Visa services - embassy guidance?

[mesquite]

I have seen warnings in the US Embassy regarding Jewelry store scams.  But I have never seen anything about visa services and fake visa stamps.  Only recently the British Embassy put up a weak statement on the issue.

Why didn't the embassies warn their citizens?  My guess is that so many Thai Imm. people were on the take that it would have ruffled official feathers.

I know several people who have used these services thinking they were legal. They even advertised in the Bangkok Post!  The foreign embassies said nothing about them....they must have been legal.

IMHO the US, AUS and UK governments, among others, have let their citizens unknowingly walk into a trap.  Heads at these embassies should roll.  A letter to one's congressman (in the case of the US) might be helpful.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Embassies first consideration has to be their nationals. Ruffling feathers doesn't matter. The British Embassies belated contribution contains wildly inaccurate information.

[taxexile]

Embassies first consideration has to be their nationals

if the embassies first consideration really is the wellbeing of their nationals then they should have warned them against this just as they warn against jewellery scams etc.they have been negligent in not doing so.mesquite has made a very fair point there and to most people these visa agencies gave the impression from their heavy advertising that they operated legally.this situation is a real mess and somebody should be out there trying to cool it down a bit .yes the law has been broken blah,blah,blah, but it isnt as straightforward as that.

inaccurate information from the british embassy , thats par for the course for a british government institution.they are too busy admiring their range rovers (paid for by the british taxpayer) to be bothered with anything as mundane as helping their citizens. shame on you over there on wireless road.

[ovenman]

I have seen warnings in the US Embassy regarding Jewelry store scams.  But I have never seen anything about visa services and fake visa stamps.  Only recently the British Embassy put up a weak statement on the issue.

Why didn't the embassies warn their citizens?

From the Before You Travel Abroad section of my U.S. passport:

6. Foreign Laws: Remember, while in a foreign country you are subject to its laws.  Penalties for violating local law, even unknowingly, can be more severe than in the U.S. for similar offenses.

While I do think that there may be better way to handle the situation than a blanket crackdown on what was essentially condoned behaviour for the longest time, I don't think it's any foreign embassy's responsibilty to inform its citizens abroad of the local laws of a host country.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Tax ...over the years many people have been done for using visa agents. The Embassies would all have had experience in deportation of their nationals. The only shock they got was how many of their people were using the agents. The US Government in particular has been pressing Thailand to tighten its borders

[taxexile]

dr.pat pong

i did not know that people have been prosecuted/deported for this before. but if that is the case then that makes it even harder for me to understand why embassies have not made more of it in the way of warnings to their nationals.after all, the visa agent is just another scam like the jewellery shop.

of course hindsight is a wonderful thing,but this whole mess stinks and i for one have sympathy with (some of )those caught up in this.

[Edward B]

I don't think it is up to the Embassies to provide this information to each and every visa applicant, however it should be available upon request. It is up to the visa applicant to make enquiries as to the laws of the country they are going to visit, including whether using an agent is within the law. It's just ignorant to not find out the laws of a country before you plan visiting.

I agree with SoCal's comment: "Ignorance of the law is no excuse".

[taxexile]

the embassies post warnings on their website about jewellery shop scams,they have done for years,travellers advisories they call them,why cant they do it about visa shops.the english language newspapers have taken advertising revenue from these outfits,didnt they know they were illegal operations? this whole mess stinks more than the inside of the  koh phangan mini bus out of khao san road.

ignorance of the law is no excuse ??? get off your high horses gentlemen,in this case i believe it is.

[ovenman]

the embassies post warnings on their website about jewellery shop scams,they have done for years,travellers advisories they call them,why cant they do it about visa shops.

I would imagine that the only reason an embassy would issue a warning about gem shop scams is because that embassy has received numerous complaints from its citizens who have been scammed over the years.  I doubt too many people were complaining about the services offered by the visa agents until roughly a few weeks ago.

[taxexile]

point taken ovenman (interesting moniker,by the way), but i think the embassies have known about it for years and apparently there have been occassional arrests in the past,the embassies will have been notified.

its a mess, with guilt and blame spread over a wide area, and yes, the ultimate responsibility is with the unfortunate ones arrested or sweating out in the queues at don meuang and pedang besar.and i cant help but take a sympathetic view.

i'm just a big softy!!

[Edward B]

...this whole mess stinks more than the inside of the  koh phangan mini bus out of khao san road.

ignorance of the law is no excuse ??? get off your high horses gentlemen,in this case i believe it is.

Tax (you old softie),

Sorry mate but you'd be gunned down quicker than an American spy plane flying over Iraq by any lawyer (Bud excluded) in any court. Ignorance of the law has NO exceptions. To quote Dr PP; "GIMME A BREAK"!

[dr_Pat_Pong]

As I said Tax  ( more 20 / 20 hindsight ) The Brit published DANGEROUS visa advice. Visa's are available at entrance points. NO VISA'S ARE AVAILABLE AT BORDERS...there is a 30 day conditional permit, and  some nationalities can get a 14 dat tourist visa on arrival. Brits run a big chance of being banged up over this. Brits take note and advise your Embassy

[taxexile]

there seems to be some confusion here.(in my mind at least)

how does a false stamp in a british passport become more of a problem to a brit than say a false stamp in a us passport is a problem to an american citizen. the offence is the same.

the advice on the brit embassy website is a bit ambiguous to say the least,but i dont see how it can get a brit banged up.

please enlighten me.

[ovenman]

I'm sympathetic as well.  I just don't know what an equitable solution would be.  The underlying problem in Thailand is that there are any number of laws in place that are not routinely enforced.  Think about it, whenever a crackdown is put into effect, it's never regarding some new legislation that was just passed.  The crackdown is always over some previously unenforced law that's being dusted off today for whatever reason (combat terrorism, morals crusade, not enough tea money flowing, etc.).  The punters will always proclaim "this is not fair, blah, blah, blah."  The bottom line from the authorities is that "this law has existed for years and you should have known better".  Whether one likes it or not, how can one really argue with that?

Slight digression: I had to laugh a couple years back when there was a proposal for a new Thai law that would make the operation of mobile phones illegal while driving.  I'm wholeheartedly for doing so but what's the point?  There is a whole raft of Thai vehicle code that's never enforced, why add one more law to the books that will simply gather dust?  

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Unless the red wine has already kicked in ...I meant the London Ministry and Embassy advice here indicates that ALL visa's for Thailand  are obtainable at point of entry.

[Bob Chittie]

Of course ignorance of the law is no excuse in any case. However, as I wrote elsewhere, the Thai government had given the impression that visa agencies would be tolerated. To suddenly begin arresting people with no prior warning is a little much.

[Bob Chittie]

I'm sympathetic as well.  I just don't know what an equitable solution would be.  The underlying problem in Thailand is that there are any number of laws in place that are not routinely enforced.  Think about it, whenever a crackdown is put into effect, it's never regarding some new legislation that was just passed.  The crackdown is always over some previously unenforced law that's being dusted off today for whatever reason (combat terrorism, morals crusade, not enough tea money flowing, etc.).  The punters will always proclaim "this is not fair, blah, blah, blah."  The bottom line from the authorities is that "this law has existed for years and you should have known better".  Whether one likes it or not, how can one really argue with that?

Slight digression: I had to laugh a couple years back when there was a proposal for a new Thai law that would make the operation of mobile phones illegal while driving.  I'm wholeheartedly for doing so but what's the point?  There is a whole raft of Thai vehicle code that's never enforced, why add one more law to the books that will simply gather dust?  

I agree with you and that's why I don't know what to do. Do you live by the laws as they are written or by the laws as they are implemented? I would have to choose the latter, but then the obvious reprecusssion is that at any time, you can be arrested for breaking the law. it really doesn't make too much sense to me. Technically, if the police saw you entering your house with a woman who was obviously selling her services, they could question you and arrest the both of you, right? After all, prostition is illegal. But in reality, the Thai police have given the impression that it will be tolerated, correct?

Seems to me like they have the complete upper hand and probably like it that way. And it seems a little unfair that it is blatantly implied that a certain activity is okay, despite what the law books say and then one day with no warning, the police begin arresting people.

[Roger13]

Why Are we talking about using Agents as being against the Law?

Who said that?

I thought we were talking about fraudulent Visa Stamps ...

Presumably some agents secured Correct Visa Stamps?

THAT wasn't illegal / against any law - was it?

Roger

[dr_Pat_Pong]

The illegality is your unaccompanied passport travelling for visa purposes..you are an old hand Roger...you knew that

[Bob Chittie]

Why Are we talking about using Agents as being against the Law?

Who said that?

I thought we were talking about fraudulent Visa Stamps ...

Presumably some agents secured Correct Visa Stamps?

THAT wasn't illegal / against any law - was it?

Roger

Its all against the law, but maybe you are confused because some passports came back with valid stamps (with the assistance of immigration officials who I don't imagine are in jail tonight with our British friends) and some came back with fake stamps.

[Edward B]

Of course ignorance of the law is no excuse in any case. However, as I wrote elsewhere, the Thai government had given the impression that visa agencies would be tolerated. To suddenly begin arresting people with no prior warning is a little much.

Again, you'd be gunned down...

"Giving an impression" is no green light to go ahead and break the law.

[Axel]

Unless the red wine has already kicked in .

Dr. can you give more information on this? I mean price, label, vintage...

As I said yesterday, stupid, ignorant, whatever. As many people as possible should tell their embassies in writing. Admit to ignorance and claim having believed the ads in BKK post etc. Only in numbers is power.

(Do not quote me as having seen similar adds posted in the men's rooms of some pubs around BKK)

I checked earlier this morning embassy web-sites and newspaper on continental Europe. Only for Switzerland a stern general warning DO NOT GIVE YOUR PASSPORT OUT OF YOUR HANDS.

Why so many Brits? Again a matter of numbers, their country is cold and in fog which Thailand is not. Although I heard at least one other mational is involved meanwhile down at IDC.

Roger 13, you can use an agent to travel to the immigration office with your passport for which the fellows want to see a letter of appointment and the messegers ID-card. But a messenger travelling on your behalf out of countr? Forget it!

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Does inactivity give an impression contrary to the law ?

[Bob Chittie]

Of course ignorance of the law is no excuse in any case. However, as I wrote elsewhere, the Thai government had given the impression that visa agencies would be tolerated. To suddenly begin arresting people with no prior warning is a little much.

Again, you'd be gunned down...

"Giving an impression" is no green light to go ahead and break the law.

Is being given a green light by all relevant authorities reason enough to receive fair warning before you are thrown in jail? We're talking much more than an impression. Again, I'll use prostitution as an example. For all intents and purposes, the green light has been given to partake in this activity. has it not? If they decided to enforce the law making prostituion illegal, shouldn't they give widespread warning first?

[Bob Chittie]

Does inactivity give an impression contrary to the law ?

If the inactivity goes on for decades, the vast majority of people would come to assume that the activity is tolerated.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

AXEL   A King's Ransom here ...Oz wine smuggled in from London.....not too many fights per bottle.

[taxexile]

entrapment by any other name  ???

[ovenman]

Does inactivity give an impression contrary to the law ?

I think that it does in certain circumstances.  Official inactivity over a very visible transgression of the law sets a de facto standard for behaviour (however erroneous it may be).  

In the specific instance of the dodgy visa agents, it was no mystery who/where these people were located or what sort of services were being offered.  One does not get the impression that the authorities were in the dark as to the existence of these services.  Given the fact that these agencies have operated for years with minimal interference from the authorities, I can see where people would form an impression that this form of behaviour was officially tolerated, if not outright condoned.

Which still does not make it okay...

[ovenman]

Seems to me like they have the complete upper hand and probably like it that way. And it seems a little unfair that it is blatantly implied that a certain activity is okay, despite what the law books say and then one day with no warning, the police begin arresting people.

Anybody, anywhere, anytime.  

[Indo-Siam]

Interesting thread.  I guess I'm the lone ranger here.  In my eight years of coming and going here, I always heard about "dodgy" express visa services.  I always knew they were doing something illegal.  I've probably discussed these services with various folks 70 or 80 times over the years.  I NEVER met anyone - not one person - who didn't understand that these were illegal services.    I'm talking persons from maybe 30 counties, young, old - and everything in-between.

Everybody knew these services were illegal.   The only questions anyone had were about the cost, the speed, and the risk.

So it always boiled down to:  Do I take the "easy wrong" or the "difficult correct" way to proceed.  I've watched lots of dodgy types take the easy wrong.  I was taught to take the "hard right" course in life.  And I've seen many others take the "hard right" instead of the "easy wrong" approach.

Well, the day or reckoning has arrived.   I have no sympathy for all the dodgy bums who slide through life cutting corners and laughing at the "plodders" who follow the rules - and then get nailed good and hard, and start whining.  Its all about character.  Bums take the easy way.  People of character follow the "stand up" way.  Sadly, it has been my observation in life that the bums seem to win way too often.  It irks me.  But - I've never given a second thought to joining the dodgy bums.

Bangkok farangs are - on the whole - about three orders of magnitude more inclined toward the dodgy end of the spectrum.  Half my time here I feel like Diogenes - looking for an honest man.  Just like a "good Thai girl" who despises being mistaken for a bargirl, I'm sick and tired of being painted as just another bum for the simple reason that I'm in Bangkok, and the "whole world knows" that all farang in Bangkok are bums.

On that note, I won't ever be losing much sleep when I see all the corner cutters and dodgy types getting locked up, and deported.  Each dodgy character that gets zapped changes the balance here incrementally - with respect to raising the "character of the remaining population" - one step closer to the "honorable" end of the spectrum.  If enough bums get "selected out", then maybe the general character of expats around here will improve.

I see no need for embassies to advise citizens concerning "shades of black" within clearly illegal activities.  I.e. :  "Don't buy the crack sold at XYZ street, its more unhealthy and bad for you than the crack sold elsewhere."

Dodgy people who used illegal express visa services should not be blaming their local displomatic post for their predicament.   They should take responsibility for being lazy and dishonest and dodgy, and face their consequences as being self-inflicted.

The same for drug smugglers, pedophiles, boiler room predators, and various other low-lifes.  These are all choices people made - knowing what was right, and choosing to follow the "dark side" course.  Well, if you get busted - suck it up.  That's justice knocking on your door.

I hope there's at least one person reaching this point in the thread (probably someone who works at an Embassy?) and saying "Well, it's about time that someone stood up and called a spade a spade."

Indo-Siam

The Lone Ranger