Huey Tung Tao

[earlofwindermere]

I was at Huey Tung Tao this morning to use the 5 km running track. However; it's no longer 5km. It appears that they are building a large temple in the middle of the trails. A lot of trees have been cut down and part of the running loop has been removed. It's a sad sight. I know that many farang (and Thais) use the running / biking trails. Does anyone know what is going on?

[jackr]

That is a shame. I've also used that track a fair bit in the past and it was perfect. Spose only a matter of time before they realise the full potential of the place and totally <deleted> it up

[Puwa]

According to the woman who runs the restaurant up front, an influential monk cut a deal with the army (that's army land) to build a shrine, chedi, shops, etc. The deal is that the monk will raise money for the project, spend the minimum to get the job done, then split the remainder with the local army brass.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

The deal is that the monk will raise money for the project, spend the minimum to get the job done, then split the remainder with the local army brass.

If that's the case then I think we should all appreciate it because of the unique Thai character of the undertaking.

Thai heritage isn't limited to art or architecture. We should appreciate it as a perfect expression of Thai culture. And this is just executed magnificently.. monks (who aren't even supposed to touch money) raising funds which then flow to influential army people under the table.. A work of art. sniff.. I should stop now or I'll get emotional about it.

Edited May 25, 2009 by WinnieTheKhwai

[Loaded]

According to the woman who runs the restaurant up front, an influential monk cut a deal with the army (that's army land) to build a shrine, chedi, shops, etc. The deal is that the monk will raise money for the project, spend the minimum to get the job done, then split the remainder with the local army brass.

The army have been doing the construction as well. They've dug deep ponds surrounding the buildings but the land is on an angle so will be interesting to see what they look like when filled.

They moved the exercise track car park as well to an area with little shade.

I guess it's now a 4.7km exercise track.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

The army have been doing the construction as well. They've dug deep ponds surrounding the buildings but the land is on an angle so will be interesting to see what they look like when filled.

Chances are the water surface will be horizontal regardless.

[Ajarn]

monks (who aren't even supposed to touch money)

Where did you hear this?

I don't believe it because a monk would hsve a hard time doing most anything without touching money.

Thammayut monks, okay, but they aren't most of the monks....

Edited May 25, 2009 by Ajarn

[MonsieurHulot]

.

Edited May 25, 2009 by MonsieurHulot

[Loaded]

The army have been doing the construction as well. They've dug deep ponds surrounding the buildings but the land is on an angle so will be interesting to see what they look like when filled.

Chances are the water surface will be horizontal regardless.

true but I meant deep one end of the ponds and shallow the other

[WinnieTheKhwai]

monks (who aren't even supposed to touch money)

Where did you hear this?

In a temple?

I don't believe it because a monk would hsve a hard time doing most anything without touching money.

Thammayut monks, okay, but they aren't most of the monks....

True, of course, but usually around themples there'd be people taking care of the financial affairs that you inavitably need to get anything done. When you donate money to make merit you typically don't hand it to a monk, at the very least you put it in an envelope, and more likely still you'd then put it in a collection box.

I agree with you that in this day and age these things are very much 'worked around', but I think the greater point stands that in Buddhism, it's frowned upon for monks to engage in rampant trading and wealth accumulation. (And yes, it happens, but it's frowned upon. And if monks take it too far they do end up de-frocked.)

Here you see it illustrated.. Along with the other things that are frowned upon in Buddhism, which ironically are all hobbies of mine.

Edited May 25, 2009 by WinnieTheKhwai

[cmsally]

I bet the Kamagan wat have some military connections

[Ajarn]

it's frowned upon for monks to engage in rampant trading and wealth accumulation. (And yes, it happens, but it's frowned upon. And if monks take it too far they do end up de-frocked.)

This has nothing to do with what you said.

True, of course, but usually around themples there'd be people taking care of the financial affairs that you inavitably need to get anything done. When you donate money to make merit you typically don't hand it to a monk, at the very least you put it in an envelope, and more likely still you'd then put it in a collection box.

Monks do most of it, and envelopes with money isn't just for monks, but is the standard form of payment for most anyone, and is a Thai Standard. Fact is, most monks have no restrictions against handling money.

Edited May 25, 2009 by Ajarn

[WinnieTheKhwai]

> This has nothing to do with what you said.

I'm saying it now. Again the greater point remains lost on you.. Are you TRYING to miss it?

Monks should not be trading, making money and/or accumulating wealth or assets.

Can't put it simpler than that. Sorry if I wasn't clear in my first reply. Sheesh.

[Ajarn]

> This has nothing to do with what you said.

I'm saying it now. Again the greater point remains lost on you.. Are you TRYING to miss it?

Monks should not be trading, making money and/or accumulating wealth or assets.

Can't put it simpler than that. Sorry if I wasn't clear in my first reply. Sheesh.

Still no restrictions on handling money.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

The Buddhist Monk's Discipline

Some Points Explained for Laypeople

by Bhikkhu Khantipalo

[...]

Money

Regarding money, there are some bhikkhus who are of the opinion that this training rule cannot be kept in the modern world: they are willing to handle it for their own transport. (The use of money by bhikkhus is certainly not a new thing, since the original cause for the holding of the Second Sangayana at Vesali, in Buddhist Era 100, was the acceptance of gold and silver by them.) Laypeople are also heard to criticize bhikkhus who do not agree to handle money, on the grounds that this impedes the work of spreading Dhamma. On the other hand, there are traditions where bhikkhus bear in mind that this is an offense of expiation with forfeiture, while Lord Buddha has: "I do not say, O bhikkhus, that in any way may gold or silver (= money and valuables, according to the Commentary) be consented to, may be looked about for." The Second Sangayana ruled that it was inadmissible for bhikkhus to possess money and referred to the training rule in the Patimokkha (Nissaggiya Pacittiya 18).

Where this rule is fully adhered to, laypeople do not therefore give money to bhikkhus, nor expect them to carry it. Money can be made available for the use of a bhikkhu but not given to him. Such money, which is called after that which it purchases, the "four supports,"14 remains the property of the donor but is kept by the bhikkhu's steward or attendant (who is often a lay-disciple in training) to be used whenever this becomes necessary. At the time when such "four supports" are made available, the donor may say to a bhikkhu (or bhikkhus), "I invite you, sir, with this sum of... for the four supports," at the same time handing that amount to the bhikkhu's steward. Or a bhikkhu may receive from the hand of a layman a slip of paper reading; "I invite you with the four supports equal in amount to the sum of... which has already been handed to the steward. As you have need of it, please request it from him." Whatever is needed is then bought by the steward from that money. In this tradition, a bhikkhu has no money troubles and may leave such affairs to his steward. He is thus free from thoughts on having only a little, and not troubled by thoughts of what he will buy if there be much money. He can therefore concentrate on the work of Dhamma and Vinaya which he has chosen as his life.

Other items which it is not allowable for a bhikkhu to touch include: fruits (when still growing on trees), weapons, poisons (unless as prescribed by medicines), nets and snares, seeds, and musical instruments. Generally he will have no need of radio or television either!

[WinnieTheKhwai]

And:

The Patimokkha (monastic code) according to the Theravada school of Buddhism

Under the Theravada tradition, fully ordained Bhikkhus have to observe 221 precepts or training rules while novice monks or Samaneras have to keep 10 basic precepts.

One of these precepts explicitly forbids both Bhikkhus and Samaneras to accept or hoard money:

“Jatarupa-rajata-patiggahana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami (I undertake the precept to refrain from accepting gold and silver)”

It is also an offence for Bhikkhus to “pick up” or “consent to the deposit of gold or silver (money)”

“Should any bhikkhu take gold and silver, or have it taken, or consent to its being deposited (near him), it is to be forfeited and confessed.”(Nis. Paac. 18; BMC p.214)

“Should any bhikkhu pick up, or cause to be picked up or consent to the deposit of gold or silver, this entails Confession with Forfeiture.” (Nis. Paac. 18; Paat. 1966 Ed. p.42)

“A monk, who accepts gold or money or gets another to accept for him, or acquiesces in its being put near him, commits [an offence requiring Confession with Forfeiture.]” (Nis. Paac. 18; BBC p.116)

“If a bhikkhu himself receives gold and silver (money) or gets someone else to receive it, or if he is glad about money that is being kept for him, it is [an offence of Confession with Forfeiture.]“(Nis. Paac. 18; Nv p.11)

Bhikkhus are only allowed to keep four basic requisites of robes, shelter, food and medicines to maintain their physical bodies for the purpose of practising meditation with the eventual aim of freeing oneself from all defilements.

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhi...ld/faqmonks.htm

There's more, but we're already ridiculously distracted. I don't want to stubbornly focus on a minor point and will not reply on this issue hereafter.

[earlofwindermere]

Regardless of the tangent, it is really a shame that the corruption is happening and that we are losing a great park in the process. It always amazes me that this kind of thing is permitted to happen here.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

It always amazes me that this kind of thing is permitted to happen here.

Seriously, it amazes you? It it was permitted to happen in Sweden, THAT would amaze me.

Or even stronger: Isn't a big part of you (and myself, and many others,) being here in the first place very much related to so many things being permitted here? ( "Almost anything is permitted" == "freedom", the reverse side of that coin spelled 'moderate lawlessness and rampant corruption' ? )

You could have it your way, but then this forum would be SwedishVisa.

[MonsieurHulot]

Or even stronger: Isn't a big part of you (and myself, and many others,) being here in the first place very much related to so many things being permitted here? ( "Almost anything is permitted" == "freedom", the reverse side of that coin spelled 'moderate lawlessness and rampant corruption' ? )

Agreed.

[Ajarn]

And:

The Patimokkha (monastic code) according to the Theravada school of Buddhism

Under the Theravada tradition, fully ordained Bhikkhus have to observe 221 precepts or training rules while novice monks or Samaneras have to keep 10 basic precepts.

One of these precepts explicitly forbids both Bhikkhus and Samaneras to accept or hoard money:

“Jatarupa-rajata-patiggahana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami (I undertake the precept to refrain from accepting gold and silver)”

It is also an offence for Bhikkhus to “pick up” or “consent to the deposit of gold or silver (money)”

“Should any bhikkhu take gold and silver, or have it taken, or consent to its being deposited (near him), it is to be forfeited and confessed.”(Nis. Paac. 18; BMC p.214)

“Should any bhikkhu pick up, or cause to be picked up or consent to the deposit of gold or silver, this entails Confession with Forfeiture.” (Nis. Paac. 18; Paat. 1966 Ed. p.42)

“A monk, who accepts gold or money or gets another to accept for him, or acquiesces in its being put near him, commits [an offence requiring Confession with Forfeiture.]” (Nis. Paac. 18; BBC p.116)

“If a bhikkhu himself receives gold and silver (money) or gets someone else to receive it, or if he is glad about money that is being kept for him, it is [an offence of Confession with Forfeiture.]“(Nis. Paac. 18; Nv p.11)

Bhikkhus are only allowed to keep four basic requisites of robes, shelter, food and medicines to maintain their physical bodies for the purpose of practising meditation with the eventual aim of freeing oneself from all defilements.

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhi...ld/faqmonks.htm

There's more, but we're already ridiculously distracted. I don't want to stubbornly focus on a minor point and will not reply on this issue hereafter.

Thank you for the excellent information. I was wrong to suggest that it is okay for monks to handle money

[earlofwindermere]

This week's Chiang Mai Mail just arrived at my house. Ironically, this topic made it to the front page of the paper.

Apparently it's being constructed by a famous Astrologer (Warin Buaviratlert) and is causing a lot of controvery in the local community.

[cmsally]

A mentor to Gen. Sonthi, no less.

[cmsally]

Chiang Mai Mail

Article here

[IanForbes]

It always amazes me that this kind of thing is permitted to happen here.

Seriously, it amazes you? It it was permitted to happen in Sweden, THAT would amaze me.

Or even stronger: Isn't a big part of you (and myself, and many others,) being here in the first place very much related to so many things being permitted here? ( "Almost anything is permitted" == "freedom", the reverse side of that coin spelled 'moderate lawlessness and rampant corruption' ? )

You could have it your way, but then this forum would be SwedishVisa.

Good point, Winnie. It is just that wild west lawlessness that is somehow appealing in Thailand. Of course, it's also a source of frustration. I've always been a bit of a rebel who follows his own set of standards. None of my personal standards encroach on the rights of others, but they don't necessarily follow the norm.

[daoyai]

Amusing how astrology has been fused with "buddhism" rather pathetic.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Amusing how astrology has been fused with "buddhism" rather pathetic.

Again, that is very Thai. Many (if not most) Thai Buddhists would engage in some form of astrology. If not outright fortune telling, then at the very least they'd consult with monks or astrologers on setting 'auspicious' days for major events in life, such as a wedding day or a house building ceremony. Signs of Feng Shui are all around, too.

To the letter of Buddhist scripture this is indeed not a Buddhist thing, but neither are ghosts and spirts and chao thee chao din worship, amulets and all kinds of other hocus pocus, but just look around...

Thai beliefs is a lot more than just Buddhism, and to call those additional things (usually animist things) pathetic is to call a big part of Thai culture and religion pathetic. (I'm more than ok with any form of religion anywhere being called pathetic, but just wanted to spell it out )

Edited May 27, 2009 by WinnieTheKhwai

[daoyai]

All quite true, I guess what I meant was to say that when the leaders are guided by astrologers and fortune tellers instead of basic Buddhist precepts......