Heirarchal Society And Egalitarianism.

[G54]

When Sheryl posted in a recent topic about the Heirarchal Society and Egalitarian, it got me to thinking ( a dangerous pastime ).

So I want to open a debate on this.

Apologies to Sheryl if I am taking what she posted and getting things muddled up.

Bear in mind please that this is as I see it at the moment in a general way and am hoping to be educated as we go along, as I hope others will be also. If I am getting some of this @rse about tit, then please correct me

Thailand being Heirarchal, along we come to visit and then decide to stay on and live here.

We are seen by many who live below the upper & some of the middle classes in society as rich. We are - in the main - Caucasian, also. Therefore being seen as rich and also white puts us in a higher class. ( I DO appreciate we are not all rich!!) We then mingle with lower class people and then we tend to upset the Heirarchal balance. We are mingling with people who would be seen as beneath us in many ways in the social ladder.

If we tend to associate with Issan type folk who are darker skinned and poor, we bring ourselves down. If we associate with some woman who works in a shop, runs a market stall or in a factory, we are bringing ourselves down also. Or we are seen as associating with lower class people. While, conversely they feel they are being shunted up the ladder now they have one of us.

When we begin a relationship with 'lower class' people, that then means we are putting ourselves in a relationship where we are seen as being 'above' our partner, in respect of the way Thai people see it?

This then breaks the rules that Thai people are used to. The rules then become confused. We are also seen as moving that woman up a class or more. She is now seen as a woman who has a 'rich' Farang. Her and her family expectations rise. Hence the land, house, car expectations begin

With raised expectations the normal Heirarchal rules no longer apply, or are eroded? And when we do not live up to these new found expectations we are letting the woman and her family down and also causing confusion to the rules?

This can lead to conflict. That conflict can be 'scams' as we see them, but not seen that way by a Thai.

That conflict can also manifest itself into the woman (and her family) now working on ways to acquire the status level they believe they should now have? (We see it as being scammed / conned by the woman, while they do not see it that way?) Resulting in us 'Farang' ending up losing the land, houses and cars we buy to make life better for our loved ones because we believe in Egalitarianism in general and are often fooled by the talk of love, togetherness and happiness we look for in a relationship. We think that to share, to be equal is the norm.

OK, in some cases we are seen as easy targets. Because we tend to believe in fairness we tend to go with the flow and do not see we are being hit upon until it is too late. Plans are made, plots are hatched to 'deprive us' while enhancing their own lifestyle. But that is not where I really want this topic to be heading. It is not about the greedy, plotting people. It is about us joining into a system we do not always understand or appreciate.

Do we also upset these same rules by Waiing to a girl who serves our beer and food in the restaurant?

If we - as I think in some cases we are - older than the g/f / b/f mother surely that also must cause some Heirarchal conflict if the younger wai to the elder?

How then does this Heirarchal system have a bearing on our relationships with a younger, often poorer partner? Why does it tend to lead to conflict?

Come on, you who understand, educate myself and others and please correct my mistakes as I have written about this.

[thaiwanderer]

generally it doesn't affect the structure at all as farangs simply are and never will be part of it, they will also never trully understand it (though i respect you for trying!)

[dave9988]

looks like nobody is interested in discussing this very interesting op. i guess its too many words. you get more responses when you write simple op's like:

"my gf is dark skin. i am white skin. i am rich. i am bald. i don't want to marry a bar girl." -- An OP like that, it will get about 300 responses. Yours gets 2.

[G54]

looks like nobody is interested in discussing this very interesting op. i guess its too many words. you get more responses when you write simple op's like:

"my gf is dark skin. i am white skin. i am rich. i am bald. i don't want to marry a bar girl." -- An OP like that, it will get about 300 responses. Yours gets 2.

Too true, or not controversial enough, as in my ex g/f scammed me for 1700g of milk a week

No problem

[flying]

Very interesting hypothesis

You know for anyone thinking or anyone who cares

Having spent time with my wife there I often wonder what that

underlying buzz is. What your describing could be true.

Although my wife is very light skinned (northern Thai )

I am not so sure it is a light or dark issue. But your premise has me wonder

if in fact many Thais feel like those folks have somehow cheated their way up?

Of course I would also add that the majority of Falangs I have seen there could

give a hoot about any of it.

[Sabum]

Do we also upset these same rules by Waiing to a girl who serves our beer and food in the restaurant?

OMG you are one of those falangs that Wais a young girl serving you beer... lol

[teacup]

Yawn.....too long OP,...with so many points but understandable

ok here is my take....on some of your points

Absolute egalitarianism is impossible in any society, esp that we are now living in capitalist society the world over.

The "haves" will always try to keep the "have not's" down. With more money comes more power. With more power comes hierarchy. With hierarchy there can never be egalitarianism.

Seriously, you know and I know that.....equality is just only a concept, not a reality. Even in nature, very little can be truly said to be equal.

That's my logic

Edited April 21, 2009 by teacup

[geriatrickid]

Maybe you'll be surprised if I say that those Thais that are successful and/or educated share the same disdain of foreigner+ "low end" Thai relationships as foreigners do. By low end I don't mean in terms of wealth or education, but I mean in how people behave and conduct themselves. The foreigners that do take up with the "low end" Thais are almost always "low end" themselves. How many sane successful people do you know would take up with a hooker type person? They might use the services of one, but they almost never marry them in real life. It only happens in the movies.

The Thais are much better at concealing their contempt of such relationships than westerners and they aren't as clueless as we think they are, at least those that have built up a business or had a decent education.

This is a country of 60million+. If only 30% of the population is wealthy or has money, that would then put them in the "middle class" or above, that's 18million people that the foreigners who marry into the low end segment will never socialize with. 18million people is a big number. It's not an issue for the foreigners if they stay within their sociodemographic group. However, if they try to get out of it, that's when they will experience the obstacles.

I'm not being a snob. Those people that have experienced the barriers will understand what I mean. In plain english, if you are an uncouth rude slob, even if you have some money or a uni diploma and try to get into one of the hip parties in Phuket or Bangkok, you will be told to go away. If you are one of the "beautiful" people the door opens wide. (Or if you are an ugly farang like me you better have some "beautiful"Thai friends with money or else you are relegated to the depressing hooker bars for eternity.) Thailand operates the same way as western countries. it's quite simple: People can be petty and snotty no matter what nationality they are.

[dominique355]

I am always surprised at posts like this. I have been in Thailand (in and out) since 1995 and I have many friends in Thailand from all "classes", some with very high education, some even in the parliament, and some poor "uneducated" farmers, and I have seen many places in this country, but I have never been able to say "Thai" people are like this or are like that.

I know someone, who is like this and another who has a different opinion and behaves differently. But nothing gives me the right and the capacity to say "Thai people do this and think like that".

So I just admire farangs, who know it all and totally understood how things are here. I wish I knew too and understand it all too.

I, for myself, I don't fit into the OP's classification. OK I married a Thai girl (well, she was already a lady at 32, when I met her), she has a university degree, was able to own her own house before we met, shes come from a rather poor background, but her skin is white and she is not from Isaan. Nobody looks down at her, or at least we haven't noticed it. She, or we don't look down on poorer people and we don't look up to richer people. And that was the same when we lived in Switzerland.

Sorry, I cannot follow the OP.

[GuestHouse]

How many sane successful people do you know would take up with a hooker type person?

I know a great many who have.

It's something I can't understand, professional expats who have access to well educated middle and upper middle class Thais choose to marry or settle with women out of the 'water trade'. Not the odd case of this happening, rather the majority.

-------

I distinguish 'professional expat' here, because anyone working in a reasonable sized Thai or international company in Thailand will have access to Thais of a social class that a tourist or holiday visitor might rarely have.

Edited April 22, 2009 by GuestHouse

[dave9988]

My observation is that many seek this type of relationship with a simple girl. It means they don't have to do things like worry about how her family will see the real them. Having to actually communicate with the girl and her family. Essentially, a relationship with a well educated girl would be like dating a western girl whereas a relationship with a bargirl is more like having a second wife than a first wife.

that might be totally wrong but from what i have witnessed i think its fairly true for these types of guys who can get a coworker but instead choose Ning from some smokey bar.

Edited April 22, 2009 by dave9988

[dave9988]

as for the dark skin thing, you guys really can not get it through your heads that there are many wealthy dark skinned thais, can you? its not just skin color that gives away your social class. its dress, speech, posture, manners, etc.

[teacup]

as for the dark skin thing, you guys really can not get it through your heads that there are many wealthy dark skinned thais, can you? its not just skin color that gives away your social class. its dress, speech, posture, manners, etc.

agree.......w/ your observations

Edited April 22, 2009 by teacup

[bkkjames]

as for the dark skin thing, you guys really can not get it through your heads that there are many wealthy dark skinned thais, can you? its not just skin color that gives away your social class. its dress, speech, posture, manners, etc.

agree.......w/ your observations

don't forget the long finger nail on the pinky

[teacup]

as for the dark skin thing, you guys really can not get it through your heads that there are many wealthy dark skinned thais, can you? its not just skin color that gives away your social class. its dress, speech, posture, manners, etc.

agree.......w/ your observations

don't forget the long finger nail on the pinky

I had a friend that had one long nail and he grew it to discretely pick his nose tho