So Why Do You Think You Are Gay, Any Clue?

[ProThaiExpat]

The following list, far from complete, are serious theories advanced by responsible scientists as to why male children end up gay. Please add to the list if you have any others and if you care to, identify which applies to you.

Please identify if any particular reason applies to Thailand especially!!!

1. Dominant mother, absent father.

2. Early sexual experience bends the branch, so grows the tree.

3. Traumatic event during natural maturation process toward heterosexual orientation fixes one at the pubescent experimentation with same sex phase.

4. Born that way.

5. Mother dressed you in girls clothes.

6. You were sexually molested by an older boy or man and liked it.

7. You hated your mother.

8. Your mother exposed herself to you in an unflattering way when you were young.

9. Can't stand the conniving ways of women, prefer the company of your mates and sex with them just follows.

10. I don't care how I "get off", really doesn't matter whether a man or woman does it.

Can we get to twenty in a serious way???

Edited February 5, 2005 by ChrisP

[ChrisP]

11. Gradually drifted/moved in that direction. (See Kinsey's theory..)

ChrisP

[Steve2UK]

Not sure if this rates (and might be too close to # 10)............

12. Why cut out half the world?

Actually, I do now - it just happens to be the female half

[PeaceBlondie]

13. Tried my best to be what I knew was probably my second choice, and finally realized (after 20 years of marriage, 6 children, Baptist minister, etc.) that I was gay, and I had to have a man instead of a woman.

[Dickie]

Try getting to the end of this before howling.

During puberty our brains are physically rewired to go from naive learning machines into calculating "doing" machines.

I read a case study in the papers of a man who suffered a treatable form of brain damage in a car crash and turned from normal husband and father into a raving paedo. When the operation fixed the damage he became normal again.

Schizophrenia rears its head during puberty. Many think the brain isn't wired correctly. The way the brain is rewired during puberty may be hereditary, hence the family predisposition to schizophrenia.

Depression seems to run in families and, while kiddies can get down-hearted, I haven't seen or heard of one suffering real depression. Definitely happens to teenies though (not talking about teenie blues) and continues into adult life. It affects my family to varying degrees.

A school of thought is that homosexuality could be another result of incorrect rewiring.

[Ijustwannateach]

Everyone's always so quick to say homosexuality is "incorrect" this-or-that, "wrong" something or another. I think this is homophobic, heterosexist propaganda.

How about this:

14. Through billions of years of evolution, many "low-k" breeding animals (i.e., animals whose children require more support than others) found that at times there simply weren't enough resources for all of them to breed and support their children in pairs; however, the sexual instinct was too important and basic to remove. Certain individuals who at first accidentally had behavioral tendencies towards same-sex attraction became important support for the care of the smaller number of children. They tended to be related to the animals who *were* breeding, and therefore elements of this same-sex tendency as expressed in the genome were reinforced. This tendency was reinforced and expressed throughout the animal kingdom, especially among the mammals, and eventually among the primates, of which we are an example. Humans developed one of the most complex social and intellectual manifestations of sexuality of all animals, and this complexity became reflected in combination with natural tendencies in them as mammals to have both hetero- and homosexual relationships.

Until recently, in many societies, gay people were systemically employed as carers of children, shamans, doctors (medicine men) and spiritual advisors.

"Steven"

[ChrisP]

^ Where was that taken from, "S"..?

ChrisP

[Ijustwannateach]

I just wrote it!

Can you tell I'm a sometime science teacher?

It follows a number of scientists, though, in its train of thought- including E.O. Wilson, a *very* prominent biologist (wrote the big book on ants, who have a rather alternative sexuality (in a different direction) themselves)....

"Steven"

Edited February 7, 2005 by Ijustwannateach

[peter991]

Interesting topic you have started PTE. Great sensible replies too. Looking at the list I can say that 2, 3, 4, 6, 9 and 13 apply in my case. It definitely isn't a case of 'bad wiring.' I was married for 10 years and have 2 teenage children, both of them are broad-minded and are happy with my choice of partner. I know of numerous examples of children who have decided their sexuality long before puberty.

[ChrisP]

ants, who have a rather alternative sexuality (in a different direction) themselves)....

Ants..??!!

I never knew that! How "alternative" are ants..?

(Not to go too far off-topic!)

Wow - who knew??!

ChrisP

Edited February 7, 2005 by ChrisP

[ChrisP]

Oh..

This isn't another "point"...

but, I did notice that I have a much greater ability to communicate clearly with men.. than with women.

Men hear exactly what I say.. accurately.

Women - esp my ex-wife - used to say.. "So what you're REALLY saying is..?"

I also found that they would try and "read" more into the conversation..

Hate that.

Maybe that's just the difference between men and women generally.

There's a GREAT book: "You just don't Understand" by Deborah Tannen

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...154407?v=glance

that discusses this at length!

ChrisP

Edited February 7, 2005 by ChrisP

[ProThaiExpat]

IJWT's last post got me to thinking about primates and homosexuals. Any of us who live in Thailand and are subject to the restrictions of UBC have probably seen a lot more of National Geogrphic Channel as we would like.

Anyway, many primate shows point out that in many of the monkey, baboon or chimpanzee clans there is a alfa male who alone gets to breed with the females and the non-alfa males form a group often called the "bachelor boys" (hereafter referred to as the BBs)

The leader of the BBs gets sex with the females in the harem of the alfa male, only when the alfa male is deposed and the leader of the BBs becomes the alfa male.

They are far to delecate to discuss what the BBs do for sex, since they don't get near the females unless they are the alfa male of the moment, and many of the BBs never become an alfa male.

My guess is there is a lot of homosexuality among the BBs unless there is a mechanism that only allows their sex drive to become operative when in close proximity to a receptive female.

I know from those shows that bachelor elephants won't go into "musk" if there is an alfa male around the herd of bachelors and a male elephant must be in "musk" to mate.

There is one group of monkeys being studied who conduct their social interreaction with overt sexual advances and coupling, although mating is not the objective. When the films are shown, it looks like monkey porn, as every monkey seems to be getting it on with every other monkey, but not seriously. Learned behaviour no doubt. Nurture in that case.

If I recall corrctly, it was just this type of "variation" in behaviour among primates that got the psychologists to start thinking homosexuality was a "variation" rather than a "deviation" and thus allowed them to stop labeling homosexuals as mentally sick.

There was a question from one poster regarding #3 and what it meant. It may be a overlap of the " if the branch is bent so grows the tree" and "early mostestation from the same sex".

However, as I understand their thinking, there are a number of scientists who believe that man goes through stages as he gets older and one of those stages is homosexual curiosity. If something happens to arrest development further into full borne heterosexualty, the male remains at this homosexual curiosity phase

[Dickie]

However, as I understand their thinking, there are a number of scientists who believe that man goes through stages as he gets older and one of those stages is homosexual curiosity.  If something happens to arrest development further into full borne heterosexualty, the male remains at this homosexual curiosity phase

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Could be. My nephew and his friend were always hugging and smacking each others' &lt;deleted&gt; a few years back. Now both fifteen and into girls.

[Ijustwannateach]

ants, who have a rather alternative sexuality (in a different direction) themselves)....

Ants..??!!

I never knew that! How "alternative" are ants..?

(Not to go too far off-topic!)

Wow - who knew??!

ChrisP

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, most colonial organisms have one reproducing queen with a few male drones to provide genetic material, and the rest of the hive are neuter drone sisters who do all the work (and have no sex). The evolutionary payoff for the drones is that they are so closely related to the queen that her reproduction more or less evolutionarily works out to be the same as their reproduction. This is an example I often use to answer the old over-simplified argument that "homosexuality can't have a genetic component because it can't reproduce itself" (the "alpha male" system mentioned by Expatpro is sort of the gender-reverse version of that, with one male doing all the reproducing- but takes a bit more female involvement in that case).

There is really so much variety in sexuality of all creatures, plant, animal, human, whatever... people who say that men and women in the missionary position is the only "natural" thing just show that they don't know a thing about the natural world.

"Steven"

[angmo]

Personally I think we are born this way.

I never realized I was 'gay' until I was 18. But looking back, the tendencies were all there. I just never new to put a label to it.

At the end of the day, I just am what I am. I don't really care why. It feels natural to me so I do it.

I am more concerned about homophobia.

As Shakespeare once said "Nothing is either good or bad, but thinking makes it so".

This is my philosophy - it leads to a live and let live attitude. Look at all the religious extremists, Osama Bin Ladin, George Bush, - all they do is kill those that don't agree with them. And both those ***holes believe they are doing God's work. "Nothing is either good or bad, but thinking makes it so"

Pieter

Edited February 8, 2005 by angmo

[Steve2UK]

Minor digression..........

I remember (more years ago than I care to admit) that there was a "chocolate eclair" theory. As in - you had to imagine that you're a chocolate eclair (to be) and you have to decide whether you will lay on your back or on your front for the chocolate to be poured over you.

Depending on your answer, you were gay or not. Just wish I could remember which way round it went............

Chocolate ants, anyone?

[PeaceBlondie]

Yeah, Steve, there are more false tests for gayness than there are gay men.

When I was still in the closet, a young married lady at work asked me to walk up to her desk and show her my fingers. I happened to do it palm down and she said, "Oh, you're gay!" My reply: "Oh darn it, I forgot to take Machismo 101 in high school!"

Edited February 9, 2005 by PeaceBlondie

[ChrisP]

I happened to be in Las Vegas yesterday...

walking down the street towards me was a guy with his hands in front of him, and fingers intertwined.

I thought "Oh, you're gay..."

I mean, straight men just don't DO that...

No test necesary there.

ChrisP

Edited February 9, 2005 by ChrisP

[sendbaht]

Do not know I was until I met this cute ladyboy.

[ProThaiExpat]

The funniest scene in a very funny movie, "In and Out" with Kevin Kline, was when he was listening to a "tape" on butching it up and whether he had effeminate characteristics.

For those who haven't seen the film, it is a must, if one is interested in this subject.

When the student body identifies with being gay because of "characteristics or experiences", even if straight, was also hearwarming.

Saw in with my daughter a couple of months ago and we both roared!!

Don't know if it is available in video rental stores in Thailand, but certainly worth trying for.

[PeaceBlondie]

The funniest scene in a very funny movie, "In and Out" with Kevin Kline, was when he was listening to a "tape" on butching it up and whether he had effeminate characteristics.

For those who haven't seen the film, it is a must, if one is interested in this subject.

When the student body identifies with being gay because of "characteristics or experiences", even if straight, was also hearwarming.

Saw in with my daughter a couple of months ago and we both roared!!

Don't know if it is available in video rental stores in Thailand, but certainly worth trying for.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, "In and Out" has countless great scenes. Is it Tom Selleck as the reporter, who kisses Kevin Kline? Kevin's mother is played by Debby Reynolds!

High school boys in the shower room (with towels on) are discussing homosexual acts, and one of them says it's unnatural because you're not supposed to put something 'in' the 'out' door. Fat kid says, "But what about the mouth?"

And of course there's the perpetual stereotypes, like wanting to dance, and enjoying Broadway musicals.

[Pattayaguy1999]

Yeah, Steve, there are more false tests for gayness than there are gay men.

When I was still in the closet, a young married lady at work asked me to walk up to her desk and show her my fingers.  I happened to do it palm down and she said, "Oh, you're gay!"  My reply: "Oh darn it, I forgot to take Machismo 101 in high school!"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I read an article on homosexuality and it mentioned the timing of hormones washing over the fetus. Wish I had kept the article, but timing was important in determining if the male fetus was 'straight' or 'gay'. It also said that many gay men had a longer third finger than the second. This may be what the married lady was referring to when she made the "Oh, you're gay!" remark. If anyone has additional info on the timing of hormones or finger length, I would like to see it posted.

[PeaceBlondie]

Yeah, Steve, there are more false tests for gayness than there are gay men.

When I was still in the closet, a young married lady at work asked me to walk up to her desk and show her my fingers.  I happened to do it palm down and she said, "Oh, you're gay!"  My reply: "Oh darn it, I forgot to take Machismo 101 in high school!"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I read an article on homosexuality and it mentioned the timing of hormones washing over the fetus. Wish I had kept the article, but timing was important in determining if the male fetus was 'straight' or 'gay'. It also said that many gay men had a longer third finger than the second. This may be what the married lady was referring to when she made the "Oh, you're gay!" remark. If anyone has additional info on the timing of hormones or finger length, I would like to see it posted.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Finger length? No, she was only commenting on the fact that I presented my hand palm down, not palm up. I never heard about finger length, nor the 'hormones washing over the fetus.' Umm, isn't everybody's third finger their middle finger, and isn't it the longest finger of all? What drugs are you on?

[Pattayaguy1999]

Finger length? No, she was only commenting on the fact that I presented my hand palm down, not palm up. I never heard about finger length, nor the 'hormones washing over the fetus.' Umm, isn't everybody's third finger their middle finger, and isn't it the longest finger of all? What drugs are you on?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No drugs. Perhaps you are counting your thumb as a finger? Second finger generally is the longest but not always. Third finger is the 'ring' finger.Because you have not heard about does not make it false. Others may have read something on this topic and can add to the discussion.

[ChrisP]

News to me..!

ChrisP

[ProThaiExpat]

We really need some of the anally retentive brits who speak of the "Queens English" in other threads to tell us if the thumb is a finger in common usage.

My thumb is the shortest of all, then "pinkie" or "little finger", index finger, ring finger and "climaxing" with my "f.....k you" finger.

There are a lot of people who need to be told if, as in my case, my ring finger being shorter than my middle finger designates me as straight.

[Steve2UK]

We really need some of the anally retentive brits who speak of the "Queens English" in other threads to tell us if the thumb is a finger in common usage.

My thumb is the shortest of all,  then "pinkie" or "little finger", index finger, ring finger and "climaxing" with my "f.....k you" finger.

There are a lot of people who need to be told if, as in my case, my ring finger being shorter than my middle finger designates me as straight.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, my passport admits I'm a Brit (even if my mother was German). Anally retentive? Hmmmm........ well, I've been known to squeeze in that area but that's really a subject for another thread when I'm less sober..... . Queen's (as in HM) English, certainly. Maybe it's the mixed blood, but I've always counted fingers from the little (pinkie) finger. And whatever the arithmetic (math for the US readers), I've always regarded that one as my middle finger. And, yes, it's longer than the others. Contrariwise, I regard the thumb as a thumb not a finger (as in having an opposable finger and thumb). And they're collectively digits. Here endeth the lesson

As for the rest of the theory/myth? All my digits were the same relative length when I was straight.

Edited February 13, 2005 by Steve2UK

[Joey Boy]

I saw an interesting program on 'Discovery' where they found a certain portion of the brain (can't remember) but it was extremely small and near the center... that was larger (or smaller) in males and females. They found that a great deal of gay men had a larger (or smaller) section in that particular portion of the brain. I wish now that I had taken more notice of that program.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yup, read an article somewhere that was similar.. Scientists had taken a load of bent sheep and disected there brains, when their brains were put next to normal sheeps brains there was a certain part of the brain that was smaller in the gay sheep.

article

Edited February 13, 2005 by Joey Boy

[Pattayaguy1999]

News to me..!

ChrisP

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[/quote

I typed in homosexuality + finger length and got this. Not sure how much validity it has, but it is interesting reading.

http://www.unl.edu/rhames/courses/readings...omo_finger.html

[slapdashkitty]

Well the finger thing works for me....

I meant the measuring=gayness...and well the other thing too...

But sorry about all of this "becoming" and "turning" gay....

Repression is a powerful force in the mind...

Strange isn't it...

You never here about gay people "turning" or "becoming" straight?