The Long, Strange Trip

[Ijustwannateach]

Or, well, with anyone. I've had relationships last 6-8 months before, but rarely longer. I've usually stayed friends with past loves; things just didn't work out in the long run.

But now, for the first time, and with a Thai, I'm finding myself in a relationship that's got a good 14 months behind it (with a 3 month, um, break due to difficulties I'm discussing elsewhere). It's interesting how things have changed even in this relatively short time:

1. Sex is no longer the most important glue in the relationship (though it is still very important). Trust and love have become more important over time.

2. We've gradually become more domestic (partly, I'm sure, because he finally got a job!)

3. We talk more about what's possible and less about the unrealizable.

4. He's more jealous than ever!

5. He's planning for the future more.

6. I've begun to think more about getting a bigger apartment.

Are there any other things that the members here have to say/point out/advise/reminisce/observe about long term relationships, in general and/or especially with Thai guys?

"Steven"

[peter991]

Congratulations Steven. The fact that you have been together for 14 months is great in any relationship (gay or straight). It's probably been helped along by the factors you described ... living fulltime in LOS helps, also the fact that your Thai partner is now earning an income. I guess your knowledge of the Thai language is fairly good and you can both converse in English and Thai.

I guess Thai guys would have to be the most jealous of any nationality I have ever observed. But - please don't look at this through farang eyes. Instead of jealous, think protective, possessive and proud of you.

I'm coming back in a couple of weeks to be with my love, I'll PM you for some advice.

Peter

[ChrisP]

I guess Thai guys would have to be the most jealous of any nationality I have ever observed. But - please don't look at this through farang eyes. Instead of jealous, think protective, possessive and proud of you.

I second that!! Big Time. My relationship with a Thai is now going on 8 months.. and even though I'm not there all the time, he's monogamous, and "jealous"... all the time.

I like LTR's. My last relationship (in USA) was 6 years... my only advice is find ways not to become "just room-mates". That's what happened to us. In the end there was no passion or physical intimacy left.. just emotional intimacy.

ChrisP

[Ijustwannateach]

^^Thanks, Peter, looking forward to your PM! I agree about the jealousy thing. He actually seems happy when he thinks I'm being jealous, too. I saw him by chance at his shop last night talking to a cute girl at the bakery next door- and I teased him about it later- and he rolled his eyes, but actually I think he seemed happy that I had been "watching!" Right after this he gave me a hug and an "I love you" cookie that he had bought from that bakery for me!

^I'm curious about that, Chris- any suggestions on how NOT to become "just roommates?" I don't have much practice with this stage of relationships...

"Steven"

[ProThaiExpat]

I have had relationships that have lasted for as long as six years (2) and many shorter, but they were always monogamous until the end when playing around started or three ways were engaged in.

I know one falang-thai couple of 15 years but they have been going to the Sauna individually for five of those fifteen years. I would put them in the roommate class. I have seen many roomate type relationships in the U.S., usually what is left over after the sex thing is exhausted and the playing around starts.

If you want your relationship to last for a great many years, I would suggest monogamy is essential. If your only outlet is your lover, unless your still using your hand, then your sex drive will get you over the bumps. I have had a total lack of desire for a period of weeks with long term lovers, but I didn't do anything hasty, and the desire came back.

Caveat, I go for younger guys, usually 30 years younger than myself, so they have more of a problem with monogamy than I do, as their testerone level is higher and they haven't experienced life as I have.

As to my three year relationship with my Thai, our love is stronger today than at the beginning. Sex for me is not more than once a week, but afterall, I am a senior, and my lover of 40 still has a great body and 0 body fat, works out at the gym and does sport everyday. My lust remains in my head for him, but the delivery system isn't as before. Thus my dilema is performing as often as my mind wants to. I now just do it when the physical urge comes on, as the mental urge is always there.

I have lost all desire for others and while I appreciate beauty in all forms, it is just that, admiration not lust. My love for my Thai is just too great to contemplate consumation with another.

My read on my Thais point of view, as expressed often, is that he is a one man man, that his mother taught him to marry for life and he says he has not encountered another falang as "smart" as me. That smart includes looks, money, physique and amiabiliity. It is a total package for him and his love for me is the oil that makes it all work. The same for me. We adore each other and cannot think of others in any physical or romantic way, we do "window shop" and he is sufficiently attractive to be hit on by falang all the time when he is alone. His standard answer is "I would love to in my next life".

It is often said, your grow together or you grow apart. You can only change yourself, never your lover, so don't try. I have had to make major adjustments in this relationship due to the cultural differences, but everytime I surrendered to the new concept, things only got better. I am even doing dishes occasionally, although my Thai scolds me when I do.

My Thai has many ways he shows me his love that I never experienced before and my daughter, knowing what a control freak I was, told me to just let up and let him "do for me", ie. become passive when he want to show his love by massaging my feet, bringing me cold water during the day, etc.etc.etc.

Have I seen him change in three years, yes. Has it all been for the better, no. Have I adjusted, yes. We do laugh about his attempts to nag. Essentially, we both have the same degree of interest in socializing, doing sport, making love and being retired together. Saving and handling money is the only area we have problems, but most relationships have that problem. Since I am the income deliverer, it is up to me to protect our long range financial interests, but day to day I would buy him anying he wants and I give as much money to his family that I can without jepordizing our long term financial health.

Fortunately, money is not important to me, as long as I have enough to be comfortable, so if the unused balance of my income, not my capital, ends up with him or his family, that is fine for me, as I don't need it. I bought his mother a house, the third best in her village and she was then able to take a hot shower, at 77 and having raised 7 children, including my lover so well, she was most deserving.

Her face was raised so high in her village by the house that the tranformation in her overall standing was remarkable and the residual happiness to my Thai was so great that I couldn't have done more for someone than that. When you love as we do, you can't do enough for your lover and it is really effortless. Besides when you love, you aren't demanding and if your smart, you won't raise expectations, just accept what comes your way with gratitude.

I leave it to you readers to look in the foregoing for my opinions as to what makes relationships last. If you want more details, PM me. Cheers

PS. Jealousy is ever present, but not a problem as we constantly assure each other of our fidelity and don't give each other cause to be jealous. I agree with the post that when you give all to another, your entitled to all in return and if you think your not getting all, then you rightly get upset, as your being cheated. When I jokingly suggest that my Thai has a second husband, his reply is "Don't put me down, I am not like that". Even when we watched Safin play tennis today on T.V., I was asked if I wanted to "make it" with him. In prior relationships in the west, I would say "I wouldn't throw him out of bed". Now I say, truthfully, "he looks great and I admire his body but I have no lust for him" That is what monogamous love has done for me in Thailand with my Thai in a LTR.

Edited January 27, 2005 by ProThaiExpat

[Silvercharm]

Congrats, IJWT. I'm sure everything will get better and better. "B" and myself are approaching the four-year mark. We've had our ups and downs, like any relationship, but we've never given up on anything. Trust was a big issue at first with "B." Of course that was understandable given his age. If I dared talk to anyone, it was an immediate, "Why are you talking to him!" "I'm not good enough for you?" It took a lot of patience at times. Patience, understadning, and communication were some of the mose important things. Another that was equally important to these was looking into the long term. I knew eventually that the desired 100% trust would eventually happen, and it did. Actions, not words, are to important as heck. Be gentle and nurture. I can't speak for all Thai boys here, but many I have met, and including "B" have, at least in Western thought, very dysfunctional families. Usually the father is missing, father doesn't care, or maybe an abusive family member. "B" fits into one, and it's not the abuse. Getting him to open up, share about those repressed and hurtful feelings released a lot of inner turmoil for him. Sure, he saw much of his father in me, and the jelousy came from the total fear of being abandoned again. That understanding alone gave me a lot to work with to help "B" understand his own self and the jealousy. It took a few years, but it was sure worth it

Continue looking into the future. Okay, Thai's can have a problem with the "Be Here Now" attitude, but constant reminding of careful planning and obtaining goals have been beneficial to us. Four years and many more to come.

SC

[Steve2UK]

he is sufficiently attractive to be hit on by falang all the time when he is alone.  His standard answer is "I would love to in my next life".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's EXCELLENT - as is the rest of the post.................

[jdinasia]

yeay! a real thread! Decent direct and non-biased .... pleasant to see.

[ChrisP]

It is often said, your grow together or you grow apart.

That's what happened with my last LTR Asian-mix partner of 6 years in the US - in his 20's. We grew apart. He also changed over time. He definitely wasn't the same person he was when we met, and didn't have the same needs either. That became our downfall, and we just grew apart. I finally realized that I couldn't change him.. and I just wasn't getting MY needs met any more (he still was) and so - after MANY open discussions about the problem - I ended it.

I am going to watch more carefully for the same thing happening again this time..!

I agree about the jealousy thing. He actually seems happy when he thinks I'm being jealous, too. I saw him by chance at his shop last night talking to a cute girl at the bakery next door- and I teased him about it later- and he rolled his eyes, but actually I think he seemed happy that I had been "watching!"

My Thai is similar...!! I think Thai boys also see you "being jealous" as some kind of "proof" that you love him... and so may even go as far as to gently "provoke" that emotion.. either in words or action.. just to test the water! Sigh.

Constant re-assurance is also needed... that I'm not going to leave.. or cheat on him... or change my mind.

You also have to be VERY careful what you say... what would be an innocent or light-hearted comment in the USA suddenly becomes something BIG, critical and damning in a Thai's eyes..!

For example.. the other day he asked if we could get a computer for home.. Well, I figure it's about 25kBaht, so I (jokingly) said - very tongue-in-cheek "Not yet.... because you'll just go to the Online Chat Rooms...!" He didn't even stop for a second to THINK that I could possibly be joking... he just became SO moody and said "I have NOT done that for 2 years now.. You don't trust me.!! " I do know that he wouldn't do that...

Ok.. so maybe my sense of humour isn't too subtle either... but I don't think I would have got the same reaction in the US. It took about an hour for him to cool down...!

So, kind readers... with your Thai - Think gentle thoughts, think TWICE before you open your mouth, be generous, and be eternally patient!!

ChrisP

Edited January 28, 2005 by ChrisP

[Ijustwannateach]

Excellent and useful replies from so many... wow!

My guy hates his job but he understands why it's important (to me at least) for him to keep it. I asked him what he would do if he weren't working. "Study!" he says. I look at him with one eyebrow raised. "Really?" I ask. After a few moments, he says, "Well, I guess not..." Heh, heh. I know him well enough to force him to this level of honesty now! He also catches me more and more when I'm talking BS.

ProThai- what you said reminds me of one evening when I was visiting a lovely older British friend of mine for his birthday party. He had a new Thai bf at the time. As the party wound down and everyone left, it became obvious it was time for cleanup- and my friend started cleaning up the place.

Me: "R., why are you washing dishes?"

R.: "You know, that's a very good question."

Me: "Sit down."

At which point *I* started cleaning up the place. It was another 10 minutes or so before I think R.'s bf realized that he shouldn't have been letting R. do the work, and he rushed over and took *my* place at dishwashing. I don't know if that's any clear sign or not of how things stand in a relationship, but soon afterwards the two of them broke up.

My friend O. and I have settled into a bit of domestic division of labour- I do the laundry and room straightening regularly, he does dishes (relatively few) and the occasional floor+bathroom cleaning; I buy the household supplies, he brings home some soi foods at night for dinner.

Silver, hadn't realized you and B. had been together that long- congrats! Your story made me think more about O., as his family was certainly a troubled one, as well- similar issues could apply for him. I think he's realized, though, that I'll be completely honest with him- sometimes more honest than he really wants me to be, actually- and so for him if there are issues in our relationship it's not about trust but about the terms of the relationship. I still call him my "ex" on this forum because we're not yet really boyfriends again after our break- in the sense that when I agree to be his boyfriend I'm implicitly promising not to date others anymore, (which I'm not really doing- that is, dating others- but keeping my options open in theory pending his good behavior)- and as *my* trust in him has increased again, the state of our relationship has reached exclusivity anyway, as it was supposed to. He sometimes puts on a mock-sad face and complains "oh, poor me, I have no boyfriend...." Then I hug him and remind him that we're getting there eventually. Perhaps this works better than actually declaring exclusivity.... hmmmmm...

I think something I will have to work with him on is some pent-up anger he has- I'm sure that's from his family background and "issues" there.

Chris,

Yeah, my guy's really sensitive to my mentioning other guys- if I talk about them at *ALL*, he starts in on me: "Oh, you like him?" Even when I really, really, really am asking something in curiosity: "Who is that tall geeky kid that's hanging out in your shop all the time?" [he has Hermann Munster hair and Jaws-style braces- yeah, really attractive!] "I know you like him!"

Or if I mention anyone else's wealth/good fortune, he's prone to taking this as a criticism of his lack of same. He seems to find it harder to believe I can love him for just him without having a lot of wealth, nice home, family, car, etc....

Of course, when we're walking around in public and I see him eyeing the farang who are his type, this is Completely Different!!! However, I know that guys are guys, and looking is looking. I do it myself and don't expect him to be more of a saint!

"Steven"

[scubachild]

So many interesting stories.

I want to thank everyone for sharing their experiences. What ProThaiExpat said about buying a house for b/f mother brought a tear to my eyes! I am now one month into what I hope will be a long term relationship with a young Thai man. I will remember the advise given here, maybe I will be able to add some words of wisdom myself when the topic comes around again in a year or two!

[Ijustwannateach]

We had a bit of a spat last night over money for the first time, which was especially important, I think, because I had no real idea what we were arguing about- I'm going to have to figure this one out.

Him: I'm so poor now. I have no money.

Me: But you get paid this week, right? Then you'll have some money.

Him: You know it's not enough to live.

Me: I know. So let's talk about how much you make and how much you need and make a budget.

Him: <sounding frustrated> I went out with my friends the other night and I was ashamed because I didn't have money to share with my friends!

Me: Ok, I know you have to pay sometimes, but only sometimes- you're just a student, right? We can plan for that in the budget.

Him: <very frustrated now> I don't want to plan! Before <when he was making a lot of money as part of a gambling operation!!> I didn't have to worry! My friends have more money than I do!

Me: Well, you'll have to accept that, because you are a student with a normal job now, right? You can't be a big spender like you used to be.

Him: I know that!

Me: So, how can I help you?

Him: I don't want you to help me; I feel ashamed.

Me: I want to help you because I know you don't make enough and you're a student and I care about you. But we should make a plan.

Him: Just help me when I'm out of money! <for example, the last week of this month he needed food money because he'd spent most of his salary on his school fees before>

Me: I don't mind helping you, but since *I* have to plan *my* budget, we need to plan one for you! Of course if you have a big accident or you're sick I'll help out, but for the regular time we need a regular plan!

Him: I don't want to plan!

This conversation continued in a circular fashion until we both gave up, frustrated and angry. In retrospect, I think he wants me to be his insurance policy- if he's out of money (in a reasonable way) he expects me to help. On the other hand, I'm not so rich that I can just dish out money at a moment's notice, and I need to do a bit of planning in advance. I'm afraid that if I give him carte blanche, he'll be tempted to abuse it by treating his friends with his salary at the beginning of the month and expecting me to fill in the rest of the month (as was hinted slightly in this conversation). That's why I'm requiring some sort of budgeting and planning, so that he's still responsible for his own behavior. So I think we have a bit of a conflict in lifestyle and in attitudes towards money here. Comments, suggestions?

"Steven"

[peter991]

Steven: I can understand your frustration. My Thai bf, who I will call N have been together now since July last year. When I met him, he was working in a gay bar. Before EVERYBODY jumps in and tells me that bar boys never change, N and I talked a lot in the 6 weeks we were together in Thailand.

I told him when I came back to Australia that I would only stay his bf if he left the bar scene. I thought to myself: Why would a boy who has family in Issan and has worked in bars for the last 4 years leave 'the good life.'

N and I have kept in touch by emails and phone calls since I left Thailand. He left the bar a week after I left and moved in with his sister in her room in Bangkok and got a job in a store. I arranged for a friend to 'check him out' and what he told me is the truth.

He has not asked for any money since I came back to Australia - although I did send him a small amount once. He has learnt to adjust his lifestyle and get new friends and to live on his income, which dropped from over 25000 baht a month working in the bar to around 4000 baht a month now.

Losing face is incredibly serious to Thai guys. We farang tend to be very thick skinned. N is concerned about what people say about him and thinks he can read my mind all the time (okay, some of the time is he right!)

I am flying back to be with N in a few days, then the two of us are off to his village in Issan, where I hope to buy us both a shop/house. I'll post a report when I return to Australia at the end of February.

Perhaps, Steven, you could give your bf a set allowance each month conditional on him continuing his studies.

[Ijustwannateach]

Peter, it's amazing if he's really done that- kudos to both of you. I broke up with my guy when his money wasn't adding up (as per another thread) for about 3 months- his claim was that he was making gambling-related income, and it may even be true... I'd told him that he needed to get a real (non-bar-related) job at a place where I could go and see him working, and he finally did. I guess he's still hanging out with some of the bad crowd and doesn't feel good that he's the "poor cousin" now.

A lot of these young guys don't see what will happen in the future. They don't realize that if they stay in the gambling/black market stuff, they'll be unemployable and either become big-time criminals (if successful) or stay small-time stooges forever. If they work in a bar-related job, they don't realize how quickly they'll lose their looks and the related income. And I think they don't really want to know.

O. is making about 5K a month now working in a store. If my guy graduates and gets his degree, and then makes it into some fairly decent job, that's probably 8-10K a month- if he's really lucky or does really well. Over his working lifetime, he could probably manage to double that every ten years if he doesn't screw up and he keeps the same kinds of jobs and builds a network. Since he was already making the same money as a government minister's salary (during his life of crime), I can see how this would be a depressing prospect compared to the quick, easy money while he's young. But I don't date criminals! (nevermind guys who also have girlfriends! ) So I told him to make his choice, and he did- and I feel privileged to be chosen over the money. The long-term hope would, of course, to get O. into some sort of better business eventually, hopefully with another more business-savvy Thai.

I think your suggestion is the most feasible thing at the moment, Peter- the thing is to get *him* to accept a fixed "help" allowance- and to realize that if he blows it all at the beginning, he doesn't get more later on. That way lies madness...

"Steven"

[Silvercharm]

Gotta give "O" some credit for this. To be making that kind of money for a Thai his age is very good. To suddenly take a huge drop like that is a major life change. It would be very difficult to adjust to 4,000baht a month. I would be a little depressed and upset. But, he can do it. It will take a lot of patience on your part and a lot of emotional support as well.

When I met "B" some years back, he didn't have much money at all. His mother would give him a monthly allowance and that was about it. Throughout the past four years, I've supported "B." Basically, he would get a 4,000baht a month allowance from me, plus another 1,000 from his mother. When he started working 6-months ago, I agreed to give him only 1,000baht to help offset transportation. He was making 8,000baht to start and has since then risen up to about 13,000baht per month.

The nice thing is when he didn't have much, he learned how to save and to budget his own money. Now it's easier for him. Sure, at first it was spend, spend, spend. That's okay, I did the same thing when I was his age and received my first few paychecks. Now, he's becoming ever the wiser and is starting to appreciate the importance of saving.

Since you asked, my only comment would be to take it slow and to be very understanding. Don't push the issue all the time and allow him to find some appreciation on his own. Sure, you'll have to motivate him at times, but not overwhelm him. Find that nice balance.

SC

[PeaceBlondie]

Just a comment about budgeting. I suspect that Thais know how to get by on the money they have. But they don't really plan ahead. They have a nestegg somewhere (or family that can bail them out of an unexpected major expense), but don't like to plan ahead.

You start nailing them down, like "How much do you spend on a, b, and c?" and they don't know and don't want to figure it out. Maybe it's that type of critical analysis they're not good at, or they think the future is too uncertain. But I think a 'budget' that you write down on a piece of paper makes no sense to them. Maybe I'm wrong.

[ProThaiExpat]

I have tried everything iregarding money in the past three years with my Thai and nothing has really worked. I won't bore you with my many plans that didn't work, but believe me, I have tried everything. My conclusions are as follows:

1. Falang are usually either largely givers or takers. We givers have the problem as we try to help our Thais with money.

2. Our western approach to money is totally foreign to Thai lovers and they need to go to school to learn westrn money management techniques.

3. Falang lover is seen as the repository of money to be tapped to meet needs as they occur when their own supply of money, if any, is gone.

4. They have no sense of sticking to an agreement, whether it is a budget, contract regarding money or an allowance.

5. One really can't change the behaviour of our Thais. We can only change ourselves to accomodate our Thais. If we are lucky, we may be able to modify our Thais behaviour a tad, but not much more than that.

6. Their need for money will never end even tho promised.

7. Thais respect strong men and a very firm no, backed up by an unrelenting steadfastness to pressure in all its emotional forms is all that really works.

8. Many falang, including this one, are giving people who are problem solvers, so when a money problem is presented, we tend to try to solve it by giving money, which only compounds the syndrome.

9. The only way I have been able to handle it and I am not sure it will work is to determine my absolute limit of participation in my Thais continuing need to funnel money back to his family and lift the face of his family by buying houses and land.

10. From my Thais point of view, he sees, what appears to him as a lot of money, sitting in a bank account and for the life of him, can't see why I won't use it to help the one I love until it is gone!!!

11. I have given to the point that my back is to the wall. I am happy that I have. I have done a lot of good for the family and enriched my Thai so he is perceived, to be rich in his village, I am sure.

12. I am at the point where any future money to be used to ressurect my Thais ancestral home, must come from savings from current expenses. I am comfortable with this decision and my Thais looks like he is accepting this.

13. Notwithstanding the foregoing, today, the first of the month, my Thai was visibly upset because he couldn't send this month's savings home to pay for dirt, walls and cement on the house ressurection. The idea that the money isn't saved from current February expenses until the end of the month, was totally foreign to him.

14. I will advance an estimate of what we will save to him this time, but I cautioned him that he must get next months "savings" from the amount of an unpaid loan to his sister since he got an "advance" from savings in December to buy dirt for his land at home.. The money to re-habilitate his home will come from money heretofore loaned to family members and advanced for land purchases before. He seems to accept the fact that now that the old shack has been dismantled, the ground level of the land has been raised, drainage pipes installed and the wall built, the job can wait for funds advanced to come in or savings made to proceed further.

15. Much face has been raised now that the family "eyesore" has been cleaned up, after all the property is right across the street from the headman's house.

Mom is living in the house I bought for her some doors away, so the re-build will only be for family "face" and a rental, so in my view, if it takes two years to accomplish it, mai pen rai.

16. My limit has been reached and I am comfortable with how much I have helped. He will have to get used to that figure as well. I think it is dawing on him that he is near the end of the money trail and he seems to be ok with it. He is thinking like a Thai, mai pen rai, no more money from falang except for dribbles from monthly savings. At least his eye is no longer on my capital.

17. I initially suggested we could take the money my monthly savings for our annual trip and devote it to his needs as well, but thought better of it. I am sure I would feel resentful if I were to deprive myself of a trip home or to visit my daughter to satisfy my Thais need to improve his own or families net worth at the cost of my only true indulgence!!

In summary, what I mean to say is that some of us can't say no to their loved one easily, especially if we have money in the bank. For me, it took walking the long walk to the end of the path and then stopping before stepping off the cliff, so to speak.

My Thai reminds me often of how generous I have been and I am sure that when the end of the extroadinary giving ends, acceptance will result, as is the case with most Thais who are so good at accepting what they cannot change.

I really don't accept the promise that once ....is done, he will relax and he won't "suck any more money from me" as prior promises have been made easily and broken just as easily. It is in his wonderful nature, intentions are good, the heart is pure and loving, he "takes care of me wonderfully", is warm and phenomenonlly loving, but none of that has anything to do with the ability to be fiscally responsible and follow through on agreements. TIT and mai pen rai.

I have never been happier, that is worth all of this. I am not complaining since this is really our only problem area. I consider myself blessed and share the foregoing only as a salve for those who are struggling with the same issue.

[The_Eye_Of_Sauron]

You seem to go for Thai lads from a much lower socio-economic group,

(Which we straight men also do ad nauseam here)

You hence become 'Sugar Daddies'

Can't you find more 'Middle Class' sweethearts? The prognosis would be much improved and so would day-to-day life and budgeting.

[The_Eye_Of_Sauron]

ps Prothaiexpat - your patience and tolerance is impressive - but you are being taken for a ride my friend !

I don't thing that this man has a 'wonderful nature' at all. Wake up and smell the coffee - you're being used. A 'long-con' is being worked on you.

[Ijustwannateach]

I tend to find that iron will is necessary in dealing with Thais (of all sexualities and in all situations) if you don't want their charm to result in their taking advantage of you. I don't mean aggression, I just mean that you keep smiling and make it clear what you are willing to do- set boundaries, in other words. In every case where I've seen a farang who couldn't defend his boundaries properly, Thai partners just wound up walking all over them- taking their money, their property, their private space, their time.

I think it has something to do with the way people are raised here. They are either spoiled and expect everyone to be subservient to them, or the are the ones who are subservient. They don't have an "inbetween" mode of relating to others, at least without a lot of experience with foreigners. So if you are not dominating the other partner in what would be considered a rather OTT manner back home, take care that he does not take that role himself.

For the moment, that's why I don't let my guy move in with me- he has part of an apartment with other students at his uni, and that's where I banish him when he gets, um, too obnoxious or insufferable. I don't do that often, and whenever I do the offending behavior is not repeated. I also don't hold it against him- I'm quite a bit older and more mature, and I accept the responsibility for making more of the rules [which is not really something I enjoy, but it has to be done].

Regarding socioeconomics, Saurie, it would take a pretty rich Thai to be on par with many of us here, even lowly teacher that I am (and I'm sure that some of the other posters here are doing far better than me). And when you talk rich Thais, you're talking largely Chinese-Thai for one thing- no thanks, no offense to those who may be reading- and you're almost guaranteed to be with one of those spoiled brats produced by all the subservient folks I was talking about above- and if they're NOT spoiled, then they're likely to be REALLY rich, and thus far out of our social spheres.

"Steven"

P.S. ProThaiXpat, I'm afraid that from your descriptions of your relationship past and present, it seems fairly clear to me, too, that you're letting yourself be fleeced. I'm amazed things would even have gotten to a point where you considered for a moment devoting money earmarked for your vacations to his "needs," where needs means what? What has not been provided for already (a house for his Mom? C'mon!). Surely things would not have gone there without pressure from your partner himself for them to go there, and what kind of partner exerts that kind of pressure? He may have had your collaboration to do so, but he seems far too interested in your money, in what for Thais would be obscene amounts.

[The_Moog]

My wife is perfectly capable of handling a budget. So its not some sort of genetic axiom.

Tomorrow Father-In-Law - an artist- is visiting us, with 4 paintings I have commissioned from him. If they are okay, i'll give him a few thousand baht. First time in 4 years he's got any money from me.

Farang partners here are often from rural/agrarian backgrounds, ..In the case of ProThaiExpat - who is obviously an extremely decent fellow, he has become thoroughly smitten and intoxicated with somone who is a leech, a bloodsucker - and a consummate conman intent on bilking PTE out of as much as he can cheerfully get away with - with a big charming grin still on his face. I felt very sad when I read that he was contemplating forgoing his holiday to visit his family.

Edited February 2, 2005 by The_Moog

[Ijustwannateach]

P.S. to Saur.,

Most of the guys here are *not* really sugar daddies- at least, not the ones I've seen posting on this thread. We may be the better-off partner financially, and help balance out the lower income of our partners, but for the most part our partners are working, studying, and generally having real lives.

"Steven"

[ProThaiExpat]

This is not a defense of anything I have heretofore posted but it should also be known that western relationships between well to do older men and beautiful younger women end up being very expensive for the older man.

I look at the money I have advanced for my Thai to improve his family situation in Issan as sin sot, and we have seen figures of 1 million baht advanced in this fourm. I am far from that figure.

Where I come from and the professional society I lived in, the amount of money I have advanced would not be considered a lot and in fact routine weddings cost a lot more.

If I had been asked by a marriage broker to pay the amount I have given in advance for the "marriage" to my Thai, I would have done it without regret. I am still without regret.

The information I provided was in the nature of a factual basis for my experience Thai's and their approach to their husbands/lovers money, not for any other reason. Since the end of the money trail has been reached, and my willingness is no longer, I have not reached the point where I feel I have been taken advantage of.

I was impressed with IJWT's post regarding methods he has used in this regard. I offered my experience for the same reason. I know if I was "married" to a rich partner with large bank balances and I had family presssure to help improve their lot, I would have a hard time understanding why my rich love whouldn't share, since that sharing would make me and my family very happy, as all gifts should and my rich partner had no need for the money in the bank.

We in the west are so willing to call any poorer partner in a relationshipp a "golddigger" when the poorer partner benefits greatly by the richer partners generosity. If the giving was willingly, why are we so quick to critisize, castigate and call a fool a giving person who is willing to share their good fortune?

[The_Eye_Of_Sauron]

Well, in one post you sounded like 'I'm almost at the end of my tether'.

I think I might have some insight here. I think its a timing-horizon issue

The reason you guys might get incessant wishlists might be cause your paramours think that whilst you may have a long term relationship it might not be LIFELONG.

In that way they want squirrel away $ in order to have a strong future. - a future where you've 1) gone home 2) Gone to a fresher face 3) Deceased.

So I can sort of see it from their side too. I now think its too unequivocal to say that they're mercenary. They want security too.

[The_Eye_Of_Sauron]

I've now read PTEs post on page 1 and i'm now pretty certain that my revised theory is correct.

40 year old partner is too old to be a transitory goldigger- but he is frightened, frightened about a future minus PTE - whom, my intuition tells me is no spring chicken.

Furthermore PTE is loaded.

Solution:

1) Draw up a will specifying what 40 yr old is going to get in the event of PTEs demise. Then he will feel better - that he's going to be secure and happy for his lifetime too.

2) Go to his home town - buy a big concrete burial pagoda at his local wat. Say' - 'We're both going in there one day. Your Mum's ashes too'

My wife's family has a lovely burial pagoda north of Saraburi.

Edited February 2, 2005 by The_Eye_Of_Sauron

[ProThaiExpat]

Well, in one post you sounded like 'I'm almost at the end of my tether'.

I think I might have some insight here. I think its a timing-horizon issue

The reason you guys might get incessant wishlists might be cause your paramours think that whilst you may have a long term relationship it might not be LIFELONG.

In that way they want squirrel away $ in order to have a strong future. - a future where you've 1) gone home 2) Gone to a fresher face 3) Deceased.

So I can sort of see it from their side too. I now think its too unequivocal to say that they're mercenary. They want security too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Now your getting it! and mellowing in the process.

Between PMs and the posts, I may have missed in the post describing my "end of tether" approach as my way "drawing the line" before I felt "taken".

Last year there was a post that went along the line that "You can't blame them for feathering their own nests while making yours so comfortable and filled with love".

With so many falang splitting and leaving Thais in a lurch, it is no wonder they want to build some sort or security of their own so after they have given many years to you, they have something when it is over. Aware of that, I perhaps "protesteth to much". I am happy that I have reached a point where I am comfortable in saying no more but not removing all hope of sharing in the future from what we are able to save from monthly living expenses.

I have decided that I would be playing "victim" if I surendered my annual "leave"trips to the "nest building" cause, and have so advised my love. He loves to travel with me to family or to the U.S. so he was in a dillemma with having to choose with giving it to family or taking the trip. He is relieved that I decided as I did.

Perhaps those who read this post are not all as "in love" and committed as I am so find saying "no" much easier. I have been in my share of relationships including a 10 year marriage and the "war of roses" that followed, so I have been there and done that and now am in the relationship of my lifetime and am working to make it last, three years and counting with not even a blip in sight, unless the money issue becomes paramount.

Those who have suggested that I am being "taken for a ride" and fleeced by my Thai, stay tuned. If your right, when the money stops he should be gone, leaving behind a broken heart. If that doesn't happen, then perhaps we need to try to understand them better and where they are comming from so a common ground can be reached, which is what these postings are all about.

Edited February 2, 2005 by ProThaiExpat

[Ijustwannateach]

I guess I'm not there to see it like you are, ProThai- so I'm not saying that you're wrong. That's just what it looks like, and as our new friend said, you did sound a bit like "and THAT was the last straw!" I'm rather hoping that I'm not right and you guys will live happily ever after- just once burned, twice shy, and all that. You're in a far better position to judge your chances than I am!

"Steven"

[Steve2UK]

Now your getting it! and mellowing in the process.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

First, can I suggest that some posters just take a moment to have at least a second thought about the language they use before they hit the Add Reply button? Fleeced, leech, bloodsucker etc.............. strong stuff to use about a mature (as in grown-up) guy's love of three years standing, don't you think? Would you phrase it that way face to face? All credit to PTE for the way he responds to that kind of sweeping statement; I'm not sure that I would - but then I'm a 54-year old stripling..........

Second, I've been fascinated by this thread. I'm planning to make the permanent move to Thailand later this year - single and not expecting to stay single. Though I've travelled a lot in SE Asia (Thailand, particularly), I still recognise that I have an enormous amount to learn about cultural differences (as if I could ever learn everything). In the various (short/medium term) liaisons/relationships I've experienced in Asia, I've always tried to at least play down the "comes with the territory" deference that I've been accorded as a farang, gweilo, etc - maybe because looking around at some of the farangs who also get this deference rather devalues what I receive (in my mind, at least). I've generally tried to apply a policy of "different but equal"; I recognise that that's bordering on being a lost cause, probably naiive and certainly hard work - and it's very tempting to "go with the flow", particularly when that flow seems to work mainly in my favour.

Third, like PTE, I'm attracted to guys younger than myself - appreciating (enjoying wouldn't always be the right word) the challenges that that throws up....... apart from anything else. When I was 34, I started what became a 3-year relationship with a 21-year old. I was earning a lot and had little time; he was earning very little and had plenty of time. Didn't seem to be a problem most of the time - when he moved in with me after a few months, he generally looked after the house and I generally looked after the money; so - a "different but equal" balance trading time for money (as I say, most of the time - not all). When we were deciding what we'd like to do, I did my level best to make sure that things he wanted to do got equal play with things I wanted to do; after all, wasn't this part of the difference that I appreciated learning from? Very rarely did I come close to exercising the veto that my position effectively gave me. The real problem came when he decided that we ought to move - buy another place and make a new start (subtext - start living in truly "our" place rather than him living in "mine"). I as good as said "OK, I've got my half of the deposit - have you got yours?". How right or wrong I was to say it has haunted me ever since. We broke up for other reasons some time after that, but it was maybe symptomatic of the flaw in my approach and I'm not sure I'd say the same thing now. As has been mentioned in the thread already, I do believe it has a lot to do with individual confidence in the joint future.......

So, the question I'd like to raise (broadening some of what's been said already in this thread) is: how close to something like "different but equal" do you think it's generally possible to get in a farang-Thai relationship? My sense is that the farang having the lead role is almost inevitable - that it's practically inherent given the material, cultural and (mostly) age differences between the two partners. And there it is - I use the word "partner"; in virtually all the posts I see on this forum (and I don't just mean the gay section), I almost never see anyone say "partner" in reference to their "Thai", "tee rak", "bf", "gf".................

[The_Eye_Of_Sauron]

In Farang/Thai relationships, the farang will take the dominant role 99 times out of 100, - by virtue of economic factors, age or a variety of other reasons.

...and having a dominant partner is GOOD for a relationship. Both my parents are Alpha types and they never stopped arguing because neither one would back down.

(ironic then that I am not an Alpha type myself).

What your Thai partner would like - and really appreciate, is if you HAI KIAD them. What does this translate as?

It kind of means - be courteous, honour their individuality, allow them some dignity, some free will.

...even if you remain in charge. (and they do dig it when you show inner strength when you are being the Boss)

For example

Consulation on decisions. (or explain why you've made a decision on a key issue)

Don't shout at them in public even if they mess up.

Respect and value their opinion.

Don't control them. Say 'up to you' sometimes.

Thai/Thai relationships don't often HAI KIAD the junior partner, so they love it when a Farang shows this. Farangs find extending such little courtesies far easier.

HAI KIAD !

[Steve2UK]

In Farang/Thai relationships, the farang will take the dominant role 99 times out of 100, -  by virtue of economic factors, age or a variety of other reasons.

...and having a dominant partner is GOOD for a relationship. Both my parents are Alpha types and they never stopped arguing because neither one would back down.

(ironic then that I am not an Alpha type myself).

What your Thai partner would like - and really appreciate, is if you HAI KIAD them. What does this translate as?

It kind of means - be courteous, honour their individuality, allow them some dignity, some free will.

...even if you remain in charge. (and they do dig it when you show inner strength when you are being the Boss)

For example

Consulation on decisions. (or explain why you've made a decision on a key issue)

Don't shout at them in public even if they mess up.

Respect and value their opinion.

Don't control them. Say 'up to you' sometimes.

Thai/Thai relationships don't often HAI KIAD the junior partner, so they love it when a Farang shows this. Farangs find extending such little courtesies far easier.

HAI KIAD !

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah, yes - those three little words that have struck fear into me so often......... "up to you"

Your definition of HAI KIAD feels spot on to my way of thinking - would you go as far as to include the Thai taking (some) "responsibility" with it?