More Rallies 'as Soon As Decree Ends'

[jayboy]

Insight on local press coverage from IPS

THAILAND:

With Censorship, Thais Turn to Websites and Foreign Media

Marwaan Macan-Markar

BANGKOK, Apr 19 (IPS) - When the Thai government imposed an emergency law cracking down on rampaging red-shirted protesters on the streets of Bangkok, the military, in combat gear, was not its only weapon. The state’s censors were given liberty to silence critical media.

By the weekend, this climate of censorship had spread beyond the capital and five neighbouring provinces where the emergency decree is still in force. Community radio stations sympathetic to the anti-government ‘red-shirts’ in northern and northeastern provinces were raided by the police and closed down.

The information and technology ministry flexed its muscles, too, ordering Internet service providers to shut down 67 websites. That number may grow, warns a media rights activist, since "websites that were critical but not sympathetic to the ‘red-shirts’ have also been targeted."

The four-month-old coalition government, led by the Democrat Party, justifies such measures to prevent more violence and mayhem on the streets as was witnessed from Apr. 13 through 14 in the capital. Clashes between angry ‘red-shirts’ and troops at a number of street corners resulted in over 100 people being injured and reportedly two deaths.

"The radio stations were closed because they were being used to incite violence," Buranaj Smutharakas, Democrat Party spokesman, told journalists. "The right to free speech ends when it is being used to call for violence."

"Although the government has brought to an end the ‘red rampage’ in Bangkok, the situation remains fragile," he added. "The government’s major efforts are to prevent [‘red shirt’] members from resorting to terrorism and [creating an] armed resistance movement."

Yet the act of censorship - beginning on Apr. 13 with the shutting down of the satellite news broadcaster ‘D Station’, the mouthpiece of the ‘red shirts’ - has inadvertently exposed the bias that grips local media. Mainstream print and broadcast media were not censored - they had portrayed the Democrat Party-led coalition in a positive light.

"The newspapers were not under pressure from the government. They chose to do it because they like the Democrats and their backers, hate the reds," a senior television journalist told IPS on the condition of anonymity. "So they have not to worry about censorship."

The mainstream television stations were under some pressure, he revealed. "My boss was told by a powerful person not to run pictures damaging to the military or to the government."

A respected media analyst faults the mainstream media for such one-sided coverage - where little effort was made to understand and explain why tens of thousands of ‘red shirts’ from the provinces and the capital responded to the protest call by the organisation leading the anti-government movement, the United Front of Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD).

"Reports about UDD rallies were not published, but when they were, it was more the negative aspect of the rallies," says Ubonrat Siriyuvasak, professor of communications at Bangkok’s Chulalongkorn University. "The media needs to cover all colours of Thailand’s politics because that is their responsibility to society. They have to try and be professional and neutral."

"The biased coverage by the mainstream media has made UDD supporters grow very unhappy and frustrated," she added in an interview. "These marginalised people have been left with little choice but to create their own alternative media space through community radio and websites on the Internet."

This, however, is not the first time where the alternative media has been a target of censorship, while the mainstream media remained untouched. Over 300 community and local radio stations were silenced by military operatives days after the powerful Thai army staged a coup in September 2006, ousting from power then-Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

"All northern community radio stations have been temporarily closed down after some were found to have provoked disunity among people and created misunderstanding about Tuesday’s military coup," the Bangkok Post, Thailand’s largest English-language paper, reported during the week of the country’s 18th putsch. "Community radios are now seen as a significant threat to the [junta’s] authority as they could be used by supporters of the ousted prime minister to incite public resentment against the [junta]."

The current round of censorship that targets the ‘red shirt’ media has parallels with the media policy of the country’s last military regime. Many of those who have been silenced were openly supportive of Thaksin, now living in exile as a fugitive for breaking conflict of interest laws, and wanted for corruption charges.

But the silenced radio stations and websites also aired views that called on the coalition government to dissolve the parliament and call fresh elections, attacked the military leadership and the conservative bureaucracy, and demanded that senior advisers to the kingdom’s revered monarch resign for their alleged role in the 2006 coup.

They were views that proved too much for the mainstream media to stomach. And the street violence engineered by the ‘red shirts’ a week ago - as part of a call by the UDD to stage a "revolution" on behalf of the poor - appears to have been the last straw for the Bangkok-based media powerhouses.

Newspapers responded with screaming headlines, gloating coverage, and shrill commentary at the failed ‘revolution’ of the ‘red shirts’. The television stations largely marched to the same tune.

‘Red shirts’ have been seething at the "one-sided" coverage of the mainstream media. "The press in Thailand is with the government. It is like a business partnership," said a 47-year-old resident of Bangkok who gave his name as Somchai. "They have let us down. They cannot be called a national media."

"We cannot trust the Thai journalists, because what we know is not reported," added Salukjit Sangmuang, a businesswoman, who, like Somchai, had joined some 500 ‘red shirts’ at an open field in the historic part of the capital on Apr. 14 to come to terms with the defeat their movement suffered at the hands of the combat-ready troops. "We depend on websites and foreign media for the news."

This news blackout has even brought out a controversial figure to help get the story of the ‘red shirts’ on the Internet: Lt. Sunisa Lertpakawat, who has written two books that are fawning accounts of the fugitive Thaksin, despite her being an officer serving in the military.

"What I have seen on Thai television about the ‘red shirts’ is not the truth. A lot of incidents have not been shown," said the 34-year-old during a pause from video recording a scene of angry, weeping ‘red shirts’ at Sanam Luang, an open field surrounded by ancient temples and a palace. "The people are angry, because what the newspapers and television have said about them is not true."

(END/2009)

[samgrowth]

Nakhon Ratchasima redshirts to rally next week

Nakon Ratchasima red-shirted protesters will hold a mass rally on April 30 but will not wearing red shirts, its leader Chalong Sangratmekin said Monday.

His group made the decision during a meeting of its core leaders from 32 districts on April 19 in the province's Wang Nam Khieu district, Chalong said.

Chalong said, " We'll improve our strategies by no longer wearing in red and we won't make any troubles.

Its core leaders will be given pamphlets, documents, VCDs and still photographs so that they would tell correct information to our supporters in the province.

- THE NATION -

Why not wear yellow and demand Mark to step down.

Do you think PAD will sue UDD for copying their color?

[samgrowth]

April 2009

After the Uprising

by Thitinan Pongsudhirak

Posted Apirl 19, 2008

Thailand's contested democracy in the eyes of the UDD and beyond means that Establishment prerogatives and preferences have carried the day for too long.

Having overcome an ominous uprising, Mr. Abhisit and his backers still appear reluctant to respect and recognize the claims and grievances of the red shirts. The pro-establishment bias in Thai society runs deep. Most movers and shakers have an incentive to see the Abhisit government succeed and to see Thailand move forward in a direction consistent with establishment interests. They heard the reds' noises but they discounted them on various grounds from gullibility and stupidity to financial opportunism. They resort to the comfort and convenience of seeing Mr. Thaksin as the sole force behind the reds. Now that Mr. Thaksin has been further disgraced and discredited during the red shirts' downfall, they will be tempted to conclude that all's normal, that the brief sound and fury seen in Thailand was just a passing nuisance.

But the reds represented more than Mr. Thaksin. Their quest for the will of the majority to shine in a genuine democracy was real and relentless. Their efforts came to naught this time, but the anti-establishment sentiments behind them are likely to simmer and fester until they find an outlet somewhere else sometime down the road. The undercurrents against establishment forces are deep and wide in Thailand. The lack of recognition and accommodation will make them pent-up and potent.

Thailand's ongoing transformation should not lead it to replicate the experience of Nepal, as the institution of the monarchy is integral to Thai history and identity. Nor does it want to follow in the footsteps of the Philippines, whose periodic people's power movements brought neither political stability nor economic vibrancy. And it should not turn the clock all the way back to end up in comparison to Burma's military dictatorship. Indonesia's democratic transition after decades of autocratic rule offers hope. Somewhere out there lies Thailand's organic and optimal longer-term destination.

1. Discussion or reporting about the establishment should not be allow in ThaiVisa.

2. Most Thai people do not know what happen to "the experience of Nepal". There is a news black-out in Thailand, and it should stay that way. Please we warn that anyone who speard the knowledge about "the experience of Nepal" are deemed to want to remove the power of the monachy, and will be charged for LM.

[Plus]

This "Thaksin as bogeyman" approach is just what the army want. It's a welcome distraction from their incompetence and gerrymandering. Whilst people see them as protectors against Thaksin, they are not anylysing the situation on the ground correctly ie. this an ongoing coup that started in 2006, not a return to democracy.

At no time have they relinquished control, they have all their appointees in place ruling according to a constitution they made. A constitution that nobody outside their elite circles had any input into, nor one that anybody that is not of their ilk will will be able to influence.

<deleted> are you talking about? What military appointees? Whose incompetence? Are you aware that we had four cabinet changes since 2007 elections? What military appointees?

The goal of Democracy is not to isolate anybody. Extremists attract marginal votes from marginal supporters, thats democracy. After all the judgements, bans, disbanding of parties - but of course not the (anti)-Democratic party, the mass propaganda and bans on radio stations, etc, Thai Rak Thai in its third guise in as many years still attracts enough of the population to win a general election. If, big if mind, they are allowed to stand in a free election.

Let them win, by all means. Thaksin, however, is a fugitive form justice with another dozen lawsuits in the waiting. He can't run, he can't win, no matter how many people like him - he MUST NOT be placed above the law.

This, however, is not the first time where the alternative media has been a target of censorship, while the mainstream media remained untouched. Over 300 community and local radio stations were silenced by military operatives days after the powerful Thai army staged a coup in September 2006, ousting from power then-Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

Oh, another newbie. The first wave of sensorship was when Thaksin used carrots and sticks to co-opt local radios. He threatened to close them all down for being unconstitutional, them made them run advertising for local businesses, and that was the end of their independence.

Most Thai people do not know what happen to "the experience of Nepal". There is a news black-out in Thailand,

Care to back that up? I mean that news about "Nepal experience" were banned in Thailand.

[LawnGnome]

My wife (relaying to me) had an interesting conversation with my housekeeper. She lives in a small village near the Cambodian border. Before the riots, this village could be considered a "red supporting" village. She said that after the red's riots, the attitude of the village was almost a complete transformation. They had gone from being tacit to active red supporters to ardent opponents. I think it serves to illustrate the Thai's deep hatred of violence (culturally and socially speaking). She also commented that the young people of the village were going around hitting each other with sticks, as if immitating the red shirt actions (at least, this is how the older villagers interpreted it).

Thaksin really screwed himself good last week, didn't he?

[plachon]

My wife (relaying to me) had an interesting conversation with my housekeeper. She lives in a small village near the Cambodian border. Before the riots, this village could be considered a "red supporting" village. She said that after the red's riots, the attitude of the village was almost a complete transformation. They had gone from being tacit to active red supporters to ardent opponents. I think it serves to illustrate the Thai's deep hatred of violence (culturally and socially speaking). She also commented that the young people of the village were going around hitting each other with sticks, as if immitating the red shirt actions (at least, this is how the older villagers interpreted it).

Thaksin really screwed himself good last week, didn't he?

Your wife should be thankful it was only sticks...............last time I was down in that part of the country (Sisaket border village in April 07), the youths were riding round on bikes trying to hit each other with knives. And I mean great big machetes. Saw about a dozen bikes, some with pillion passengers on screaming down the road going the opposite direction to us, looking like they were going to war. Ironically that was just a few days before Songkran as well.

We went to the much more peaceful and civilised Siem Reap for our New Year celebration. No water wars, no gang warfare on the streets.

[LawnGnome]

My wife (relaying to me) had an interesting conversation with my housekeeper. She lives in a small village near the Cambodian border. Before the riots, this village could be considered a "red supporting" village. She said that after the red's riots, the attitude of the village was almost a complete transformation. They had gone from being tacit to active red supporters to ardent opponents. I think it serves to illustrate the Thai's deep hatred of violence (culturally and socially speaking). She also commented that the young people of the village were going around hitting each other with sticks, as if immitating the red shirt actions (at least, this is how the older villagers interpreted it).

Thaksin really screwed himself good last week, didn't he?

Your wife should be thankful it was only sticks...............last time I was down in that part of the country (Sisaket border village in April 07), the youths were riding round on bikes trying to hit each other with knives. And I mean great big machetes. Saw about a dozen bikes, some with pillion passengers on screaming down the road going the opposite direction to us, looking like they were going to war. Ironically that was just a few days before Songkran as well.

We went to the much more peaceful and civilised Siem Reap for our New Year celebration. No water wars, no gang warfare on the streets.

I should point out the story was my housekeepers. My wife was only translating it for me.

[chrislarsson]

To the ones who hates Thaksin so much. Do u really believe u hate him because what he his done, and not because the of the propaganda campaign started against him?

I didn't see this hate until beginning of 2005. And until then charges were always about conflict-of-interest corruption. That seems to hold still today as well...as the court never managed to get him on anything else than the land sales on Ratchada. Many ppl seem to be upset about the sales of Shin Corporation, but nobody can explain what was wrong with it, and if they can, they get the facts completely wrong.

Why not list the crimes he committed, and then let's see how many can be backed up with facts.

Edited April 21, 2009 by chrislarsson

[quiksilva]

Yes I dislike him for what he has done. He did some good things whilst in power but these were IMO outweighed by what he did wrong. No propaganda necessary.

I was disgusted that he could even become PM in the first place, that someone who so obviously concealing his assets (remember his billionaire driver and maid?), that showed the very first sign that this was not the man to lead this country.

The fact that he ordered the extra judicial killing of 2,275 people who were denied their human rights by a bullet to the head. Despite what they may or may not have done (we will never know the truth of it now) they had rights just like anyone else, yet he saw fit to order the executions of almost as many as the terrorists killed in New York in 2001 (2,974). Later investigations concluded that more than half of them (1,400) had no links to drugs. Nice guy huh?

The fact that he intimidated the media (suing BKK Post for billions) for criticising his abuses of power, and highlighting corruption scandals and problems at the airport (runways, bomb scanner etc)

He has been tried and convicted of the land case. This should not be trivialised. He was the Head of State <deleted>, he should be held to a higher degree of accountability, and yet he abused his position for personal gain and in doing so committed a crime against this country. Lets not mince words, he is a fugitive. Plain and simple.

He was also found guilty of malfeasance for obstructing competition by imposing an excise tax on telecom operators.

Then there are the cases that are still outstanding, including the use of state funds to buy rubber saplings, etc.

His sale of Shin was legal, no issue with that per se but he used a legal loophole, if he was any other businessman people would look over it but he was the head of state, and as such should set a better example.

Edited April 21, 2009 by quiksilva

[LawnGnome]

To the ones who hates Thaksin so much. Do u really believe u hate him because what he his done, and not because the of the propaganda campaign started against him?

I didn't see this hate until beginning of 2005. And until then charges were always about conflict-of-interest corruption. That seems to hold still today as well...as the court never managed to get him on anything else than the land sales on Ratchada. Many ppl seem to be upset about the sales of Shin Corporation, but nobody can explain what was wrong with it, and if they can, they get the facts completely wrong.

Why not list the crimes he committed, and then let's see how many can be backed up with facts.

Oh Yawn - Siricha John, would you care to entertain this gentleman's request.... Im sure you've got it handy.

[Insight]

To the ones who hates Thaksin so much. Do u really believe u hate him because what he his done, and not because the of the propaganda campaign started against him?

I didn't see this hate until beginning of 2005. And until then charges were always about conflict-of-interest corruption. That seems to hold still today as well...as the court never managed to get him on anything else than the land sales on Ratchada. Many ppl seem to be upset about the sales of Shin Corporation, but nobody can explain what was wrong with it, and if they can, they get the facts completely wrong.

Why not list the crimes he committed, and then let's see how many can be backed up with facts.

When I first moved here in 2001 my g/f at the time said "Thaksin is good for the country because he has plenty of money and doesn't need to any much more" - first alarm bells.

Next, his attempt to buy Liverpool FC when PM. Then the stories of massive vote buying, followed by the intimidation of the press (getting the so-called NCCC to investigate Nation journalists, followed by the BKK Post cracks-in-the-runways affairs), the stories coming back from people involved with companies applying for state contracts, only to discover that the contracts they were bidding for had already been selected. Gloating about paying no tax on selling AIS, his attempts at silencing the critics from the PAD, his inability to stand down to help bring unity, the blatantly staged shows of support (remember that guy walking up to him and hugging him after he'd been to see the king?).

Are we up to 2005 yet?

[hammered]

Reconciliation is another word for red victory. Having failed to spark a revolution, they want to achieve exactly the same goals under the name of reconciliation.

What exactly it would reconcile is anyone's guess.

Perhaps if they allow only politicians who sworn off Thaksin, perhaps that would be acceptable to yellows. Maybe that's the goal - to isolate the die hards.

This "Thaksin as bogeyman" approach is just what the army want. It's a welcome distraction from their incompetence and gerrymandering. Whilst people see them as protectors against Thaksin, they are not anylysing the situation on the ground correctly ie. this an ongoing coup that started in 2006, not a return to democracy.

At no time have they relinquished control, they have all their appointees in place ruling according to a constitution they made. A constitution that nobody outside their elite circles had any input into, nor one that anybody that is not of their ilk will will be able to influence.

The goal of Democracy is not to isolate anybody. Extremists attract marginal votes from marginal supporters, thats democracy. After all the judgements, bans, disbanding of parties - but of course not the (anti)-Democratic party, the mass propaganda and bans on radio stations, etc, Thai Rak Thai in its third guise in as many years still attracts enough of the population to win a general election. If, big if mind, they are allowed to stand in a free election.

An interesting post today suggested that the future of the reds and yellows may lie together in a joint front against the ruling elites, corrupt general and police all of whom seem to have escaped from high minded purges.

Any westerners who are not sure who runs this country should try this. Send your wife out to set up a small market stall anywhere in Bangkok. Just do it and see who starts coming round for money. Find out why all the pavements have small markings on them, even outside existing businesses whose shop frontage they completely obscure. Walk round and note the same sets of "ladies" in exactly their alloted space each night. It's not as random and chaotic as you think.

If you are a thai woman or have a thai wife, dress sexy and walk down pattaya beach as my wife once mistakenly did. The danger is not from Falang sex tourists, its from the "organisers". Think you are safe opposite Soi 9 (Police Station).... try it.

The PAD seem to have aligned themselves with the ruling classes as a sop to their ego of thinking themselves above the rural poor. In effect thinking themselves as a part of this class when if fact they are nowhere close, in terms of money or power. When they realise how little they have and how little they will be allowed to run the country as puppets of the Army, they may need to think again. They need to realise that middle class here is probably on a par with unemployment benefits in the west... at best.

There is currently a three way split in Thai society, not the us and them that PAD see and I think there is desire for change throughout the country, apart from this ruling elite. Abhisit is not offering it and will not be allowed to disrupt the business as usual attitude of those above him.

Even PAD are not blaming Thaksin for having Sondhi shot.

As a general comment on the PAD leaders that may be true, but it isnt true for Sondhi who has been scathing of the military and elite and claims "he" is a spokesperson for the middle classes. That could set off all kinds of conspiracy theories over Sondhi, the created yellows and then Sondhi's liberation of the movement from its controllers and the attack on him.

The reds and yellows split is a convenient one for the powerful on both sides and does divide on extremely emotive issues those who history tells us should naturally be united.

[hammered]

If you want my opinion, Abhisit is wedged between a brick wall and a brick wall. It is his escape plan to somehow escape this situation in a parliamentary fashion.

Although he is being used as the stepping stone for others, he is now hoping to use others for his political survival before he gets duly submerged.

But that of course is just my opinion.

I tend to agree with this. Whether he will make it is in doubt although if he does it could be better than the alternatives. He will need some new and probably surprising allies to achieve this and will also face opposition from within what is assumed to be his camp.

So far he has survived what he wasnt meant to survive so his political skills and support may be a bit better than many gave him credit for which means he has a fighting chance.

[chrislarsson]

To the ones who hates Thaksin so much. Do u really believe u hate him because what he his done, and not because the of the propaganda campaign started against him?

I didn't see this hate until beginning of 2005. And until then charges were always about conflict-of-interest corruption. That seems to hold still today as well...as the court never managed to get him on anything else than the land sales on Ratchada. Many ppl seem to be upset about the sales of Shin Corporation, but nobody can explain what was wrong with it, and if they can, they get the facts completely wrong.

Why not list the crimes he committed, and then let's see how many can be backed up with facts.

Next, his attempt to buy Liverpool FC when PM. - This may be political stunt, but hardly a crime

Then the stories of massive vote buying, - Aren't all parties into vote buying?

followed by the intimidation of the press (getting the so-called NCCC to investigate Nation journalists, followed by the BKK Post cracks-in-the-runways affairs), - All politicians hate the press, but sure this is not good. Cracks-in-the-runways affair was grossly exaggerated by the press though. No airlines ever complained, and the repair costs were peanuts.

the stories coming back from people involved with companies applying for state contracts, only to discover that the contracts they were bidding for had already been selected. - The land sale on Rathcada is one. Are there proof of any more?

Gloating about paying no tax on selling AIS, - I would like to understand this one. What does the tax code for capital gains on stocks say in Thailand?

his attempts at silencing the critics from the PAD, - PAD supported staging the coup. What PM would not try to fight a group like this?

his inability to stand down to help bring unity, - Isn't that what Abhisit is doing right now? should every single PM resign every time there is a minority wanting him to go?

the blatantly staged shows of support (remember that guy walking up to him and hugging him after he'd been to see the king?). - This is politics and this is what politicians do.

Are we up to 2005 yet?

We are there. Not a very convincing list so far, for someone who is compared to Hitler by people holding the highest offices in the country.

[TAWP]

his attempts at silencing the critics from the PAD, -

PAD supported staging the coup. What PM would not try to fight a group like this?

So you wouldn't protest of they silenced UDD in any ways possible now?

(And yes, please do ignore that the press freedom index sank like a rock under Thaksins rule.)

[Insight]

To the ones who hates Thaksin so much. Do u really believe u hate him because what he his done, and not because the of the propaganda campaign started against him?

I didn't see this hate until beginning of 2005. And until then charges were always about conflict-of-interest corruption. That seems to hold still today as well...as the court never managed to get him on anything else than the land sales on Ratchada. Many ppl seem to be upset about the sales of Shin Corporation, but nobody can explain what was wrong with it, and if they can, they get the facts completely wrong.

Why not list the crimes he committed, and then let's see how many can be backed up with facts.

Next, his attempt to buy Liverpool FC when PM. - This may be political stunt, but hardly a crime

What's the PM of a country getting involved with a football team for?

Then the stories of massive vote buying, - Aren't all parties into vote buying?

No excuse. By all accounts I've heard Thaksin took it to new levels.

followed by the intimidation of the press (getting the so-called NCCC to investigate Nation journalists, followed by the BKK Post cracks-in-the-runways affairs), - All politicians hate the press, but sure this is not good. Cracks-in-the-runways affair was grossly exaggerated by the press though. No airlines ever complained, and the repair costs were peanuts.

Airlines complaining and/or costs really doesn't have much to do with my original point - press interference/intimidation

the stories coming back from people involved with companies applying for state contracts, only to discover that the contracts they were bidding for had already been selected. - The land sale on Rathcada is one. Are there proof of any more?

I have contacts who were involved in the bidding for state contracts. Only after the bidding it was revealed that they never stood a chance in the first place - the whole process was a sham. I'm being sparse on details to protect those involved.

Gloating about paying no tax on selling AIS, - I would like to understand this one. What does the tax code for capital gains on stocks say in Thailand?

Harp on about the law as much as you like. In the eyes of many this was a massive crime, and one done by the so-called leader of a country.

his attempts at silencing the critics from the PAD, - PAD supported staging the coup. What PM would not try to fight a group like this?

The PAD wanted Thaksin to stand down if I recall correctly. The coup was the answer from the military after Thaksin refused

his inability to stand down to help bring unity, - Isn't that what Abhisit is doing right now? should every single PM resign every time there is a minority wanting him to go?

Lots of people in this "minority" were very relieved that Thaksin had gone in the immediate aftermath of the coup - remember the phrase "the flower coup" ?

the blatantly staged shows of support (remember that guy walking up to him and hugging him after he'd been to see the king?). - This is politics and this is what politicians do.

Still doesn't make it acceptable

Are we up to 2005 yet?

We are there. Not a very convincing list so far, for someone who is compared to Hitler by people holding the highest offices in the country.

That's entirely your opinion. You wanted to know why people would dislike pre-2005 and my reasons (which are more than adequate in the eyes of most) are above.

Edited April 21, 2009 by Insight

[chrislarsson]

his attempts at silencing the critics from the PAD, -

PAD supported staging the coup. What PM would not try to fight a group like this?

So you wouldn't protest of they silenced UDD in any ways possible now?

(And yes, please do ignore that the press freedom index sank like a rock under Thaksins rule.)

I think the important thing is that PAD and UDD are being treated equally.

Here is the Press Freedom Index for Thailand 2002 - 2008 (the lower the number the greater freedom):

2002 - 22.75

2003 - 19.76

2004 - 14.00

2005 - 28.00

2006 - 33.50

2007 - 53.50

2008 - 34.50

If you know that it dropped like a rock under Thaksin, maybe you can fill in the numbers before 2002. It would also be a pleasant surprise if you can actually back up your opinion with facts :-)

[Plus]

Before 2000 elections Thaksin was gloating on TV how he smartly invested in Alpine Golf resort, buying it off Snoh.

Later it was discovered that the land on which it was built was donated to the temple by a dying woman, eventually it ended in Thaksin's hands.

Later it was discovered that it wasn't in Thaksin's hands at all - it was in his maid and driver's names.

Later it was discovered that Thaksin had no idea that for politicians hiding his assets through proxies was illegal, and he cried about honest mistake.

That did it for me.

And then there was a small stuff, like buying ITV in the run up to the elections, to ensure "proper" coverage, illegally investigating critical journalists (not by NCCC, and by Anti Money Laundering Office).

Buying Liverpool wasn't illegal, it was just shameless - he wanted to buy it with public money, not his own.

The death of Shipping Moo just as he was about to testify against Thaksin's company in a tax evasion case was blood chilling - this guy won't stop at nothing.

Forcing goverment loan to Burma with a condition that they use the money only on his company services was shameless.

Converting excise taxes that boosted his company market value by tens of billions of baht was there, too.

And the endless hubs hubs hubs hubs hubs.

Check pre 2005 thread in this very forum - the maniac was all over the place. All current cases, about a dozen of them, steam from pre-2005 offences, there's nothing new there. It's justuce finally served, not a result of propaganda campaign.

[animatic]

To the ones who hates Thaksin so much. Do u really believe u hate him because what he his done, and not because the of the propaganda campaign started against him?

I didn't see this hate until beginning of 2005. And until then charges were always about conflict-of-interest corruption. That seems to hold still today as well...as the court never managed to get him on anything else than the land sales on Ratchada. Many ppl seem to be upset about the sales of Shin Corporation, but nobody can explain what was wrong with it, and if they can, they get the facts completely wrong.

Why not list the crimes he committed, and then let's see how many can be backed up with facts.

The crimes are listed many times over.In TV and other places too, no sense in being redundant.

As to 'when' active hate of Thaksin came into play, well different times for different people.

I was growing from a Thaksin Fan to Deep Distrust during 2005, the more I learned of him

and the more I heard his words in quotes, the less he seemed a good choice for a leader.

During 2006 his decision making deteriorated MARKEDLY, and so did his public quoted pronouncements.

No need to list them, but it was clear. He was not acting right, a discernible change.

I had sympathy when he was ousted from position as "Care Taker Prime Minister".

But not a lot. I figured someone closer to him had read the same signs of instability

and THAT was what forced the actions against hiom staying in the Temp control position he was in.

Again he was NOT an elected politician when ousted, because he had called a snap election

and then his party screwed it up for him. He was no more than Caretaker awaiting a new election.

But after his repeated lies about quiting politics coupled to the obvious attempts to CONTROL politics,

Via Samak and Somchai, and then his skipping on a very simple charge, that he could have cakewalked through in jail,

it became obvious he was not stable and not good for the country.

The more you learn of the man the less savory a dish he becomes.

Hate maybe too strong a word for this, but thinking he is dangerous for Thailand

and making efforts to stymy an obvious propaganda campaign waged INSIDE TV

aimed at manipulating OUR fahang minds, I decided he doesn't deserve sympathy at all.

Added this to most of the comments just above about

various 'in court at the moment' abuses of power.

It took NO PROPAGANDA from Yellow to start disliking him.

Just observation and the desire for Thailand to be

in competent and less avaricious, self-serving hands.

Edited April 21, 2009 by animatic

[LawnGnome]

To the ones who hates Thaksin so much. Do u really believe u hate him because what he his done, and not because the of the propaganda campaign started against him?

I didn't see this hate until beginning of 2005. And until then charges were always about conflict-of-interest corruption. That seems to hold still today as well...as the court never managed to get him on anything else than the land sales on Ratchada. Many ppl seem to be upset about the sales of Shin Corporation, but nobody can explain what was wrong with it, and if they can, they get the facts completely wrong.

Why not list the crimes he committed, and then let's see how many can be backed up with facts.

The crimes are listed many times over.In TV and other places too, no sense in being redundant.

As to 'when' active hate of Thaksin came into play, well different times for different people.

I was growing from a Thaksin Fan to Deep Distrust during 2005, the more I learned of him

and the more I heard his words in quotes, the less he seemed a good choice for a leader.

During 2006 his decision making deteriorated MARKEDLY, and so did his public quoted pronouncements.

No need to list them, but it was clear. He was not acting right, a discernible change.

I had sympathy when he was ousted from position as "Care Taker Prime Minister".

But not a lot. I figured someone closer to him had read the same signs of instability

and THAT was what forced the actions against hiom staying in the Temp control position he was in.

Again he was NOT an elected politician when ousted, because he had called a snap election

and then his party screwed it up for him. He was no more than Caretaker awaiting a new election.

But after his repeated lies about quiting politics coupled to the obvious attempts to CONTROL politics,

Via Samak and Somchai, and then his skipping on a very simple charge, that he could have cakewalked through in jail,

it became obvious he was not stable and not good for the country.

The more you learn of the man the less savory a dish he becomes.

Hate maybe too strong a word for this, but thinking he is dangerous for Thailand

and making efforts to stymy an obvious propaganda campaign waged INSIDE TV

aimed at manipulating OUR fahang minds, I decided he doesn't deserve sympathy at all.

Added this to most of the comments just above about

various 'in court at the moment' abuses of power.

It took NO PROPAGANDA from Yellow to start disliking him.

Just observation and the desire for Thailand to be

in competent and less avaricious, self-serving hands.

I would echo all of those thoughts. My hate only began to form in the past year, when Thaksin's despicable side showed itself in full force. The greed, blatant manipulation, lies, the call for children to come to the protests! And what happened at the protests. We talked about that for 2 days, but then the violence started and we left the topic. Remember, Thakins pulled his family out, and encouraged other, more expendible people to come and participate? I have no patience for that kind of depravity. He is no better than a dead dog to me.

[Old Man River]

This is a long article on Thanong's blog on the current situation. While I am sure Bangkok Pundit and Fonzi (Thailand Jumped the Shark) will have a field day picking it apart, it is well worth a read.

http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/thanong/2009/04/21/entry-1

Politically I agree with much that Thanong says. Economically, I disagree with what he is leading up to.

[lannarebirth]

This is a long article on Thanong's blog on the current situation. While I am sure Bangkok Pundit and Fonzi (Thailand Jumped the Shark) will have a field day picking it apart, it is well worth a read.

http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/thanong/2009/04/21/entry-1

Politically I agree with much that Thanong says. Economically, I disagree with what he is leading up to.

Seemingly, in garnering a 2 out of 3 factions alliance, a Red/Yellow sans Thaksin and "elite" baggage would be preferable for the future of the Kingdom. Is it at all possible?

[Old Man River]

This is a long article on Thanong's blog on the current situation. While I am sure Bangkok Pundit and Fonzi (Thailand Jumped the Shark) will have a field day picking it apart, it is well worth a read.

http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/thanong/2009/04/21/entry-1

Politically I agree with much that Thanong says. Economically, I disagree with what he is leading up to.

Seemingly, in garnering a 2 out of 3 factions alliance, a Red/Yellow sans Thaksin and "elite" baggage would be preferable for the future of the Kingdom. Is it at all possible?

That is the THB 76 billion question. At face, it wouldn't look like it, but then I guess anything is possible these days.

[sbk]

Posts have been deleted. Discussion of HM the King is not allowed

[plachon]

My wife (relaying to me) had an interesting conversation with my housekeeper. She lives in a small village near the Cambodian border. Before the riots, this village could be considered a "red supporting" village. She said that after the red's riots, the attitude of the village was almost a complete transformation. They had gone from being tacit to active red supporters to ardent opponents. I think it serves to illustrate the Thai's deep hatred of violence (culturally and socially speaking). She also commented that the young people of the village were going around hitting each other with sticks, as if immitating the red shirt actions (at least, this is how the older villagers interpreted it).

Thaksin really screwed himself good last week, didn't he?

Your wife should be thankful it was only sticks...............last time I was down in that part of the country (Sisaket border village in April 07), the youths were riding round on bikes trying to hit each other with knives. And I mean great big machetes. Saw about a dozen bikes, some with pillion passengers on screaming down the road going the opposite direction to us, looking like they were going to war. Ironically that was just a few days before Songkran as well.

We went to the much more peaceful and civilised Siem Reap for our New Year celebration. No water wars, no gang warfare on the streets.

I should point out the story was my housekeepers. My wife was only translating it for me.

Thanks for the clarification LG.

Just going back to the last line of your previous post once more, I'd say that while Thaksin certainly didn't do himself any favours by his open call for revolution over Songkran, he screwed his erstwhile supporters, their kids and the nation of Thailand far more than he screwed himself. How tough can it be calling yourself "poor" and eeking a living off $US 5 million a year, while flying around in a private jet to your next exotic destination?

Oh yes, one other thing that furthers my earlier suspicions about where Head's sympathies lay and why his reporting was so biased and distorted. Did you notice the mention in Nick Nostitz's NM article about Head offering to lend Nostitz a camera after it packed up. Seems that Nostitz was another trusted source of the "Truth Today" for Head's pieces from the front line balcony.

Edited April 21, 2009 by plachon

[faranginexile]

To the ones who hates Thaksin so much. Do u really believe u hate him because what he his done, and not because the of the propaganda campaign started against him?

I didn't see this hate until beginning of 2005. And until then charges were always about conflict-of-interest corruption. That seems to hold still today as well...as the court never managed to get him on anything else than the land sales on Ratchada. Many ppl seem to be upset about the sales of Shin Corporation, but nobody can explain what was wrong with it, and if they can, they get the facts completely wrong.

Why not list the crimes he committed, and then let's see how many can be backed up with facts.

To answer your question, Chris: yes, it is based on what he has done. And just to clarify, the "propaganda" to which you refer is not in fact propaganda, but is instead a simple recitation of all the venal actions undertaken by Thaksin and his cronies.

As for the specific crimes, well, others have listed them at length on this and numerous other threads. My personal favorite not listed on this thread is his cancellation of the advertising contract for the Skytrain in order to award that to his son. I'm sure there are numerous other crimes and misdemeanors that the Shinawatra family pulled off that have not yet reached the light of day. Hopefully, they will some day.

Not that it really matters. What does matter is that his actions were enough for the generals to authorize his ouster, and to arrange for his succeeding proxies to be expelled as well. Just as they will bring an end to any future government that is in any way associated with Thaksin.

Which is a good thing.

[chrislarsson]

To the ones who hates Thaksin so much. Do u really believe u hate him because what he his done, and not because the of the propaganda campaign started against him?

I didn't see this hate until beginning of 2005. And until then charges were always about conflict-of-interest corruption. That seems to hold still today as well...as the court never managed to get him on anything else than the land sales on Ratchada. Many ppl seem to be upset about the sales of Shin Corporation, but nobody can explain what was wrong with it, and if they can, they get the facts completely wrong.

Why not list the crimes he committed, and then let's see how many can be backed up with facts.

To answer your question, Chris: yes, it is based on what he has done. And just to clarify, the "propaganda" to which you refer is not in fact propaganda, but is instead a simple recitation of all the venal actions undertaken by Thaksin and his cronies.

As for the specific crimes, well, others have listed them at length on this and numerous other threads. My personal favorite not listed on this thread is his cancellation of the advertising contract for the Skytrain in order to award that to his son. I'm sure there are numerous other crimes and misdemeanors that the Shinawatra family pulled off that have not yet reached the light of day. Hopefully, they will some day.

Not that it really matters. What does matter is that his actions were enough for the generals to authorize his ouster, and to arrange for his succeeding proxies to be expelled as well. Just as they will bring an end to any future government that is in any way associated with Thaksin.

Which is a good thing.

It's not that I don't believe that Thaksin was corrupt. But I try to separate between what I believe and what I know. And after reading the postings here, I still don't know more than before.

[tijnebijn]

This is a long article on Thanong's blog on the current situation. While I am sure Bangkok Pundit and Fonzi (Thailand Jumped the Shark) will have a field day picking it apart, it is well worth a read.

http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/thanong/2009/04/21/entry-1

Politically I agree with much that Thanong says. Economically, I disagree with what he is leading up to.

Thanks for the link , interesting read .

Edited April 25, 2009 by tijnebijn

[Boater]

well it looks as if it may start tonight

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/1561...ally-to-bangkok

RIP Thailand

[animatic]

To the ones who hates Thaksin so much. Do u really believe u hate him because what he his done, and not because the of the propaganda campaign started against him?

I didn't see this hate until beginning of 2005. And until then charges were always about conflict-of-interest corruption. That seems to hold still today as well...as the court never managed to get him on anything else than the land sales on Ratchada. Many ppl seem to be upset about the sales of Shin Corporation, but nobody can explain what was wrong with it, and if they can, they get the facts completely wrong.

Why not list the crimes he committed, and then let's see how many can be backed up with facts.

To answer your question, Chris: yes, it is based on what he has done. And just to clarify, the "propaganda" to which you refer is not in fact propaganda, but is instead a simple recitation of all the venal actions undertaken by Thaksin and his cronies.

As for the specific crimes, well, others have listed them at length on this and numerous other threads. My personal favorite not listed on this thread is his cancellation of the advertising contract for the Skytrain in order to award that to his son. I'm sure there are numerous other crimes and misdemeanors that the Shinawatra family pulled off that have not yet reached the light of day. Hopefully, they will some day.

Not that it really matters. What does matter is that his actions were enough for the generals to authorize his ouster, and to arrange for his succeeding proxies to be expelled as well. Just as they will bring an end to any future government that is in any way associated with Thaksin.

Which is a good thing.

It's not that I don't believe that Thaksin was corrupt. But I try to separate between what I believe and what I know. And after reading the postings here, I still don't know more than before.

Reads the News Clips.

Most of the POSTS are either :

a ) Commentary. Some are observers, others pundits,

others barstool warmers bored after a night out.

b ) Opinion; valid, yet not necessarily accurate appraisals.

c ) Propaganda for one side or the other.

d ) Counter pro Propaganda for the opposing side.

e ) Ill informed speculation based on biases.

f ) Slightly better informed speculation based on even handedness.

g ) External specilist infor from people who have backgrounds in a subject.

h ) Complete and utter <deleted> from the occasional troll.

Now if you disbelieve 95% of the official news sources,

you can try and weed your way through the assorted

'official web bloggers / commentators.

I try to NEVER ignore all, but the obviously mindless,

since reading those clearly opposed to my observation based views,

might give an indication of things to come. And somethings are so stupid as to demand refutation.

Some disagree because they can't believe much, most, or ALL of the newspapers of the day,

or they just can't deal with their team NOT being top dog, and so defend it regardless of logic.

Some few seem to have hitched their wagon to a premise, and that premise to a team,

and can't allow that situations change and re-evaluation is allowed in the real world.

Others truly appear to be paid propaganda merchants and scream the party line endlessly

and without obvious critical thought, just keep pumping it out.

One or two seem to be true believer zeolots,

possibly now being manipulated by others in their own name.

Feed a line to do in their own words, but not on anyones payroll.

So much input so little consensus....

But then read my tag below...