Jobs offered at the end of training.

[fanchom]

Hey All,

I trust that all are well.

I have just completed a diving life program at www.pjscuba.com/instructorpackage.htm and it is fantastic. You will probablyt have to form your own company to gain a work permit at the end like I am doing right now but excellent value for money and they really do find you work.

Fanchom

[TizMe]

From Novice Open Water Diver to instructor in 6 months...

I certainly wouldn't trust the life of my loved ones with an instructor that might have been only been diving for 6 months and 1 week.

P.A.D.I     Put Another Dollar In.

[fanchom]

I take on board your comments 100%. However saying thatn you must understand that it is intensive 6 days per week and an internship giving a minimum of 100 dives. Personally I got in 260.

I should imagine that most people that learn to dive learn with an instructor with only months of experience.

PADI (you are right Put another Dollar in) states that you must be an Open Water diver for 6 months before applying for your INSTRUCTORSHIP, hence the 6 months is minimum. I personally continued my training as an intern to work up to MSDT which was well worth it.

I really do take on your comments but I was just stating that I would not fault the program or facilities.

I suppose your skepticism would lead to not employing any fresh graduates for a job, having your TV repaired by an electrician with only 1 years experience etc... I know that Scuba Diving is a little different but if treated sensibly then it is extremely safe. I know of instructors that have 15 years experience but as they have been at it so long they are now burned out and do not stay updated with standards etc...In a way I like to think that I am FRESH as completely up to date with standards, have brand new equipment (for me and students) and am more cautios to stick to regulations than many long timers.

My very best regards.

[TizMe]

First of all, I wouldn't let an electrician anywhere near my TV other than to plug it into the wall...  

I also would much prefer that a trained Television repairman had mor than 1 years experience as well, or at least was supervised by one that had.

However, back to diving:

Scuba diving is inherently dangerous.  We cannot breathe water and breathing air underwater involves the risk of decompression illness and lung embolisms.  We can never eliminate these risks but they can be minimized with, among other things, adequate training and experience.

The web site has the following in its own Q & A.

Q. How successful is your job placement scheme?

A. In the entire time that we have been running this program (2 years ++ now) we have been able to place all candidates that wished to be placed in either Thailand or Vietnam. I for one appreciate that this is one of the most important questions. I actually was introduced to diving with the company that I am partnered with right now. Although it was not a "diving life" package that we have now, my (now) partner Steve found me work within 10 days of becoming an instructor.

To rephrase the answer, nobody has ever been rejected from becoming a professional dive instructor. Come on, would you fly in an aircraft that has a pilot trained in an academy that never fails a student? (I use this analogy, because its someone in charge of others' lives, not just their TVs.)

Click here for an interesting article on one of PADI's courses.  

Cyber Diver News Network

I know of instructors that have 15 years experience but as they have been at it so long they are now burned out and do not stay updated with standards etc...

Now there's another glowing recomendation of PADI. By your own admission some of these operators are far from competent to be teaching what can be a dangerous past time.

[fanchom]

Again I take on your comments. I was just trying to give justice to the company that I went through as I found them totally professional.

People do fail the courses. On my I.E there were two guys that failed. I will have to get Pete to update the web site then as it reads wrong. It is all SUCCESSFUL candidates have been placed in jobs.

The two guys that failed did so on minor things but they will be made by Steve and Pete to intern for an additional 2 months before being allowed to re take. If they wish to retake before they will have to attned a different school.

You seem very down on PADI and state that diving is dangerous. If it is treated correctly, the parties involved are sensible, the equipment is well maintained, nobody dives beyond their level of training, direct supervision is maintained etc blah blah blah then it is as dangerous as a game of football but a #### of a lot more fun.

As mentioned I understand your comments etc but feel that you have a rather personal hang up on this subject for one reason or another. You really should not judge the facilities until you have dived through this company etc - this may well change your mind.

My very best regards to you...

Fanchom

[randyksf]

Wow everyone is being so polite in there little disagreement.  Simple fact new instructors with 200 dives should know what they are doing. Provided they are teaching in constant conditions.

However I think someone with less should still not be the only one with experience on the dive.

Diving is common sence. If the equipment fails there are only so many things anyone can do, when you are a 100 feet blow. If there is a medical problem, there are only so many things you can do. If someone freaks out there are only so many things you can do.

I would just judge the Dive master on a person by person basis.

But that is me...

[fanchom]

Dear Sir (?),

I completely agree.

One on one is fine and if with experienced divers taking an advanced or further course then maybe a ratio of 2:1 is fine.

Any more than that and you are absolutely correct that a dive master should be present. The actual PADI standards have higher ratios than these but I err on the side of caution always.

My internship for the dive master course was 7 months alone. During this time I did see a divers (own) equipment fail (BCD low pressure inflator stuck and he was shooting to the surface). During the pre-dive inspection I noted where his vents were at the bottom of his jacket (BCD). I grabbed the vents and we were able to make it slowly and safely to the surface whilst the instructor was able to ascend safely with the couple students to ensure all was ok.

Common sense prevails.

How many very experienced divers or instructors become careless and callous BECAUSE they have the experience. Fresh meat is sometimes good.

My very best regards to you sir...

Fanchom

[TizMe]

You seem very down on PADI and state that diving is dangerous. If it is treated correctly, the parties involved are sensible, the equipment is well maintained, nobody dives beyond their level of training, direct supervision is maintained etc blah blah blah then it is as dangerous as a game of football but a #### of a lot more fun.

Your comments prove exactly my point. PADI do not instruct you to realise just how dangerous diving can be. It is inherently much more dangerous than a game of football but PADI just wants the dollars. There is too much instruction on "marketing" and not enough on safety.

I consider myself an experienced diver, diving for over 8 years every other weekend 2 or 3 dives. I have had the unpleasant experience of having to spend time in a Hyperbaric (recompression) Chamber and then further time in hostpital suffering from re-compression sickness (The Bends).

All standard PADI procedures were followed, newish equipment, it was treated correctly, the parties involved were sensible, the equipment was well maintained, nobody dived beyond their level of training, direct supervision was maintained by an experienced dive instuctor (over 15 years)etc blah blah blah. My dive was even recorded on my dive computer to show the doctor in charge of the Hyperbaric Chamber. He examined in detail the dive profile and basically said "you did everything right, but that doesn't guarantee anything".

So, yes I'm down on PADI and do firmly believe that diving is dangerous. And any instructor that doesn't realise this is fooling themselves and endangering the life of students.

[fanchom]

Thanks for your comments.

So...if I were to boast to having 16 years (more than 15) experience of being a dive instructor that would be ok? What if I were a diving instructor who renewed fees for 16 years but only took one student per month every month. Does that make me a more qualified instructor? Than someone that has been an instructor for maybe 2 years but taught everyday with no holidays? How does that work?

This makes me laugh heartedly. So many comments on other boards you hear people say play ground comments like "well I've been in Thailand for 10 years - I know more". It's like saying, "My brother is older than yours and #### duff you up". Age and time are relative but have no real bearing on experience. I have only been in Thailand for 5 years yet can speak, read and write to a fluent advanced level. I know certain people that have been here for 25 years that could not order Som Tam from a Som Tam stall.

Would you ask the 25 year stayer to translate documents, converse with parties after an accident or give you a guided tour?

Still, this guy MUST know more than I as he's got 20 years (of arrogance) under his belt on me.

This is not an argument but a mere statement. You seem to be a very accomplished diver from you first postings on the topic that could be told - but where do the years come into it?

Just my point of view - sorry for any offense or if anything is taken out of context.

My very best regards...

Fanchom

[TizMe]

When my daughter learned to dive, I had the advantage of having already dived with most of the potential dive instructors and could sort the good from the bad. Most people do not have this opportunity. (In hind sight, my own initial dive instructor was useless).

My main concern with PADI, and you even said so yourself, that there are incompetent instructors around. These instructors are not weeded out by the organisation.

I certainly wouldn't recomend anybody train with an instructor that believes diving is no more dangerous than a game of football.

In the US, slightly less than 1,000 divers are treated for DCS each year. Over 1/2 of those are divers that did not exceed their NDL limits on the table or computer! There were no evident violations of the rules of diving! There are about 100 divers that die from DCS each year.

How many footballers die each year?

Diving is dangerous, but your training has not taught you that.

[fanchom]

Sorry.

[fanchom]

You're so right again.

Am I right in thinking that over 3 million people dive regularly around America annually? If so then your statistics are not so bold and brash (although I do admit that even 1 is too many).

Diving is not dangerous unless you are a F idiot. There again though many people consider people from that side one and the same anyway. All Americans have to have the bigger car, house, bank balance etc so why not the most horrific accident stats also - I bet some are proud. Try reading "The Last Dive" and maybe you'll understand why so many accidents happen. You are right that some people get bent when even within their tables and computers - it woyuld be interesting to know which tables, certifying body and why they were allowed to dive any way.

As mentioned - diving is dangerous if you do not take it seriously and respect it.

Millions and millions of people enjoy this great sport every day of every year - they must all be suicidal or American surely.

My very bst regards...

Let's end this boring tripe for other posters' sake. I was just logging on to say one nice thing.

There's always someone that knows bet....

My training has taught me to be safe, acknowledge the dangers but do not blow them out of proportion. It is people like you that would eventually bring an end to diving.

[TizMe]

Diving is not dangerous unless you are a F idiot.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

As the stats say, half of all DCS casualties were people that dived within defined acceptable guidlines.

Therefore I would say that these people (myself included) are not F idiots.

PADI trains you to believe that if you follow there guidlines then there is no risk. This clearly is not the case.

It is people like you that would eventually bring an end to diving.

This is not the case at all. It is people like me that would like to see much more stringent requirements placed on certifying both instructors and nive divers and therefore make our sport a much safer one.

Some anecdotal evidence.

The level of dive training within PADI is a joke. Take for instance I was on a boat dive not too long ago with some friends on the mid north coast of New South Wales (Australia). On the boat was a group of divers from another store. The participants where all taking part in there PADI Adavanced Open Water. I was talking to one of the participants who was a little nervous.

The first dive was to about 30 - 35m with the possibility of Grey Nurse Sharks as well (sorry no sharks this day though). So I asked her how long she had been diving for. I tell you I almost fell over board at the the reply. The whole group had only just the week before been certified Open Water (they still only had their temp cards). The shop offered them a discount and a cheap weekend away to further their scuba skills.

This is a problem that will only get worse before it gets better. There are already enough dodgy operators out there as it is without one of the largest dive training operators cutting back on the safety standards as well.

PADI's 2-day Scuba Diver course is a step in the wrong direction.  PADI justifies "dumbing down" entry-level course requirements by comparing diving to skiing/snowboarding and arguing that even three and four-day Open Water courses are an obstacle to potential divers who don't have time to learn to dive.

In this sense, the PADI "Scuba Diver" course is a marketing concept designed to increase PADI certifications and expand market share, rather than reduce the inherent risk of diving.  The PADI Open Water course can be completed in three days. The notion that divers should be certified who are unwilling to make even this minimal commitment to learning to safely use underwater life support equipment is grossly irresponsible.

[Kapow Guy]

I can understand where both of you are coming from and I can see you're both talking different things.

TizMe is talking about PADI being the bad guys by not fully stating the dangers of diving to novices and at the same time, setting unrealistic milestones for being an instructor.

Fanchom on the other hand is stating that age does not bring wisdom, that dive years do not translate to smart divers. It's actually substance that makes the quality not the quantity.

So if I wanted to learn what or where should I go to?

[TizMe]

I would recommend searching for a BSAC (British Sub Aqua Club) school. BSAC is the largest diving club worldwide.

I know of two in Thailand, one in Phuket and another in Suratthani (near Ko Samui). Not sure if there's any over Pattaya way.

Even if you do decide to go with a PADI instructor, the most important thing that I would recommend is to ask lots of questions before you pay up.

Try to see beyond the sales pitch.

The ratio of divers to instructors is very important. I've witnessed a dive class of 25 students with one instructor and one dive master (instructors helper). I can't begin to even imagine what would happen if there was any incident occurred.

I think one question that you should definately ask is how dangerous the instructor believes diving to be. If they really do not understand the potential problems that can and do occur, I'd be looking for another.

Definately enjoy learning to dive, but always be aware that it can be a dangerous sport, even if you are not an idiot.