Is Love Possible In Chiang Mai

[eek]

aHHH, but meadish, you can still have love without sex So...even a castrated man can have love in his life. Just takes a very special woman...and they can be found..really!

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Personally I dont think about the bar scene here. But, at the same time, I dont have deep friendships with men here who are involved in the bar scene. The men I would consider good friends here are in "regular" relationships with women (of course this may cause the cynics to say that those men probably indulge in sex on the side,

Yes, or they found their partner in the bar/tourist scene to begin with.

For whatever reason, some find it truly hard to believe that a man (or woman) will not play around on their partner).

Possibly those who went to Meadish' castration clinic. Anyone else though..

On average I think generally the men who are involved regularly with bg's seem to be or become a bit different. I think its better that i stop there though, because i dont wish to offend. Im just saying that friendship-wise I relate better to regular guys, who are educated and are in regular relationships.

!!! So, people who appreciate the bar scene are uneducated??? And even if some aren't, then what does that have to do with anything? I just don't see the relation. I'm educated up to my eyeballs but that doesn't mean I don't screw around. Please, some respect here! Not to mention that it's perfectly possible to screw around outside of bars. I screwed around for example with a gas-station-convenience-store-girl once, or twice, with my boss' secretary, a school teacher, and even a nurse in mental institution. (No I wasn't a guest there at the time, or ever, in case anyone wonders. )

That's where I get my awesome understanding of Thai culture and society. And that's why Farang men in general in Thailand are so much more tuned into their surroundings and the culture. You know it's true.

Oh, and "freedom" of the bar scene is a matter of perspective too.

Freedom = not caring about what others might think, and going your own way. I think it applies.

Edited May 20, 2009 by WinnieTheKhwai

[eek]

Ahh...now i just knew some things i said would be interpreted in a different way that i wished them to be...

Ok..let me edit one of those comments:

"Personally I dont think about the bar scene here. But, at the same time, I dont have deep friendships with men here who are involved in the bar scene. The men I would consider good friends here are in "regular" relationships with regular women" (and..to add to that, some of those men are in relationships with women from other nationalities, not just Thai. Some *shock horror* with western women. Maybe all of them were "working" girls when they met though..silly of me to assume that regular girls who seem nice and work hard in their regular jobs no matter what nationality probably did not start out their young adult lives as working in some kind of p4p scene... )

"On average I think generally the men who are involved regularly with bg's seem to be or become a bit different. I think its better that i stop there though, because i dont wish to offend. Im just saying that friendship-wise I relate better to regular guys, who are educated and are in regular relationships." I said "friendship-wise I relate better to regular guys, who are educated and are in regular relationships.". This is true. I DO relate better to those kinds of men. I didnt say that men involved in the bar scene are uneducated. Im sure many are highly educated. In fact..dont most of the ThaiVisa members have phd's already? If a man cant control his thinking with the little head, the IQ of the big head is irrelevant. (Seriously though, you did take that part out of context. Although I agree it could be easily read that way).

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Ahh...now i just knew some things i said would be interpreted in a different way that i wished them to be...

Ok..let me edit one of those comments:

That is *SO* sweet. I love you Eek.

"Personally I dont think about the bar scene here. But, at the same time, I dont have deep friendships with men here who are involved in the bar scene. The men I would consider good friends here are in "regular" relationships with regular women" (and..to add to that, some of those men are in relationships with women from other nationalities, not just Thai. Some *shock horror* with western women. Maybe all of them were "working" girls when they met though.. silly of me to assume that regular girls who seem nice and work hard in their regular jobs no matter what nationality probably did not start out their young adult lives as working in some kind of p4p scene... )

dam_n. You're getting better at this.

I said "friendship-wise I relate better to regular guys, who are educated and are in regular relationships.". This is true. I DO relate better to those kinds of men. I didnt say that men involved in the bar scene are uneducated. Im sure many are highly educated. In fact..dont most of the ThaiVisa members have phd's already? If a man cant control his thinking with the little head, the IQ of the big head is irrelevant. (Seriously though, you did take that part out of context. Although I agree it could be easily read that way).

No, it took effort to read it that way. Some respect please for my ability to pull stuff out of context!

I guess I'll let the 'regular women' thing slide. (Never met a completely irregular one in a bar yet.)

Edited May 20, 2009 by WinnieTheKhwai

[gatorhead333]

There is no sense in me arguing with gatorhead. We look at things from polarized points of view. But, we do agree on one thing and that is practising safe sex. The original question was is love possible in Chiang Mai and I believe I gave some valid reasons why it might be, but also pointed out the risks that many of us have experienced personally and observed all around us. All I hope for is that people who actually fall in love, and not just lust, have an open mind when it comes to the risks financially and emotionally.

I'm not so hard nosed as Blinky Bill in regards to Thai wives straying as soon as a farang leaves for home, but I've seen that happen all too frequently. All I wanted to point out is that it IS a risk for farangs to marry a pretty Thai women and then go back home alone for months at a time.

MR I forbes, yeh my demeanor

was a little to playful for your ideas with you pointed love/ sex rap i guess.... but... blinky bill was not hard nosed at all if anything mr. bill being a highly enlighted ,gentleman went very light in his odds,numbers estimations in the odds in regards to farangs marrying the "bar girls" who double ,triple hit once not so lonely farang scrams back home to his 9 to 5 (i use the term bar girls not inclusive but close )since most/many some whatever farangs meet the lovelys for a bar fine or meet an independent out on the town in the mall,restaurant or the temples etc..... this is why i brought up safe sex since the lonely farang here on holiday should always assume he is sharing his stash once he is away to be safe , assuming something else could easily cost him his life. Very serious stuff these days in the world not just CM so no good reason to be foolish in these matters!

Edited May 20, 2009 by gatorhead333

[orang37]

... snip ... I have also decided not to go along to the thaivisa bbq party. ... snip ...

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Eek

Well, your not going will be a loss for both of moi ! I was looking forward to meeting yourselves.

regards, ~o:37;

Edited May 20, 2009 by orang37

[WaiWai]

Anyone willing to define regularity in men/women/relationships (esp. inter-cultural relationships)?

IanForbes does come up with some good posts now and then. I agree, very true.

Indeed, he does ... and is one of the least judgemental & most open posters, too. (I find those two qualities often go hand in hand).

Edited May 20, 2009 by WaiWai

[gatorhead333]

I agree with Gatorhead333 this has got to to be one of the most stupidest posts this month.Where are you Blinky Bill when we need you?

mr. B. bill must be a mentor to the lonely farang or some maybe even a may be a higher up more mystical figure .... such trueisms!!! i know of so hard for many a lonely farang on V-K to swallow about his paid/saliered CM love...

since her smile is so sweet..

Edited May 20, 2009 by gatorhead333

[WaiWai]

While it may be true that love "can be found" anywhere, there's no question that being in a very different culture with very different norms & expectations about relationships (amongst many other aspects of & attitudes to life) can have quite a dislocating effect.

Similarly, local attitudes to & expectations about foreigners come in to play.

This is an interesting factor to consider while pondering the probability of "finding love in Chiang Mai".

(I suspect the OP may have had such considerations in mind.)

Edited May 20, 2009 by WaiWai

[orang37]

Sawasdee Khrup, TV friends,

All I can add to this fractal discussion is a quote from one of my favorite authors, Milan Kundera :

"The greater the social and cultural distances between people, the more magical the light that can spring from their contact."

Does that "light" also cast "deeper" shadows ?

best, ~o:37;

Ur-Orang : the public Melon-One oral teachings : "the profoundest truth ever not said, and the most stupid lie ever said are kissing cousins."

[gatorhead333]

EEEEEEK!

[eek]

I guess I'll let the 'regular women' thing slide. (Never met a completely irregular one in a bar yet.)

tnx! ..going easy on me!

--------

orang, thanks too. There are many tv members who would really like to meet. Maybe I will brave a TV bbq one day.

____

Waiwai, good point really. I wasnt sure how to best put into words what i meant when i wrote "regular". I couldnt think of a better way to try get across what i meant. I just mean meeting a person under "normal" (..im not very good at this..am i) circumstances. I mean..oh hel_l..I give up...

[gatorhead333]

Sawasdee Khrup, TV friends,

All I can add to this fractal discussion is a quote from one of my favorite authors, Milan Kundera :

"The greater the social and cultural distances between people, the more magical the light that can spring from their contact."

Does that "light" also cast "deeper" shadows ?

best, ~o:37;

Ur-Orang : the public Melon-One oral teachings : "the profoundest truth ever not said, and the most stupid lie ever said are kissing cousins."

put into tv vernacular :

those hilltribe girls are just so hot .....i do not know why i love them so much.....

refer to wise ones words above...

Edited May 20, 2009 by gatorhead333

[WaiWai]

"The greater the social and cultural distances between people, the more magical the light that can spring from their contact."

Does that "light" also cast "deeper" shadows ?

Undoubtedly, I think ... and the light tends to dim and the shadows to deepen with the passing of time, more so than when the distances are not so great.

[IanForbes]

aHHH, but meadish, you can still have love without sex So...even a castrated man can have love in his life. Just takes a very special woman...and they can be found..really!

That is true. I love my children and grand children. I love the children of a Thai family I look after. But, you can also separate sex with a stranger from love with a partner as well. I know several women who don't enjoy sex, for whatever reason. That doesn't mean they don't love their spouse. I'm too old to enjoy sex for purely selfish reasons. I much prefer women who enjoy sex with me... even if that is all the intimacy we have together.

Also, as a confirmed bachelor I don't want to lead some woman on who thinks there might be a future with me... because there isn't. That is the soul reason why I won't seek an intimate relationship with what some people call "nice and proper ladies". I'll have a friendship for sure, but no intimacy.

It takes all kinds to make a world and nobody should pass judgement on others for their chosen life style. All I would like to see in the world is people given the CHOICE to choose and not have it forced on them by lack of education or poverty.

[gatorhead333]

Anyone willing to define regularity in men/women/relationships (esp. inter-cultural relationships)?

IanForbes does come up with some good posts now and then. I agree, very true.

Indeed, he does ... and is one of the least judgemental & most open posters, too. (I find those two qualities often go hand in hand).

lets all condoned ...? condomed?? or is that Cantanised..

[gatorhead333]

aHHH, but meadish, you can still have love without sex So...even a castrated man can have love in his life. Just takes a very special woman...and they can be found..really!

That is true. I love my children and grand children. I love the children of a Thai family I look after. But, you can also separate sex with a stranger from love with a partner as well. I know several women who don't enjoy sex, for whatever reason. That doesn't mean they don't love their spouse. I'm too old to enjoy sex for purely selfish reasons. I much prefer women who enjoy sex with me... even if that is all the intimacy we have together.

Also, as a confirmed bachelor I don't want to lead some woman on who thinks there might be a future with me... because there isn't. That is the soul reason why I won't seek an intimate relationship with what some people call "nice and proper ladies". I'll have a friendship for sure, but no intimacy.

It takes all kinds to make a world and nobody should pass judgement on others for their chosen life style. All I would like to see in the world is people given the CHOICE to choose and not have it forced on them by lack of education or poverty.

sex with stangers mr. forbes this brings us back to safe sex ..

i am glad we are not doing the "I do not condone" thing anymore nice change in this new sunny day!!

and the last comment lets add to that wonderful wish list "i would like to a world without"" everybody fill in the blank____________________ i start here with : world hunger,war,disease>> GOOD ONE FOR THIS LOVE THREAD THUS ending the urgent and unpleasant need for safe sex!!!... continuing with I would like to see: >>free water.. i would like to see... put here>>>___________________hey this is a new thread!!... i would like to see a white elephant fly... it can be anything but lets keep it as absurb as the original i would like to see !!!!

Edited May 20, 2009 by gatorhead333

[gatorhead333]

european women v thai women, now thats more of a realistic question, what are the differences.....any takers [i've got my own thoughts, i'll just let someone else start first]

A more realistic question? In what way? Main difference that i can think of is that Thai women are usually from Thailand, European women are ...well..from Europe.

But, seems so far off the original topic..and im confident that many variations on this question have been covered in this forum since its doors first opened. If you do a search im sure you will have heafty reading. But, by all means give your own thoughts...

heck that is an easy one.... thai girls take a lot more showers so smell sweeter... everywhere ,never have hairy armpits so i guess you have t say this sure makes thai girls so much more pleasant( and easier) to love....

i am just in the kick off with this one ... this is a completely new very relavent thread that could explore things never know to men and women here before....

Edited May 20, 2009 by gatorhead333

[WinnieTheKhwai]

heck that is an easy one.... thai girls take a lot more showers so smell sweeter... everywhere ,never have hairy armpits so i guess you have t say this sure makes thai girls so much more pleasant( and easier) to love....

i am just in the kick off with this one ... this is a completely new very relavent thread that could explore things never know to men and women here before....

I see. Let me do a 'Priceless' and put that into a scientific graph for you, revealing the impact of hairiness.

[eek]

That is true. I love my children and grand children. I love the children of a Thai family I look after. But, you can also separate sex with a stranger from love with a partner as well. - (True, but I think that applies to men more. For women, i think the majority prefer to have sex with someone they love first) I know several women who don't enjoy sex, for whatever reason. That doesn't mean they don't love their spouse. I'm too old to enjoy sex for purely selfish reasons. I much prefer women who enjoy sex with me... even if that is all the intimacy we have together.

Also, as a confirmed bachelor I don't want to lead some woman on who thinks there might be a future with me... because there isn't. That is the soul reason why I won't seek an intimate relationship with what some people call "nice and proper ladies". I'll have a friendship for sure, but no intimacy. -(Admire that. I really admire an honest approach to something. If you made yourself clear and both are happy, then great! The danger is that often women just dont want to hear that honesty and can end up loving the man they have an intimate relationship with. Hope you remain trouble free in your confirmed bachelor way of life )

It takes all kinds to make a world and nobody should pass judgement on others for their chosen life style. All I would like to see in the world is people given the CHOICE to choose and not have it forced on them by lack of education or poverty. -(agree also. But (dangerous territory here i know)if that is a mutual agreement thats great..but, if its "p4p" then its not exactly mutual really. Often its is due those factors you mentioned..lack of education and/or poverty. Even in relationships between a very pretty young girl and a much older man, its often due to those reason too. BUT (another big but), for the record, i do NOT think all relationships here are an ATM relationship. Even those between older men and much younger women.

european women v thai women, now thats more of a realistic question, what are the differences.....any takers [i've got my own thoughts, i'll just let someone else start first]

A more realistic question? In what way? Main difference that i can think of is that Thai women are usually from Thailand, European women are ...well..from Europe.

But, seems so far off the original topic..and im confident that many variations on this question have been covered in this forum since its doors first opened. If you do a search im sure you will have heafty reading. But, by all means give your own thoughts...

heck that is an easy one.... thai girls take a lot more showers so smell sweeter... everywhere ,never have hairy armpits so i guess you have t say this sure makes thai girls so much more pleasant( and easier) to love....

i am just in the kick off with this one ... this is a completely new very relavent thread that could explore things never know to men and women here before....

Gatorhead, please find a comfortable position..I would like to smack your backside with a rather large bat.

Edited May 20, 2009 by eek

[IanForbes]

sex with stangers mr. forbes this brings us back to safe sex ..

i am glad we are not doing the "I do not condone" thing anymore nice change in this new sunny day!!

and the last comment lets add to that wonderful wish list "i would like to a world without"" everybody fill in the blank____________________ i start here with : world hunger,war,disease>> GOOD ONE FOR THIS LOVE THREAD THUS ending the urgent and unpleasant need for safe sex!!!... continuing with I would like to see: >>free water.. i would like to see... put here>>>___________________hey this is a new thread!!... i would like to see a white elephant fly... it can be anything but lets keep it as absurb as the original i would like to see !!!!

It's not a vacant wish list, gatorhead. It's the truth if you would actually spend a little time helping others. No, you can't save the world, but if you can make just one tiny part of the world a better place for a few people then you've done more than most people. I've done that with a few Thai families I've helped and I've seen the progress.

I saw Japan and Germany change from broken, poverty stricken countries right after the second world war to world powers again. I've seen Vietnam change for the better as well, as has South Korea. Certainly there is still poverty, but it is much improved. I've also seen a change for the better in Thailand during the last 13 years I've been coming. All it takes is foreign investment and the willingness of people to work together. Unfortunately, the yellow shirts vs the red shirts has undone a lot of progress in Thailand.

Which brings us back to the love thing. When people are not happy it is very difficult for them to find true love. People who are truly happy and content with who they are CAN find love. Those who are insecure and needy will usually tear apart any new love that might start to blossom.

[WaiWai]

It's not a vacant wish list, gatorhead. It's the truth if you would actually spend a little time helping others. No, you can't save the world, but if you can make just one tiny part of the world a better place for a few people then you've done more than most people. I've done that with a few Thai families I've helped and I've seen the progress.

Agreed. The "realities of life" line of argument is often no more than a rationalization.

In Thailand, though, so many aspects of the culture mitigate against positive change (perhaps most evidently in the "relationships" zone -- relationships of all kinds, I mean). Some foreigners exploit this, or at least are willing to go along with these circumstances.

At the root of the question, "Is love possible in Chiang Mai?" may be the issue of freedom and choice, neither of which could be said to be available as freely or widely here as in other parts of the world.

[IanForbes]

In Thailand, though, so many aspects of the culture mitigate against positive change (perhaps most evidently in the "relationships" zone -- relationships of all kinds, I mean). Some foreigners exploit this, or at least are willing to go along with these circumstances.

At the root of the question, "Is love possible in Chiang Mai?" may be the issue of freedom and choice, neither of which could be said to be available as freely or widely here as in other parts of the world.

That is true. There will ALWAYS be people who exploit others for their own gain, and it's more evident in third world countries than in the western cultures. All I'm saying is SOME of those third world countries are slowly changing and providing more opportunities for more people. As a whole, women in western cultures have far more rights than women in Asian cultures. And, women in most Asian cultures have far more rights than in many Moslem countries and certain countries in Africa.

[WaiWai]

That is true. There will ALWAYS be people who exploit others for their own gain, and it's more evident in third world countries than in the western cultures.

Yep. Precisely why our actions as individuals here matter ...

All I'm saying is SOME of those third world countries are slowly changing and providing more opportunities for more people. As a whole, women in western cultures have far more rights than women in Asian cultures. And, women in most Asian cultures have far more rights than in many Moslem countries and certain countries in Africa.

That might be true on the whole ... but the particularities are debatable. I am not at all sure I'd say Thai girls/women(poor people/folk of certain ethnicities, etc.) are amongst those with "far more rights" in Asia.

(That's why the chorus of "who cares what anyone else thinks of my relationship" is so commonly piped here. Here -- where what others think may almost define you!).

Edited May 20, 2009 by WaiWai

[femi fan]

The only love worth anything is the giving one. If that is the default, then the individual will find love coming back to him or her without even looking for it.

[Blinky Bill]

mr. B. bill must be a mentor to the lonely farang or some maybe even a may be a higher up more mystical figure .... such trueisms!!!

To reveal the truth simply click here. Enjoy.

[orang37]

... snip ... That's why the chorus of "who cares what anyone else thinks of my relationship" is so commonly piped here.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun WaiWai,

I think that's a very interesting observation seen in one light, and, in another light a hypothesis, a premise. In either/and case worth thinking about while humming softly to oneselves Voltaire's lovely words : "Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."

While the melody I am hearing may not be the same one you are hearing (a basic metaphysical assumption underlying all Orang thought even before we are exposed to the collective wisdom of Ur-Orang and the symmetrical anti-collective anti-wisdom of Gnaro-Ru), I wonder if the scale being used for these variations on loony-tunes has more to do with the pickled pipers' peckers' egos ... or should that be stated as : the pipers' pickled egos' peckers ?

Here -- where what others think may almost define you!

Now that I really like ! For me that echoes in the silvering I have not yet scraped from my farang's mind's mirrors of habit. Thank you for that. I do note that I remain fascinated by my farang's ability to allow others who are long dead (in the physical sense of the word), and others he has created out of whole cloth, and then uses to "categorize" people he meets, also play such an important part in the comedy that he mistakes for himself frequently and, as yet, has not learned to laugh deeply enough about.

regards, ~o:37;

[Ulysses G.]

At the root of the question, "Is love possible in Chiang Mai?" may be the issue of freedom and choice, neither of which could be said to be available as freely or widely here as in other parts of the world.

Then again, freedom and choice could just be more illusions.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

That might be true on the whole ... but the particularities are debatable. I am not at all sure I'd say Thai girls/women(poor people/folk of certain ethnicities, etc.) are amongst those with "far more rights" in Asia.

I'd say that "not being stoned to death" for minor social infractions would qualify has having far more rights! Overall Thai women have the exact same rights under Thai law that Thai men have.

(That's why the chorus of "who cares what anyone else thinks of my relationship" is so commonly piped here. Here -- where what others think may almost define you!).

Um, that would still be other people's definition wouldn't it? So people may or may not care about that.

[WaiWai]

I'd say that "not being stoned to death" for minor social infractions would qualify has having far more rights! Overall Thai women have the exact same rights under Thai law that Thai men have.

Punishments for men are pretty harsh in some countries, too -- but point taken.

Rights for Thai women (or Thai/non-ethnic Thai girls/boys who are poor) may be equal under the law but I doubt you would argue that they are so in reality.

(That's why the chorus of "who cares what anyone else thinks of my relationship" is so commonly piped here. Here -- where what others think may almost define you!

[ Winnie:] Um, that would still be other people's definition wouldn't it? So people may or may not care about that.

Yes, of course. It's just interesting that foreigners seem to need to voice this idea so frequently here. (1. It suggests that they sense something is amiss and that they do care. 2. It's a little funny to hear this in Thailand, as it's such a very collectivist culture, where others' opinions do define a person to an extent to which many foreigners are unaccustomed.)

Edited May 21, 2009 by WaiWai