Boreholes

[Beardog]

Hi Again ,

I need some help as the 2nd outfit out here found water at 12 meters & went through the the first layer of granite 12- 16 meters & then chased it 4 more meters down.

our well is 1 meter down(due to high amount of rain.

our neighbors at a similar elevation (around the corner 1 kilo away) are at minimum he 25-45 meters down The bore at 25 meters has already dried out & now is again with water due to the rain. The 30 meter has a ton of water & is only .1 tenth (if that kilo from the 25 meter bore. Everyone around here seems to think that 20 meters the contractor is trying to do a 85,000 baht burn & leave early . The man is a friend & has purchaced 3 rai on our property , so he is my neighbor & I want to look out for him & realize from experience that Thailand is full of burn artists that never honor a guaranty & just claim bankruptcy as an excuse before they leave town. at 12 meters he would see water as the water table where they are digging water is at 1/3 a meter now.Unfortunately I know the best time would have been at the low point of rain in the season, but it wasn't an option this time around.

To make it more interesting the lazy contractor broke the last extension & the smaller drill bit & it dropped back in the hole & there is no pvc pipe in the bottom to at least guide the bit down straight- That & he didn't adequately clean out the drill casing.

Colin has drilled oil for 45 years & has told me water & oil are similar in the cleaning out portion. so the bit is probably in a nice 45% angle never to be recovered(but that is another story & his problem)

Does 20 meters sound possible if everyone with successful boreholes at this elevation is 30 meters & up & can you dig to far & compromise the water quality? Wells I understand- but bore holes(since I don't have one & never did one I am at a loss & hate to see him have to pay twice for the job.

Thanks for any help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Barry

Edited April 29, 2009 by Beardog

[teletiger]

I presume you have read the pinned "borehole' topic? I would be siding with the neighbours on this one.

Regards.

Edit: I'm being lazy.

Underground water runs in layers. (aquafers) The first layer is the one most prone to drying up (ironically, in the dry season when you need it most) and ground pollution problems. Drilling down to the second layer and depending on depth, some of the problems from the first layer may still exist. Drilling down to the third and forth layers, you are virtually guaranteed (especially the forth) clean abundant water.

Tell him to drill down to 40/45 mt, as per your neighbours.

regards.

Edited April 29, 2009 by teletiger

[Maizefarmer]

This post emphasizes the importance of:

a) get as much info as one can regards water table flucuation in your area form season to season, going back as many years as one can (idealy 10plus) before deciding on the depth to which you want to sink a borehole. Sucj records do exsist - the authorties monitor water tables across Thailand very carefully.

having a written contract with a contractor that clearly states the depth to which is has been agreed thebore will be sunk (not just a "till we hit water, plus x amount of addtional meters or feet").

c) taking a good look at the contractors equipment (before hand) and getting him to explain how he is going to go about the job i.e. establish beforehand that he is up to the job (also speak to others who he sunk boreholes for and get their opinion).

..... of course none of this addresses Beardog's current problem - but yes, in short: sounds like an attempt to have you over and get away with doing a half job.

Been your neighbour, it will preferable to try and sort it out ammiccably with him. - check your message box for my repy to the message you sent me earlier.

[Maizefarmer]

Beardog - just pm'd you again with some ideas to get the bit out the hole - that's your starting point: get that bit out else youre going to loose the hole. Once its up (and its to difficult to get up) we can deal with the contractor.

[Gary A]

Different areas have different depths and different problems. A good friend of mine had an unhappy contractor but my friend ended up with a good bore hole. The first bore had decent water but not enough of it. While going deeper they hit some very hard rock and lost the drill point. The second bore had a new better drill point but ended up being 60 meters deep. This was about 15 kilometers south of Pattaya. I forgot the total cost but I don't think it was overly expensive.

[Lickey]

Barry, when we had the farm borehole extended from 10 to 23 mtrs, the opo charged 10k bht, and if water came for 24 hours then he would expect payment, sure enough, it pumped 24+hours no problem, but mrs held his ID card till this was proven, 2 years later, still going strong, This was April 2 years ago, so no rain for near 7 months, best time to do a borehole, well, in this area!!

Cheers, Lickey..

[teletiger]

Lickey, No rain for 7 months? Started here (Khao Yai, Issan) 26 Feb, not stopped since. 1 five day drought We planted our corn 11 march, at chest height now. That's normal for this area.

Thailand really is a Jigsaw of micro-climates. What's the solution when areas don't get their share. More dug ponds? The government did run a scheme a few years back, where the farmer paid 2,400 Baht to have a pond dug. (The government subsidising the rest of the cost) It was offered to us, but being a <deleted> I turned it down. How do you cope?

Regards.

edit: I think I missed my own point here. Annually, Issan has enough rainfall to cover it's needs, for the year. (2 crops of whatever?) Just not enough is collected and saved. People relying on Government dug klongs, whatever. Enlighten me.

Please.

Edited April 29, 2009 by teletiger

[Lickey]

Ok TT, the first year i was here, from Oct20 till my sons bday 15 may, it did not rain, when it did, i went outside in shorts and a bar of soap an had a warm fresh shower, locals were laughing, but im english and missed the rain!

Now this last dry season, it rained for 20mins on Xmas day, hardly enough to settle the dust, Songkram was the same, but we did have a good rain 3 nights ago, lasted about 7hours, the banana plants have really perked up and look good,

Namsom [orange water] not Vinegar water as others believe, is surrounded by rocky mountains, when the real storms come in May, there can be 6/7 at any one time, i go to our top floor and watch this amazing eletric show,

There is a river here, never drops more than .5 mtr all year, the paddy blokes feed off this and only 1 does a sweetcorn crop after rice.

We cope by fruit trees that only want what the rainy season gives, if i can give extra water via borehole pump i will, specially to the makua.salad beds and young banana plants, Now TT, corect me if im wrong, but borehole water is un-oxygenated, and is pretty worthless other than making the soil wet?

Cheers, Lickey.

[slapout]

If you have a bit with some pipe in a open hole, and you want it out, you get to go fishing. If the man was in oil/drilling business for 40+ years he he will know what overshot is needed, procedure, risks, etc. He will also be aware that it is not a job for a amateur. Where is Bosida when you need him???? With the equipment and personal I have observed on a local level (Thai) it may be best to drill a new well and not try to retrieve the lost fish.

[Boksida]

If you have a bit with some pipe in a open hole, and you want it out, you get to go fishing. If the man was in oil/drilling business for 40+ years he he will know what overshot is needed, procedure, risks, etc. He will also be aware that it is not a job for a amateur. Where is Bosida when you need him???? With the equipment and personal I have observed on a local level (Thai) it may be best to drill a new well and not try to retrieve the lost fish.

Sorry Slapout, I've been out in the field for a couple of days (advising on a somebody else's fishing job, strangely enough). I fully agree with you though - if anybody goes fishing without knowing exactly what is down the hole now and without the proper fishing tools, the result is usually a new fish on top of the old one. The advantage of this in such a shallow hole is that soon there will be broken off fishing tools up to the surface and they are a lot easier to retrieve there. If it can't be fished in a day or two, I would be thinking about a new hole.

[Beardog]

The bore hole contractor is quite the John Wayne cowboy kinda guy. Except the laziest lout I have ever seen. instead of stopping to grease the extensions with dope he cheap charlied & lost the last extension. The water table now is at 2 feet, so you couldn't miss anywhere. after decapitating the chuck(I m probably off on the terminology by a long shot- it is the part that hols the drill or extension tight. he broke all the welds - snapped the bolts holding down the plate & ematiated the U-joint in the main drive yolk. I pointed out the U-joint was missing all the bearings in one of the caps. I have a feeling that he will just put the motor in high gear 7 thump al the rest of the drive assembly. This is true humor to me being a mechanic by trade & watching in absolute idiot at work!

Upon him finding or not finding the bit Colin knows the exact size of the overshot needed but has to work on the rig tomorrow & the contractor is coming back today for his fishing expedition. LOL.

He will then be instructed to finish the drilling to 40-45 meters as agreed as I have a very strong suspicion that if he stops on the second shelf as the neighbor around the corner did at 25 meter he will be out of water in dry season. No extra funds to be transferred until the agreement has been reached. We have the similar scenario with the fence being built whereas within 1000 baht we know & can the contractor if he is not competent. I did the cement posts myself after the worst work I have ever seen.

Maizefarmer has been giving me great advise on how to setup the schphinter cam & see deep in the cavity. It might be best for him to just dig another hole. we will see. I am sorry he conned my new neighbors into 25,000 baht up front(still a cheap price to pay for a lesson well learned. I always wanted to learn about bore holes since 2004 , now I am getting to know why they call it a bore hole -More like getting reamed at the same time. Life is certainly an advenure!

Thanks for the replies!

Barry

[Beardog]

Day 1 on the fishing adventure........ No Fish!

[sorensen]

I have worked on some 6,500 m deep wells.....but guess what we found...

[Boksida]

Beardog,

If I understand the problem correctly, the drill pipe has backed off at the first joint below ground level? I don't think the lack of dope on the connection would have had much to do with the problem. The information that there has been a lot of damage to the surface equipment indicates that something is stuck further down the hole, possibly at the bit. If the string torqued up to the point where welds broke, this would cause everything to rotate backwards as soon as power was lost and possibly undo down the hole. Alternatively the drill pipe may have actually broken.

If you can get hold of the fish, it may still be stuck.

Can you post any pictures of the rig and the piece that has been recovered from the hole?

Additional information that could help would be:

1. What is surface casing size (if any) and how deep is it set?
   
2. What hole size was being drilled?
   
3. Was he drilling with mud or air?
   
4. What diameter is the drill pipe and what is the outside diameter of the connections?
   
5. What is the depth to the top of the fish?
   

Not sure if any of us can be much help from a distance but we are absolutely full of free advice and bullshit.

[Beardog]

Hi Boksida,

The bore hole casing is 6" the actual bore on the top I think is a 2" Contractor says 1" Doesn't sound correct, but bore holing is new to me wells easy!

Hole is approx. 20 meters deep.

He started with a viscuous mud & after 2 lengths of 3.80 meters they chased the rest with an air compressor. Went through granite & seemed like they hit 2 layers of rock - the second layer yielding larger size rocks.

Upon cleanout before attempted removal they washed out the hole with air blasting water & rock out of the hole, but failed to actually lift the drill in & out to clean & free up the bit itself. Which looks to be a 2" bit.

Yesterday the came by with a slotted extension to catch the part & turn it out(hardly what is considered an overshot in the oil drilling business!

Today they came out with another multi slotted extension piece with many slots(still pretty amateurish) I give them 1 in a 1000 to retrieve this part out!

Loks like a 17 meter fishout.

Posted are some pics of the archaic equip. The first guys came in with 4 trucks with a 4 story drill an industrial air compressor (similar to the rig we used when I worked as a chipper in a ship steel yard when I was a kid. & a full water truck & a parts runner truck , but picked the only spot on the 3 rai with no water. I used the water witch setup & confirmed the spot to be very very weak where the 1st crew dug 70 meters to no avail.Lots of good limestone though.

[Boksida]

I guess the nicest thing to say about your contractor is that he appears to be under-capitalized.

The hole looks like it would have to be over 5" in diameter as the drill pipe looks like 3-1/2" without the tool joints. The kelly (that's the piece with the swivel on top and the two drive splines welded down the length) must already be about 5".

The fishing tool is also not really as well made as it could be. Where the windows have been cut out on three sides and then folded in, is unusual in that the folded in pieces are all on one side of the tool so there is no centering action. The usual thing is to weld pieces of leaf spring instead of the fingers as the mild steel will just bend when they take a pull. The overshot goes over the pipe in the hole and when pulled back the fingers are supposed to grip under the upset end connection on the drill pipe.

If the female thread on top of the fish is still intact, I would not use a tool like this first off anyway. The bottom of the fishing tool should have a wall hook, which when rotated pulls the fish off the side of the hole and guides it inside the overshot (your oilfield mate can probably explain that better). Another internal guide would the center the fish so that a male thread inside the fishing tool could screw in to the fish. All this could be made by a local welder. The advantages, as opposed to the tool they are using now, are that:

• circulation can be established to lift crap out of the hole
  
• the tool can be backed off and released if the fish can't be pulled. Drillers would normally put some string or a piece of copper wire around the shoulder on the male thread in the fishing tool to make sure it released at the same place.
  

Anyway, Good Luck. I think you are going to need it.

By the way, if the formation is limestone, it is not uncommon for wells a meter or two apart to have vastly different yields as the water will be in fractures, joints and solution cavities. You might be better off getting your first contractor back to try another location. Well drilling contractors are not supposed to be diviners.

[Beardog]

Well try no.2 with the funkafied looking cutouts didn't yield anything! Go figure.

When we put in the well It was a different knowledgeable contractor that didn't need anything but his cat. He knew right where the water was & was right. the lime is actually 3 &3/4 rai away from the well.

I thought the guy was getting a real overshot fishing device & it was hard not to laugh at the setup...if it wasn't so terminal for him. I guess they are going to try 1 more time & then re drill the 35-50 meter bore as agreed. And you guessed it the machine is over 20 years old & he is way under capitalized. Even though I get skunked in Thailand I have learned to get references & hope they are real. Worst case scenario is the couple will lose 25,000 baht & a lesson well learned. Ahh the school of hard knocks!

I will let you know how the last part of the fishing expedition goes. I would place money on athis being a bust & a new hole dug!

He still seems like he wants to make something & I think he will complete agreement. I am getting a hel_l of an education on the subject...only wish my mentors were as savy as the people on this forum!

I asked him about using a camera device to find the bit(but I suspect it is impacted anyway into the rock & may not come out anyway) He has no funds & does not have a clue about technology anyway. Supposedly he worked for the government which sure does not say much.

Thanks for the help!

Edited May 1, 2009 by Beardog

[slapout]

Its nice to see beardog can still have a sense of humor while watching all of this. Boksida probably said it all when he said 'good luck, I think your going to need it'. If you really want to confuse the driller, ask if he has access to a impression block to determine what the top of fish looks like? Its made of lead so when you set down on top of fish, you get a impression on the lead as to what is looking up (if its run correctly) Not being real critical, but seeing pictures of rig, I might consider going back to hand dug technology. ha

[Beardog]

Slapout,

You should have seen the 1st crews setup. About 4 years old 4 stories high & super technology. The only fault they had was the diviner didn't know dids about finding water. I purposelessly ran all the electrical poles in the back of the rais , so we would rarely have to see electrical lines in the front of the house. The owner wanted to keep the borehole close to the electric source. Had the company been able to go with the first choice water would be flowing. The dufuss picked a dry creek bed(that flows during rain only.I learned in cub scouts that does not mean that that is a true water source in dry season cause the water snakes to either sides or wherever.I guess they don't have many classes for dek deks in Thailand.

The equipment is ancient & really beat to death. the belts are all haggard all the bearings in the caps of the U-joints are dust. The only part that is working well is the engine & tranny(surprisingly).

They are goingto bring a monk out for a blessing today & try 1 more time. Then as agreed with the owner they will redrill(I believe most likely & would bet the farm on it!) that the will re-drill to 40 meters & install the pump. He did make good on buying the Franklin pump cord & control box. I cringed when I learned Colins wife gave him the funds to buy the pump & supplies.

At least he is credible & didn't take the money & run. I am really glad it is my neighbors gig & not mine as I have enough on my hands with the clowns I hire to help here & wind up doing 70% of most of the work myself. I don't care about that I like workin anyway & dislike a job poorly done as most of us are on the same wavelength.

Within 3 days if they redo the bore & start early they can complete the job.

Keep you posted.

[TPI]

Slapout,

You should have seen the 1st crews setup. About 4 years old 4 stories high & super technology. The only fault they had was the diviner didn't know dids about finding water. I purposelessly ran all the electrical poles in the back of the rais , so we would rarely have to see electrical lines in the front of the house. The owner wanted to keep the borehole close to the electric source. Had the company been able to go with the first choice water would be flowing. The dufuss picked a dry creek bed(that flows during rain only.I learned in cub scouts that does not mean that that is a true water source in dry season cause the water snakes to either sides or wherever.I guess they don't have many classes for dek deks in Thailand.

The equipment is ancient & really beat to death. the belts are all haggard all the bearings in the caps of the U-joints are dust. The only part that is working well is the engine & tranny(surprisingly).

They are goingto bring a monk out for a blessing today & try 1 more time. Then as agreed with the owner they will redrill(I believe most likely & would bet the farm on it!) that the will re-drill to 40 meters & install the pump. He did make good on buying the Franklin pump cord & control box. I cringed when I learned Colins wife gave him the funds to buy the pump & supplies.

At least he is credible & didn't take the money & run. I am really glad it is my neighbors gig & not mine as I have enough on my hands with the clowns I hire to help here & wind up doing 70% of most of the work myself. I don't care about that I like workin anyway & dislike a job poorly done as most of us are on the same wavelength.

Within 3 days if they redo the bore & start early they can complete the job.

Keep you posted.

Dam-n interesting, I did wildcatting in Ozy for a few years and saw the results of undercapitalising...always a disaster!

Fill the hole with cement and move on eh!

[Beardog]

Tomorrow the try to get the bit out for the 3rd time. If they don't get it they have agreed best to cap the old hole & drill a new one. We will see - I give them 10,000-1 odds they will not recover the bit! I haven't worked on any engines that old since the 80's. The guy definitely needs to upgrade or go back to work for the government.

[Maizefarmer]

...... I told you a few days ago how to deal with it - if they snap off under drilling power they almost always go off axis and bury themselves into the borehole wall at an angle, and untill you get a cam down and see exactly where how the top end of the part is lying (relative to the borehole wall), even if the guys do get a grip on it, chances are it ain;t going to move. They need to get a grip on it so that when its pulled, it pulls out parrellel to the borehole wall, and that is not likely to happen unless they can literay "see" whats going on.

I'm afraid I think you guys are up against a time waster.

[Beardog]

The owner had a talk with the borehole guy. He has till tomorrow to Shit or get off the pot. He has no idea of what overshot & hasn't got a penny to buy a camera & the neighbors don't want to invest any more on this loser. He picked up 12 of the extensions which makes me think he might duck out. So the police have been notified & the rig will be impounded & sold for scrap. He needs to cap the old one & drill a new one or pay what he can back. I cringed when Nok gave him another 28,000 baht for the Franklin 1.5 hp pump 200 meters of electric cable & the control box. I was shocked that he didn't rip her off.

To bad the diesel engine is big I would get a cherry picker & snatch the engine for a backup generator! I have gotten a lot better at sticking to pay schedules myself. Thailand is a strange place in regards to expectations.Now I don't pay anything till contract is fulfilled & make sure it is a legitimate contract. My days of naivativity are over. Glad this is her baby & I am only a helping overseer as my hands are full building close to a rai's worth of fence Chain link & getting ready to pour the klong with cement to direct flood water out of the land.Can't wait to start putting in the fruit trees! Thanks Maize again!

Barry

[slapout]

These are the kind of goat roping it is best to be an observer like you are beardog. Fishing for lost pipe with all of the proper tools and qualified people is known to fail. Cameras have been around for 40+ years in the oil field and are just another tool which can be called into play. When the equipment and personal who lost the equipment are still at the site the use of camera's are seldom needed. In this case its kind of a moot point as they are not using the fishing tool that would probably have the best chance for recovery anyway.The driller (term used loosely) as Boksida pointed out appears lacking in the capital dept. The rig looks like it is ready for scrape pile. Too bad they couldn't impound a truck. ha Sounds like they have the down hole fixtures, now they just need to get a well drilled which produces good water. As the money for pump was spent on items promised, it appears the driller is another example of good intentions, not being a measurement of success.

[cloghead]

'Driller' = big hat, no cattle...

[Maizefarmer]

Don't let things get "nasty" - things like this can fast escalate out of control with sometime very unpleasent results all round (let the missus do all the talking so things like culturale differences and language barrier don't come into play).

Good for you for standing up - most ex-pats I know would fold.

[Boksida]

For next time:

http://www.oilfieldbooks.com/FISHING.html

[slapout]

boksida; You are such a wealth of info for a old worn out oiley and you could help so many of the people who want to drill water wells, if they would listen. I know you are not suppose to advertise on the topic forums, which several members seem to do, but there is a real need for the expertise of people, by people who contract drillers, water witches etc, for water wells. Hope to see you at the TV get together in CM next month

[slapout]

Don't let things get "nasty" - things like this can fast escalate out of control with sometime very unpleasent results all round (let the missus do all the talking so things like culturale differences and language barrier don't come into play).

Good for you for standing up - most ex-pats I know would fold.

I would guess you have not had too much personal experience with the old guard oil field ex pats.

[Beardog]

I got to hand it to the cowboy. Today he came out late as usual (or with him should I say punctually late) With a new & improved part ( still not an overshot) & didn't seem to have to much luck. It looked almost armored plated, but as Maizefarmer pointed out, without seeing what your trying to find your chances are slim to none. And when it comes to Expats I most always will look out for them as it may be me & it is nice to have all the help you can here. The U.S. as everywhere has losers, but at least the long arm of the law is strong & requires bonding to limit The goat roping cowboys from taking you for a hayride.

Not sure what the status of the bore is as I and the little women are having to do a large Klong & hopefully pouring the cement tomorrow. The help dogged out again & getting used to doing the jobs myself. Sure glad mechanics & construction were my

strong points!