Is Monkhood Easier To Contemplate If You Have No Possesions?

[Brucenkhamen]

I am very sorry the link didn't work, hope this one does.

http://www.bswa.org/modules/mydownloads/vi...d=4&lid=359

Just like life, of the 3 links this is main one and its the one that didn't work!

I had a listen to this one, other than the comment at question time about letting go of the need to control and realising that when you think you are in control you are influenced by a lot of things, I didn't hear anything about the non existence of free will.

[jamesc2000]

Thank you Brucenkhamen for helping to listen. I can only transcribe what Ajahn Brahm said as camerata suggested as I am not qualified to interpret it.

This is long and its ok if people want to skip it and not read it.

I cannot transcribe the whole talk so people are free to say I took it out of context and I wouldn't disagree. If people think I transcribed it wrongly, they are free to listen themselves.

I am not saying my thoughts that I don't exist or I don't have free will are correct. The beauty of Buddhism is that it is a science and people should test for themselves what is true. And if people think I am completely mad, thats ok too!

But here goes:

"In the great stillness of the mind, that which wants - the will stops.

.....

Time is driven by craving, by will. Its actually craving and will that creates time. So the more we want the more time is important. When we are not wanting anything, when we are still, time disappears. The whole flow of life stops.

I am not just saying that as a theory because that what happens when you get into meditation. How many of you have sat still and experienced timelessness?

10 mins, half an hour, 2 hours have gone by and you haven't been asleep and people can take photographs of you being perfectly upright, you haven't been snoring, perfectly alert and time have lost its meaning why? Because you are being content, the mind has become still, craving creates time.

....

When craving stops, when the mind stops willing and doing, everything becomes very still, as it becomes still just like your body disappears gradually when you stop moving, so does the mind disappear.

The deeper meditations of seeing the mind vanish. Its those experience of seeing the mind vanishing and here I mean that which knows, the knower vanishing, these give even the more powerful insights to see that even that which knows, that which does, just like the ground underneath you is empty of everything, there is literally nothing there. When you see it vanish, you investigate deeply you understand just how insubstantial it is.

It is just a process, an interplay of energies if you wish. Just like the solid matter underneath you, just like this solar system this universe which any scientist will describe to you, in the same way your mind is the same.

These are the insights which people have in the deep meditations.

It challenges us to our core because we think the evidence in front of us is that this thing is solid, that I can hit it but the evidence is sometime misinterpreted, misunderstood, it is not as straight forward as people want it see. And sometime its not what you want to see. One of the great things about truth. Never expect truth to be what you want to believe.

....

Insights take you out of your comfort zones, challenges you and sometime make you very afraid. Strange thing but its the joy, the bliss of freedom which would overcome that fear. Even though you are losing so much of what you thought you were in the deep states of meditation there is so much bliss, so much profound stillness, you can’t avoid it. Its just too attractive, freedom, real freedom. Its just too attractive for you as your mind disappears. As everything goes, as it really is nothing left.

When you understand the nature of the mind, of consciousness, of knowing and doing and seeing it that empty, only then can you understand where does this mind come from and where it will go to, when there is nothing there even now.

When you see its full emptiness you will understand it can come from nothing and more importantly you can understand it can go back to nothing. It can only do that if there is nothing now. You can't destroy anything, you can only change it.

...

The only way things can disappear is they weren’t there in the first place. This is why when we meditate we allow things to disappear. As they disappear we understand how empty they were. As they whole world disappear and with it your mind then you can understand the deeper teachings of a Buddha. You can understand there is nothing here and after a while there will be nothing left. All that arose will one day disappear and pass away.”

...

The answer to the question why, emptiness, nothing there, its powerful. This is what you see when everything disappears. That’s the only place where there can be any stillness. If there is something left, there is always some business left, it can never be an ending of things, never any stillness, never any freedom, never any peace. Whenever there is something left there is always something to do.

If there is nothing left at all then you have real freedom. So that is what Nibbana is, when everything disappears, when there is nothing left. How can that happen? The Buddhist saying there is nothing here to begin with. There is nothing here now. So that is the answer to the question why."

Edited June 19, 2009 by jamesc2000

[Brucenkhamen]

Thank you Brucenkhamen for helping to listen. I can only transcribe what Ajahn Brahm said as camerata suggested as I am not qualified to interpret it.

This is long and its ok if people want to skip it and not read it.

I cannot transcribe the whole talk so people are free to say I took it out of context and I wouldn't disagree. If people think I transcribed it wrongly, they are free to listen themselves.

I am not saying my thoughts that I don't exist or I don't have free will are correct. The beauty of Buddhism is that it is a science and people should test for themselves what is true. And if people think I am completely mad, thats ok too!

These quotes are not about the existance or not of free will. You said "I don't think we have free will", in other words you said you think we have no choice to do what we do, if you're an arahant you had no choice, if I'm an Ax murderer I had no choice. This is not Buddhism.

These quotes are about letting go of will and craving, how do you let go of will and craving? first you've got to want to let go of will and craving, and then you exersize your free will to undergo the process of letting go of will and craving. If you decided no that's all to hard and continued as you always have, that would also be exersizing free will.

I think you are confusing the terms "will" and 'free will". Will is about wanting and trying to make something happen, Free Will is about choosing. That's my understanding of the terms anyway.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Brucenkhamen

[sabaijai]

Thank you Brucenkhamen for helping to listen. I can only transcribe what Ajahn Brahm said as camerata suggested as I am not qualified to interpret it.

This is long and its ok if people want to skip it and not read it.

I cannot transcribe the whole talk so people are free to say I took it out of context and I wouldn't disagree. If people think I transcribed it wrongly, they are free to listen themselves.

I am not saying my thoughts that I don't exist or I don't have free will are correct. The beauty of Buddhism is that it is a science and people should test for themselves what is true. And if people think I am completely mad, thats ok too!

These quotes are not about the existance or not of free will. You said "I don't think we have free will", in other words you said you think we have no choice to do what we do, if you're an arahant you had no choice, if I'm an Ax murderer I had no choice. This is not Buddhism.

These quotes are about letting go of will and craving, how do you let go of will and craving? first you've got to want to let go of will and craving, and then you exersize your free will to undergo the process of letting go of will and craving. If you decided no that's all to hard and continued as you always have, that would also be exersizing free will.

I think you are confusing the terms "will" and 'free will". Will is about wanting and trying to make something happen, Free Will is about choosing. That's my understanding of the terms anyway.

Correct. Right from the get-go Aj Brahm equates 'will' with craving. In fact we need 'will' in terms of intention to follow the 8-fold path, one spoke of which is Right Intention. We are 'free' to cultivate right intention or otherwise.

[rockyysdt]

In fact we need 'will' in terms of intention to follow the 8-fold path, one spoke of which is Right Intention. We are 'free' to cultivate right intention or otherwise.

Technically you're correct but our ability to exercise free will can be dramatically affected.

Ignorance, level of education, low IQ, & negative conditioning, are but a few factors which can affect ones judgment when exercising free will.

Without the benefit of knowing all the facts can't it be said that one's ability to exercise free will is diminished?

[Brucenkhamen]

Ignorance, level of education, low IQ, & negative conditioning, are but a few factors which can affect ones judgment when exercising free will.

Without the benefit of knowing all the facts can't it be said that one's ability to exercise free will is diminished?

Those factors diminish the ability to make a good choice with ones free will, they don't remove the freedom to choose.

This after all is an important fruit of the Buddhist path, having a well developed awareness and sense or morality increases the likelihood that you will make good choices with your free will.

That will of course mean you'll have more freedom that somebody driven by instinct and reactivity, but someone driven by instinct and reactivity has the freedom to choose to find a way out, unless I guess there is mental illness preventing that.

[jamesc2000]

Thank you to all for your kind input. I am learning a lot from all the different views.

Brucenkhamen - and what if I was born with a mental illness? Will you say I deserve it as I must have done bad things in my previous life?

Will the circle continue and get worse? I do bad things in this life so I get a next life with even more mental illness and I do worse things etc etc?

Anyway listening to the talk, I interpret the main point of Ajahn Brahm, correctly or not, as just as the ground we stand on feels solid, it is essentially empty and just like us we are empty. And if the truth is there is nothingness then none of us and nothing exist.

If we don't exist, rightly or wrongly, then we have no will, free or otherwise.

I could well be wrong, maybe nothingness doesn't mean nothing and emptiness doesn't empty and I have mis-interpreted everything.

However I do remember another talk where Ajahn Brahm said, all of you who came for the dhamma talk tonight had no choice but to come even if you tried not to come you would still be here.

Just as some people do bad things, some people cannot do certain bad things. They are just born that way.

I guess some people here do not think their body are theirs just as my car is not me. But I am sure many people think there mind is theirs. And their thoughts and views and beliefs are theirs.

If I hit my head tomorrow and lost all my memory that I cannot even remember my name or my views or beliefs or opinions then how will I behave in my new state? Will I not be a completely new "person". What if I had to find out all again what food I like, what colours I like and what I would do in a certain moral situation?

If in my new state I am a different person, with different views and opinions and values, will I also not act differently? So who is the real me, the old one or the new one?

Or neither?

Edited June 20, 2009 by jamesc2000

[lannarebirth]

I can't speak for others but I find possessions terribly burdensome. Having them might make the monkhood seem more attractive in my case.

[Brucenkhamen]

Brucenkhamen - and what if I was born with a mental illness? Will you say I deserve it as I must have done bad things in my previous life?

Will the circle continue and get worse? I do bad things in this life so I get a next life with even more mental illness and I do worse things etc etc?

No I won't, some people might but not me. That's because the meaning of the word kamma is action. The teaching on kamma is about realising that what I do now will bear results, it's not about speculating about what it might be that may have caused what I'm experiencing now. Kamma is about playing the hand you've been dealt as best you can, not about questioning the dealer as to why you got a bad hand or someone else got a good hand.

Anyway listening to the talk, I interpret the main point of Ajahn Brahm, correctly or not, as just as the ground we stand on feels solid, it is essentially empty and just like us we are empty. And if the truth is there is nothingness then none of us and nothing exist.

If we don't exist, rightly or wrongly, then we have no will, free or otherwise.

I could well be wrong, maybe nothingness doesn't mean nothing and emptiness doesn't empty and I have mis-interpreted everything.

Emptiness does not mean nothingness.

Emptiness doesn't mean we don't exist. Anatta doesn't mean we don't exist. If you checked out the links I posted earlier you'll see that anatta means that all conditioned phenomena are not self, it doesn't mean that nothing exists.

First and foremost anatta should be understood as a skillful means by which we examine and question our assumptions and come to a deeper understanding, not as a doctrine to be believed.

If you feel you don't exist then I suggest put your hand in a doorway and slam the door, I'm sure you'll have an experience of awakening.

This is what the path of practice is supposed to answer, emptiness is something to be experienced, not something to be believed in because somebody on the internet told you about it.

The purpose of Buddhist meditation, among other things, is to cut through the conceptual mind to see the bare reality of things. This is what Ajahn Brahm is talking about when he talks about emptiness and nothingness, unless I'm mistaken. He's not making existential statements about life the universe and everything, rather he's talking about the deep peace that one experiences by letting go of our concepts and mental constructs and seeing the how empty they are, of emptying the mind anf facing the bare reality of things without clinging.

However I do remember another talk where Ajahn Brahm said, all of you who came for the dhamma talk tonight had no choice but to come even if you tried not to come you would still be here.

Just as some people do bad things, some people cannot do certain bad things. They are just born that way.

I suggest you might want to listen to more than just one teacher, then you'll get a more rounded understanding. I don't think the above was intended to be believed literally but rather as something to reflect on, as is the case with most practise oriented dhamma teachers

If I hit my head tomorrow and lost all my memory that I cannot even remember my name or my views or beliefs or opinions then how will I behave in my new state? Will I not be a completely new "person". What if I had to find out all again what food I like, what colours I like and what I would do in a certain moral situation?

If in my new state I am a different person, with different views and opinions and values, will I also not act differently? So who is the real me, the old one or the new one?

Your body, and your mind are constantly changing. You are totally interdependent with the environment you live in. If you can locate a self that is permanent then those questions make sense, but either way that doesn't mean you have no choice about how you act and react to things as you live day to day. If you have no choice then there would have been no point for the Buddha to try and point out a better way, and there is no point getting out of the bed in the morning.

[oldsparrow]

It depend on your tie to the possession. If you have less you are more FREE of worldly possession JUST in the sense that you are more used to humble/less materialism livestyle.

However, the practice of Buddhism focus MORE on the FREE MIND than free of the WORLDLY obligation. Therefore, I think less or no poccession can give practical effects as follows:

1. You live alone. It's up to yor tie with the worldly possession as mentioned.

2. You have family or someone depend on you. In this case your surplus possession MAY give you peace of mind that you have less to worry of their livelyhoods. Like many case you see that many people said "Now my kids can take ca of themselves I have not much tie of this worldly possession/ no need for material struggle."

Most monk, not all, can give up materialistic livestyle. But who know how many can give up materialism MIND.

Edited June 22, 2009 by oldsparrow

[oldsparrow]

Of course we have free will, I'm not aware of any Buddhist teaching that suggests we don't have free will. Sounds like a corruption of dhamma to me, muchlike the notion of kamma as being fate. Our kamma determines what cards we are dealt, sure, but it's our free will that gets to choose to play those cards in such a way as to purify the mind and create a better future, or to play those cards in such a way as to end up with more rounds of suffering.

Is there any Buddhist teaching that teaches we have free will? A pure mind and a better future! I am not even sure I have a mind and is purifying it the best thing to do? A better future? In this life or in the next life? Better as in more peace? More happiness? More comfort? A long life? What is suffering? More work? Less money? No friends? Not being liked and respected? Being hungry? Must always be right? Having bills to pay? No football? No Disco? No girls or movies? I havn't been purifying my mind or trying to create a better future so I am really curious what kind of more rounds of suffering I can expect to get according to Buddhist teachings!

I think the concept of Karma, the cause and effect/the responsibility of one's act, indicates a lot of free will in the teaching. But as you mentioned before too much of choosing leads to vanity and vanity = unfree/struggle/pressure to pursuit.

Vanity to be free in the mind = imprisonment of mind.

In this situation the concept of ปล่อยวาง (let go) is more applicable than the concept of hard working.