More Rallies 'as Soon As Decree Ends'

[TAWP]

Do you have evidence to say the tear gas police used on 7th October causing leg lost and death? I saw on tv they tested the tear gas after that to prove that it didn't tear even paper.

You saw on TV? What channel would that be?

So I suppose you don't remember the very clear demonstation of the effect of the canister on 1) flat ground and grass, leaving a clear whole in the grass where the canister exploded 2) the effect of a closely fired canister on a metal pipe with clear indentation of the force ?

You cannot be educated if you don't watch or read what is shown to you.

I saw a photo of a policeman with a short gun posted by SJ, thinking he might shoot the yellows. What about the whole set of soldiers with M-16 and other types of guns on this 13th April? Did any reds lose their legs because of tear gas? Or were they shot by soldiers?

Reds didn't lose any legs from teargas canisters as:

1) The police didn't lift a finger to act upon them

2) The police didn't fire teargas canisters

3) The police was not allowed to use the Chinese manufactured military grade canisters after last years event against PAD.

Anything else?

I remember many Thai organizations and associations were against Khun Somchai government for using violence towards the yellows. But now they are all quiet when the reds were shot.

Since there is no proof ANY reds was actually shot by the military...well...

Not saying none ever was, but no reported deaths and no large amount of wounded (PAD received 400 wounded as you might recall, or did they all slap themselves until they got nosebleed and claimed to be wounded?).

[Koo82]

Koo, what you claim the reds fight for is fair and good. I would be a red tomorrow if that was the only agenda. But until you divorce yourselves from Thaksin, until you foreswear voilence, and until you put your demands in a cohesive and digestible manner (ie, not whitewashing misdeeds of politicians) then you have no credibility. The reds have many good points. But cut Thaksin out of the equasion and you will be listened to. Until then it is like a nation negotiating for ransom. The country is being hijacked for the sake of one man. We can not negotiate under these terms. Stop bringing Thaksin into it and you will regain credibility. Until then the majority of the people of Thailand will not accept the red movement (inspite of pictures of thousands of protesters - more people go to an AF concert on Saturday nights than that).

Good post and I'd also like to see Koo82 respond to this.

I thought I replied already.

All the yellows did, all the killings and blocking roads and airports, all people who support the yellows, what do they want? Is it worth to do all that in order to cut only Khun Thaksin?

Thai people have fought for democracy for so many years, be it against army coups or whatever. Back in year 2516, 2550, where was Khun Thaksin?

They didn't wear red. Many are students:

[Koo82]

red-shirts say no class equalisation, yes koo82 call Khun Somchai, but no Khun for Abhisit . start from yourself first before demanding from others.

You should know what I call Abhisit in my daily talk. I try very much not to post it here or I'll be banned.

My Prime Minister is Khun Thaksin. If there were no coup 2549, he would still be our PM.

Don't tell me what people did whole night before the voting for Abhisit on 15th December 2008.

[Sao Jiang Mai]

Yes, a protest movement of hundreds of thousands of people is worth more than one man - Thaksin. Everything is about one man. Why are you so loyal to him? At such expense?

[Sao Jiang Mai]

And Koo, please try to be realistic. Millions of people will NOT tolerate Thaksin's return, so if you keep fighting for his return we will continue to be embroiled in this mess. Cut Thaksin out of the equation and people will talk. Is one man worth all this?

[Insight]

Koo, what you claim the reds fight for is fair and good. I would be a red tomorrow if that was the only agenda. But until you divorce yourselves from Thaksin, until you foreswear voilence, and until you put your demands in a cohesive and digestible manner (ie, not whitewashing misdeeds of politicians) then you have no credibility. The reds have many good points. But cut Thaksin out of the equasion and you will be listened to. Until then it is like a nation negotiating for ransom. The country is being hijacked for the sake of one man. We can not negotiate under these terms. Stop bringing Thaksin into it and you will regain credibility. Until then the majority of the people of Thailand will not accept the red movement (inspite of pictures of thousands of protesters - more people go to an AF concert on Saturday nights than that).

Good post and I'd also like to see Koo82 respond to this.

I thought I replied already.

All the yellows did, all the killings and blocking roads and airports, all people who support the yellows, what do they want? Is it worth to do all that in order to cut only Khun Thaksin?

Thai people have fought for democracy for so many years, be it against army coups or whatever. Back in year 2516, 2550, where was Khun Thaksin?

They didn't wear red. Many are students:

In the eyes of many - and this includes students - Thaksin is the number one cause of Thailands troubles right now, and not the institutions you care to blame. (I really don't need to tell you this do I?)

If the red cause would (sincerely) drop their allegiance with Thaksin the rest of the country would probably be much more sympathetic to your cause. However we both know this is highly unlikely.

BTW, I highly doubt it would take much effort to counter your claims having the support of students.

[ThNiner]

And Koo, please try to be realistic. Millions of people will NOT tolerate Thaksin's return, so if you keep fighting for his return we will continue to be embroiled in this mess. Cut Thaksin out of the equation and people will talk. Is one man worth all this?

I bet right now Koo is either covering both ears with hands or wearing earmuffs. There's no way he's gonna listen. But what you said is so right krab khun Soa Jiang Mai. (I'm Noom Tai. )

[hammered]

And Koo, please try to be realistic. Millions of people will NOT tolerate Thaksin's return, so if you keep fighting for his return we will continue to be embroiled in this mess. Cut Thaksin out of the equation and people will talk. Is one man worth all this?

If pro-democracy advocates abandon Thaksin they get all their deamnds immediately. In fact Abhisit has already offered elections, charter change and amnesty but not for Thaksin. If the reds decide to not play ball it shows it is only about one man, and considering that formal equality in the eyes of the law, human rights and innocence until proven guilty are all generally accepted as democratic values then Thaksin cant really be seen to be democratically minded anyway as proven by his won reocrd, so a continuation to fight for Thaksin rather than negotiations expsoes the casue as nothing more than a fight for one man at the expense of democracy.

[Plus]

Pheu Thai threatens to boycott tripartite reconciliation panel

http://nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/3...artite-reconcil

[animatic]

Being realistic doesn't fit into Koo's world view anymore.

She has clearly been indoctrinated, possibly beyond redemption for the short term.

The Reds are using an almost religious style of mind control,

and iconography to foster hatred of their fellow Thais,

in a bid to create chaos, and thus a route to control of the country.

This is not freedom, this is industrial use of lies and obsfucation

to build a movement backing a demagogue, megalomaniac.

Talking reason to it's hardcore adherents is like talking to a wall.

[animatic]

Pheu Thai threatens to boycott tripartite reconciliation panel

http://nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/3...artite-reconcil

In their usual constructive way of moving the country forward for the good of all Thais.

Or

In other words; 'if we can't accuse the government of stuff,

and bring them down then we won't talk with you.'

Such a mature political view point.

'We get our way or we yell at you until we do.'

[hammered]

Pheu Thai threatens to boycott tripartite reconciliation panel

http://nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/3...artite-reconcil

Bad politcal move. Wonder if Thaksin oredered it? Wonder if any individual PTP MPs will break ranks?

[Sao Jiang Mai]

Wonder what the answer is from Koo's corner.

[dkt]

red-shirts say no class equalisation, yes koo82 call Khun Somchai, but no Khun for Abhisit . start from yourself first before demanding from others.

You should know what I call Abhisit in my daily talk. I try very much not to post it here or I'll be banned.

My Prime Minister is Khun Thaksin. If there were no coup 2549, he would still be our PM.

Don't tell me what people did whole night before the voting for Abhisit on 15th December 2008.

our pm???? no he is your master, u can die for him eh? but please don't drag my country to die with you ok?

i don't know what u call KHUN Abhisit it's ur choice ur level of maturity ur mentality ur intelligence keep posting to show us ur democraZy.

[chrislarsson]

Being realistic doesn't fit into Koo's world view anymore.

She has clearly been indoctrinated, possibly beyond redemption for the short term.

The Reds are using an almost religious style of mind control,

and iconography to foster hatred of their fellow Thais,

in a bid to create chaos, and thus a route to control of the country.

This is not freedom, this is industrial use of lies and obsfucation

to build a movement backing a demagogue, megalomaniac.

Talking reason to it's hardcore adherents is like talking to a wall.

How come it is so difficult to provide any facts about Thaksin's crimes? Every time I ask the question I get replies in opinions.

For instance, what was the crime committed in the sales of the Shin Corporation? I get replies that it was a crime because ppl say it was a massive crime. Some say it was a crime because the law regarding foreign ownership was changed. But it was a change that was long overdue, and supported by the democrats. Some say that it is a crime because he benefitted from the sales. But how can you sell stocks without making a? Some say it was a crime because of the tax evasion. But how come nobody can tell what the tax code says?

Another question. How was the 9 judges in the consitional court appointed and when? All I want to know is if Thailand has an independent court? People here say that crimes has been committed because court rulings say so. But what the court say means nothing if it has been politizised.

[hammered]

The reds are definitely cult like. They even have pics of Thaksin now with God written on.

Their followers or at least the most dedicated ones have a faith based belief in every claim they make even without evidence. There is no doubt and everything is seen in black and white and then we get to the everyone is against us conspiracy. It is more like the embattled Jonestown cult than a politcal movement.

[ThNiner]

How come it is so difficult to provide any facts about Thaksin's crimes? Every time I ask the question I get replies in opinions.

For instance, what was the crime committed in the sales of the Shin Corporation? I get replies that it was a crime because ppl say it was a massive crime. Some say it was a crime because the law regarding foreign ownership was changed. But it was a change that was long overdue, and supported by the democrats. Some say that it is a crime because he benefitted from the sales. But how can you sell stocks without making a? Some say it was a crime because of the tax evasion. But how come nobody can tell what the tax code says?

Another question. How was the 9 judges in the consitional court appointed and when? All I want to know is if Thailand has an independent court? People here say that crimes has been committed because court rulings say so. But what the court say means nothing if it has been politizised.

Not very, if you bothered to look it up on the internet. If I have to guess, the reason that people haven't really bothered to go into the details of these cases with you was probably a) they expected anyone who had access to the internet to educate themselves by looking them up on the net, the details of each case aren't exactly short. Besides, you think crooks who carried out these crimes would have made them so simple that everything could be explained in one paragraph? Anyway, here's the details of one of his crimes (in Thai.) I'll look them up in English later...if I bother.

Thaksin's Tax Avoidance

Edited April 29, 2009 by ThNiner

[Insight]

How come it is so difficult to provide any facts about Thaksin's crimes? Every time I ask the question I get replies in opinions.

For instance, what was the crime committed in the sales of the Shin Corporation? I get replies that it was a crime because ppl say it was a massive crime. Some say it was a crime because the law regarding foreign ownership was changed. But it was a change that was long overdue, and supported by the democrats. Some say that it is a crime because he benefitted from the sales. But how can you sell stocks without making a? Some say it was a crime because of the tax evasion. But how come nobody can tell what the tax code says?

Another question. How was the 9 judges in the consitional court appointed and when? All I want to know is if Thailand has an independent court? People here say that crimes has been committed because court rulings say so. But what the court say means nothing if it has been politizised.

Not very, if you bothered to look it up on the internet. If I have to guess, the reason that people haven't really bothered to go into the details of these cases with you was probably a) they expected anyone who had access to the internet to educate themselves by looking them up on the net, the details of each case aren't exactly short. Besides, you think crooks who carried out these crimes would have made them so simple that everything could be explained in one paragraph? Anyway, here's the details o one of his crimes (in Thai.) I'll look them up in English later...but I bother.

Thaksin's Tax Avoidance

Press CTRL+A to select all when loaded (will make the text visible).

That site so badly needs to be translated to English...

[ThNiner]

Here's a summary of his crimes: (Even the summary is long! )

Summary

The cases acted on by the Asset Examination Committee are classified into four types:

1. Those currently in progress in the courts

1.1 Tax avoidance in transferring Shinawat Computer Inc. Communications involving Khun Ying Pojaman Shinawat –Bannaphot Damaphong Case number : 1149/2550 commenced 26 March 2007

1.2 The sale of land in the Rachadapisek district by the Financial Institutions Development Fund (FIDF) to KY. Pojaman Shinawat. Both Thaksin and Pojaman are defendants

1.3 The case regarding the 2/3 number lottery project by the The Government Lottery Office. 32 political office holders and 16 officials.

2 Those cases which have been sent to the office of the auditor general but which were not decided by the Attorney General before the ASC ended its tenure:

2.1 Projects regarding electrical cable laying at Suwannaphum airport involving former Minister of Transport Suriya Jungrungreangkit and a top official in the Ministry of Transport

2.2. Case involving baggage systems and CTX 9000 scanners at S.Airport involving 26 politicians, civil servants, officials of state enterprises, juristic persons, and entrepreneurs. Loss to the state estimated at 6, 937 million baht.

2.3 Case involving “loan irregularities loan irregularities extended to the Krisda Mahanakorn Group” by the Krung Thai group. The case involves Thaksin, his son Panthongtae and 31 (former) board members of Krung Thai Bank.

2.4 Five cases that allege the former prime minister Thaksin used his position to benefit his own businesses, causing loss to state assets.

2.4.1 Case on the order to convert mobile phone operator concessions to an excise tax, leading to a loss of the Telephone organization of Thailand of 30, 667 million baht.

2.4.2 Case regarding reducing revenue share paid to TST ทศท from prepaid mobile services from 25 to 20% leading to a state loss of 70, 872 million baht.

2.4.3 Case relating to AIS and its reduction of payments by treating networks separately for payment purposes to TOT. Loss of 18970579711 baht during the term of the concession. This gain enabled rise in Shin Corp before its sale.

2.4.4 Various breaks given by the Board of Investment for IPSTAR satellite projects within Thailand.

2.4.5 Case regarding Treasury officials in tax negotiations regarding the sale of Shin Corp.

3. Those cases under consideration by the AEC but not forwarded to the OAG before 30th June.

3.1 Case regarding Sky Train Airport link with losses to the state of 1, 200 million baht.

3.2 Three Cases regarding Ua Athon housing project that involves builders, officials (3.2.1/3.2.2/3.2.3 )

3.3 A case involving the Ministry of Agriculture and Cooperatives and its dealings with private companies worth 300 million baht.

3.4 The case involving the Bangkok Metropolitan Authority’s purchase of fire trucks involving a loss to the state of 1, 900 million baht.

3.5 The cause of unusual wealth in Thaksin’s purchase of Manchester City

4. Those cases which have been returned after the Attorney General determined not to proceed.

4.1 The Export-Import Bank and the loan to Burma (which involved purchase of Shin Corp products). Claimed loss of state amounting to 670,436,201 baht (EXIM) 140,349,000 (Treasury). Gains to Shin Corp 593,492,815 baht.

4.2 Case involving Ministry of Agriculture and Cooperatives and rubber plantations project. Loss to the state of 1, 400 million baht Case involves 44 people including Newin Chidchop, former Deputy Minister of Agriculture. Various accused are being asked to pay compensation of 1,109 million baht.

5. Those cases sent to the Tax office to recoup tax.

5.1 Pojaman Shinawat and Banaphot Damaphong transferred shares with no tax. Tax outstanding approximately 546 million baht.

5.2 Thaksin’s children Phongthongtae and Thongtha Shinawat bought shares in Shin Corp from Ample Rich Invesment (164.6 million each) at a cost of 1 baht before they sold it to Temasak at 49.25 baht, which is subject to tax. In August 2550 requested Tax Department to seek payment of 11, 809, 294, 773 baht in tax.

5. 3. Ample Rich tax issue, as it was active in Thailand for four years, but never paid tax.

Source: http://sovereignmyth.blogspot.com/2008/07/...committees.html

P. Chrislarsson, it took me about 2 minutes and 20 seconds to look this up on the internet. Internet is pretty useful you know.

[ThNiner]

Keep in mind that those crimes are just the ones involving his assets. They don't include his human rights violations crimes such as the Kruesae (spelling?) massacre, war on drugs killings, and the disappearances of key witnesses like Attorney Somchai Neelapaijit...etc etc.

Edited April 29, 2009 by ThNiner

[ThNiner]

Here's another one, if the likes of Chrislarsson bother to read:

Thaksin regime's business networks

Excerpts:

Since Thaksin took office as prime minister in 2001, his government issued several economic policies, which directly benefited listed firms with close connections to the prime minister and Cabinet members. The policies also benefited and protected businesses of the politicians and their affiliations. Such policies included tax privileges, deduction of concession fees, blocking new business rivals to enter market, and delaying policies which could affect businesses of the Thaksin network.

Businesses, which are taking part in the operation to eat up the country in all possible means, include businesses belonging to Shinawatra family and relatives, Mahakijsiri family, Jungrungreangkit family, Maleenon family, Chearavanon family, and Asavabhokin family. All of the families are on the top list of richest families in Thailand.

This one took me another 2 minutes and 20 seconds to find I think.

Edited April 29, 2009 by ThNiner

[ThNiner]

I guess Thaksin and his cronies did all these just for the sake of the rural poor and errr... democracy! Thaksin and his associates are just "common men" who are fighting against "the elite" of Thailand for the rural poor!! And they just happen to be Thailand's richest families (who exclusively kept sucking the real wealth out of the rest of Thailand), that's all folks.

Edited April 29, 2009 by ThNiner

[ThNiner]

Press CTRL+A to select all when loaded (will make the text visible).

That site so badly needs to be translated to English...

Thanks krab khun Insight for your help.

[HagenvonTronje]

Not very, if you bothered to look it up on the internet. If I have to guess, the reason that people haven't really bothered to go into the details of these cases with you was probably a) they expected anyone who had access to the internet to educate themselves by looking them up on the net, the details of each case aren't exactly short. Besides, you think crooks who carried out these crimes would have made them so simple that everything could be explained in one paragraph? Anyway, here's the details o one of his crimes (in Thai.) I'll look them up in English later...but I bother.

Thaksin's Tax Avoidance

Press CTRL+A to select all when loaded (will make the text visible).

That site so badly needs to be translated to English...

that is a thaksin hate page. so probably hyperbole and lacks accurancy and has lots of propaganda.

same helpful as a thaksin love page would be. zero. both sides had choosen thaksin as center and backbone of their cult.

[ThNiner]

From http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7681416.stm

The case stems from Pojaman's purchase in an auction of about 13 acres (five hectares) of prime land in central Bangkok in 2003 for 772 million baht ($22.4m).

The land was bought from the Financial Institutions Development Fund (FIDF), a government agency that had been set up to bail-out debt-ridden banks.

The FIDF had taken ownership of the land in 1995 to cover the losses of the collapsed Erawan Trust.

Prime ministers and their spouses are barred from doing business with government agencies. Thaksin, who was prime minister from 2001-2006, said the charges were politically motivated and that he had expected the Supreme Court to sentence him, Reuters news agency reported. He told Reuters he was not seeking asylum in the UK.

Also

CASES AGAINST THAKSIN FAMILY Case one: Corruption charges related to purchase of state land by his wife. Who: Thaksin and his wife. Status: Thaksin guilty, wife acquitted

Case two: Abuse of power linked to government lottery scheme. Who: Thaksin and several former Cabinet ministers. Status: Case accepted by Supreme Court

Case three: Abuse of power related to state loan to Burma alleged to have benefited family business. Who: Thaksin. Status: Case accepted by Supreme Court

Case four: Concealing assets. Who: Thaksin, wife and two others. Status: Awaiting court decision on proceeding to trial

Case five: Tax evasion. Who: Members of Thaksin's family. Status: Pojaman Shinawatra and her brother jailed for three years, her secretary for two years

Several other claims also lodged

[ThNiner]

that is a thaksin hate page. so probably hyperbole and lacks accurancy and has lots of propaganda.

same helpful as a thaksin love page would be. zero. both sides had choosen thaksin as center and backbone of their cult.

Yeah, it's from a Thaksin hate page, but the court has already ruled on this. Pojaman Shinawatra and her brother were found guilty. Guess your next excuse will be that the court also hated Thaksin?

[ThNiner]

A little reminder on anther one of Thaksin's crimes:

The National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) and the Lawyers Council of Thailand are pressing the government to ratify the convention on the International Criminal Court so deposed prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra could be tried for crimes against humanity over his controversial anti-drugs campaign.

"Saddam Hussein [the former president of Iraq] was charged with committing crimes against humanity for the killing of 170 people. In that case, the 2,500 deaths we witnessed here must constitute crimes against humanity,"

Wasant Panich of the NHRC said the drugs war policy was clearly a mistake, for which Mr Thaksin must be held to account. He cited the discovery of an official letter sent to people in Samut Sakhon's Ban Phaeo district at the height of the campaign, warning them to report to a local drugs war centre or their "safety could not be guaranteed". Mr Wasant added that a letter allegedly signed by an interior permanent secretary at the time was distributed to provincial governors outlining three ways to cut the number of drugs traders and producers. The suspects could be "arrested, face extra-judicial killings, or lose their lives for any reason". He said the blacklist of drug suspects took only 15 days to compile. The perceived haste raised concerns that some may have been wrongly targeted.

The NHRC received 40 complaints related to the drugs war deaths. Not a single culprit in those cases was ever caught.

Source: http://www.akha.org/content/drugwar/thaksinwarcrimes.html (A Bangkok Post report actually)

Edited April 29, 2009 by ThNiner

[Insight]

Not very, if you bothered to look it up on the internet. If I have to guess, the reason that people haven't really bothered to go into the details of these cases with you was probably a) they expected anyone who had access to the internet to educate themselves by looking them up on the net, the details of each case aren't exactly short. Besides, you think crooks who carried out these crimes would have made them so simple that everything could be explained in one paragraph? Anyway, here's the details o one of his crimes (in Thai.) I'll look them up in English later...but I bother.

Thaksin's Tax Avoidance

Press CTRL+A to select all when loaded (will make the text visible).

That site so badly needs to be translated to English...

that is a thaksin hate page. so probably hyperbole and lacks accurancy and has lots of propaganda.

same helpful as a thaksin love page would be. zero. both sides had choosen thaksin as center and backbone of their cult.

I'm glad you recognise this

[animatic]

Not very, if you bothered to look it up on the internet. If I have to guess, the reason that people haven't really bothered to go into the details of these cases with you was probably a) they expected anyone who had access to the internet to educate themselves by looking them up on the net, the details of each case aren't exactly short. Besides, you think crooks who carried out these crimes would have made them so simple that everything could be explained in one paragraph? Anyway, here's the details o one of his crimes (in Thai.) I'll look them up in English later...but I bother.

Thaksin's Tax Avoidance

Press CTRL+A to select all when loaded (will make the text visible).

That site so badly needs to be translated to English...

that is a thaksin hate page. so probably hyperbole and lacks accurancy and has lots of propaganda.

same helpful as a thaksin love page would be. zero. both sides had choosen thaksin as center and backbone of their cult.

Right, a list of factual court cases and that is a hate page.

Just saying it is inaccurate doesn't make it so.

Mods, are we allowed to flame a returned banned poster unsuccessfully pretending to be a first timer?

It would be Sooooooooo poetic.

[chrislarsson]

Here's another one, if the likes of Chrislarsson bother to read:

Thaksin regime's business networks

Excerpts:

Since Thaksin took office as prime minister in 2001, his government issued several economic policies, which directly benefited listed firms with close connections to the prime minister and Cabinet members. The policies also benefited and protected businesses of the politicians and their affiliations. Such policies included tax privileges, deduction of concession fees, blocking new business rivals to enter market, and delaying policies which could affect businesses of the Thaksin network.

Businesses, which are taking part in the operation to eat up the country in all possible means, include businesses belonging to Shinawatra family and relatives, Mahakijsiri family, Jungrungreangkit family, Maleenon family, Chearavanon family, and Asavabhokin family. All of the families are on the top list of richest families in Thailand.

This one took me another 2 minutes and 20 seconds to find I think.

Excellent :-) Now let's see how long time it will take you to update Thaksin's page on Wikipidia.

The section on Corruption is embarrassingly short at the moment, and half of it is about how corruption decreased during Thaksin's years.