Suicide Hotline In Cm

[girlx]

i have a (thai) friend in chiang mai who is apparently a suicide risk. in the US there are various support groups and hotlines for this sort of thing, is there anything like that in chiang mai? i did drive past the psychiatric hospital this morning, so there must be something... any info i can forward to this person would be great.

[neo0569]

try these...cannot verify if there still up as I'm not in Thailand at the moment.

---------

Broken spirits Network

Suicide Hotline[/size]

#02 249-9977

---------

Samaritans of Chiang Mai

PO Box 123

50000

CHIANG MAI

Hotline: (53) 225 977/8

[realthaideal]

Standard thing is to get them to the Psych Hospital Suan Prung. I've been there to pick up medicine b4 as it's a cheap hospital to go to, and seen Thai ppl in major distress and suffering various degrees of anger or depression led in by family members, ambulance drivers, or restrained by police. They take care of them pretty quickly and get them packaged for some rest n quiet. The place has alot of stigma to it for Thais but I have seen many times that ppl who never want to say they are crazy or need mental help, knowing it's better for them, will capitulate and let their friends or family take them there and get them sorted out. The staff there can recognize threats n risks right away and respond appropriately... little can phase them. SP is across from the SW corner of the moat.

Another note - they hold AA meetings there on Thurs in Eng (and I think Thai) for mixed groups of Thais n Farang for anybody who might want to hop on the wagon.

[girlx]

the samaritans websites and numbers don't work. which leaves the psychiatric hospital, which doesn't seem to have any crisis line. i forwarded him the numbers to contact them though, doubt he ever will because as you say there is a stigma with thais going to that place. he's not a good friend and i get annoyed with people who threaten to kill themselves, almost want to tell them to get it over and done with already! but i also grew up learning to take any little threat seriously (had a close relative who was a suicide when i was young, but was resuscitated last minute, it came out of nowhere but looking back there were signs, nobody took them seriously.) seems like there would be more resources here for this sort of thing to offer in these cases.

[sriracha john]

The only legitimate action to take for someone actively talking about suicide is to personally escort that person to a hospital emergency room ASAP and let a trained professional make the evaluation and determine the disposition for them.

Anything short of that is irresponsible.

[girlx]

i disagree- you are not responsible for someone else's choices or their life. i do think you should help if you can though by pointing them towards available resources, especially if you are close to them. also there is a big difference between someone who has a razor to his wrist and is threatening suicide and someone who is just musing that they might someday want to kill themself.

[sriracha john]

i disagree- you are not responsible for someone else's choices or their life. i do think you should help if you can though by pointing them towards available resources, especially if you are close to them. also there is a big difference between someone who has a razor to his wrist and is threatening suicide and someone who is just musing that they might someday want to kill themself.

I would proffer then that you learned little from the incident you described as a young girl. You are in no position to make a determination as to the seriousness of their intent. Unless you ready to accept the possibly catastrophic results of an error in your determination of whether they really intend to harm themselves, it's ALWAYS best to let someone better suited make those sort of life and death decisions.

When people are talking of suicide they are asking for help and the only truly helpful thing you can do for them is to be actually with them until they are properly evaluated by a trained professional.

The seriousness of the potential for lethality from suicide is no different than if they were acutely physically sick. Would you do no more for a person in that situation than offer up a telephone number for them to call someone for first aid instructions or would you take them to the hospital emergency room?

Edited April 22, 2009 by sriracha john

[girlx]

again, i do think you should do what you can to help, but someone else's life and choices are not your responsibility, and if they are going to do the deed, you can not blame yourself whether you offered help or not.

anyway, i hope my friend will be ok. i am off to the states in a couple of hours so taking him to the ER in chiang mai is not an option.

Edited April 22, 2009 by girlx

[sriracha john]

again, i do think you should do what you can to help, but someone else's life and choices are not your responsibility, and if they are going to do the deed, you can not blame yourself whether you offered help or not.

anyway, i hope my friend will be ok. i am off to the states in a couple of hours so taking him to the ER in chiang mai is not an option.

You can have a lifetime of guilt wondering if the help you provided was adequate or if there was something more you could have done to intervene to save someone's life. Perhaps something more pro-active than asking on an internet forum for a telephone number. By being the most pro-active one can be, such as an escorted trip with the person to a hospital emergency room to be evaluated by a trained professional precludes having to go through all that soul-searching and turmoil following a completed suicide.

I should, however, qualify all my general remarks earlier and now, in that they were are all made with the presumption that a person give a rat's ass about the person involved. If someone is not that close of a friend, then the corresponding actions one should feel obligated to take are varied.

Have a nice flight.

Edited April 22, 2009 by sriracha john

[realthaideal]

Didn't see a catfight coming on this one.

I understand your point GirlX, and you must be one tuff cookie believing in individual responsibilities for taking care of yourself in your own life. That is very respectable.

But I'd add a giant 'however' here, and that is what the others are getting at: that people who are suicidal or in the middle of a real breakdown are not sane and cannot be responsible for themselves. Leaving an insane person responsible for their own welfare is not logical simply because (and we'd assume this is likely the case for your OP) this person is not operating rationally and cannot distinguish fact from fiction. This is where a truly caring person should step in and be a proxy prefrontal cortex for the person and help them sort things out, or get sorting out by those with proper training and means of helping.

[girlx]

people who are suicidal or in the middle of a real breakdown are not sane and cannot be responsible for themselves.

that is not true if i recall correctly from school. psychologists say perfectly sane people commit suicide. some of them are not even depressed.

regardless, sure you should help if you can. i am not trying to argue that point.

You are in no position to make a determination as to the seriousness of their intent.

which is why it would be ridiculous to blame yourself after the fact.

[sriracha john]

Didn't see a catfight coming on this one.

Sorry, if seems that way... It is certainly unintentional on my point. I just feel that saving a human life...especially someone that is supposedly a friend... is something that is worthy of some strongly worded phrasing.

[sriracha john]

that is not true if i recall correctly from school. psychologists say perfectly sane people commit suicide. some of them are not even depressed.

Sane/insane are legal terms, not psychological, and are not all that relevant to a situation where someone is crying out for help like your friend is. The point of whether someone is depressed or not is moot if someone dies. Dead is dead.

regardless, sure you should help if you can. i am not trying to argue that point.

and neither am I. What I am saying is that one should help to the utmost of their ability. I'm saying that following a traumatic amputation of a leg in a car accident, help by taking that person to the hospital and not simply offer an aspirin before walking off.

SJ:

You are in no position to make a determination as to the seriousness of their intent.

which is why it would be ridiculous to blame yourself after the fact.

As long you are not ever going to wonder if such a relatively minimal effort expended as escorting a person to a hospital emergency room wouldn't have been more preventative. Otherwise, it's akin to saying in the above scenario, "Gee how was I supposed to know the person was going to die just because their leg was torn off? Afterall, I did do what I could. I did give them an aspirin."

btw... over 5,000 Thais commit suicide every year. How many of those would have been prevented if the recommended course of action I've outlined was followed by family or friends.

Suicide is all about intervention. You either intervene and do so effectively and completely or you don't.

Edited April 22, 2009 by sriracha john

[orang37]

sure you should help if you can. i am not trying to argue that point.

Sawasdee Khrup, GirlX,

I think your friend is dam_n lucky to have a friend like you, when, evidently : you are not in an "intimate" relationship or marriage with them , they're not living with you, not related to you by birth. The fact you care is wonderful ! And I respect your concern and desire to help your friend. I would encourage you not to underestimate the power and possible efficacy of the concern you've already shown your friend !

"Suicide" is an interesting complex phenomenon which comes in many "flavours." Schizophrenics, paranoids, can and do committ sucide

while quite insane : the voices or hallucinations tell them to do it, those who survive report. Other people who are just severely depressed for reasons like being faced with an incurable disease with a future of progressive degeneration effectively euthanize themselves via suicide (and some bear with it, and become living exemplars of the power of mind over body like Stephen Hawking).

There are certain types of suicide related to depression and social alienation that are prevalent in certain age groups, like teenagers. And Japan is a country which is an example of a very advanced culture with a high rate of teenge suicide which suggests the phenomenon is related to intense pressures (like to get into a college), and social change.

Clearly specific losses can trigger suicide : for the Japanese older man retired after a lifetime of being a "saraiman" and home for the first time where his wife is liable to refer to him as a "gokkaburi" (big cockroach), or with another phrase translated as "wet leaves" : suicide rates are high. Is slow death by alcoholism, or getting addicted to whatever, a form of suicide ? No easy answers.

In general, as you may know, more women attempt suicide than men, and more men actually "succeed" at it than women. But a confounding factor is that many suicides are masked by traffic dreaths. Is someone who's quite drunk, and who drives a car, committing suicide : no easy answer to that one. Our culture is just not sure about when putting yourself at risk crosses a line into self-destructive behavior ?

Suicide prevention training in the US usually involves learning to assess potential risk :

1. is the person currently psychotic : are they hearing voices telling them to kill themselves, or having hallucinations in which they are being persecuted, about to be removed to Planet Zed for having implants, and that they can save the entire human race if they just off themselves as a sacrifice after which they will be reborn as the next Messiah (paranoid delusional system).

2. are they a pyschopathic personality with fascination with guns, knives, fantasies of murder, revenge, addiction to violent movies, video-games, fascination with the idea of "snuff movies," etc. some manic depressives when they are "on the way up" can get very violent, and they can get suicidal on the way down to the bottom of they cycle. There are a large number of murders of famliy members, or former fellow employees (going postal) followed by suicide of the murderer.

3. is the person in a deep endogenous depression to the point they are catatonic, that all their thought processes and feelings center around complete despair, hopelessness ?

4. is the person talking directly about suicide, or reporting, indirectly, suicidal thoughts

5. is the person saying they are going to commit suicide. are hey saying they are going to do it NOW.

6. if they say they are going to do it, have they thought about how.

7. if they have thought about how, do they have the means to do it at hand.

8. are they expressing ideas of suicide while catharting or having an emotional breakdown accompanied by crying, etc.

For suicide prevention hotline volunteers in the US, the training I had emphasized factors 4~7 above because there's only so much you can know over the phone (particularly when half the callers are either drunk, or masturbators, or psychopaths playing head games to get an attention fix).

If a lot of suicidal stuff "poured out" during the call (#8 above), in my experience, that was quite healthy, and I had no problem listening patiently to someone who was drunk having an emotional catharsis when it seemed the person probably got drunk to lessen their inhibitions in order to finally ask for help and use a stranger's friendly ear to let the feelings eating at their hearts and souls out. Whether that catharsis resulted in "deep interpersonal change," or was forgotten the next day : metaphysical question ?

I think you did a lot for your friend, and a lot for yourself. May you sleep the sleep of the blessed and the just.

regards ~o:37;

Edited April 22, 2009 by orang37

[vernonschmiddy]

again, i do think you should do what you can to help, but someone else's life and choices are not your responsibility, and if they are going to do the deed, you can not blame yourself whether you offered help or not.

anyway, i hope my friend will be ok. i am off to the states in a couple of hours so taking him to the ER in chiang mai is not an option.

You can have a lifetime of guilt wondering if the help you provided was adequate or if there was something more you could have done to intervene to save someone's life. Perhaps something more pro-active than asking on an internet forum for a telephone number. By being the most pro-active one can be, such as an escorted trip with the person to a hospital emergency room to be evaluated by a trained professional precludes having to go through all that soul-searching and turmoil following a completed suicide.

I should, however, qualify all my general remarks earlier and now, in that they were are all made with the presumption that a person give a rat's ass about the person involved. If someone is not that close of a friend, then the corresponding actions one should feel obligated to take are varied.

Have a nice flight.

Funny...Sometimes if you are that concerned about a person's welfare , you will do whatever it takes to help them and give yourself peace of mind that you did all that you could..That is the question..Did you? Could you have taken this person to a professional? Could you change your flight since your concern was so great?

I think that you have shown a lot of compassion about someone you know but sometimes you just have to take action and prioritise things like this above everything else. You know, it comes down to you. None of us has the right to judge you for your actions. If you don't know this person that well, perhaps even making an enquiry may be enough. For some , it may not be enough.The fact is that you have shown some concern and that's a good thing...Something good will always come out of discussing subjects like this. Who knows, this may jolt some other person on this forum, who is in a similar predicament to you, to take some action. The most important thing is that you noticed and asked questions.

[john b good]

Sometimes the signs are there and sometimes one can do something about it but at other time it wil happen anyway.

Some years back a good friend, a women (who I was not romantically or intimately involved with) she told me that she had been squirreling a whole buch of medication away (she had told me) and then began talking about doing the job (suiciding)

I telephoned her GP and he said to try to get her to give me the accumulation of tablets, which I managed to persuade her to do. Then to destroy them. The pills when all opened up were about 100mm deep in a large plastic bucket. It took me forever to flush them down the dunny. I then phoned the GP again and he called her in on the pretext that he had not seen her for some time. He managed to bring her mental state of health up and then go on to discuss it.

The long and short of it was it (the sucide) didn't happen. She never knew that I had any involvement other than the disposing of the pills.

She some years later died of a heart attack.

As to the present stuation here it may not be so easy or practically. First one cannot just put someone in a straight jacket and march them off to the likes of Suan Prung.

Another thing here in the realm is the propensity for Thai's to commit suicide. Many have a very delicate threshold and whilst many can handle adversity (and some of lifes little set backs) many cannot.

In 1997 it was reported in the Bangkok Post that Thai's were committing suicide at the rate of two every hours "and that was just in Bangkok alone.

I know that there will be the usual ones to poo hoo (or redicule) that statement but those were the facts as reported during the financial crisis that kicked in on 02 July 1997

If you have such a friendship with the "at threat person" that would allow you talking about it quietly suggest that a talk with someone might help he / she, to see things in a more positive light.

And finally if she is not concerned for herself try to explain to her the stigma and the hurt she would inflict upon her family and friends. That might sway her a little.

[geriatrickid]

This being a "foreign" land for westerners, that means that all sorts of unknown social barriers and taboos apply including language barriers. The best guidance anyone could give remains as stated. It is the only option that should be attempted if one does not have the training and language skills to assess the emotional state of the subject.

The only legitimate action to take for someone actively talking about suicide is to personally escort that person to a hospital emergency room ASAP and let a trained professional make the evaluation and determine the disposition for them.Anything short of that is irresponsible.

What was the point of this post if one is going to find an excuse not to act? Was it to bring attention to the OP?? I can't believe that SJ had to justify his rational position. He deserved a bit of courtesy for his compassion. Unbelievable.

[girlx]

great post orang37

[sassienie]

Psychiatric hospital.

Isn`t that just a posh name for the old term, Madhouse?

Edited April 25, 2009 by sassienie

[sriracha john]

Psychiatric hospital.

Isn`t that just a posh name for the old term, Madhouse?

Only if you think it's 1909.

Edited April 25, 2009 by sriracha john

[IanForbes]

Psychiatric hospital.

Isn`t that just a posh name for the old term, Madhouse?

Only if you think it's 1909.

Depends on the establishment and where it is located. There are many places where it would be called a "madhouse" by western standards.

I also commend girlx with trying to find a few answers for a friend. She is NOT her brother's keeper! And, she WAS leaving on a flight back to the USA. She did all she could.

If a person decides to commit suicide then that is their OWN DECISION. Too many people say they are going to commit suicide for no other reason than trying to manipulate others. I won't go into a long winded explanation because Orang37 already gave a reasonable reply.

Edited April 25, 2009 by IanForbes

[FolkGuitar]

sure you should help if you can. i am not trying to argue that point.

Sawasdee Khrup, GirlX,

I think your friend is dam_n lucky to have a friend like you, when, evidently : you are not in an "intimate" relationship or marriage with them , they're not living with you, not related to you by birth. The fact you care is wonderful ! And I respect your concern and desire to help your friend. I would encourage you not to underestimate the power and possible efficacy of the concern you've already shown your friend !

"Suicide" is an interesting complex phenomenon which comes in many "flavours." Schizophrenics, paranoids, can and do committ sucide

while quite insane : the voices or hallucinations tell them to do it, those who survive report. Other people who are just severely depressed for reasons like being faced with an incurable disease with a future of progressive degeneration effectively euthanize themselves via suicide (and some bear with it, and become living exemplars of the power of mind over body like Stephen Hawking).

There are certain types of suicide related to depression and social alienation that are prevalent in certain age groups, like teenagers. And Japan is a country which is an example of a very advanced culture with a high rate of teenge suicide which suggests the phenomenon is related to intense pressures (like to get into a college), and social change.

Clearly specific losses can trigger suicide : for the Japanese older man retired after a lifetime of being a "saraiman" and home for the first time where his wife is liable to refer to him as a "gokkaburi" (big cockroach), or with another phrase translated as "wet leaves" : suicide rates are high. Is slow death by alcoholism, or getting addicted to whatever, a form of suicide ? No easy answers.

In general, as you may know, more women attempt suicide than men, and more men actually "succeed" at it than women. But a confounding factor is that many suicides are masked by traffic dreaths. Is someone who's quite drunk, and who drives a car, committing suicide : no easy answer to that one. Our culture is just not sure about when putting yourself at risk crosses a line into self-destructive behavior ?

Suicide prevention training in the US usually involves learning to assess potential risk :

1. is the person currently psychotic : are they hearing voices telling them to kill themselves, or having hallucinations in which they are being persecuted, about to be removed to Planet Zed for having implants, and that they can save the entire human race if they just off themselves as a sacrifice after which they will be reborn as the next Messiah (paranoid delusional system).

2. are they a pyschopathic personality with fascination with guns, knives, fantasies of murder, revenge, addiction to violent movies, video-games, fascination with the idea of "snuff movies," etc. some manic depressives when they are "on the way up" can get very violent, and they can get suicidal on the way down to the bottom of they cycle. There are a large number of murders of famliy members, or former fellow employees (going postal) followed by suicide of the murderer.

3. is the person in a deep endogenous depression to the point they are catatonic, that all their thought processes and feelings center around complete despair, hopelessness ?

4. is the person talking directly about suicide, or reporting, indirectly, suicidal thoughts

5. is the person saying they are going to commit suicide. are hey saying they are going to do it NOW.

6. if they say they are going to do it, have they thought about how.

7. if they have thought about how, do they have the means to do it at hand.

8. are they expressing ideas of suicide while catharting or having an emotional breakdown accompanied by crying, etc.

For suicide prevention hotline volunteers in the US, the training I had emphasized factors 4~7 above because there's only so much you can know over the phone (particularly when half the callers are either drunk, or masturbators, or psychopaths playing head games to get an attention fix).

If a lot of suicidal stuff "poured out" during the call (#8 above), in my experience, that was quite healthy, and I had no problem listening patiently to someone who was drunk having an emotional catharsis when it seemed the person probably got drunk to lessen their inhibitions in order to finally ask for help and use a stranger's friendly ear to let the feelings eating at their hearts and souls out. Whether that catharsis resulted in "deep interpersonal change," or was forgotten the next day : metaphysical question ?

I think you did a lot for your friend, and a lot for yourself. May you sleep the sleep of the blessed and the just.

regards ~o:37;

I think this needs to be re-posted. It was brilliant.

Suicide is a very complex issue, with no fixed format. Each and every requires different responses.

I think that girlx did well to help an acquaintance. I'm sure if it were a close friend or relative, she probably would have done even more.

We all feel different levels of 'responsibility,' depending upon our backgrounds. All of them are correct... whether we agree or not.

[sriracha john]

I think this needs to be re-posted. It was brilliant.

Suicide is a very complex issue, with no fixed format. Each and every requires different responses.

I think that girlx did well to help an acquaintance. I'm sure if it were a close friend or relative, she probably would have done even more.

We all feel different levels of 'responsibility,' depending upon our backgrounds. All of them are correct... whether we agree or not.

I think it brilliantly depicts why 99% of the time it would be inappropriate for a foreigner to attempt to try and make many of these described assessments that someone outside of their culture and language is experiencing.

Suicide is, indeed, a complex issue... which is why it's best evaluated by a trained professional in a hospital setting which really is the same format and provides for the same response whenever talk of suicide is encountered.

Not sure exactly what girlx did to actually help her acquaintance... but it at least the discussion here has provided an opportunity for others on the forum to discover what the best course of action is if a similar situation should occur to a Thai known to them.

Edited April 26, 2009 by sriracha john

[sassienie]

I have 3 problems:

1. Financial

2. Sexual

3. Emotional

Because of problem no 1, I’m not getting any no 2, that has created problem no 3.