

They announced they will block the traffic in Bangkok completely by 20 000 taxis, also this failed, even that much that by standers pushed away the blocking taxis and burned red flags while the crowd was cheering GO AWAY. Did you see in YouTube how the taxis drove away to escape from the anger of the public. And I wrote PUBLIC not yellow shirts.

They announced that they will block the ASEAN meeting in Pattaya, they failed. I just saw some news covering on TV that the participants of the meeting where joking on the terrace of the hotel about the pathetic attempt of the red shirts to enter the hotel.

My wife is in Chiang Mai on a family visit, she did not see any demonstration, and not even see a red shirt. And this is in a so called stronghold of the red's.

They announced that ten thousands demonstrators from issan will come to Bangkok, where are they?

Its very clear that you didn't have the support from the Thai public nationwide, even worse they start to dislike you and showed it very clear on a few occasions.

So all red shirts fan in this forum accept your defeat with grace, lick your wounds of your shattered dreams and ego and move on. Don't blame others for your defeat, because you created your defeat by yourself.

And if you are genuine to the reforms you demanded, get rid of Thaksin and his cronies and start to work on new party with new young politicians and distance yourself from nitwits like Chalerm and Samak and do what any opposition party is doing in a democracy, oppose in the parliament and not on the streets. And use the time to the next election to reform your movement and make a decent political plan with a better future for the country you claim to love.

You learned a hard lesson so you should learn from it. And maybe this can even benefit you in the future not making the same mistakes.

So we can conclude that besides a few thousands hardcore red shirts, the public did not support you at all.

Even Thaksin, at last start to understand that his game is over, that's why he stopped his phone-ins and let his family flee the country.

THE GAME IS OVER, BECAUSE YOU PLAYED WITH THE WRONG CARDS AND LOST.

Kind regards and wish you the best

henry

[henryalleman]

I might be wrong, but even if the opposition parties join together (well this doesnt happen, individual politicians would still be members of that party unless they switched parties) the PM would still be PM, what happens is the opposition get enough members to out vote the government on any issues, the government can in fact continue but it would be pointless, at this point they will call an election. this is why its important in the UK to win enough seats to outvote the opposition parties and to make sure your own party politicians toe the line and vote for your side.

If the opposition parties do end up with more votes they still can not form a government, only the party winning most seats at an election can form the government, if the winning party don't have a majority over the opposition parties then its important to form coalitions, however the opposition forming coalitions will still not bring them into power

As i wrote in a previous comment, you are talking about the Anglo-Saxon system. The Latin system is totally different. So is the Thai system who is based on the Latin system.

You are comparing apples and pears.

I am not comparing, you raised the Uk system and I am sure there are posters here who don't know how it works, so I explained it, at no time did I try to make any comparisons

Sorry for my mistake.

[WeeGB]

Spot the difference.

The chap in the bottom picture has a longer nose.

[ovenman]

I am a regular person who met Abhisit because a I (amongst hundreds of others) went to a couple of the dinners for Oxford and Cambridge alumni in BKK and spoke to him each time

Spoken like a true Thai. You get honorary MTTT status... We should all just stop caring, taking any interest at all and become brainless retards like most Thais....

Emphasis mine in red above, a perspective that you no doubt raise with 'Mark' during the annual soiree with the ol' school chums, correct?

[sriracha john]

100 taxis with 500 red-shirted to move to Pattaya

The red-shirted movement will deploy 100 taxis with 500 protesters to join the rally in Pattaya.

Veera Musigawong, a red-shirted leader, recruited 500 men volunteers from the Government House at 6:35 pm to join the rally in Pattaya.

Veera said people in Pattaya attacked the red-shirted people

While the red shirts were pushing their way towards the hotel, about 100 disgruntled local people wearing blue shirts turned up and scolded them.

Both groups exchanged heated words and engaged in scuffles. The blue-shirt people swarmed the protesters' cars and pushed them, prompting some of the red shirts to flee.

The two sides clashed briefly before security forces stepped in. The situation was brought under control within half an hour. There were reports of minor injuries.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/1488...pattaya-protest

[brahmburgers]

Wow, you guys are still at it. We probably all agree on this:

PAD will come back if Thaksin comes to power and the UDD aren't going away while Abhisit is in power.

So where does Thailand go from here?

We don't agree, Rainman. The UDD and DAAD are fading as we speak. The TRT became the smaller PPP became the smaller PT and they're fading also. Thaksin is a tin horn blowing from afar, and he's fading also.

Thailand will continue to have Abhisit at the helm, at least for awhile longer. Compared to the four or five PM's Thailand has been stuck with since Chuan, Abhisit is a breath of fresh air, and shows promise for the future.

Goodbye Reds. Your attempt to copy the success of the Yellows failed, despite your attempts to goad the police to join in your mayhem. Go back, Reds, to your shops and rice fields. When a new election is called, go and organize and campaign hardily. That's the way it's supposed to be done - by the ballot box.

[rixalex]

I just don't see how you can separate the 2, at what point do you stop supporting the reds then? right after they overthrow the government but before they install thaksin back into power? the thing is that by supporting them you are helping in their end goal which happens to be diametrically opposite of your stated goal of reform. Or are you hoping that the red mob will make the government step down, call elections and then have thaksin or TRT not contest them?

Fair point and well reasoned for a change here. My hope (maybe somewhat naively) is that the government is overthrown, a quick election is called but the deal for the government to step down is that Thaksin cannot stand for election and a new face takes the helm as leader of coalition but this time with a properly elected government and most importantly the constitution is reformed and certain parties do not influence politics as written into the constitution. Something like that... Now I am off out.... Thanks for keeping me interested though!

You said it yourself - "naive". Yes, very.

Your cunning plan relies critically on one flimsy and highly unlikely premise:

Supposing that the current government was overthrown by red power (as you wish for), what are the chances of them being in any position to make demands of Thaksin, vis-a-vis him (or his proxy) not standing for election? After all, even with Thaksin in a place of weakness as he is now, they've failed to be able to control him.

Added to which, Thaksin has repeatedly and on different occasions, claimed that he would not involve himself in politics, and every time this has proved a lie. Take his word at your peril.

[andrewfr]

Lets call a spade a spade.

The red shirts failed completely to organize a mass demonstration, and they did not succeeded any of their goals or targets

First they announced 1 million people, they could hardly get 100 000 and even that number came down rapidly after a few hours.

They proclaimed that they will demonstrate all over the country, also this failed.

They announced they will block the traffic in Bangkok completely by 20 000 taxis, also this failed, even that much that by standers pushed away the blocking taxis and burned red flags while the crowd was cheering GO AWAY. Did you see in YouTube how the taxis drove away to escape from the anger of the public. And I wrote PUBLIC not yellow shirts.

They announced that they will block the ASEAN meeting in Pattaya, they failed. I just saw some news covering on TV that the participants of the meeting where joking on the terrace of the hotel about the pathetic attempt of the red shirts to enter the hotel.

My wife is in Chiang Mai on a family visit, she did not see any demonstration, and not even see a red shirt. And this is in a so called stronghold of the red's.

They announced that ten thousands demonstrators from issan will come to Bangkok, where are they?

Its very clear that you didn't have the support from the Thai public nationwide, even worse they start to dislike you and showed it very clear on a few occasions.

So all red shirts fan in this forum accept your defeat with grace, lick your wounds of your shattered dreams and ego and move on. Don't blame others for your defeat, because you created your defeat by yourself.

And if you are genuine to the reforms you demanded, get rid of Thaksin and his cronies and start to work on new party with new young politicians and distance yourself from nitwits like Chalerm and Samak and do what any opposition party is doing in a democracy, oppose in the parliament and not on the streets. And use the time to the next election to reform your movement and make a decent political plan with a better future for the country you claim to love.

You learned a hard lesson so you should learn from it. And maybe this can even benefit you in the future not making the same mistakes.

So we can conclude that besides a few thousands hardcore red shirts, the public did not support you at all.

Even Thaksin, at last start to understand that his game is over, that's why he stopped his phone-ins and let his family flee the country.

THE GAME IS OVER, BECAUSE YOU PLAYED WITH THE WRONG CARDS AND LOST.

Kind regards and wish you the best

henry

For once a correct and sensible analysis!

[h90]

Koo is that you??

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/04/11...cs_30100241.php

ANTI-GOVERNMENT RALLY

Signs of red-shirt rift emerge as DAAD trio comes fire

By Pravit Rojanaphruk

The Nation

Published on April 11, 2009

Signs of red-shirt rift emerge as DAAD trio comes fire

Bangkokians may be relieved upon seeing red-shirted, pro-Thaksin Democratic Alliance against Dictatorship (DAAD) protesters ending the blockade of Victory Monument, Bangkok's main traffic hub, but some of those manning the area yesterday were heartbroken and signs of a rift within the movement began to emerge.

Though DAAD leaders ordered the mob to abandon the area by 5pm, a section of Rajvithee Road, about a kilometre east of Victory Monument, was still a no man's land with a few dozen red-shirt protesters, a dozen taxis and a similar number of motorcycles blocking the virtually empty road. The atmosphere was calm but surreal.

The organic leader who emerged there was Noi (not her real nickname), a woman in her late 30s working at a ministry and with a PhD from an Ivy League university in the United States.

She hadn't slept much the previous night and spent most of her time defending her new turf on day two of the protest. They had done so on their own initiative and without orders from DAAD leaders, but were now being told to retreat.

"This is our turf, and we won't retreat yet!" she told a dozen other red shirts.

"Please carry out your duty politely," she reminded her troops, most of whom she had met just a day ago.

Noi then rode on a protester's motorcycle to Victory Monument to hold an emergency meeting with other progressive reds about what to do about the trio of DAAD leaders, namely Nattawut Saikua, Veera Musikapong and Jatuporn Promphan.

She labelled the three as "authoritarian" and who didn't even listen to other DAAD leaders like Jakrapob Penkair, who had got into an argument with them two days ago.

Noi and her peers wanted to negotiate with one of the three to tell them that they wanted to stay on.

She doesn't trust them and said the three could even be taking ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra for a ride, making money out of leading the protest - or worse still secretly striking a deal with the old elite, whom the red shirts are up against.

She said the trio hadn't attempted to send food or any assistance to the area on Thursday night. The place was dark and they encountered attacks by what she believes to be members of the anti-Thaksin People's Alliance for Democracy.

Noi wants to see an end to old elite's monopoly of Thai politics, with a welfare state and equality for every citizen.

"Well, we want to use Thaksin [to achieve our goal], and let me ask who else [amongst the politicians] dares to reveal [the manipulation of politics]. Some say Thaksin is using the [red] people but the people don't care if it's Thaksin or not. They no longer want to be under the yoke of the old elite. They can't bear it any longer."

Talk about Thaksin being corrupt and abusive while he was prime minister sends Noi ballistic.

"And what about the [2006] coup? Do they care about what ordinary people think?" she said.

At a McDonald's next to Victory Monument, Noi met with three other well-educated reds, who called their group "Red Move".

One of the three was very upset about the DAAD leaders calling off the seizure of Victory Monument and said there were many messages on the Internet lambasting the trio.

"We don't need to accept everything they say," shouted the man.

The group wanted to declare their existence to the press and for the world to know about them, but it was too late as by 6pm, as the tens of thousands of protesters began melting away.

"People have been fooled time and again," Noi said bitterly from the restaurant, as the protesters left on foot and by lorry.

At 7.04pm, she called this Nation reporter, sounding panicky and under stress.

"We're still blocking the road, and the cops are coming, over!" she said.

[neverdie]

Rainman is certainly getting worked up about this one.

Rainman, "YOU ARE NOT A THAI" , I will repeat this for you in case you missed it the first time, "You are not a Thai".

Amazing Thailand Expats

I'm not worked up at all, I'm just giving everyone my thoughts as this unfolds. Read them if you want, don't read them if you don't. I have my opinions and you have yours. I'm not Thai and probably neither are you, so what's the problem?

Rainman, You have been jumping up and down like a one legged man in an arse kicking contest, you need to realise that no matter how thai you might think you are in the thaieye your not even worthy of an opinion.