Prime Minister Urges Political Parties To Propose Charter Amendments

[Plus]

I was hoping that hundreds of thousands of red shirts ready to die for the new constituion can come up with some ideas on their own. Apparently not. Apparently their interest is strictly limited to foot clappers and dying.

Some mass movement, ain't it?

[LawnGnome]

I was hoping that hundreds of thousands of red shirts ready to die for the new constituion can come up with some ideas on their own. Apparently not. Apparently their interest is strictly limited to foot clappers and dying.

Some mass movement, ain't it?

When a mass movement is geared towards one man's pursuit of money - its going to be hard to find "Die hard" loyalists.

[hammered]

Well Snohs got his suggestion in:

suspend the 2007 charter, go back to 1997. Give an amnesty to everyone including Thaksin and have Abhisit to resign but then to come back as head of a new government.:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/04/21...cs_30100947.php

Not quite sure everyone will agree with this idea.

[ballpoint]

I was hoping that hundreds of thousands of red shirts ready to die for the new constituion can come up with some ideas on their own. Apparently not. Apparently their interest is strictly limited to foot clappers and dying.

Some mass movement, ain't it?

When a mass movement is geared towards one man's pursuit of money - its going to be hard to find "Die hard" loyalists.

I don't know, we were told by the reds that hundreds of them died, but apparently they found dying so hard that they didn't die at all. A miracle, Thaksin can revive the dead.

[Thai at Heart]

Well Snohs got his suggestion in:

suspend the 2007 charter, go back to 1997. Give an amnesty to everyone including Thaksin and have Abhisit to resign but then to come back as head of a new government.:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/04/21...cs_30100947.php

Not quite sure everyone will agree with this idea.

Nearly choked on my beer!

10 out of 10 for thinking out of the box with this one. I know Abhisit is seen as a political do-gooder, but there are limits. Why would he ever think to resign? I think this idea has less chance than snow tomorrow in Bangkok.

[cmsally]

Like I said yesterday friends become enemies and enemies become friends.

You can expect to see more of this in the coming days along with efforts to sideline Suthep and Newin.

There is a sense of desperation in the air.

[LawnGnome]

Well Snohs got his suggestion in:

suspend the 2007 charter, go back to 1997. Give an amnesty to everyone including Thaksin and have Abhisit to resign but then to come back as head of a new government.:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/04/21...cs_30100947.php

Not quite sure everyone will agree with this idea.

I don't think anyone will, except for the PTP, lol. Of course nobody listen's to Snoh except the media...

[LawnGnome]

Like I said yesterday friends become enemies and enemies become friends.

You can expect to see more of this in the coming days along with efforts to sideline Suthep and Newin.

There is a sense of desperation in the air.

Of course, the desperation is all one-sided....

[Crushdepth]

Some politicians are dissatisfied with an article in the current charter which provides for the dissolution of a party if its leader or executive member engages in electoral fraud.

fuc_k them. Corrupt politicians belong in jail, not in office. I fully support dissolution of parties that engage in electoral fraud - how the hel_l can you have democracy when people are free to monkey with the polls?

[Thai at Heart]

Like I said yesterday friends become enemies and enemies become friends.

You can expect to see more of this in the coming days along with efforts to sideline Suthep and Newin.

There is a sense of desperation in the air.

This play for amnesty does have a sense of desperation about it, since it comes only days after the centre of Bangkok was a "war" zone. I think people realised that something has to give and quickly. Obviously some people got very concerned about last week's events. The wheels are turning very fast right now in terms of Thai politics, and yes Abhisit has to find a way to rid himself of the necessity of hanging onto Newin. None of us know who he is planning to make friends with, but by finding a way to rehabilitate the banned TRT bunch, he may find a whole lot of new buddies.

The connections between all the TRT factions are so mixed up, that I can't remember who is loyal to whom. All that probably means is that they are all available for hire/support with the right type of promises.

[LawnGnome]

How about we found to parties based on a liberal and conservative ideological foundation, and let each politician join the one that bests fits with their own set of values and principals...

[LawnGnome]

Oh, and lets not give Snoh's comments too much play. He has been making the same suggestion once a month for the past 6 months. Of course he always mentioned that he would be the suitable choice to lead a "national unity" government (isn't that fortunate that he qualifies, based on his proposal! We are so lucky).

Remember his big "power dinner" he planned and hosted while all the coalition wrangling was happening, and nobody showed up?

[animatic]

Some politicians are dissatisfied with an article in the current charter which provides for the dissolution of a party if its leader or executive member engages in electoral fraud. Four parties have been dissolved under the terms of this article.

Thats going to be a stumbling block. If criminal acts are committed by the few, should we punish the many? I say if the leader and executive are committing crimes without the knowledge of the many it can taint the many unfairly by association. But, in fairness we shouldn't punish those who are innocent.... should we?

Ultimately, if the political party can still hold the balance of power after the criminals are stood down they should be allowed to continue to govern for the remainder of the term.

Think back to the 2008 dissolutions. PPP became PTP, and Chart Thai became Chart Thai Pattana. The dissolution penalty is a joke, and should be dropped for that reason. Moreover, if the Friends of Newin had not broken away, the ruling PPP-led coalition could have been replaced by a ruling PTP-led alliance.

The big question I don't understand is, what happens to party executive members who are elected on the party list. How are they to be replaced if they personally are disqualified and their party is dissolved?

Very simply, they are NOT replaced.

Though By Elections do get held for red carded pols who are removed.

And that is one of the main points of the excercise.

If the guiding executives of a party know of and condone election law violations,

they get removed from running actively for 5 years.

ALL other PARTY MP's keep their status, only leadership gets removed, for cause.

Which is one reason Newin bailed on PTP, he clearl saw that PTP leadership was going to get him nowhere

and life's to short to spin your wheels.

Edited April 21, 2009 by animatic

[animatic]

The 2007 Constitution was approved by the whole country, via a national referendum (can we even say that about the 1997 version?). No way you could tear it up legally. Only choice is to amend the parts that people don't like. Personally, I think both version make it far to easy to amend the constitution. I think that any change should also be approved by a national referendum, after passing through the parliament. But they forgot to ask me when they were writing it...lol

You mean 65 million vote yes? I don't think so. I think only about 13 million (from my memory) vote yes, 10 million vote no.

Also, the question on the referendum is bias.

It ask the people to vote

(A..) Yes, the newly proposed 2007 constitution or

(B..) No constitution at all (because the old one has already been thorn; also imply that military continue to rule, as no fresh election can be held without constitution).

In fact, it should ask the people if they would rather want:

(A..) reinstead the existing 1997 constitution or

(B..) the newly proposed 2007 constitution.

which I am sure most people will choice (A..) (just my judgement).

The USA had an early constitution of sorts, it had problems.

A new one was written up and then a

yes no vote was held for EACH state, and it was simple.

Not a :

do we go back to the last one or do we approve this one.

Sometimes things are best left simple....

It was perfectly fine for the voters to vote yes no.

If no was the answer then more drafting would have been needed.

And another vote.

But the voters said yes. Enough of the voters voted to make it valid.

It is NOW the law of the land.

I personally think modifying '97 would have been the best idea at the time.

I wasn't consulted.

I agree with you. That is the way to go. Suggest changes, and let vote yes or no. If "No" vote, the current one is still running.

However what I mean to say is that the army already burn the 1997 constitution in the 2006 coup. A "No" vote will lead to "No" constitution.

The 1997 constitution still exists, it is just not in force.

SINCE a referendum was held and Thai voters approved an new constitution.

But that doesn't mean it can't be dusted off and used as a starting place.

With close analysis as to where Thaksin and co. managed solid end runs around it

for their own benefit.

[samgrowth]

Well Snohs got his suggestion in:

suspend the 2007 charter, go back to 1997. Give an amnesty to everyone including Thaksin and have Abhisit to resign but then to come back as head of a new government.:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/04/21...cs_30100947.php

Not quite sure everyone will agree with this idea.

I wonder how much Snohs gets for that statement. 2,000 Baht from Thaksin? I hope the cheque bounce.

[sriracha john]

Well Snohs got his suggestion in:

suspend the 2007 charter, go back to 1997. Give an amnesty to everyone including Thaksin and have Abhisit to resign but then to come back as head of a new government.:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/04/21...cs_30100947.php

Not quite sure everyone will agree with this idea.

Snoh just missed being part of the 111 banned TRT Party executives himself after bailing out of Thaksin's sinking ship just before it plunged under the ocean's surface.

Edited April 21, 2009 by sriracha john

[sriracha john]

It's the duty of politicians to decide on amnesty laws for banned politicians : Constitution court judge

Politicians, not the Constitution Court, will decide whether to issue amnesty laws for banned politicians, a Constitutional Court judge said Tuesday.

The court and the judges have duties to rule according to the laws, Wasan Soipisut said.

Wasan said it was the right of politicians to enact the amnesty law for those who were banned by the Constitution Court from politics for five years. The duty of the judges was only ruling according to the laws.

It is not a showing of disrespect to the Constitution court if the politicians banned by the court's ruling could have their political life back by the amnesty laws.

-- The Nation 2009-04-22

[hammered]

It's the duty of politicians to decide on amnesty laws for banned politicians : Constitution court judge

Politicians, not the Constitution Court, will decide whether to issue amnesty laws for banned politicians, a Constitutional Court judge said Tuesday.

The court and the judges have duties to rule according to the laws, Wasan Soipisut said.

Wasan said it was the right of politicians to enact the amnesty law for those who were banned by the Constitution Court from politics for five years. The duty of the judges was only ruling according to the laws.

It is not a showing of disrespect to the Constitution court if the politicians banned by the court's ruling could have their political life back by the amnesty laws.

-- The Nation 2009-04-22

It is going to happen

[sriracha john]

It's the duty of politicians to decide on amnesty laws for banned politicians : Constitution court judge

It is going to happen

It'll be a sad day for Thailand if it does, IMO.

The ability to hold these people's feet to the fire was having positive effects as far as I saw. Hard for me to believe that party executives don't have complicit knowledge of the actions of the party. It doesn't seem all that different from conspiracy laws for crime syndicates that can net a group of criminals over the actions of some.

[samgrowth]

It is not a showing of disrespect to the Constitution court if the politicians banned by the court's ruling could have their political life back by the amnesty laws.

-- The Nation 2009-04-22

LOL. This statement is so funny. So, after supreme court, the next court of appeal is parliment.

[kurtgruen]

NATION: PAD leader Somsak opposes amnesty for banned politicians

People's Alliance for Democracy core leader Somsak Kosaisuk opposed the amnesty law, saying that politicians should not be given privileges.

Somsak said, "PAD disagrees on the idea to grant amnesty to banned politicians because politicians aren't superior to other people. If they break the laws, especially corruption, they should be punished.

[LawnGnome]

I'm calling it boys...

The Puea Thai Party is Broken.

It no longer functions as a political mechanism, it no longer serves the interests of its constituents. It is well and truly broken. Yesterday's joint session of parliment turned into a Puea Thai slag fest - as they hurled accusations against the government (while providing no proof, as per norm).

How can I support the Democrats? Well, at least, when then served in the opposition role, they did their jobs. Offered suggestions, alternative policy directions, etc. Puea Thai does none of this. They have decided that if they can't be in power, then they won't play at all. Charlerm is a joke. Have any of you watched him "debate"? How can you possibly want him to be in power?

Anyone who wants that does not have the best interests of Thailand at heart. Abhisit may not be perfect, but he is trying. Can anyone say that ANY member of Puae Thai is trying to make this country better? Answer that question - if you can. (I refuse to call them the "opposition", because they provide none, only bullsh$t)

[LawnGnome]

It was incredibly funny to hear Speaker Chai's response to the Puea Thai accustation that many people had been killed. He said "feel free to bring in the bodies to show us, we'll wait"! LOL

[sriracha john]

EDITORIAL

Reconciliation via an amnesty

The idea of a general amnesty for all 220 banned executives of political parties dissolved since the 2006 coup - topping the list of which is fugitive former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra - has suddenly become a hot topic of widespread debate, drawing mixed reactions from supporters of the idea and its opponents.

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva, who recently revived the idea as part and parcel of a proposed attempt to amend the current Constitution, is supportive of a general amnesty for political offenders only.

All the parties in the coalition government and the opposition Puea Thai party support the idea, but Puea Thai party wants more. It wants the amnesty to cover criminal offences lodged against politicians by governments after the Sept 19 military coup in 2006. In other words, the party wants Thaksin to be completely exonerated of all the charges brought against him.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion...-via-an-amnesty

-- Bangkok Post 2009-04-23

[hammered]

It was incredibly funny to hear Speaker Chai's response to the Puea Thai accustation that many people had been killed. He said "feel free to bring in the bodies to show us, we'll wait"! LOL

Yesterday was pathetic in parliament.

[grandpops]

It's the duty of politicians to decide on amnesty laws for banned politicians : Constitution court judge

It is going to happen

It'll be a sad day for Thailand if it does, IMO.

The ability to hold these people's feet to the fire was having positive effects as far as I saw. Hard for me to believe that party executives don't have complicit knowledge of the actions of the party. It doesn't seem all that different from conspiracy laws for crime syndicates that can net a group of criminals over the actions of some.

The positive effects I suppose meaning airport closures - 3 Government house seizures - 2, overthrown elected PM's 3, (with Abhisit still in the balance), riots on the street, Thai society divided, assasination attempts, holiday industry in tatters, and all this during a coup that started in 2006 and is still (in practice) effective.

Glad it didn't go tits up, thats all I can say.

[sriracha john]

It's the duty of politicians to decide on amnesty laws for banned politicians : Constitution court judge

It is going to happen

It'll be a sad day for Thailand if it does, IMO.

The ability to hold these people's feet to the fire was having positive effects as far as I saw. Hard for me to believe that party executives don't have complicit knowledge of the actions of the party. It doesn't seem all that different from conspiracy laws for crime syndicates that can net a group of criminals over the actions of some.

The positive effects I suppose meaning airport closures - 3 Government house seizures - 2, overthrown elected PM's 3, (with Abhisit still in the balance), riots on the street, Thai society divided, assasination attempts, holiday industry in tatters, and all this during a coup that started in 2006 and is still (in practice) effective.

Glad it didn't go tits up, thats all I can say.

Not that all of that is directly attributable to the Party dissolutions, but trying to hold people responsible for mischief and fraud they previously didn't have to concern themselves with does come with a fair amount of upheaval relative to that newly enforced accountability. A child, once he/she is thoroughly spoiled, is an extremely difficult task to correct for parents.

[cmsally]

It's the duty of politicians to decide on amnesty laws for banned politicians : Constitution court judge

Politicians, not the Constitution Court, will decide whether to issue amnesty laws for banned politicians, a Constitutional Court judge said Tuesday.

The court and the judges have duties to rule according to the laws, Wasan Soipisut said.

Wasan said it was the right of politicians to enact the amnesty law for those who were banned by the Constitution Court from politics for five years. The duty of the judges was only ruling according to the laws.

It is not a showing of disrespect to the Constitution court if the politicians banned by the court's ruling could have their political life back by the amnesty laws.

<img src=http://www.thaivisa.com/pics/nationlogo.jpg>

-- The Nation 2009-04-22

It is going to happen

I agree with you. However it will be interesting to see how far it can be pushed by the Peua Thai. I am sure there are factions for and against the amnesty and some of those factions will differ in degrees. The outcome may be an indicator of where power is more or less centred.

Again , it is a mistake to look at it as a for and against dichotomy.

[hammered]

With it looking like parliament is going to fail to step up to the plate this is going to get far worse. If the elected reps cant even rise above the fray what hope is there. Compromise is the only sensible option but it seems that isnt going to happen. That leaves potential utter chaos.

[hammered]

It's the duty of politicians to decide on amnesty laws for banned politicians : Constitution court judge

Politicians, not the Constitution Court, will decide whether to issue amnesty laws for banned politicians, a Constitutional Court judge said Tuesday.

The court and the judges have duties to rule according to the laws, Wasan Soipisut said.

Wasan said it was the right of politicians to enact the amnesty law for those who were banned by the Constitution Court from politics for five years. The duty of the judges was only ruling according to the laws.

It is not a showing of disrespect to the Constitution court if the politicians banned by the court's ruling could have their political life back by the amnesty laws.

<img src=http://www.thaivisa.com/pics/nationlogo.jpg>

-- The Nation 2009-04-22

It is going to happen

I agree with you. However it will be interesting to see how far it can be pushed by the Peua Thai. I am sure there are factions for and against the amnesty and some of those factions will differ in degrees. The outcome may be an indicator of where power is more or less centred.

Again , it is a mistake to look at it as a for and against dichotomy.

I doubt they can push it to total abrogation of all criminal charges although and this is worrying how far they can push it may well be directly linked to how chaotic and unruly things are. The problem for them with that though is if things get too chaotic and unruly that creates conditions where once again a coup of some description may be supported. I agree it is not about for or against but where. However, the games around where are like walking a tightrope.