Builders In Breach Of Contract 2

[eddiemonster]

There is an interesting thread running "Builders in Breach of Contract" about a farang considering suing a Thai developer for breach of contract. The general consensus of opinion seems to be that the farang has no chance. But it got me thinking: what if the builder/developer was a farang? Any more chance of success?

[Gold2005]

The probability of getting oneself into this position is reduced to nothing if only people listened to professional advice and acted as they would back in their own country. I am always shocked as to how many people go to any old builder and get homes built with no understanding of construction or checks in to who is building their home. I feel sorry for them but they should check and listen to intelligent people who have lived here and worked here in a professional capacity.

Here is the best advice I can give anyone wanting to build a house here:

Firstly the company should be a registered company and should insure its projects during the construction process. They should have a professional looking web site. If not, they are not serious. They should have an office you can visit. If not, they are not serious or professional. They should be able to show you atleast 2+ homes they have built and be able to let you talk to the owners, either by phone or e-mail. Or even face to face if possible. They should be able to provide references and recommendations. And provide a guarantee and a full legal construction contract that is at least 10 pages long (for house build). If not they are not serious or worth talking to. They should have at least one person with over 10 years experience in building. Preferably from Europe, USA or Australia etc and that experience is both in Thailand and abroad.

There are too many wannabe builders here. Many have never built anything before they came to Thailand. Then you have you local builders who are unlikely to speak good English and many do not understand our expectations of quality and standards. Its a nightmare waiting to happen. Building is a complex and detailed endeavour. Make sure you go to the right people. If not it will cost you alot more in the long run, in court cases, repairs, unfinished works and bad workmanship. Be warned. I have seen and heard about this sort of thing numerous times over many many years of living here. Play it safe and you will have a great experience. Try and be clever when your not and get cheapest quotes, listen to idiots and wannabe experts and you will only have hassles, problems and sleepless nights Do your homework and talk to professional companies.

There are some excellent building companies but naturally they are not going to be the cheapest. Cheap here is a disaster waiting to happen and it is normally where all the problems occur. Never make a decision for a house construction based on cost alone. Check and ask questions and get to know who you are dealing with. I would only ever deal with a construction company if there was a professional foreigner involved (not for any other reason than they know what foreigners expect, speak the same language and can help so much). They are only there to supervise and give advice. But it will help you so much. If you do a search on google and yahoo for Thailand builders or something like that, you will soon find professional companies who can help you. It is good if the architect works with them too. This saves money and keeps the architect in check.

As far as court and taking people to court. The legal system here is actually fair and pretty good. You can take someone to court fairly easily. But it is always worth checking to see if the person you are taking to court actually has assets or any property. If they have nothing then you can get nothing back You can take Thai people or Foreigners to court. But one has to know it is worth it. If you follow my advice above you will greatly reduce the chances of ever having to go to court and probably never have a problem. Use professional construction companies only. Going the cheapest route is a false economy here and you will end up spending more out in repairs and problems. Speak to experts only.

Edited May 22, 2009 by Gold2005

[eddiemonster]

I would only ever deal with a construction company if there was a professional foreigner involved

As you advise, talk to lots of people. Most of them would say "if there was a professional foreigner involved" be extremely careful.

I guess you are "a professional foreigner"? It looks like a nice cut and paste job.

Thanks for the last 2 sentences relevant to the post anyway.

[eljeque]

I just sued my Thai builder and won in court and have received my first payments of 25,000 baht

If his company has no assets, then you are going to have a hard time collecting, and compare it against the cost of your attorney, maybe 30,000 baht.

If you would like to PM me, please feel free.

You would need photos to show what he has completed and also a contract showing what specifically you have paid him to do, and that he has not done some of the work that he has been paid for. LOTS OF PHOTOS

I would only ever deal with a construction company if there was a professional foreigner involved

As you advise, talk to lots of people. Most of them would say "if there was a professional foreigner involved" be extremely careful.

I guess you are "a professional foreigner"? It looks like a nice cut and paste job.

Thanks for the last 2 sentences relevant to the post anyway.

[Gold2005]

I would only ever deal with a construction company if there was a professional foreigner involved

As you advise, talk to lots of people. Most of them would say "if there was a professional foreigner involved" be extremely careful.

I guess you are "a professional foreigner"? It looks like a nice cut and paste job.

Thanks for the last 2 sentences relevant to the post anyway.

You got me. I wrote it in microsoft word I find the spell check easier and its what I am used to. I try to be professional in all I used to do for sure. Naturally I would agree you have to be careful of any company particularly when living outside of the comfort factor of your own country. I have always opted to pay a little bit more and get it done by reputable companies with recommendations and a track record. Its always saved me money and proven successful for me. Each to their own as everyone has their own personal preferences. Just thought it was good advice as it has worked well for me. Hope it helps as I hate to see people get into trouble or have such terrible problems. If everyone was honest with a desire to do a good job it wouldn't happen. But alas we seem not to live in a world like that. But there are the good guys out there. You just have to find them.

Edited May 25, 2009 by Gold2005

[doggie888888]

Most times I agree that "Cheap here is a disaster waiting to happen and it is normally where all the problems occur." The problem in Pattaya is that by paying more, you are not guaranteed any more quality or fewer problems. Often, foreigners (who are basically rejects from their home countries) are charging for the comfort of a white face, but in realty, it has little to do with their quality, competency or skills.

I have had better experience with Thai builders who come recomended by word of mouth. Even if not used to western standards, many of them are wanting to learn and understand, and do deliver when they understand...contrast with my experience with a farang builder who thinks he need not understand my needs and uses unskilled thai labour anyway, with minimal supervision.

After my experience, I am extremely careful in hiring white trash farangs masquerading as professionals here in Pattaya

[eddiemonster]

Most times I agree that "Cheap here is a disaster waiting to happen and it is normally where all the problems occur." The problem in Pattaya is that by paying more, you are not guaranteed any more quality or fewer problems. Often, foreigners (who are basically rejects from their home countries) are charging for the comfort of a white face, but in realty, it has little to do with their quality, competency or skills.

I have had better experience with Thai builders who come recomended by word of mouth. Even if not used to western standards, many of them are wanting to learn and understand, and do deliver when they understand...contrast with my experience with a farang builder who thinks he need not understand my needs and uses unskilled thai labour anyway, with minimal supervision.

After my experience, I am extremely careful in hiring white trash farangs masquerading as professionals here in Pattaya

The only thing I would change in your post is Pattaya to Thailand. Believe me, there are plenty of foreigners masquerading as professionals all over the place.

Its just a shame you cant sue some of them for breach of contract for inventing a history for themselves

[Gold2005]

Yes I think you are right. Of course there are bad foreigners here. Does that mean we all are ? You guys too ? I hope we are not the only three honest people who like to do and ahave things done properly. Surely not ha haa. No I am not so pessamistic. I have had some great guys build me a house and they had twenty years of good professional experience. One had even worked on Royal homes in the UK. They were a godsend and I can not thank them enough. But you are right, there are also some real bad guys out there too both Thai and foreigner. Dishonesty is not a race issue but a personality problem. Same all over the world.

[eddiemonster]

But you are right, there are also some real bad guys out there too both Thai and foreigner. Dishonesty is not a race issue but a personality problem. Same all over the world.

I completely agree with you its just that in countries such as Thailand, with its easy-going lifestyle and lax enforcement of laws, is a magnet for failures from other countries who can re-invent themselves over here as professionals. Therefore, the proportion of dodgy characters tends to be much higher than you would normally expect.

There are good honest and helpful ex-pats too. Just look at the great help you can get on TV, but as far as I know, it seems that most of these guys have got regular employment and/or have retired from a positive career.

[Gold2005]

I completely agree with you its just that in countries such as Thailand, with its easy-going lifestyle and lax enforcement of laws, is a magnet for failures from other countries who can re-invent themselves over here as professionals. Therefore, the proportion of dodgy characters tends to be much higher than you would normally expect.

You are right there Eddie. Could not agree with you more. Wow and aren't they awful people. I stay well clear of them. Cheap Charlies, morons professing to be professionals and con men acting as if they are clever, stealing people's money and doing a terrible job. No wonder they come here.....as the UK, Australia, Europe or USA would not put up with them and they probably had no friends. It is a sad but true observation you made. However as I say there are excellent expats here too and I have used them successfully before. But one has to be careful. I am a great checker and always ask the right questions to avoid the bad ones. It drives the bad ones mad but any decent professional company can easily answer these questions and not mind either. If somebody has something to hide they won't answer. This is what I ask:

Do you have a company ?

Do you have a work permit ?

How long has your company being going ?

Can you show me works you have done before ?

Can I speak to customers you have done works for before ? I want a reference or recommendation.

How long has the porject manager been in construction and was it your chosen career ?

Do you insure the project during construction ?

Do you have an office ?

Do you offer a guarantee and a proper legal contract ?

Who oversees the project ?

etc etc

When wanting to build my home, I asked this of over 4 builders. They either never replied, lied or could not answer and ignored my questions. If someone does not e-mail back within 24 hours, it is a clear sign of what you can expect of their service. If someone does not make themselves available to you during normal working hours, it is what you can expect later on. If someone constantly has their mobile off, they are going to be terrrible to deal with during construction. These are all bad signs and my advice is walk away from them immediately. Avoid them like the plague and do not do any further business with people like this.

The guys at Kensington, who I used to build my house answered all my questions, answered e-mails within hours, helped me very step of the way and were so appreciative of the work. Hence why I chose them. Good job too as they did a cracking job for me. Never moaned once, always were helpful and came back several times to sort anything out. All in all they provided me with what we should all expect: a good professional, honest service at a fair price. I was happy to pay for it. And would recommend them to anyone because they did what they said they would and more. And that is half the battle in business particularly here. Honesty goes a long way in my book.

Avoid the bad ones and keep smiling

[samILO]

There is by law no difference of Thai suing Thai or Thai suing Foreigner or Foreigner suing Thai or Foreigner suing a foreigner. Once you are in court, the legal arguments are what count, and I do this since 15 years, by working in a professional law firm being in court as interpreter or for arbitration.

[loong]

I had very little input in this house and would never have put up with the shoddy work that so many Thais will accept. Now, I'm constantly doing repairs to a house completed 2 years ago.

Too many want to do the job as quick as possible with the minimum of effort, so choose a builder very carefully.

I reckon that the guy who cuts my hair would have done a better job. At least he takes his time and can actually make my thatch look good. He takes pride in what he does - a rare quality.

[steelepulse]

Lol. I love how a 3 year old thread was revived by said pumper of Kensington. Now that's a bloke trying to help out a fellow person looking for an honest and good builder.