More foreigners 'under the radar'

[MaiChai]

It occurs to me that if the criteria is much higher for showing money to get a longer visa, more people will use the tourist/non immigrant multiple entry visas and visa runs to stay. Wouldn't this defeat the object of increasing the fees, and just move people to a less visible method of staying? Obviously immigration could work out the figures by trawing through the records on their computer, but this would require quite a lot of work. Which then begs the question, will the authorities allow this method of staying in LOS to continue (multiple entry visas/allowing unlimited number of tourists visas)?

Maybe its a case that the authorities think too many foreigners are staying, and increasing fees will have the desired affect of trimming down the numbers?

Just wondered what other people think.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

If you have a valid reason to obtain a Non-Immigrant visa, or can create one, there'll be no problem as far as I can see. But tourist visa's are likely to restricted as to numbers of entries, and ' walks ' across borders holding no visa at all will not be a feature of opportunity in the near future. The Government wants people on proper visa's.

[Bob Chittie]

Dr. Pat Pong, you can read my post I just wrote regarding my visa run. Any idea when they will stop the consecutive 30 day no visa entries? Is this information solid? As I wrote, according to a lot of people on this board, it has already happened, but that's just not true, at least at Mae Sai.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

It is said to be coming in by Ministerial Regulation Bob, but I don't know when it will come in, but the way things are going, I doubt that it will be too far away. A lot is being said about the subject, and the term de facto resident comes out of the Ministry of the Interior.

[mrentoul]

and the term de facto resident comes out of the Ministry of the Interior

D*mn - I thought I invented it!

[dr_Pat_Pong]

The bastards nicked it from you then Michael

[MaiChai]

It then begs the question, if they are going to stop consecutive 30 day visas, will they make it easier getting a long term visa? Otherwise a lot of people won't fit into one of the catagories, and we will end up with people fiddling and lieing to fit into one of the categories or moving elsewhere. Specifically people staying long term who arn't retired, working, married to a Thai/has Thai children, running a business, etc. A lot of people will be forced to move to another cheap country (Phillipines, etc) if they don't fit a category or don't wish to lie, and this will have an effect on forex being brought into the country, demand for seats on planes, rental of condos/accomodation, etc, etc. If Thailand looses its cheap great place to live reputation, people will stop comming (apart from the tourists).

I suppose it depends on whether the Thais want to maintain the status quo, or kick out all the cheap living long termers.

[mrentoul]

lot of people will be forced to move to another cheap country (Phillipines, etc) if they don't fit a category or don't wish to lie, and this will have an effect on forex being brought into the country, demand for seats on planes, rental of condos/accomodation, etc, etc.

I fear we're getting back into this tedious argument about how valubale to Thailand are the long-term stayers who are retired or who do not work or run a business.

As they make up but a small number of the 60 million-plus people living here, most of whom have real lives, I don't think the impact of their departure will show up immediately in a slump in GDP, growth, the property market or anything else.

By definition, almost, these people play little if any role in the local economy...ergo, the financial or econmic impact of their leaving won't be huge.

[Jai di]

who do not work or run a business.

As they make up but a small number of the 60 million-plus people living here, most of whom have real lives

So unless one runs a business, one has no life?

What if one is in a position of not having to work, do's it mean that one has no life?

[MaiChai]

I didn't really want to kick off lots of debate again. Lets wait and see what happens. I feel there has been alot of debate with very little real news (apart from peoples first hand experiences, which are valuable IMHO).

[mrentoul]

So unless one runs a business, one has no life?

What if one is in a position of not having to work, do's it mean that one has no life?

I'm pleased you picked that up. You appear to be an exception - you're rich enough not to work.

I suggest you look at it like this: do you feel you have much in common with westerners living here who have no money, but still choose not to work? The type living off their wives, for example.

Maybe you do. In which case, maybe you'd like to share your hard-earned wealth with them. I'm sure they'd appreciate the gesture.

[JonnieB]

there is a legitimate question being raised here.  there are many foreigners living in thailand who would not fit into the requirements for working or retired visas, and don't want to invest/start a business or marry a thai in order to live in this country.  currently, we live here on legimate tourist visas or "O" visas if they can get them and make our visa runs when required.  these people will be stuffed if major changes are made, without thinking, to the system.

lets start with the premise that there are many reasons why people want to live in thailand.   some come to work (legally) and get the required visas/work permits, others are over 50 and meet the financial requirements for their legal 1-year visa extensions.  however, there are also many (who knows the exact number) who are financially secure at an early age and enjoy living in thailand and would like to make it their second home.  however, we don't have to work and are not yet 50 years old.  we all rent upscale apts. in bangkok, pattaya, chiang mai, and other places, most of us have maids (so contribute to employment), most end up buying a motorcycle or car or both, maybe also buying a condo or house, spend money on food, medical expenses, in-country travel, restaurants, tv, and all manner of other necessities of life.  many also support a women too ("wife" or girlfriend).  however, we may not want to make this relationship official for many reasons...especially just to get a long-term visa.  in short, we contribute to the economy ( i agree that our absense would not have any drastic effect on the thai economy as a whole but would on the maids and landlords involved) by our presence here and take out little or nothing out.

i agree that there are also. for want of a better word, many farang bums here also, and i can understand and sympathize with the thais wanting these people out.  but i would hope that they will come up with requirements that would allow us financially secure but younger residents to stay, while at the same time, making it possible to get the bums out.

i hope it doesn't get to the point where there are only the farang workers and the "older" retireds who can easily and legally live in thailand.

[MaiChai]

Should I take the bait? mrentoul, I can't think there are many farang bums living off their Thai wives. Also Thais have this attitude of live and let live. Certain individuals on this forum want to tell people how to live their lives. What makes Thailand an interesting place is that people are allowed to live as they wish, which has allowed various groups of people who live here to get on with each other for so long (buddhist Thais, Muslim Thais, immigrant Chinese, and hopefully now westerners, etc). The Thais are very tolerant of people from other religions and cultures.

[pnustedt]

there are many foreigners living in thailand who would not fit

The arguments always seem to follow the same path, ending up with a slanging match and posters criticising each other's lifestyles. I can see this thread going down that route.

It is not important whether or not you consider yourself worthy and an asset to Thailand, what is important for you to stay or settle in Thailand is whether or not you comply with the Thai immigration laws and regulations. It is their (the Thai government's) ballpark and they decide who will play on it.

[KenUdon]

I suppose it depends on whether the Thais want to maintain the status quo, or kick out all the cheap living long termers

MaiChai, you will find the answer to that in the new thread about Retirement Visa Extension.

[mrentoul]

Yes i am fortunate, i choose my lifestyle (i could live anywhere in fact), but just for today, i am here. I have absolutely nothing against anybody.

Lighten up. An attempt at humour.

These things are better said over a drink, I suspect (but you won't see me at the border).

Should I take the bait?

Best not to, I suspect. I don't know what came over me. I was almost serious there for a moment.

It is their (the Thai government's) ballpark and they decide who will play on it.

Quite. Some people here have been trying to say as much for weeks.

[simon43]

This comment about wanting to live in Thailand, but not wishing to run a business, (because you have enough money anyway and are not retired etc).

I fall into that category.  I have a UK business which generates good money for me, and I can sit on the beach in Phuket and let the money roll in.  That would be nice to do on a 30 day tourist visa, but that is not operating within the strict interpretation of that visa.

So you need to make changes to ensure that you do fall within the scope of the relevant visa.  In my case, I have set up a Thai ltd company wich will operate as a means of justifying my long-term stay in Thailand.  I don't need the revenue generated by this Thai company, but it is one way to ensure compliance with the visa rules here. So I have a legit company, office, staff etc and a work permit.  And this company might even make a profit!!

So for a modest outlay I have the right papers, visa etc and a blossoming business....and no need to see anyone at the border...

[mrentoul]

So you need to make changes to ensure that you do fall within the scope of the relevant visa.  In my case, I have set up a Thai ltd company wich will operate as a means of justifying my long-term stay in Thailand. So I have a legit company, office, staff etc and a work permit.  And this company might even make a profit!!

So for a modest outlay I have the right papers, visa etc and a blossoming business....and no need to see anyone at the border...

Well put, and a great story. Would you mind saying what the company does?

[JonnieB]

simon...that is definitely one way to do it and i am sure many more of us in siimiliar positions will start to look into doing the same.

it just seems to me that instead of again, doing the runaround of setting-up a business, hiring staff, and getting something going, it should be possible for the thais to figure out some way to have the "idle rich" live here legally without having to resort to opening up a company.  l

like i said, me and my friends only pump money into thailand and of course pay taxes and stuff and take little or nothing back in gov't services or benefits.  so, we are no drain on the economy in any sense.  

why not just extend or modify the retirement program by removing the age criteria.  that would seem simple to do and accomplish the task of keeping financially viable foreigners living and spending in thailand and the less viable ones would have to leave.

like ken has said, it seems they want rich farangs only...so be it.  so if one is rich, why not make it easy for us to live here.

[pnustedt]

it seems they want rich farangs only...so be it.  so if one is rich, why not make it easy for us to live here.

How much do you reckon it takes to be a rich farang in Thailand? i.e. all below that point should be refused residency.

[Jai di]

it seems they want rich farangs only...so be it.  so if one is rich, why not make it easy for us to live here.

How much do you reckon it takes to be a rich farang in Thailand? i.e. all below that point should be refused residency.

what if a person is not married, is below the age limit, dont give a hoot about anything, but is as rich as ####.

Can i get a longer visa than a tourist visa, what if i show money in a thai bank account in a thai bank book, would i be able to get a non immigrant visa, is that all i would need at a Thai consulate , my thai bank book?

see you at the consulate ..........maybe.

[JonnieB]

pnustedt

i don't know what the financial requirement should be but i am sure a "fair" amount could be arrived at by the government taking into account the cost of living here in thailand.  i have no quams about the thais having such a requirement.  i just wish they would have a program for people under 30 as they do for retired folks.  not only that, but make it uniform from immigration office to immigration office, and stick to it.  that way, thailand would benefit by having financially viable long-term residents (something they claim to want) and these residents could go about their lives...buying cars, houses, and generally enjoying life and not have to worry about maybe suddenly, at the next visa extension or application, being denied an extension or visa and having their lives totally turned upside down.

i do know malaysia has a "second home" program for both people over 50 (retired) and those under 50 (young and rich...because you're not allowed to work).  the financial requirements are about double what thailand requires...either in the form of a bank deposit (around $40,000) or about $3000 monthly income.  this seems entirely reasonable considering the more advanced state of the economy in malaysia and the higher cost of living there. i could even get a permit to import my thai maid under the program!!!

in return for spending your money in malaysia (a thank you so to speak), you get a 5 YEAR visa (yes, that is not a misprint...not a stinkin 1 year visa) AND a multiple re-entry permit (no more separate applications when you want to go in and out of the country).  application procedures are similiar to those in thailand and the documents required are basically what you need here too.  

somehow, i imagine the application process is also more pleasant and less stressful in malaysia than it often seems to be here in thailand.

i can't help but wonder if having all our fellow compatiots here for the past several decades as sex-tourists is now redounding to our disadvantage when it comes to thais thinking of us as desirable lont-term residents.  those countries without millions of sex tourists per year still it seems, want us to come and live amongst them.

here is the link for the "Malaysia My Second Home" program

My Second Hope

[simon43]

JonnieB - I did not know that this Malaysian program also applies to the 'rich' under 50s. (And I can't see that mentioned on your url link).  Can you indicate where this is mentioned?

I'm currently settled in Phuket but Lankawi or Penang are only a short hop away.  Might be a better option for the future...

[parryhandy]

This comment about wanting to live in Thailand, but not wishing to run a business, (because you have enough money anyway and are not retired etc).

I fall into that category.  I have a UK business which generates good money for me, and I can sit on the beach in Phuket and let the money roll in.  That would be nice to do on a 30 day tourist visa, but that is not operating within the strict interpretation of that visa.

So you need to make changes to ensure that you do fall within the scope of the relevant visa.  In my case, I have set up a Thai ltd company wich will operate as a means of justifying my long-term stay in Thailand.  I don't need the revenue generated by this Thai company, but it is one way to ensure compliance with the visa rules here. So I have a legit company, office, staff etc and a work permit.  And this company might even make a profit!!

So for a modest outlay I have the right papers, visa etc and a blossoming business....and no need to see anyone at the border...

I honestly cannot see why anybody in their right mind would want to set up a business in thailand.Unless you have a product or service that they desperately need and cannot do without (and cannot run themselves after a while) your on an inevitable hiding.You have absolutely no rights as a citizen and as some people have mentioned on here in the case of any dispute the thai side will always be taken no matter what the evidence.

Surely if you are rich enough to set up a company (1 million baht plus ) would it not be easy and cheaper to just buy or rent a similar home in another country similar to thailand and just travel in and out when the expected visa changes are announced in july ?

???

[JonnieB]

it's easy to miss...they forgot to enter a line/space.  it's after they describe the 2 ways to satisfy the financial requirements for applicants over 50 and if they meet the requirments they will get their 5 year social visit visa.  it runs on and says "Applicants below 50 years of age..."

it's strange though, i have read it several times and unless i am missing something (spending too much time looking at my computer screen) the financial requirements seem to be the same for both over and under 50 people.

this program makes alot of sense to me.  i am sick and tired of all this visa/immigration bs in thailand.  especially for people under 50 who are financially secure.  why should i be forced to set-up a company, marry a native girl, or be forced to fly in and out of the country every 2-3 months just to have the luxury to dump $3-4 every month in thailand.  why not go to a country that might actually appriciate this spending.

i too am considering it as a viable option for me.  the climate and general tropical ambience is more or less the same as thailand, food is good, infrustucture (roads, communications, internet) are way better, and the cost of living not that much higher.  if you are past the chasing the girls every night stage, i sure the nightlife in malaysia will still meet your needs.  

just the fact that they have established this program (and promote it...last edition of time asia edition had full page ad extolling the virtues of living in malaysia under this program) and the fact they appear to really want us down there makes it appealing.  the thais always make you feel that they are doing you a favor granting you the right to stay here, instead of acknowledging the fact that both parties receive benefits by our living here.  they also seem to like to keep the knife over our heads by seeming constantly reminding us how precarous our stay here is and that it cane be denied at any time by an unsympathetic immigration official or a change in the rules.

[MaiChai]

Setting up a company just to stay seems rediculous.

The message we are getting from the Thais at the moment is that you are only welcome if you are mega rich and willing to splash money about like an idiot. If I was rich this would p!ss me off. Kind of "rich farang=idiot easy to rip off". Not the kind of environment I would like to live in.

The Thais are responsible for the sex tourist; they allow the whole thing to operate, so people come. Clean up your act at home instead of blaming others.

[JonnieB]

okay i get it now...

for 50+ you need bank deposit of R150,000 OR monthly income of R10,000.

for under 50, you need bank deposit of R150,000 AND monthly income of R10,000.

so they want younger people to be basically richer than the older retired peoplel in the program.  makes sense, i guess, figuring that younger have a longer life expectancy so will require more capital to live off of and also, they seem to think that a younger [married couple] may have kids to support too and therefore require more income/assets.

still not a bad deal in either case.

[simon43]

ParryHandy - I agree with you to a point, but my business is mobile phone text messaging services etc. In Europe I'm considered one of the top 'techies' in this sector (apparently!!) - and I reckon i would have no problems in operating a profitable business in Thailand along similar lines.

But this Malaysian program does look of interest!! I am honestly tempted!!

[parryhandy]

ParryHandy - I agree with you to a point, but my business is mobile phone text messaging services etc. In Europe I'm considered one of the top 'techies' in this sector (apparently!!) - and I reckon i would have no problems in operating a profitable business in Thailand along similar lines.

But this Malaysian program does look of interest!! I am honestly tempted!!

Fair play to you then sounds like you could make it pay in a lot of countries.

Good luck whatever you decide.

[JonnieB]

if one were to move to malaysia under this program, one could always come to thailand for up to 3 month stays for additional sanook on a T visa.  man, what would that be like, coming to thailand as a real tourist...just think of that.  wouldn't that feel strange.

and you wouldn't have to be nicy-nicy to all the immigration officials.  if one gave you an attitude...you could just give them an attitute right back...in their face.  who cares, you now live in a country that really wants you...not in one where your are merely tolerated.

i am venting a little and i don't know why.  i have actually had pretty good experiences recently with the immigration folks.  just don't like the uncertainty of it all here.  in malay, once you qualify, you are set for at least 5 years provided you keep you nose clean.