Visa services - embassy guidance?

[molarman]

thank you vicar,for todays sermon.it was eloquently given.

if you are spending half your life looking for an honest man then perhaps you are in the wrong town.and do you really equate crack dealing,drug smuggling and paedophila with using the services of a visa agent to avoid a visa run.i think not.

yes,there are all sorts of characters here that many would like to see kicked out,and being tarred with the same brush as them goes along with being a farang over here.but the types of people who are going to tar you with that same brush are people who are prejudiced anyway so why get hot and bothered about it.a prejudiced person will always find a reason to dislike or worse. a variety of characters is what makes life so colourful here.and what goes around comes around,most lowlifes get what is coming to them,but as for the visa dodgers,at least the majority of them, i think they are being harshly dealt with.

i would also like to direct you to the post by "catseyeland" on page 8 of the thread "news on visa detentions". it makes for a sobering read.now i dont know him or his attitude or his circumstances but  do you think he deserved the treatment he received ?

[jaded]

Here! Here! Molarman. An eloquent and restrained response indeed to Indo-Siam's sermon ???. I'll try to behave likewise.

Indo-Siam, it must be great to be a titan of moral fortitude, standing tall and with assured superiority over the shambolic masses of the rest of us poor 'bums' as we struggle against the shackles of our deprived upbringings to break out of moral bankruptcy and laziness.

You may have been brought up to tell right from wrong, but somewhere along the line you seem to have missed out on the kind of rounded education (not just scholarly) that creates a well-balanced character. By which I mean the kind of person who considers equally all aspects of an issue before presenting an opinion, and who refrains from spouting gross generalisations borne of an extreme sense of self-righteousness.

Perhaps your brand of evangelism and bad-natured rejoicing over the misfortune of the 'evil-doers' would be more appropriate to a religious forum?

[mesquite]

I've probably discussed these services with various folks 70 or 80 times over the years.  I NEVER met anyone - not one person - who didn't understand that these were illegal services.    

Indo-Siam

The Lone Ranger

And did you report these evil doers to the authorities, or did you sit idly by, letting them commit their heinous crimes?

If you stayed silent, you are as guilty as they are.  

I don't know about Thailand, but failure to report a crime is in itself a crime in some 1st world countries.

Think about it.

[taxexile]

mesqite,

back of the net!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

spot on.

[parryhandy]

the english language newspapers have taken advertising revenue from these outfits,didnt they know they were illegal operations?

this is a good point.irrelevant but in western countries if these illegal services had been advertised the papers are breaking the law.dont know how the law stands in thailand but surely aiding and abetting by advertising is a crime and they should be prosecuted.

[Roger13]

Is it really correct to say that the Visa Agents

are Illegal ???

SOME of them have done SOME illegal services.

Did their Adverts Advertise the Illegal Services?

Roger

[Bob Chittie]

Indo-Siam,

Your post ignores the fact that there are many, many young and naive tourists who come to Thailand for a couple months and are not up to date on all the rules. They enter a travel agency and the people ensure them that they can take care of all their visa concerns. They even show them their ad in the newspaper and the big sign out front. So, the young tourist hands over the passport and puts together his best 'korp khun krup'. Now does he really deserve years in jail? Does he even deserve to be called a bum by you?

Okay, some people are well aware of the rules and break them anyway. And others are outside their country for the first time, young and excited. And they make a mistake. Does this warrant the current punishments being discussed?

[Indo-Siam]

Here's what I figure.   Worldwide, maybe  10,000,000 people travel to a foreign country every year.  Or - maybe it's 10 times that many.  In every country of the world, immigration authorities stamp you in, and tell you the date by which you must leave the country.  And alls those millions of people know that when you have to leave, you have to leave.  

In Thailand, which is a dodgy place by any standards, anyone who sought to obtain "fantasy relief" from having to leave the country could find a dodgy shop to take their visas on a trip without them.  I don't buy for 10 seconds the idea that some babe-in-the-woods thought that Thailand had some magical fantasy program by which you have to face up to uniformed police immigration officers any time you cross a border - but if you preferred, you could pay some office lady a fee and she'd replace the immigration process with a painless AND HONEST substitute.  'Give me a break.

I've made a lot of mistakes in life, and I've "paid the piper" for them.  I don't whine and blame some third party for failing to prevent me from screwing up.

This thread was about "it was the embassy's fault".  I say that's absurd.

"Artful dodgers" stick together for moral support.  That's what I see going on here.  Dodgy people looking for reinforcement that they aren't really such dodgy blokes - they are just misunderstood and victimized, and we should all take pity on them and beseech our embassies to rescue the poor lambs.

Whatever.  My comments are inserted to give the discussion a more balanced flavor - just in case there are any casual vistors who wonder what kind of alternate universe they've stepped into here, where everyone thinks its terrible how immigration evaders are being disciplined.  Well, not everyone agrees with the theorem that the problem involves a bunch of misled babes-in-the-woods.

If you hear footsteps, maybe its time to look in the mirror and reassess the virtues of being a dodgy character.  Or - you can come onto a discussion forum and find a bunch of kindred souls who will commisserate with you, and "share your pain".  OK - so be it.  I'll offer a chance for the other side to also find a spokesman.  But - maybe there are no such folks on this board.  No problem.

'Sorry if I'm "squashing your puppy" if I say that all I see is just desserts being delivered.  I guess we won't be sharing a beer anytime soon - and that's fine by me.

Indo-Siam

[dr_Pat_Pong]

For the first time ever I am inclined to agree Indo-S....I am sorry for 'em but the defenses are urine strength, erring on the side of weak. The wild emails to this board and to the  PM are totally counter-productive. Use the diplomatic approach through your Embassies and Foreign Offices.

[Bob Chittie]

Indo-Siam and Dr. P, if you have come together in agreement, I believe that there is hope yet for the Middle East

I just think that there are plenty of cases of naive and perhaps stupid people who see an ad in the paper or trust the Travel agency worker and make a big mistake. I don't want to see these people banned from thailand or thrown in jail. (And yes I admit many many people knew full well it was illegal). i just think the punishments that are being talked about are very very excessive. Now if the farang did it a second time, okay, they have been warned and rules are rules. But I have to believe that many of the current people using the agencies really are just naive or even stupid people who don't deserve jail or blacklisting.

[Axel]

These postings are going a bit weird or perhaps a lot of people just afraid. Check the NATION, it's copied in Thai Visa

a) Seems Hambali had a chop from Chiang Khong. Was he there or did he send an agent?

The relatives of the Brits are complaining. Swiss, Canadians involved as well (copied in Thai Visa)

Perhaps its my soft heart, this could lead to embasssy or actually consular staff to meet. (Didn't we have the difference CD versus CC before?) The consular guys are in charge.

Now I log out for a while, my son is leaving tonight. I mentioned, he came on a ticket ending in BKK and got 30 days

waiver, he left after a week, returned to BKK on a tkt ending here and got another 30 days. Nobody asked for his return ticket, which he had in his pocket, I forced him to do so after all the postings here.

So the normal world is in order. For Hambali the US remitted $ 10 million and for sure they know Chiang Khong, I've never been there. BTW, walking through the duty free shop in wherever, if its true don't mention it here but if it works bring a bottle of duty free on the way back.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Nobody will be sentenced to a prison term here Bob. Many will hit the PNG list but none will do time ( other than preliminary stuff pending bail or hearing )

[taxexile]

is there any way of getting a png listing revoked??

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Possible but HIGHLY improbable. If you had those connections you wouldn't get on it in the first place.

[taxexile]

then i really do have sympathy for those who get png'd.

it is out of all proportion to the offence.the offences were committed, yes, but there was very little criminal intent.

for those with families and loved ones here a few years in prison might seem a more humane punishment than banishment.

i hope the authorities will assess each case according to its circumstances.

i'm not looking for agreement or disagreement from other members here,you have all stated your positions on this.

however i am surprised and saddened by some of the positions taken.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Tax

You have a Thai family here ...what is their position ?

[taxexile]

they feel that the immigration authorities are at fault,and feel sorry for those who will end up kicked out.

they have been shafted.but its no good pleading unfairness,it wont help one bit,in fact it will make things worse.

but they say that this moving of the goal posts with the enforcement of the law here is all too common and something that the thais have to live with.

sort of mai pen lai, it will all settle down soon.

a lot of shrugging of the shoulders.

i think deep down they feel bad that the falangs have not been treated at all well by the authorities,it reflects badly on all thais,who i am assured love falangs and all things falang,but that immigration are under a lot of pressure at the moment from head office because of the hambali fiasco,and and they have to be seen to be doing something now ,so why not the falang visa cheats,its an easy arrest.dont even have to leave the office.

they would be pleased to see the back of the drunken late night falangs that litter our soi, and seem to remain in thailand for years on end. "how do they manage to do it? , where does their money come from?" "dont you have young women in europe?" "when is he going to get a new shirt?" "how could anybody sleep with THAT?"and would love to see immigration come around and ask a few questions.

[ovenman]

they have been shafted.but its no good pleading unfairness,it wont help one bit,in fact it will make things worse.

but they say that this moving of the goal posts with the enforcement of the law here is all too common and something that the thais have to live with.

Well put.  I don't imagine this sort of occurrence is anything new to most Thais but it is new to the farang population-at-large.  For the most part, farangs are routinely ignored by the authorities while they are here.

I don't imagine that pleading "unfair" will help either, even if the situation truly is unfair.  As I stated elsewhere, the law is still the law even if it is only enforced once in a blue moon.

[ovenman]

In Thailand, which is a dodgy place by any standards, anyone who sought to obtain "fantasy relief" from having to leave the country could find a dodgy shop to take their visas on a trip without them.  I don't buy for 10 seconds the idea that some babe-in-the-woods thought that Thailand had some magical fantasy program by which you have to face up to uniformed police immigration officers any time you cross a border - but if you preferred, you could pay some office lady a fee and she'd replace the immigration process with a painless AND HONEST substitute.  'Give me a break.

I don't agree with this entirely.  I'll concede that any old Thai hand who holds that they didn't know these services were not on the up-and-up is at best being a bit disingenuous.  However, any number of the general traveling populace is clueless about visa/immigrations matters.  If you don't believe me, spend some time reading the various branches of the Lonely Planet Thorn Tree discussion board.  Typical post on the Indian Subcontinent branch: "Ummm...  I'm like, leaving for Goa tomorrow.  They'll give me a visa or something when I get to India, right?"  (No, in fact they won't.)  I can see how people like this could very easily believe that the friendly agent who lined up that temple tour/shopping trip for them also did a great job of extending their stay in Thailand by a month.

[Alberta]

Why didn't the embassies warn their citizens?  

 

IMHO the US, AUS and UK governments, among others, have let their citizens unknowingly walk into a trap.  Heads at these embassies should roll.  A letter to one's congressman (in the case of the US) might be helpful.

It's another example of how useless to a non-businessman countryman most of these embassies are. If Canadian embassies are any example never rely on them for any help. I am reminded of a very brief conversation I once had with the Canadian Ambassador to Cambodia when I was working there. He asked why they never saw me around despite the fact I had been in Cambodia for several months. I replied that it was my experience that the less I had to do with a Canadian embassy the better off I would be. His reply was “I agree with you”. End of conversation.

[Alberta]

  I have no sympathy for all the dodgy bums who slide through life cutting corners and laughing at the "plodders" who follow the rules - and then get nailed good and hard, and start whining.  Its all about character.  Bums take the easy way.  

If a man in Thailand on an Immigrant Visa went to a law firm and his lawyer offered to look after his exit/entry visas for him by shipping his passport out to a Thai embassy in a foreign country and back and if the lawyer assured his client that there was nothing to worry about would you still consider this man to be naïve and guilty for having engaged the lawyer for that purpose?  Or would you consider that maybe there are some extenuating circumstances at play here. These things are not black and white, as will be argued in  court.

[sailor]

even more so if the man was offered this 'service' inside an immigration office.... ???

[mesquite]

This thread was about "it was the embassy's fault".  I say that's absurd.

Indo-Siam

Well, at least you're no longer calling yourself "The Lone Ranger"...so we're making progress!

According to The Telegraph in the UK, the European embassies are now meeting to discuss the situation.  Gee, I wonder why.  Like it or not, they all have a problem on their hands.   Embassy officials sat twiddling their thumbs and watched their fellow citizens walk into a trap.  This inaction will not enhance their careers.  On the other hand, a timely,  successful resolution of the problem will.

[opalhort]

Interesting thread.  I guess I'm the lone ranger here.  In my eight years of coming and going here, I always heard about "dodgy" express visa services.  I always knew they were doing something illegal.  I've probably discussed these services with various folks 70 or 80 times over the years.  I NEVER met anyone - not one person - who didn't understand that these were illegal services.    I'm talking persons from maybe 30 counties, young, old - and everything in-between.

Everybody knew these services were illegal.   The only questions anyone had were about the cost, the speed, and the risk.

So it always boiled down to:  Do I take the "easy wrong" or the "difficult correct" way to proceed.  I've watched lots of dodgy types take the easy wrong.  I was taught to take the "hard right" course in life.  And I've seen many others take the "hard right" instead of the "easy wrong" approach.

Well, the day or reckoning has arrived.   I have no sympathy for all the dodgy bums who slide through life cutting corners and laughing at the "plodders" who follow the rules - and then get nailed good and hard, and start whining.  Its all about character.  Bums take the easy way.  People of character follow the "stand up" way.  Sadly, it has been my observation in life that the bums seem to win way too often.  It irks me.  But - I've never given a second thought to joining the dodgy bums.

Bangkok farangs are - on the whole - about three orders of magnitude more inclined toward the dodgy end of the spectrum.  Half my time here I feel like Diogenes - looking for an honest man.  Just like a "good Thai girl" who despises being mistaken for a bargirl, I'm sick and tired of being painted as just another bum for the simple reason that I'm in Bangkok, and the "whole world knows" that all farang in Bangkok are bums.

On that note, I won't ever be losing much sleep when I see all the corner cutters and dodgy types getting locked up, and deported.  Each dodgy character that gets zapped changes the balance here incrementally - with respect to raising the "character of the remaining population" - one step closer to the "honorable" end of the spectrum.  If enough bums get "selected out", then maybe the general character of expats around here will improve.

I see no need for embassies to advise citizens concerning "shades of black" within clearly illegal activities.  I.e. :  "Don't buy the crack sold at XYZ street, its more unhealthy and bad for you than the crack sold elsewhere."

Dodgy people who used illegal express visa services should not be blaming their local displomatic post for their predicament.   They should take responsibility for being lazy and dishonest and dodgy, and face their consequences as being self-inflicted.

The same for drug smugglers, pedophiles, boiler room predators, and various other low-lifes.  These are all choices people made - knowing what was right, and choosing to follow the "dark side" course.  Well, if you get busted - suck it up.  That's justice knocking on your door.

I hope there's at least one person reaching this point in the thread (probably someone who works at an Embassy?) and saying "Well, it's about time that someone stood up and called a spade a spade."

Indo-Siam

The Lone Ranger

I second that statement!

It is the "illegals" who caused this crackdown and tightening of visa rules.

Same as the jewlery scams, I have no sympathy for people who fall victim of it.

Use common sense and educate yourself about the laws of the contry you are going to visit and you won't have any problems.

Don't blame the embassy, they can't do this job for you.

The Thai government is fighting corruption (at least at the lower level) but nailing rouge immigration officers is difficult without evidence, but there is a lot of evidence in the form of fake visa stamps in the passports of foreigners who have used "visa services".

opalhort

[taxexile]

It is the "illegals" who caused this crackdown and tightening of visa rules.

it was one illegal,hanbali,who started all this.the visa scam has been running quite happily for years with the knowledge and aid of the authorities.

to many people,the visa scam operators were set up and purported to be almost as if they were  "branch offices" of the immigration dept.those caught or about to be caught for having false stamps are unlucky pawns caught up in something much bigger. they do not deserve such harsh treatment.its been going on for years,if it was so illegal i believe the embassies should have made this knowledge more public to protect its citizens.the fact that they didnt implies that every bloody body turned a blind eye to it,until hambali,when it had to be stopped.

its nothing to do with bums versus plodders.the sleazos usually get what is coming to them,and the plodders,well they usually get there in the end,so dont worry indo!!  

[keestha]

If a man in Thailand on an Immigrant Visa went to a law firm and his lawyer offered to look after his exit/entry visas for him by shipping his passport out to a Thai embassy in a foreign country and back and if the lawyer assured his client that there was nothing to worry about would you still consider this man to be naïve and guilty for having engaged the lawyer for that purpose?

Would still consider him slightly naive yes. One has to be aware you cannot expect lawyers, medical doctors or whatever other professionals in developing countries to be as capable as and having the same high moral standards as their counterparts in fully developed countries.

Sure, a lawyer in Canada or Germany would (probably) never do anything illegal, but would you expect the same of a lawyer in Paraguay, Nigeria or Thailand?

Once a Bangkok lawyer told me that many of these so called lawyers advertising in the English language press arent even lawyers, but simply middlemen assisting foreigners with matters like company formations and work permits.

Quite a few farangs and other foreigners got cheated out of substantial amounts of money because they put their trust in the wrong law firm.

[Alberta]

Once a Bangkok lawyer told me that many of these so called lawyers advertising in the English language press arent even lawyers, but simply middlemen assisting foreigners with matters like company formations and work permits.

Did you believe him? Naive of you, wasn't it?