Farang To Teach Thai

[Lost in LOS]

i would be interested in learning basics and intermediate Thai from a farang teacher that knows what they are doing. for intermediate to advanced i would use a native. i know lots of words but have trouble putting sentences together [maybe even in English : ) ] any thai teacher in pattaya/jomtien is welcome to pm me

[ThaiMaiYaak]

I would like to gauge whether people would be interested in learning Thai from a foreigner.

I do believe that learning Thai from a foreigner has merits. And not just Thai, but any foreign language. Locals did not go through the same struggles as a second language learner in their own language, so cannot relate to all the niggling problems that hold up the process (and sometimes bring it to a complete stop). And for Thai (as mentioned), there is the additional learning by rote issue...

But I also believe that the tones need to be honed with the help of a local Thai. I've never heard an expat speak Thai without an accent. And while there may be some out there, I don't know any personally.

Even though my Thai accent is good, I think it is irrelevant when teaching a beginner that their accent has to be perfect. As mentioned before, the only way your accent improves is by reading/writing and then listening/speaking everyday. I am fortunate that I have an aptitude for languages but I am sure that most farang who want to speak Thai are not bothered if they sound 100% like a native. Just picking up the language is enough and then work on the accent later.

[Rionoir]

I think that the premise you don't learn a good accent until you can read and write is completely false... and saying that you "only" improve your accent with reading and writing is completely ridiculous. Reading and writing will never help someone distinguish between something like the frequently subtle difference between a high tone and a rising tone, for example... even a middle tone and a low tone can sound nearly identical sometimes, and this is a nuance that no farang is going to be able to teach... and certainly reading and writing isn't going to teach it.

Actually, all reading and writing is going to do, if taught too soon, is solidify a farang's tones so that they speak very rigidly.. instead of naturally.

[dvc]

I think that the premise you don't learn a good accent until you can read and write is completely false... and saying that you "only" improve your accent with reading and writing is completely ridiculous. Reading and writing will never help someone distinguish between something like the frequently subtle difference between a high tone and a rising tone, for example... even a middle tone and a low tone can sound nearly identical sometimes, and this is a nuance that no farang is going to be able to teach... and certainly reading and writing isn't going to teach it.

Actually, all reading and writing is going to do, if taught too soon, is solidify a farang's tones so that they speak very rigidly.. instead of naturally.

ThaiMaiYaak's contention that, "the only way your accent improves is by reading/writing and then listening/speaking everyday", far from being completely ridiculous, is in fact, quite accurate. My own experience and the experience of listening to other native English speakers' attempts at speaking Thai, confirm this. The inability to read and write produces a quality of spoken Thai, that in my experience, ranges from just passable to execrable. Although I see no need to study the written language in the very early stages; by the time a student reaches the third or fourth month, exposure to written Thai is essential if further progress is to be made. I remember very clearly experiencing a sense of "the door opening" when I finally comprehended the Thai writing system. The feeling was one of liberation and clarity. The tones and phonetics of the language finally made sense, and I was at last free to acquire new vocabulary from a variety of sources. To be sure, the ability to read and write goes hand in hand with listening to many different native Thai speakers. The differences between strict interpretation of the written word and that of everyday speech can then be noted and put into practice.

Rionoir's statement, "Reading and writing will never help someone distinguish between something like the frequently subtle difference between a high tone and a rising tone, for example... even a middle tone and a low tone can sound nearly identical sometimes, and this is a nuance that no farang is going to be able to teach... and certainly reading and writing isn't going to teach it", does not fit with my experience. Having a mental picture of a Thai word or words, in the native writing system, in conjunction with the sound produced by a native speaker, makes it much easier for me to distinguish between tones.

[BigSnake]

Yes yes, to a good looking female farang, would love to have her teach me some dirty Thai words Any takers out there? Over to you.

[ozsamurai]

I am in the same position, having mastered Japanese in my 20yrs there. I would help so many to through their first steps into a language and beyond if they asked, I would take lessons from you for sure, and help get over the initial hurdles I have with Thai. The responses when I push a question home to a native usually is 'I don't know', natives never think about their own language, they just speak it really, whereas a farang has had to disect it to a level for comprehension. Pronunciation I would then take to the streets as a double check.

I'll join a McD's class anyday, I've made some wonderful friends by real language exchange.

Oz

[desi]

The responses when I push a question home to a native usually is 'I don't know', natives never think about their own language, they just speak it really, whereas a farang has had to disect it to a level for comprehension.

What bothers me is when I ask and they feel they need to pick an answer or lose face. Then everything goes haywire when the parts don't fit for me.

I may be a slow learner, but unlearning takes longer.

[ThaiMaiYaak]

I think that the premise you don't learn a good accent until you can read and write is completely false... and saying that you "only" improve your accent with reading and writing is completely ridiculous. Reading and writing will never help someone distinguish between something like the frequently subtle difference between a high tone and a rising tone, for example... even a middle tone and a low tone can sound nearly identical sometimes, and this is a nuance that no farang is going to be able to teach... and certainly reading and writing isn't going to teach it.

Actually, all reading and writing is going to do, if taught too soon, is solidify a farang's tones so that they speak very rigidly.. instead of naturally.

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Can you read and write Thai ?

[Gwindarr]

I think that the premise you don't learn a good accent until you can read and write is completely false... and saying that you "only" improve your accent with reading and writing is completely ridiculous. Reading and writing will never help someone distinguish between something like the frequently subtle difference between a high tone and a rising tone, for example... even a middle tone and a low tone can sound nearly identical sometimes, and this is a nuance that no farang is going to be able to teach... and certainly reading and writing isn't going to teach it.

Actually, all reading and writing is going to do, if taught too soon, is solidify a farang's tones so that they speak very rigidly.. instead of naturally.

Ok. Of course it is possible to speak "correctly" without being able to read and write. Children pull it off right for a bit right?

I'm not saying its impossible to speak Thai correctly without reading and writing. But its a lot more difficult and you miss out on so much, so why would you bother?

Then again, if you can't read and write - you are illiterate. Is this acceptable in any other situation you can think of? If a Thai person in your country spoke pretty good English, but was illiterate, how would you feel about them? While illiterate people might not be unintelligent, they will almost certainly seem so as a huge percentage of what we learn in life comes from reading.

Reading and writing will never help someone distinguish between something like the frequently subtle difference between a high tone and a rising tone, for example...

Sure it does. Especially in Thai. I thought my Thai was pretty passable until I learned to read properly ..than after a while I learned to speak properly. It all makes sense once you get over that first hill and start reading stuff. Then you can start associating those sounds with images (words) in a script with sounds completely separate from your native language. One of problems the people seem to have when learning a new language is that we tend to try to use the sounds we already have in the new language - especially if they are similar.

.. even a middle tone and a low tone can sound nearly identical sometimes, and this is a nuance that no farang is going to be able to teach... and certainly reading and writing isn't going to teach it.

I bet I could help you learn to recognize the tone differences faster than most (any?) Thai teachers. It becomes second nature, in real speech you aren't thinking about what tone every (any!) word is just like you aren't thinking in terms of grammatical terms. The more connections you make to the sound the better. I wouldn't want to rely just on aural memory for something if I didn't have to. I like to hit it from all possible angles to make sure it stays for good.

[Rionoir]

Yes I can read and write a fair bit.. can read newspapers, although a bit slowly, and chat with many of my friends online in Thai. And as I said, I think that reading and writing helps one to remember the tones of certain words, and makes it clearer what particular tone a word is that maybe they were unclear about... but I do not think it helps with an accent. Maybe we are defining accent differently though, this is a possibility. When I say accent I don't think about someone saying the right tones with the right word... but I am talking about saying the tones to sound more like a native speaker. And many farang that see Thai written down and have the tones for all the words spelled out for them right from the beginning... they will sound like a computer saying Thai. Their tones are odd and unnatural sounding, and spaced very far apart... and I think if someone learns to read and write from the beginning it just solidifies that. I think a solid foundation in hearing and speaking Thai prior to seeing it is very beneficial.

[desi]

As long as you know the basics and some vocabulary ( 500+ words ). You are able to understand bits of what Thais are talking about and from there you are able to practice due to comprehending.....The only way to learn.

I keep reading about these magic 500 words.

Do you have them in a list form?

I'd love to see them.

[Gwindarr]

i would be interested in learning basics and intermediate Thai from a farang teacher that knows what they are doing. for intermediate to advanced i would use a native. i know lots of words but have trouble putting sentences together [maybe even in English : ) ] any thai teacher in pattaya/jomtien is welcome to pm me

I wish I had someone to steer me around all the silliness I came up with my own the first year or so. I thought I spoke Thai pretty well.

Until, I moved to P-lok anyways. It was there that I began to get schooled. I started noticing differences in sounds. I could read, but just barely. I went through the first grade books and I noticed that some letters sounded different.

Nobody spoke much English so when I asked questions like why หมา and มา sounded different, I got answers like "Because it is." Those answers kinda makes sense now, but at the time I didn't find it very helpful. If I had some farang around who knew all that stuff already and could have explained it to me, I would have progressed much faster.

i know lots of words but have trouble putting sentences together [maybe even in English : )

This doesn't need to be a problem. Rethink your plan of attack. Stop worrying about single words. Learn short phrases and sentences as a whole. After you have a bunch of them you can talk for real.

A pile of words are useless if you don't know how they are used. You will just mess it up because your native language(s) are always going to get in the way causing you to guess - incorrectly of course.

[Rionoir]

"Ok. Of course it is possible to speak "correctly" without being able to read and write. Children pull it off right for a bit right?"

What do you mean "for a bit"... I'd imagine most Thais do not get their accent from reading and writing Thai. Most of them don't even know the tones rules (heck I think I even spell better than most of my friends lol).

[Gwindarr]

"Ok. Of course it is possible to speak "correctly" without being able to read and write. Children pull it off right for a bit right?"

What do you mean "for a bit"... I'd imagine most Thais do not get their accent from reading and writing Thai. Most of them don't even know the tones rules (heck I think I even spell better than most of my friends lol).

You don't need to know the rules. You just need some way to get them in your head until its no longer a conscious activity. In the books used in schools they learn them in groups. I can't remember if they actually refer to the groups as high/low/mid right away or not, but its not necessary. I've taught a handful of foreigners now and I've yet to encounter one who was able to correctly internalize the tones before they were solid with the alphabet and had assimilated all the rules. You could accomplish the same thing with rote and drills, but most adults aren't willing to sit through that. It would suck!

I have a friend who has been here about a year. His Thai is pretty limited, but when he wants to he can imitate things that people have said very well. But he has no idea what it means and no way to connect it to the Thai when he is actually speaking. So he could say the word correctly and he does sometimes, but not when he is talking. Only when he is copying someone else. Do you see what I'm saying?

It helps tremendously if you can associate the sounds, the words, everything with a bunch of other things. The more connections you make to things you already know, the easier everything becomes.

[Rionoir]

You've never met a farang who could internalize tones until they could read?!?!?! You've either met a lot of tone deaf farang, or something is wrong with the way they are learning. I learned my first bit of Thai from some CDs, and when I came to Bangkok my friends all commented on how good my accent was. (I've had friends hang up on me before after I answer my phone because they thought a Thai person answered and they called the wrong number lol) Copying a native speaker when learning a foreign language is really a must if you want to have a native sounding accent.

I still get the feeling we are talking about apples and oranges though... I don't consider speaking the correct tones an "accent"... In Thai the tone is just part of the word, like spelling... but "accent" is much broader than just saying the tone. Farang who learn tones from reading them have weird sounding tones in my opinion... they need to be copied from a Thai speaker.

[inthepink]

The biggest compliment I get is I arrange a meeting and on arrival they are surprised to see a Farang face. Before anyone says "unlikely", check out a young guy on youtube, author is "jadambrad". I think his accent is excellent.

If your accent is no better than his then I don't think it's a good idea you teach other people, to be honest. He's nowhere near native speaker level. And I totally disagree with this -

Just picking up the language is enough and then work on the accent later.

As desi said, unlearning something takes much longer, and I think that goes double for bad pronunciation. Edited June 4, 2009 by inthepink

[Gwindarr]

You've never met a farang who could internalize tones until they could read?!?!?! You've either met a lot of tone deaf farang, or something is wrong with the way they are learning. I learned my first bit of Thai from some CDs, and when I came to Bangkok my friends all commented on how good my accent was. (I've had friends hang up on me before after I answer my phone because they thought a Thai person answered and they called the wrong number lol) Copying a native speaker when learning a foreign language is really a must if you want to have a native sounding accent.

I still get the feeling we are talking about apples and oranges though... I don't consider speaking the correct tones an "accent"... In Thai the tone is just part of the word, like spelling... but "accent" is much broader than just saying the tone. Farang who learn tones from reading them have weird sounding tones in my opinion... they need to be copied from a Thai speaker.

You've never met a farang who could internalize tones until they could read?!?!?!

None that I'm aware of.

Copying a native speaker when learning a foreign language is really a must if you want to have a native sounding accent.

Absolutely.

I don't consider speaking the correct tones an "accent"... In Thai the tone is just part of the word, like spelling... but "accent" is much broader than just saying the tone.

Me neither. I thought you were saying 'accent,' but referring to tones and or pronunciation in general.

Since that isn't the case. Can you give some examples of what you are referring to please? We might all have different ideas about what we are talking about.

I think if you look over what other people have been posting in this topic, they seem to be referring to pronunciation (of vowels and/or tones) rather than 'accent'.

I'm also wondering if we haven't somehow gotten way off topic. So let me bring it back a bit.

When I teach, I'm not by any means their primary Thai input. I just give them useful sentences and other things that they won't find in phrase books or textbooks. I also help them work up towards pronouncing things correctly which just takes practice. Your mouth needs to get used to creating the new sounds. I break up materials for them so they can read (because I remember how frustrating it is to find good stuff to read that doesn't seem overbearing) and listen to stuff thats interesting and useful. And most importantly, I can answer most of their questions about why/what people are saying (or how to say stuff) when native speakers can not answer their questions. I'm not driving, I'm just the navigator with a bit more experience than those I teach. The idea is to save them lots of time and frustration and its usually quite fun for everyone involved.

Edited June 4, 2009 by Gwindarr

[wackysleet]

I do not really understand peoples reluctance to learn thai from a falang even though I've heard all your arguments, I'm pretty sure a lot of the posters here have kids that are taught English by a thai teacher who more often than not to me at least speaks unintelligible english, my 8yr old is the only child of mixed race in her class, and speaks decent english, the other children are very poor and the same goes for my 17yr old that has just started university, I have yet to meet a thai child of any age that can enunciate clearly in english. and in my experience a lot of thais speak bad thai as well, they are not all university taught.

[meadish_sweetball]

You've never met a farang who could internalize tones until they could read?!?!?! You've either met a lot of tone deaf farang, or something is wrong with the way they are learning. I learned my first bit of Thai from some CDs, and when I came to Bangkok my friends all commented on how good my accent was. (I've had friends hang up on me before after I answer my phone because they thought a Thai person answered and they called the wrong number lol) Copying a native speaker when learning a foreign language is really a must if you want to have a native sounding accent.

I still get the feeling we are talking about apples and oranges though... I don't consider speaking the correct tones an "accent"... In Thai the tone is just part of the word, like spelling... but "accent" is much broader than just saying the tone. Farang who learn tones from reading them have weird sounding tones in my opinion... they need to be copied from a Thai speaker.

I am not sure if you are referring to self-taught people or what?

Most people who take formal training in Thai have native Thai instructors who speak perfectly natural Thai, albeit in the formal register. It is the norm when studying a foreign language at school that one starts with the polite and formal register and proceeds to gradually branch out to other registers later on.

Slang and casual speech are best picked up outside of the classroom in context, during leisure activities, at the pub or restaurant, etc.

That some people at first sound a little contrived when practicing tones in isolation is completely normal, and if they keep up their immersion by hanging out with Thais either in the workplace or in their spare time, or both, they will eventually end up with a more natural flow (and natural tone sandhi which is suspect is what you are hinting at).

As they progress, they will master additional registers rather than just the formal one, and won't sound so contrived anymore.

Trying too hard to sound like a native speaker but failing to find a comfortable level of voice for oneself is the opposite of what you are describing but also quite common - the language learner overdoes features such as nasality, vowel length and even changes his own natural voice frequency to a higher one (which is straining on the vocal cords and by no means necessary for making oneself understood).

Not to mention men who have no male Thai friends and for that reason emulate the speech and mannerisms of much younger women.. they can end up sounding quite funny.

[Rionoir]

Wow... random!

[ThaiMaiYaak]

Not to mention men who have no male Thai friends and for that reason emulate the speech and mannerisms of much younger women.. they can end up sounding quite funny.

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Love that!! If you try to emulate the natives and only hang around young girls your accent could turn out quite funny! Its like living in England and only speaking to people from Birmingham and so hence picking up that accent. - Not ideal !

All this talk about trying to sound native is not what I was trying to get at by starting this thread. Not everyone wants to speak Thai to the level of native speaker. As we have discussed/argued, it is very difficult to sound native. What most people would be happy with is to be fluent without necessarily sounding 100% native.

My example of that young guy on youtube was just to illustrate that most Farang would be more than happy to get to his ability level. Lets face it, you don't meet many Farang that speak as well as him. The fact that you could still identify a farang accent is neither here nor there.

Edited June 5, 2009 by ThaiMaiYaak

[inthepink]

Of course not everyone wants to get to the level of a native speaker. They do presumably want to get as close as they can though, with the time and effort they are willing to put in. My worry, if I were a beginner, would be picking up bad pronunciation from a non-native. To try and emulate somebody's imperfect pronuncaition is only going to put you even further away from the correct pronunciation than they are.

[garro]

Of course not everyone wants to get to the level of a native speaker. They do presumably want to get as close as they can though, with the time and effort they are willing to put in. My worry, if I were a beginner, would be picking up bad pronunciation from a non-native. To try and emulate somebody's imperfect pronuncaition is only going to put you even further away from the correct pronunciation than they are.

Yes. the truth is that it is harder to unlearn something than it is to learn it in the first place. I remember during the 90's a lot of my friends went to work on German building sites. They picked up German from the other non-native speaker migrant workers. Later when they wanted to learn to speak proper German they found it almost impossible to get rid of their previous bad speaking habits.

[ThaiMaiYaak]

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quote]

Yes. the truth is that it is harder to unlearn something than it is to learn it in the first place. I remember during the 90's a lot of my friends went to work on German building sites. They picked up German from the other non-native speaker migrant workers. Later when they wanted to learn to speak proper German they found it almost impossible to get rid of their previous bad speaking habits.

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For Farang who have got over the initial hurdle I wholeheartedly agree that it would be better to be taught by a native Thai. Unfortunatley there are so few Farang that get to that level because they gave up trying due to finding it too difficult in the first place. However, people who have tried and struggled learning Thai would rip my hand off to be able to speak/understand Thai 90% fluently even if it meant they had a funny accent !! - Not ideal I know but better than being stuck with bar talk.

Edited June 5, 2009 by ThaiMaiYaak

[mayormaynotbewhoyouthink]

Personally I think it is much easier learning a language from someone who speaks the same native tongue as yourself (assuming that they are able to speak up to a high standard). I remeber being at school really struggling with european languages while being taught by a european, then finding it much easier when taught by a teacher who had the same native tongue as myself.

Would be very interested in learning thai on some form of 'idiots guide' as usually fall in to all the usual bad habbits which can take a lifetime to correct, have only been in thailand a couple of weeks so hopefully havent done to much damage with my taxi thai.

Would also be very interested in learning japanese!

[Rionoir]

It's true (and obvious) that many farang don't care a lot about their accent... but it's also true that many farang have a difficult time being understood when they speak Thai. We see the posts here everyday from farang who consider themselves something of an expert in Thai, yet have a really hard time getting anyone to speak Thai with them... you have to believe that is due in part to their accent, because no one I know who speaks pretty decent Thai has any trouble getting people to speak Thai back to them.

Anyway... I do understand the desire to learn from an English speaker... but I'm just saying, be really careful. It's easy for a farang to understand another farang speaking Thai I think, and it might give one a false sense of security about how well they are actually going to be understood in the real world. Thai people that don't deal with farang often, or don't hear farang speak thai often, really do have a heck of a hard time understanding a very farang accent... so the clearer you can get your accent from the start the better. This isn't English... you can't schlep the sound like Thai do when they speak English.

[harrry]

I thin it is esential that initial instruction in Thai is with a nativespeaker. Hover after a year or so, having completed at least begginner and intermediate, it may be that an English speaker could explain grammar subtleties better than a Thai native speaker.

[PeaceBlondie]

Apparently, most native Thai teachers, even at the better schools, only learned to teach Thai to Thais, and never learned how to teach it as a foreign or second language. It appears Thai teaching is stuck in the 19th century. It might be easier to find a good farang Thai teacher than a native.

[Rikker]

As long as you know the basics and some vocabulary ( 500+ words ). You are able to understand bits of what Thais are talking about and from there you are able to practice due to comprehending.....The only way to learn.

I keep reading about these magic 500 words.

Do you have them in a list form?

I'd love to see them.

There's no "magic" list, but there's a pinned topic at the top of the forum with a list of the 1000 most common words. There are actually a few lists in one file there, from different sources with varying results. They're all extracted based on frequency within a particular set of texts. So they come with a disclaimer: they're not checked by a human. But they give a decent idea of the important words to get to know.

(You can read more of the discussion on that thread.)

Edit: I just went and looked on that thread and I see you've replied on there, desi, so I know you know it exists. Maybe I missed your point somehow, then.. ?

[ThaiMaiYaak]

I thin it is esential that initial instruction in Thai is with a nativespeaker. Hover after a year or so, having completed at least begginner and intermediate, it may be that an English speaker could explain grammar subtleties better than a Thai native speaker.

I agree and disagree....can't make up my mind !

Many people I know are still stuck at beginners Thai because they got confused early on after lessons with a Thai teacher.

However I doubt their commitment which is probably the most important thing you need when learning a foreign language.

During the very basic introduction to Thai lessons then a Thai teacher would be fine, until as you say the lesson on grammar and constructing sentences arises and then it usually goes down hill from there if it is explained in a confusing manner.