Windows Vs Linux

[RKASA]

I think Steve Ballmer knows a thing or two about it.  His words last year at a conference were to the effect Linux is a bigger problem then the Mac and is in use on near 10% of PC's.  He counted the dual boots or at least made an effort to, because it matters to them.  

You cannot use sales data at all it won't work because Linux is free.  Like I said before it has 0 market share, but thats not a comfort to the seller and resellers of windows. They will always work hard at making you beleave linux is to hard, not used, not supported, etc etc etc. FUD FUD FUD.  

The video of the conference I will try to find a link for, but OSnews covered the same points from the same source i.e. Ballmer himself.

From OSnews

http://www.osnews.com/story/21035/Ballmer_...itor_than_Apple

"Much more interesting is Microsoft's idea of Linux and Apple, According to Microsoft, Linux is a bigger threat to the company than Apple, placing Linux above Apple in the marketshare figure pie chart thing. "Linux, you could see on the slide, and Apple has certainly increased its share somewhat,"

I ll take Steves word on the matter.  That was his chart they are talking about.

Is this still a public forum where things are discussed? or a corp ad site where the only corp speech law applies.  If its the later Please close this tread also and my account.

[Richard-BKK]

We use all three operating systems, and all work very well, some operating systems are better suited for some tasks then another operating system.

The problem most MS Windows users have when they try another OS is that it doesn’t work like MS Windows. This you have much less between Apple Mac users and modern Linux distributions.

So what is Linux, and why so many people, at Microsoft, are so scared of it? The problem is that Linux is designed from the first bit to be scalable; it can basically run on all platforms in any form you select.

So why are so many MS Windows users confused about the amount of Linux versions? Linux comes only in two versions, the first is kernel 2.4 and the other is kernel 2.6, and basically if you would install Linux completely yourself you will see something like this

kawasaki@richard-remote:~$

What is basically the command prompt, after this it is up-to-you what you install. Some companies, organizations, clubs, etc… have jumped into this unfriendliness of Linux and have create user-friendly install CD/DVD which include a combination of packages which they think is good for the target group, so are there Linux distributions called Musix, 64 Studio and UbuntuStudio, which are specialized to some degree in audio and sound recording… But you also have PartitionMagic and OpenWall… And you have general multipurpose Linux Distributions like Ubuntu, Fedora, Suse and a few hundred more…

All this Linux distributions use the same Linux kernel, maybe some a bit newer then the other. Lately we also see Distributions appear that use the kernel of OpenSolaris, like MilaX, which has much of a Linux distribution but isn’t really Linux (even it can run some Linux software).

[livinthailandos]

Linux and versions + kernel

I think more needs to be added than just the kernel part although that helps

1. Desktop Choice ( Gnome, KDE, XFCE etc )

2. Level of Difficulty linux has distro's starting from beginner to advanced user (ubuntu - slackware etc )

3. Along with 1 & 2 Will you be using debian resportitory .deb or redhat's .rpm

4. I believe in more of a point you really have to look at the architecture of windows vs mac, linux

5. When I listen to ballmer its like listening to a broken record.

6. As long as linux doesn't have real advertising behind it, most people don't even know what linux is

[Richard-BKK]

Point 1 to 3 make it easier to work with Linux, but they are not required...

[Richard-BKK]

Indeed, a few years ago it was necessary to leave the GUI and use a command line to get things done. This is not needed anymore. Sure some people, the more advanced users still use it, as entering a few commands on a keyboard can be so much faster then clicking on the graphical menus.

[stumonster]

the problem I see mostly is laziness.

no matter what operating system - how do I do x ?

let me just google that for you http://lmgtfy.com - and maybe spend a few hours reading forums , blogs , tutorials and howto's

if you are not prepared to learn , be happy with solitare

[Crushdepth]

Gaming is the only reason I have windows at home. From an admin point of view I would love to move our work network onto it, but my colleagues would scream like babies.

[dave_boo]

Anarchy!!!!

Wonder what has instigated this rash of pro-Linux, Windows bashing support. Guys, don't all get banned. We have a Linux sub-forum where the person that y'all are lashing out against does not post. Please utilise that for these type of threads.

Oh, and btw, I usually run init 3 when in airports. Lynx works just fine......

**edit**

And the wife, who never had computer experience went along just fine with SuSE. Does everything that she needs it to (think gmail via thunderbird, firefox, and skype) without the worries of virus adware or any of that crap. Her gaming consists of Frozen Bubble and Amarok works just fine for her music library and synching to her ipod. She doesn't know that she's running KDE (so if she does have to use Windows on another computer it's 1/2 way there as far as familiarity goes) but she has asked why I use Enlightenment (cause it's pretty). The Compiz-Fusion effects still have her giggle, and the fact that plugging in her camera allows her to email the pictures on it from the menu that comes up is a boon. She has a pcmcia->pci card that accepts an older Sierra Wireless just in case there's a problem with the CAT connection, and it's stupid simple to add minutes on since there's a script right on the desktop that, when ran, asks her for the new code from the scratch off card and dials it in for her.

[Plus]

I have all sorts of problems with various Linux distributions. While it's fun to try and fix them, it is time consuming and unproductive.

Ubuntu and others have covered basic functions on current hardware, but switching from XP on old machines to Linux is pain the ass.

Getting support is a lot harder than for Windows, too. Forums are active, true, but very often it's just newbies complaining to each other how this or that doesn't work.

I'm not even going to comment on "you have the command line prompt, what more do you want" warm welcome to Linux community.

>>>

It's all work in progress, I hope pretty soon we'll have a couple of really good, well supported distros for newcomers instead of hundreds of half baked ones. For now it looks like every nerd out there wants to start his own Linux movement and be nerdier than everyone else.

As much as I have respect for times when men were men and wrote their own drivers, I don't have time for it. I wish I had but I don't.

[Richard-BKK]

He Dave,

The Linux sub-forum is for Linux only, the OP's topic is about Steve Ballmer (Microsoft) who says that Linux has about 10 percent market share, and I have the idea that this is more accurate then statistics posted earlier.

[Richard-BKK]

He Plus,

What doesn't work? My experience is about the opposite, I probably can give you a list of hardware from USB modems to printers, graphic cards and controller boards which all worked well in Windows 2000/XP and have serious problems in Windows Vista... But still work fine with Linux?

[Plus]

What doesn't work?

You don't really want to deal with the list of all the things that don't work in this particular thread.

Instant messengers via proxy don't work at all, for example, on any distro. Not my personal problem, but a girl I tried to encourage to use Linux.

Compiz on old nvidia, on Suse. Works just fine in PclinuxOs. Pclos, on the other hand, rendered awfully bad fonts on CRT monitor.

Virtualbox periodically crashes the system on boot. So much for Linux stability.

Wine programs GUI disappear.

(those two are for running Windows programs in Linux)

A particular Canon printer doesn't work on any distro I tried, even when properly istalled. There are either ghostscript or "backend" problems.

Splash screen on boot will never come up anymore, even if boot options are specifically set to "silent". No big deal but looks very ugly.

On shutdown the console shifts outside of monitor range by about 10 characters, no splash either.

My favourite cursor theme leaves white boxes on the screen from time to time, or has screwed up colors in opensuse.

External hard drive won't mount automatically, and I use it for saving torrent files. Every time I start ktorrent before manually mounting the drive, it throws me as many errors as active torrents I have. Sometimes up to twenty pop up messages.

There's no proper usenet client in repositories. Pan is a joke.

Ubuntu LiveCD doesn't support some onboard VGA on Acer desktop, gives black windows. Very embarassing for a presentation of Linux power.

Support for wireless is very patchy. Some distros would work just fine, others won't budge.

>>>

I keep experimenting on my desktops, but with the notebook I gave up for now - Windows 7 works perfectly after some initial driver hickups. I will have to make a decision again when it expires next year. Buying a basic version without Aero would give me a peace of mind.

[Guest Reimar]

As this thread turned into an Linux thread, just beside of the title while the sub title points to Linux and Steve Balmer, I move this thread to the Linux forum.

///MOVED

[Prasert]

Roughly 15 years ago me and my colleagues completed a migration to a new operating system on about 500 computers. Sunday afternoon the client came in an he tested it with 10 others who knew their way around on a computer. It worked like a charm and they gave a green light.

Next morning 500 employees came in. The helpdesk went crazy.

Why? Because hardly any employee took the effort to a. read the instructions which were printed out and placed next to their keyboard and b. simply do what they were told on paper.

And this is an example of the majority of computer users. Not willing to learn anything and if one can't click around with a mouse, all hel_l breaks loose.

Apple has done a great job by choosing unix as the base for their operating system. Under the hood, it's still unix.

But also have a look at numerous other appliances - Maxtor's NAS drive runs a stripped down version of unix.

The dreambox (satellite receiver) runs a stripped down version of unix.

The majority of the internet services like DNS run on unix. And everybody uses a dns while spending time on the internet.

Your iPhone or iPod Touch - it's unix.

Thousands of people have developed parts of unix over the last decades, made improvements, wrote additions. All contributing to one of the most stable systems around.

So maybe the Microsoft market share is interesting in terms of sales, but one can't even compare it to the usage share of unix versus another operating system.

Is this still a public forum where things are discussed? or a corp ad site where the only corp speech law applies. If its the latter please close this tread also and my account.

Very good point. But an honest remark would get me banned again or my warning level raised. Breaking the forum rules will do that and also stepping on admin's toes as I experienced earlier. And there's no discussion possible about that- it's just accepting what the regime decides.

....I move this thread to the Linux forum

Ah, that's why I got the error message initially after replying. Little glitch in the software....

[dave_boo]

What doesn't work?

You don't really want to deal with the list of all the things that don't work in this particular thread.

Instant messengers via proxy don't work at all, for example, on any distro. Not my personal problem, but a girl I tried to encourage to use Linux.

Did the Windows instant messengers work on those same proxies? Did you try and use a different port?

Compiz on old nvidia, on Suse. Works just fine in PclinuxOs. Pclos, on the other hand, rendered awfully bad fonts on CRT monitor.

Same-same driver? Pclos uses fairly new drivers, SuSE is know for their older (and more stable releases). Did you try and build a new driver?

Virtualbox periodically crashes the system on boot. So much for Linux stability.

Did it actually take down the whole system? Or did it take down your x-server? I've last seen a kernel panic in ~2000...that's just about the only thing (hardware issues excepted) that will cause Linux to not respond. Other parts of the system may go bonkers, but you can always restart X and be back up and running. And where is Virtualbox set up to start at? AFAIK, there's no reason it should be taking down the kernel, unless you've disabled VT-X/AMD-V. Do you have any other examples of Linux crashes to warrant your statement disparaging Linux's stability?

Wine programs GUI disappear.

Perhaps because they're using Windows *.dll?

(those two are for running Windows programs in Linux)

A particular Canon printer doesn't work on any distro I tried, even when properly istalled. There are either ghostscript or "backend" problems.

Hardware manufacturer's issue....does it work in recent Windows Operating Systems?

Splash screen on boot will never come up anymore, even if boot options are specifically set to "silent". No big deal but looks very ugly.

What did you change? And at the risk of sounding like an arsehol_e, why do you need a non-ugly startup screen? Is there a tremendous amount of time you spend there?

On shutdown the console shifts outside of monitor range by about 10 characters, no splash either.

My favourite cursor theme leaves white boxes on the screen from time to time, or has screwed up colors in opensuse.

GPU manufacturer? Is it a known issue with their hardware/drivers?

External hard drive won't mount automatically, and I use it for saving torrent files. Every time I start ktorrent before manually mounting the drive, it throws me as many errors as active torrents I have. Sometimes up to twenty pop up messages.

Are you leaving them plugged in on a restart? Or are you trying to access them on your virtual machines? There's a lot of information that is not be provided.

There's no proper usenet client in repositories. Pan is a joke.

Ninan. SABnzbd.

Ubuntu LiveCD doesn't support some onboard VGA on Acer desktop, gives black windows. Very embarassing for a presentation of Linux power.

Hardware manufacturers problem. Let me guess.....Via Chrome.

Support for wireless is very patchy. Some distros would work just fine, others won't budge.

I noticed in the comment below that you had some driver hiccups on Windows 7. Do you blame Microsoft of the hardware manufacturers? Perhaps you need to step back and look at the hardware manufacturers....it's the same thing about your printer you listed earlier.

>>>

I keep experimenting on my desktops, but with the notebook I gave up for now - Windows 7 works perfectly after some initial driver hickups. I will have to make a decision again when it expires next year. Buying a basic version without Aero would give me a peace of mind.

From your 'problem' list, it appears that you want the stability of Linux (to include virus protection) while downloading stuff of questionable material. Furthermore, it appears that you like using n00buntu from your description of the forums visited.

Here's a wonderful idea, take the time it took you to learn your precious Windows and get with the program. I understand that as life goes on we take on more responsibilities, and thus have less time to devot to something as momentous as learning a new skill set, but anyone of decent attention span and intelligence can learn to operate a different operating system. Back in the day everything was typewriters and filing cabinents. Guess what happened to those secetaries after they brought in those primitive computers? They either learned the new system (which isn't all fancy GUI like it is now) or were out of their jobs. You, on the other hand, have a choice. Either learn your way around or stick to your Windows. The Linux community got to where it is now without people jumping on the bandwagon and complaining it's not Windows enough; it will continue marching forward and those Window dinosaurs will eventually die out.

Why don't I give you a list of what doesn't work with Windows.

A Lexmark printer....absolutely no dice and no drivers to be found.

An HP printer...ditto.

Games won't install.

Sound requires clicking on a "Yes, I actually f@cking plugged a cable into the headphone jack and want to use it, not alt-tab and miss part of the movie".

3ware card does not show up.

Hotplugging SATA drives results in yet another crash.

Bluetooth refuses to transfer files or even create a PAN.

Subtitles won't load on my divx rips (and yes I own the dvds).

Can not easily rip beforementioned dvds to a temp file and transcode them in a batch file.

Wireless constantly drops connection.

Latest driver updates (when I finally get them installed!) do not allow overclocking.

Backing up my ipod onto the harddrive (a simple dump of the filesystem) on a new install resulted in a bunch of funny named files that were only accessible by itunes. Amarok allowed me to get them back in order and filed correctly.

Boot up takes an inordinately long time; over a minute are the norm.

Shutdown is a hit or miss affair...sometimes after 5 minutes it becomes necessary to hold down the power button.

Speedstep only works from ~1200mhz up to 2500. Linux provides down to 800.

Sensors are not supported; there is no information except from the GPU and the CPU....and the GPU always reads at +80.

etc., etc., etc.

[Plus]

Instant messengers - of course they work through proxies on Windows.

Kopete or whatever else comes on Gnome doesn't as a matter of principle. Proxy support was promised in KDE4 but it's still not there.

Video driver for OpenSuse - legacy driver from Nvidia, recommended by OpenSuse itself, they have an official manual for it. I had a five page thread on their forum that got abandoned for the lack of progress.

Wine problem - Grabit started briskly, than it (or wine) killed my window decorations and disappeared. Now it sits in the system tray and responds to right clicks by the actual window never comes up.

Splash screen - I don't remember ever changing anything, I DO rememeber trying to get it back. The fact that I can't pisses me off far more than its absense. It should be there, needed or not. I don't have time to browse through thousands of boot related posts after all GUI and Wizard tools failed. Apparently at the X level every config option is fine.

Canon printer - it works in WinXP, and it serves three other XP machines. If it fails in Linux, everybody gets pissed, at me.

Virtualbox - no, it doesn't harm the kernel. It only stops desktop from loading. I can still boot into console and remove it manually. Or try to use Linux a few days later - it has a mind of its own and crashes appproximately on every other third boot.

Mouse - have no idea, got it from official KDE candy site. Green apparatus, works fine in OpenSuse but colors are not the same.

External drive - plugged in via USB, gets recognised by the system but won't mount despite automount option being set.

SABnbzd+ - installed fine but throws errors and refuses to work. Briefly searched for solutions but exact error message didn't bring any results and I gave up. Pclinuxos doesn't have all required/recommended packages in their repos, or they are called something different. Usenext client works fine initially but fails to download anything. There are SSL errors of some kind. There's still hellanzb to install, and Grabit to fix in that Wine, then there's Ninan. None of them are in the repos, so installation problems are practically guaranteed, and then they won't work for one reason or other.

Ubuntu and VGA onboard - I had to work on some other machine for a couple of hours, so I brought Ubuntu liveCD to play. No luck. Now I'm certainly in no position to recommend linux switch as there are possibly hundreds of the same spec machines there. I suspect Win7 will install just fine on them, btw.

On Win7 my problem was with video driver. The one I had on manufacturer CD worked but had to be reinstalled on every reboot. I downloaded latest driver from Intel website and it worked ever since without a glitch. Very straightforward procedure that should have been done from the start.

>>>>

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind fixing all these problems, it just takes enourmous amount of time and I won't wish it on anybody, let alone an average computer user, let alone on a Thai with rudimentary English skills.

Me, I do it just for kicks, just because I can. WinXP/Win7 already answer all my needs

[RKASA]

XP is pretty good because its been around for awhile now.  Some users fall into the trap of using apps that are window centric.  most have a sub in linux if effort is made.  Anyone willing to pay what looks to be about $300.00 US will be able to port there productivity apps (some) to win7.  but mostly they are going to be putting out funds for new apps with the excuss that they are inovative updates.  The biggest problem with windows is having the carpet pulled out from under your feet like clock work.  Learn to fish and never go hungry.

[raro]

I am a longtime computer user, must be about 20 years now. I consider myself an advanced user on various windows releases, actually my abilities on Windows 3.11 earned me a living as a computer technician some 14 years ago.

I have tried various Linux distributions over the years, namely SuSe, Ubuntu and some other I forgot which ones they were.

If I had one stand alone computer I might not consider anything MS again, but I was never able to make two computers talk to each other on a network. Again, I am familiar with terms such as DHCP, Host/Client etc. Looking for help in Linux fora and how-to-do webpages is either starting with Mr. Linus' revolutionary idea or straight into hard-chore tech talk that I did not understand whatsoever. This includes this board's Linux subforum where i used to ask (what I consider) simple questions and got complicated answers.

Taking into account that I run a business and not a computer research center I am happy to pay some 15,000 Baht per computer for OS and the basic MS office package as it is all I need in my business. It safes me long weekends and even wasted working time to solve problems that I do not have while working under Windows.

I am not aware of a Linux sub for Outlook 2007 which I consider a perfect e-mailing and CRM software. With Syncing.net I can synchronize all contacts on all computers within my network and even the files we are regularly working on in our team. Moreover, I can synchronize Outlook with my PDA, not sure if a similar solution is available under Linux. With my new Fritz!Box router and an additional application I can make now phone calls by clicking on the Outlook contact. If a call comes into my landline, the respective Outlook contact pops up. Linux anybody?

[OxfordWill]

the internet is the moderns worlds gateway to power, control, money, etc. It runs on unix. Understanding unix, then, is important. You dont get to understand unix running microsoft windows. Thats my take on things. As for Ballmer he is saying the same old things he always says.

[raro]

the internet is the moderns worlds gateway to power, control, money, etc. It runs on unix. Understanding unix, then, is important. You dont get to understand unix running microsoft windows. Thats my take on things. As for Ballmer he is saying the same old things he always says.

You are right, the internet runs on Unix. It somehow perfectly (perfectly enough for what I am using it for to be more precise) interfaces with my Windows environment and I do not have to learn or understand Unix to send e-mails and browse webpages. That's why I like windows. I can concentrate on my business and everything else is happening in some black box that I do not have to worry about.

[livinthailandos]

a lot of valid points that I see. But among those it just boils down to

1. What is the OS going to be used for, ( internet, email, media, Database, etc )

2. Does it have support / drivers for external products, printers, scanners, etc

3. Personal Preferance

4. Willing to learn something new or not

5. Cost. ( microsoft is a bit ding dong on this to may versions of the OS ) I dont mean xp, me, 7, vista, i mean starter edition, home, utimate seems to many prices

6. This is something microsoft will never get right, why does windows cost the same here in thailand as it does in the US, you can't seriously expect people to buy a real windows os license when its to expensive, this is why there are tons of copies

7. Linux is fine but considering trying to get wireless working still needs improvement

8. Linux does one thing that neither mac nor windows does at the moment it has a giant resportory of applications you can download for you desktop or server or labtop, mac my have an app store but if were actually talking about desktop, labtop, server linux has it beat out.

I would like to thank microsoft though for vista, if it hadn't been for vista I never would have tried linux and put linux on my labtop

[Plus]

Anyone willing to pay what looks to be about $300.00 US will be able to port there productivity apps (some) to win7.  but mostly they are going to be putting out funds for new apps with the excuss that they are inovative updates.  The biggest problem with windows is having the carpet pulled out from under your feet like clock work.  Learn to fish and never go hungry.

Actually for many it's easier to pay $300 than try to get Linux working.

Curiously enough, it's easier to have free linux programs running happily on Windows than to make them work on linux own distros.

I do like the idea of opening Synaptic and clicking apps and they get installed. But if they are not in the official repos, you are doomed to eternal life in a hel_l of a shell.

I remember my frist try at installing unofficial Canon driver on my first try with linux.

The Readme simply had to commands - make and install, that's all support that there was.

But in order to get that make working I had to download three-four packages it depends on, and no one tells you what they are, it's just hit and miss. After days of fuc_king around with it and no replies on the forum I gave up.

OpenSuse was more accomodating, but I got stuck with gs errors, and gave up. I still have bookmarked pages with printing and ghostscript troubleshooting but I doubt I will ever have time to study them. They are teasing me with simple perl script that throws errors, and it's perfectly readable, but the problem might be with permissions and parent script that calls on it.

It's so much fun trying to figure out why when the script returns 1 it doesn't get accepted by the driver. I feel like I can spend the rest of my life on installing one dumb printer and be happy doing it.

[Guest Reimar]

Why a Apple need a program named Parallels? And Linux as well just different name(forget the name and tired to search)? I mean for to run software which didn't exist for that OS's, standard software!

Because that OS's are not standard?!

Windows don't need such software because the programs which can exactly do what the Apple or Linux programs do existing in Windows.

Unix is excellent, no doubt! As OS for Mainframes pp!

Apple are excellent not doubt either! For that what they can do!

Linux are excellent as well, even no doubt!And again: for that what that OS can do!

Windows maybe not excellent in your eye's! But: it can do what all the other can do as well on an PC (not a Mainframe)! And can do even more!

Windows are not perfect, no doubt with that!

But: Linux and Apple are perfect? I doubt that!

The truth is that if someone want to work with Linux, need to start to learn again! But is that enough? I don't think so! And final that human will come back to Windows, because of the need to get work done!

Take you own post's here, I mean you, the linux guy's and see how many of you need to have Windows run as 2. system. Why, if everything is so perfect? And the same applies fir the Apple User's!

If you think that the nubers of running systems are incorrect, I really suggest you to go in offices, not one, a lot of them and start to count the systems running separated by OS and create your own statistic. Go to other user, but not to those you know, unknown users and check what they are running!

And after that you restart to think about the perfect system you runing! And also think about why so less humans using that perfect system because that systems ar not that perfect?

Cheers

[OxfordWill]

sure it interfaces with windows just fine. My point was one of understanding. If youre happy to rely on something you dont understand, thats fine. I mean it- its absolutely fine. I do that with cars.

[dave_boo]

Why a Apple need a program named Parallels? And Linux as well just different name(forget the name and tired to search)? I mean for to run software which didn't exist for that OS's, standard software!

Because that OS's are not standard?!

Windows don't need such software because the programs which can exactly do what the Apple or Linux programs do existing in Windows.

Unix is excellent, no doubt! As OS for Mainframes pp!

Apple are excellent not doubt either! For that what they can do!

Linux are excellent as well, even no doubt!And again: for that what that OS can do!

Windows maybe not excellent in your eye's! But: it can do what all the other can do as well on an PC (not a Mainframe)! And can do even more!

Windows are not perfect, no doubt with that!

But: Linux and Apple are perfect? I doubt that!

The truth is that if someone want to work with Linux, need to start to learn again! But is that enough? I don't think so! And final that human will come back to Windows, because of the need to get work done!

Take you own post's here, I mean you, the linux guy's and see how many of you need to have Windows run as 2. system. Why, if everything is so perfect? And the same applies fir the Apple User's!

If you think that the nubers of running systems are incorrect, I really suggest you to go in offices, not one, a lot of them and start to count the systems running separated by OS and create your own statistic. Go to other user, but not to those you know, unknown users and check what they are running!

And after that you restart to think about the perfect system you runing! And also think about why so less humans using that perfect system because that systems ar not that perfect?

Cheers

Name one Windows only app that doesn't have an Open Source equivalent......granted there's interia from simpletons who can't relearn the apps from Windows, but with a few exceptions there's little that the closed source world offers that isn't matched or exceeded by Open Source.

I'll admit I dual boot. That's not Linux's fault; it's the fault of game manufacturers. I don't have to dual boot for Id games (bless Carmack's heart) nor Unreal Tournament games. There are others that I do have to dual boot for.

I love how Windows proponents attack Linux for not being standard. There's no reason for Linux distros to be standardised. We already have a dumbed down operating system for the unwashed masses....it's called Windows! Other operating systems (various Linux distros, Haiku, OpenSolaris, OSX, BSDs, etc) are designed for those who don't need to have a dumbed down security hole ridden operating system.

Your argument that an abuse of monopoly powers is alright because it standardises everything is laughable. Which instant messenger to use? There's many choices. Which photo editing software to use? There's many choices. Etc.

What happens if you have an old Sparc box? Want to run Windows on it? Too bad, unless you can find a old version of NT 4.0(IIRC the last to support non-Intel processors). What about PowerPC? Same story. ARM architecture? Same story. Tegra? Same story. What you mean to say is that Windows is able to do what all the other can do as well on an (x86) PC (not a Mainframe)! And can do even more less on different platforms!

Most everyone I know that has made the switch stays with their new operating systems. Perhaps the mentally deficient, who possibly through a substandard intelligence level are unable to learn something new, are those who return to Windows. It's apparent that as a shill for Microsoft you are very comfortable in your enviroment. That enviroment includes other Windows users. Fine. It would be anethical for me to rag on your choice to stay with an inferior operating system when the whole point of Open Source is CHOICE.

And we finally come to the basis of your argument "...create your own statistic.". I do believe that people have pointed this out earlier. Why do you, as a MODERATOR, promote such behaviour. If I were to take a sampling of my own household, you know what I'd find? 2x Linux routers. 1x Linux NAS. 2x Linux Desktops. 2x Linux laptops. Now 1 of those desktops and one of those laptops are dual-boots, strictly for games. So, even if I consider those "Window machines", that means that I have 5/7 Linux penetration. Ergo, 72% of the world uses Linux!

No OS is perfect, since they're all created by imperfect humans. However, stupid users resistant to change is more likely the problem than issues with the operating systems.

[stoffel]

Interesting discussion here. Interesting in a way that every time a minority admit to be better than all others.

And that's the truth: Linux and Mac users are just a minority compare to the masses.

It's nice to see that a member of that minority is telling: ' However, stupid users resistant to change is more likely the problem than issues with the operating systems.'!

dave boo@

As I read the post, the stupid users you're talking about are the masses of the Windows users. In that way I've to admit for myself that I'm happy to be one of that stupid user!

Also interestingly in your post is that you didn't name your contra hand but point that he is an MODERATOR.

First at all in this is: Using capital letter in the way you did, shows that you're an egoistic and egocentric person who didn't accept the meaning from differently thinking person. The same is also to see in your other posts in this topic.

Secondly, as I read the post of the moderator, regarding the statistic, he clearly wrote to check with UNKNOWN persons or users what they use because from the person you know, every info’s are subjective and never counting! Isn't the word Ignorance the one which describes your written words?

Did you know what objectivity and subjectivity is meaning?

So, you're not an egoistic and egocentric person only, you’re a subjective person as well, what is shown with your own words very well!

And it's very interesting to see how you see others who didn't comply with you way: Perhaps the mentally deficient, who possibly through a substandard intelligence level are unable to learn something new.........

You know, your whole post is nothing else as an accusation against a specific person, a moderator on this forum! I really doubt that you know that person in reality same as you're just a fiction in the cyberspace! Reading this your post and others before, shown that you're like a blindfolded horse which is able only to go the way he learned. And as blindfolded horse you are also unable to accept that this world in not about what you like only.

Mange tack.

[RKASA]

Yap, not going to make a linux user out of a winfan, but don't need to ether.    The whole main point is MS is looking at the fact that Linux users are  growing in numbers faster by each year and its Ballmer himself that said so.  Linux is in fact easyer and more useful to more people everyday.  No one will be required to use it. 

[raro]

sure it interfaces with windows just fine. My point was one of understanding. If youre happy to rely on something you dont understand, thats fine. I mean it- its absolutely fine. I do that with cars.

You hit the nail on the head! If I need a car, I go to the shop and buy one. Let's call that the Windows Way of doing things. The Linux Way would be buying bits and pieces and screwing them together in your backyard. Certainly an interesting hobby, but as I run a business I need stuff that works out of the box as I am not into spending long nights tweaking drivers. I rather spend that time for socializing. Sorry for using this word in a nerd thread.

Name one Windows only app that doesn't have an Open Source equivalent......granted there's interia from simpletons who can't relearn the apps from Windows, but with a few exceptions there's little that the closed source world offers that isn't matched or exceeded by Open Source.

Outlook 2007 springs to mind. Anything equivalent available? That can synchronize with a mobile phone and with an additional easy-to-use software (set-up time less than 5 minutes) synchronizes its database across as many computers as you want? That has integrated e-mail, calendar, CRM functions? Let me know and I'll give it a try!

Most everyone I know that has made the switch stays with their new operating systems. Perhaps the mentally deficient, who possibly through a substandard intelligence level are unable to learn something new, are those who return to Windows. It's apparent that as a shill for Microsoft you are very comfortable in your enviroment. That enviroment includes other Windows users. Fine. It would be anethical for me to rag on your choice to stay with an inferior operating system when the whole point of Open Source is CHOICE.

I do not get your point. As a Windows user I also have choice and can install whatever applications I want. I do not consider myself mentally deficient by choosing an operating system that works out of the box and is instantly in wider parts understandable than any Linux distri I came across so far. Again, I earned a living with my Windows 3.11 skills some 14 years ago so I cannot be all that dumb what computers are concerned.

No OS is perfect, since they're all created by imperfect humans. However, stupid users resistant to change is more likely the problem than issues with the operating systems.

ok, I take this bait. As I said earlier, I gave Linux several chances in the past. None of them were successful by any means. Always something didn't work properly, be it the networking, the printer, the feature I used in the equivalent windows program that is not available under Linux andandand...and after MANY weekends wasted I decided to do what the others did who spent those weekends at the beach: I installed windows.

[Richard-BKK]

All answers are hard to answer, which phone did you use? for example you need to install Nokia PC Suite to communicate to a Internet modem capable telephone, this program running takes 4 to 7 megabyte of fiscal memory of your computer. Under Linux WVdial or equal programs, are capable of creating the same direct connection, even with the use of a full Firewall protection, in less then 350kb???

THe world is sick and confused what you need to run things,.

On my free little shit not hard drive early netbooks I can read and write Office 2007 format files, since the 2007 free update.. this is a free MS office replacement suite, which supports all languages... Thai included including spellcheck...

[Plus]

I'm trying to get usenet client to work on Linux and so far there's no success.

Usenet was developed long long time ago, way before Internet with www and http was invented. There are lots of windows clients for accessing it but only one, crippled linux program - Pan.

Pan does only three connections to a server while any other program does up to twenty. That puts a great limit on potential download speed.

Pan does not support secure SSL encryption. In practical terms it means that my ISP sniffs out my download pockets and throttles my speed. Windows clients with SSL set to OFF, connecting to the same server, download at ridiculous 3kbps. With SSL at ON the speed is 3,000 kbps.

Downloading with PAN is like being on 1995 14kbps modem by comparison.

And this one and only usenet client for Linus has absolutely no documentation or support.

There are several other linux clients, but they can't be arsed to make themselves compatible with hundreds of linux distros. From their point of view - if it worked fine in 2005 on Fedora, my job is done. People who invented "SuperduperLinux2009" have to port it themselves. And those people can't be arsed, too.

Who can blame them - linux is all about leaching off some enthusiasts unpaid work. They have absolutely no obligations to provide me with working software, many of them have no intentions to do so, too. They can always pull "lazy user" excuse. It's a lot easier to blame users than to make sure your program works.

>>>>

Everyone I know uses some kind of instant messenger. In Thailand is MSN by default, many use Yahoo, too. These two finally learned to talk to each other, I heard. But not to Linux users on office networks.

Every office network I know runs a proxy for Internet access, in the name of big brother control. Interestingly the most popular choice is probably Squid that runs on Linux.

But that's not my point. My point is that there are no Linux instant messengers that can connect through a proxy. I think it's possible to connect if you get the proxy and router set to open certain ports to use certain protocols, but that means you have to go to IT bosses and tell them that you want these special privileges because you want to chat to friends on non-authorised, self-installed operating system.

That's just ridiculous.

>>>>

Linux will always be a platform for enthusiasts to express themselves, not for general public who want to use computers to get job done.

When people say that Internet runs of Unix they are of course right. They forget to mention that those Unix servers are not free. Linux distros are just a byproduct of that effort (a very well paid effort, too) so they will never be as good as Unix servers themselves. Linux distros are bones, left overs. Users are meant to figure out how to make them work all by themselves.

It's like building a working computer out of parts salvaged at a dump site. It might do some basic work, if you put a lot of effort in it, but it's not guaranteed.

Many of users have very low requirements, granted, so working browser and Open Office could be enough, but any step out of line and you are on your own.

Nerds would say - great, I'm finally free of shackles of the great satan Bill, but the users will be thinking - $300 is just a pocket change comparing to all the troubles this "freedom" will bring me.

>>>

Bottom line - Linux is not for users, it's for geeks to have a lot of fun, and I don't think trying to migrate from geeks to users will bring any long term success. I don't think it should be a goal at all.

There was never meant to be a working relationship between developers and users. It was all setup wrong from the start.